Nothing can ever be 100%, but it can be better and a problem that can be solved.
Ever hear of NP / exponential problems?
When I read news articles about governments and other groups pressuring ISPs to shutdown web sites because of their politically incorrect content, I hardly ever hear a peep about it here.
Really? Ive heard a peep about it here. etoy, the bush parody sites, etc. Open your eyes.
But when a group of taxpayers or a legislative body wants filters on public computers in libraries or schools in order to keep their tax dollars from being used to view porn, all holy hell breaks loose!
Yes, because the censorship of government funded public institutions like a library, is ILLEGAL and UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Period. Read up on law.
The reaction is as if the US government sold the internet to M$ and only M$ operating systems were allowed to connect to it
Please lay off the crack when reading the above. (just a tip). That is nothing similiar to the issue at hand.
I certainly wouldn't rank the ability to view porn very highly on my list of must have freedoms. It's not essential for the operation of a free society
Hmm.. you havent read any of this discussion either. This isnt ABOUT P()RN. This is about legitimate sites getting blocked in the name of porn, and government paying for and requiring such blocking.
If the people and their legislative representatives of a city, county or state wish to restrict such material in public places, it's in their right to do so
True. But filters do NOT ban only p0rn. In fact, they ban a whole lot of other legitimate material. Which is why this discussion is taking place, and why they are illegal.
In that light, I think Rob better change the icon with the black tape over his mouth to one with a nude woman with black tape over her breasts and pelvic area.
Hey, that would be cool. I'll make an icon.
I've also read a lot of negative comments about Utah, members of the LDS church, and other people that live in that state. Not only in this discussion but others on Slashdot.
Yeah, the mormons seem to piss off a fair number of people.
Most of which are false stereotypes that just prove the ignorance of the person making the statement. I lived in the Salt Lake area for a while, and sure it has some of the same problems that other metro areas have: drug & alcohol abuse, stripper clubs, gangs, etc. However, they are not on the scale of other cities and IMHO, the positives greatly outnumber the negatives. The state has consistently been ranked a good place to live, and I would agree that it is probably one of the few decent places to live in the US. But hey, guess what, if you don't like their quirky alcohol laws, local customs, or anything else, you don't have to live there. Move to an area that you like and get a life.
Amen. To each his own. Just dont try forcing moral views on ME through law (which is what mormons try to do fairly often that annoys people)
Really.. please sir, would you mind providing some facts to back this up?
Lets see, the economy is better than ever before. The crime rates are lower than theyve been in decades, lower teen pregnancy, safer cars, roads, etc. etc. etc...
Yet, MY GOD! AMERICA IS GOING TO HELL!!
Please, before you try and push your moralist views on everyone, at least attempt to make some semblance of a point.
Right. Its a filter on a government funded public library. Which means it is illegal to have filter software there. Period. Get a clue and read about the subject and prior rulings by the supreme court and various other courts.
But censorware in libraries is NOT controlling information
Whoah, what planet are you from? Censoreware IS ALL ABOUT CONTROL! Its whole is existance is to control your web viewing so that objectionable content is not shown. (And a lot of non objectional too)
While this may be fine at home, in a government funded public institution like a library this is not legal.
but at the present time it may be the only practical one
Nope, its not even pratical. Its is, however, illegal and a violation of our constitution.
Thus, we are either stuck with lowest-common-denominator libraries, those which offend the fewest people, or taking libraries private, which is not presently practical.
And please note these libraries must conform to law. Im sure in the deep south of caronlina the majority public would love to censor all kinds of things. However, again, this is unconstiutional.
Your average mormon, while generally classified as republican in their political views, are generally a very practical/moderate group of people
Wow, webster changed the definition of practical while I was asleep. Arresting a video proprietor for renting R rated movies qualifies as practical. Man, i'd hate to see them upset and fanatical
I wasn't so much talking about their religous (sp?) practices as their view of the world in general...
- This world was created by a god that was once a man like me, except he was good.
- The gospel was restored to this world when god and jesus came down and gave a teenage boy instructions on his religious choice.
- Followed by numerous visits by angels to return keys of the preisthood and locate golden plates hid under a rock.
- This world will be burned by fire at the end of armageddon and all the wicked people (not good jesus lovers) will burn baby burn.
- After they die, they will be resurrected with new, imortal bodies, and then, if they are really good and have done their part, BECOME GODS! (i love that part) just like the god that created this world and a buttload of others.
- Oh, in heaven you can have lots of wives. No pesky laws to get in the way there;)
Sorry, but I think you shoulda stuck to practices.. *grin*
In general (one always has to speak generally) they are neither the type who wants to have the government pull completely out of our lives, no the ones who wants it to baby them through their life.
**Side observation** How dare you call atheists a religion!!;) ** End Side Observation **
This is NOT a constitutional or first amendment issue. They're not trying to filter everyone's connections. Whether or not you like it, they do have the right to attach conditions to the money that the state gives to libraries.
WRONG! This is a government funded institution, and as such, it cannot implement censoring software affecting all, and have the government pay for it. Sorry, this IS a constitutional issue.
Please tell me which links I may click on. Or better yet, write a program to do it.
You can click on any of the big newsites, any of the conservative christian sites, etc. But if you start accessing sites where anyone can post comments and links (like here) or where questionable content or links to it might exists, then that YOUR PEROGATIVE. its not the governments issue to make sure EVERY SINGLE PAGE ONT HE INTENET is clean and pure and snow. Dont be rediculous.
Dude, I'm someone you don't even know, and you want to go to hell solely because of me?
Your comments are enough to persuade me;) Besides, I dont beleive in hell, so its an empty threat *grin*
But don't base your knowledge of Jesus simply because you disagree with me and stereotype all christians based on such. Maybe we see a side to this issue that you don't that you should.
I was religious for many years when I was younger, then I grew up and realized it was all manamde (in my opinion).
Gee, I'm just expressing my free speech and you want to go to hell because I do that? I thought you defended everyone's right to free speech?
I do, and its ME going to hell damnit! and i'll do what I want!!;)
You know that it happens all the time on the internet and that even they send it via email and you'll even find it doing simple searches
They send LINKS to it. Dont go there. And You only get that kinda mail if you have been to kinky sites, or posted your email address in a public place like usenet and such.
You have to admit that it's pops up in all these places even if you don't want it. Tell me how it should be stopped.
No, i dont see any of this Magical Pron that pops up all over your browser. Neither does anyone else. What are you searching for? nookie? (oops mispelled cookie)
Don't you care about the rights of others being trampled. Don't you care about free speech?
Yes. Hence my opposition to filters in government instiutions.
I can't remember his name, but a serial killer (killed only women) said that he started down the path to it because of pornography. Others in a similar situation have admitted this. Even I have gone down the spiral. The point is that not everyone can handle things.
The point is, some people have severe sexual pychosis and pathogenic problems. This is not a cause of pornography, these individuals were sick before they even look at their first nekked women.
Religious groups love to tout that one in a million individual that wigs out and blames it on pr0n because they can weild this as a nice big stick to get people to think their way. 'Look at porn to much and you will KILL! you will RAPE!'
Sorry, but people who do these things are going to do them anyway, as they are mentally disturbed, and not just porn parusers.
What about the hundreds and hundreds of millions of people that view porn and dont experience any negative effects or notice many postive ones (in relation to their love life, etc.). Do you hear paster john teach about these incidents? No, and thats the point. If you are a devout religious fundamentalist type, you only see things as they fit into your perspective. From such a viewpoint, that one serial killer, and that one rapists are more than enough justification to infridnge on free speach and illegalize porn.
Even I have gone down the spiral.
What, you started stalking women with intent to rape them? Thought about brutally murdering people as you watched nekked people cavort?
Agreed, I was being sarcastic.. I dont believe this stuff, obviously, so I take a rather ill view of it now. My appologies.
That said, most of what you are quoting is standard anti-LDS stuff and three out of the four main anti-LDS websites, and like I just said -- the truth should be out there.
True, its considered anti mormon, but did you even read the links? No, because mormons are told not to even view anti mormon literature unless you want to tarnish your testimony. The fact is, all of those sites are based on fact. They present a view strongly oriented towards contradiction, but that is because most of those people dont like the church and its censoring tatics and beleifs.
Also, one of those sites is actually an article from a mormon historian who wrote that article while he was a history professor at BYU. He got tired of the church leaders always wanting him to present ONLY the positive aspects of the church, and wanted him to remove the 'warts' from all his work. This is fact. This upset this person, and he was excommunicated for not doing so. THis is also fact.
The church shortly thereafter starting closing up the archives, as many of the historians either left the church or were excommunicated for their work. The term 'Studying yourself out of the church' was thus coined and used to warn members that questioning the church and its leaders is a BAD THING. To summarize, anti-mormon as deemed by church leaders is a tool used to prevent evaluation of damaging fact.
There are some truly anti mormon sites, the god makers and such, which are completely false and full of lies, but the sites are not such, and much of what is factual history has been labeled as anti-mormon by church leaders simply because it is a 'wart' as you put it.
So, until you realize what exactly you are following, we really cant have much more of a discussion on this topic, as you will not look into it further, or will just believe what is told by the leaders, without a thourough excursion in the true history surrounding the church.
Well, the official reason the church gave for closing the archives is that when someone is new in the faith, they shouldn't have to confronted with all of the troubling questions right away. As you can tell, I disagree with the official reasoning
Well, be carefull what you say. Open disagreement with church leaders is grounds for excommunication. (seriously.. check the church handbook of instruction if you doubt me)
here are usually two sides to every story.
Yes, and unfortunately, much of some sides of the story are not recognized or tolerated by the church.
Problem is, attacks and counterattacks don't necessarily tell us what the true story is. Nor does ranting on/. about it.
True, but I always feel an obligation towards truth.
In fact just the other day, I felt violated when I clicked on a link on Slashdot and got some nasty picture of some guy's butt.
You should know better than to click on any link in a users comment. that is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between porn being force down to your browser. You are bending and distorting issues based on your religious agenda.
you should add a mantra of "Parental involvement doesn't work" either and parents can't be there all the time!!!
Exactly, which is why filters wont work, and if your kids want porn, they will get it. period. Deal with it, and spend your time teaching your children about moral responsiblity and your beliefs, but dont start fumbling in vain for non solutions.
The only thing that will stop it is to stop it at the sending side, not the receiving side
Yeah. Cars cause too many deaths. Lets ban cars. Doctors cause too many malpractice deaths, lets ban those. Cosmetic surgery is not essential and is dangerous. Lets ban that. Cmon, get a grip. Thats the most absurd proposition youve said yet. We all know porn isnt going anywhere, and there is nothing you can do about it. It would be a violation of your constitution to rule otherwise.
I mean we stop pornography from being on roadside billboards, why can't it be stopped on the internet???
Billboards are a public, PUSH type of interface into peoples eyes. The internet is a PASSIVE, you request what you want, private interface. Its not even remotely smiliar. Get a clue.
Don't ya think this is one of those times where Government regulation would make sense (to stop it on the sending side)?
No you fundie, I dont think so.
There definately needs to be some sort of regulation because it's way out of hand.
Get off the net then if you so concerned. Create a filter that only ALLLOWS certain sites, like your religious homepage. Cmon, this is your MORAL issue, not the governments issue. Get a clue.
What you are proposing is to just not do anything and let everyone including the kids just gorge themselves on it.
No, what I am proposing is that parents get more involved and pay attention to what their kids USE the internet for. This is a much more effective and meaningfull solution, whereas filtering is nothing but a flase sense of security causing more harm than good.
That's just what the devil wants. Be proud of yourself for preaching this and pray the Lord have mercy on you.
Im gonna rant here, but fuck jesus, if heaven is full of people like you id rather roast in hell.
I learned the finer points of atomic weapon design from the library back when I was 13-14. The book was about the manhattan project, and another book about extensive research one jouranlist did into the US atomic weapons projects. My dad worked at rocky flats, and had heard of this journalists book and such, and confirmed that many of the designs are very close to what is used, with the real sensitive information being the 'exact' milling of the nulcear pits (shape, size, position, etc of the various layers).
This was all very inlightening to me, and in fact, I learned a lot from it. Could I build a bomb? No way, atomic weapons are incredibly hard to construct. Logistics alone are a nightmare.. so , id ont know what your comment about kids knowing how to build bombs has to do with any of this, but thats my two cents on the issue.
As for porn, kids will get it if they want it. Parents who beleive filters in the library will prevent their kids innocence from being tainted are ridiculously naive.
Filters are not even a sub optimal solution to this issue.
Parental involvement, site histories, profiles, etc. But filtering is nothing but bad news and illegal for government funded institutions.
If you really want a filtered library, go pay for one yourself.
I agree 100%, but the fact is that the Mormon religion is a cult.
This isnt true. They *might* be classified a benign cult, which is called something else, a meme or something like that... But cults cause harm to their members, and mormons, as a whole, are happier and healtier than the average american. This disqualifies them as a true cult.
I grew up in Gilbert AZ which is like Salt Lake City Junior. Evey public school has a mormon church either right next to it, or across the street.
I have relatives in Gilbert, and your statement doesnt mean much considering how incredibly tiny this little twon is.
very day while waiting for the school bus they would try to indoctrinate me. I cannot tell you how many copies of the book of Moromon I have thrown away. If you do not conform, they make life a PITA for you.
Mormons are VERY BIG on recruiting, after all, if you beleived you held the keys to everlasting life and happiness, wouldnt you share that info? Your experience does seem a bit extreme. I know many mormons and that level of persistance is rather rare.
I was in class in high school and a Mormon was preeching to me and I flat out told him ot leave me alone. I WAS SENT TO DETENTION
Did you tell him to 'shut tha fuck up?' I think there is more to this than just.. 'leave me alone'
hese Morman missionaries wonder why I am so hostile when they come calling... ONCE A WEEK
Thats an exagerration. I can guarantee they do not call you once per week.
I just consider it extreme.. and mebbe a few other people out there..
As for what other religions beleive, I dont know..
The word of wisdom is definately good practice, in fact, It was instituted far before we knew about the bad effects of tobacco and drinking (health wise) and was definately a boon to ones health.
The mormon history is full of juicy bits like that, unfortunately the church has sealed all its historical documents (wonder why..) aside form those already widely in print...
The church continually refines and alters history so that it appears in a better light. This has happened since its foundation, why expect anything different now?
This is your montra. Congratulations. It has been said over and over, wise one.
Just making sure, it seems many people conviantly ignore this fact.
Now for real wisdom, just how do you stop it?
You cannot stop pornography. It is not possible. You can try and limits your childrens exposure to it, but again, if they want it, they will get it. Period. You would have to be with them every moment of every day to ensure otherwise.
Anyway, filtering may not stop it all, but it does at least stop a lot. A more correct statement would be that filters don't stop all pornography.
And filter many good and legitimate sites. Again, these are government funded institutions, and cannot implement censoring software pandering to certain religious agendas, and have the government pay for it.
Well, at least see what you preach - which is just as the devil preaches.
Huh? What does that comment mean?
But, wake up, it's not. It's not just free speach, it's about whether they have the right to force their speach on you.
This isnt about forcing pornography on someone. This is about the individuals rite to view internet content as they see fit. If you wish to restrict your childs viewing habbits, choose an effective method like histories, monitoring, etc.. Filters are no where near a good solution to this and cause much harm overall.
If you don't want to hear what someone says you just don't listen, but what about when they setup a megaphone outside your house and preach their filth day and night
What tha hell does this have to do with anything?? This isnt about PUSHING CONTENT on people, its about unfettered access to information.
It's the same with the internet, whether you want to listen or not, they push their speech on you. Would you like it if a fundamentalist constantly setup a megaphone outside your house?
This is completely ignorant and unfounded. What are you trying to say here??
You get porn on the internet whether you're looking for it or not. It must be stopped
That is bull. Its a fact. No one comes out and and forces you onto sex sites?!? Dont be rediculous.
Don't you believe in freedom of religion? Does that mean they can force their religion on you whether it be good or bad?
Yes, and they shouldnt be able to force anything on you. Which is exactly what this issue is about. Religious conservatives wanting to implement censoring software in government funded institutions based on religious or moral bias.
Pornography does ruin lives.
Again, thats your viewpoint. It has harmed some, yes, and it has helped some. Guns ruin lives, cars ruin lives, make a statement that pertains to this issue please.
I'd also with to stop the pornography, but you won't lift a finger to help. You just tout your "filters don't work" montra.
Im saying that filters are not the issue, parental involvement and other options are a solution, but NOT filtering.
Holy generalizations Batman! 'You people?' This must be some sort of personal crusade for you or something.
No, i just am amazed at how vehemently some people beleive something without any fact which can be blatantly disproven by fact. Cults, religions, etc. There are always aspects of the above which defy all reasoning. I will never understand. Perhaps because I lack 'faith'.
As for your question, all of the logic above has factual and personally percieved backing, so I am very confident that it is correct.
Well, I am glad they dont make fact based on your feelings.
The truth is, there is no evidence to support your claims, and some to the contrary. It has often been suggested and even mildly proven (no one searches this to much depth) that the extremely conservative upbringing towards sex which occurs in settings such as SOME fundamentalist homes and other very restrictive atmospheres FOSTERS the kind of sexual abberations that sexual predators and serial killers exhibit. This is no means the cause of the majority of these crimes, nor even a fair amount, but there is eveidence that many have been caused by this type of repression, and the damaged mentality of the perpetrators.
Anyway, if you could provide me with your facts, that you read and hold dear as to these assumptions id be more than glad to look at them. Please do not send the 'So and so grew up and got addicted to pornography and then became a serial killer.. ' i am quite familiar with these religious skews on events, and the truth is they are biased and distort fact.
Please, oblige me.
No way! I am the first to admit that it is not the sole evil destroying the moral character. There are many more ways - this world has plenty!
Ok, good. I misunderstood you then.
Pornography, indecency, smut, immorality... call it what you like - they are all related. And yes, they are having a negative effect on marriages in this country
They also have a good effect. Which is also proven. When I mentioned sex as a factor for many divorces, it is LACK of GOOD sex. And instructional videos, dirty videos, etc. all have a place in SOME american homes to add pleasure to sex lives. To suggest that pornogrpahy (which I am assuming you define as graphic sexual content in any shape or form) as nothing but evil is wrong.
It does cause some ills, that I agree with. And there are some forms of pornography that are simly disgusting and perverse, IMHO, but they are never the less covered under the rights of the constiution.
I'm sorry I scare you.:( Its not you, per se, as I imagine you are a decent person, but your attitude. But I wont tell you what to believe, so i'll leave it at that.
True. However, LDS folks also believe in upholding, honoring, and sustaining the law.Which means that when push came to shove and every appeal through the courts had been exhausted, the choice was given to the one person who had the authority to make the decision -- the president of the LDS church at that time -- a man named Wilford Woodruff. According to his journals, he saw in "a vision" what would happen if the church continued to follow and defend polygamy, vs. what would happen if the practice were abandoned. Hmm.. it took a vision from god to notice that when the government says 'Quit polygamy or we disband your religion' they mean what they say. Interesting. Also interesting is the fact that after polygamy was outlawed, and the church leaders forsook the practice in public, they themselves (including woodruf) continued to proactice it in secret. he was given knowledge by God, and the right to make the decision, which he did, ending the practice. He also stated that if God had said "continue", he would have obeyed God even knowing he was in violation of the law. Ahh, perhaps thats why he kept on doing it in secret. Thus, anybody attempting to perform a plural marriage after he said "stop" would be violating their sacred covenants. True, but those married to multiple wives beforehand were exempt apparently. This is all fact, its even in the church history, which the church has repeatedly censored and modified since its publication. Ever wonder why the church sealed up all its historical documents a few years back? The historians at BYU kept finding juicy tidbits like that, and others such as multiple versions of the first vision, correlations between josephs joining the Masons and the changes in the endowment ritual. Swearing to die by disembowlment, sliced throat, and something else (i forget at the time) if you broke the secret to the endowment? Oh, and dont forget that after the mormons were run out of missouri, the endowment contained an oath to 'swear vengance upon this nation and its leaders' until the blood of the saints was redeemed. Very interesing. No wonder the mormon church is one of the most censor happy instiutions.. Cant have stuff like that getting out.. Check the following for reference materials: http://members.aol.com/VeilW orker/endowment.index.htmlhttp://www.xmission.com/~count ry/reason/mormhist.htmhttp://www.irr.org/mit/default.html If I seem a little antagonistic, its because I was a mormon (born and raised) for many years, and then I find out about this stuff which the church so convieniantly hides and censors.
Nope, I'm just very disenchanted with them over some insane issues in the past.
Yeah, my GOD, they did their best to stop that law deeming pornagraphy ILLEGAL! That rape causing evil that it is. Cant they see that its breaking up families all across america and causing rapes everywhere?!?!?
Because libraries are GOVERNMENT funded public entities. And a moral group cannot decide to implement censoring filters based on religious or moral beliefs and have the government pay for it!
Slashdot Mirror
http://CubicMeterCrystal. com/fib/image/tape_girl_icon.jpg
Allright Robman, by popular request she is the new censorship icon!!!
;P~
Nothing can ever be 100%, but it can be better and a problem that can be solved.
Ever hear of NP / exponential problems?
When I read news articles about governments and other groups pressuring ISPs to shutdown web sites because of their politically incorrect content, I hardly ever hear a peep about it here.
Really? Ive heard a peep about it here. etoy, the bush parody sites, etc. Open your eyes.
But when a group of taxpayers or a legislative
body wants filters on public computers in libraries or schools in order to keep their tax dollars from being used to view porn, all holy hell breaks loose!
Yes, because the censorship of government funded public institutions like a library, is ILLEGAL and UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Period. Read up on law.
The reaction is as if the US government sold the internet to M$ and only M$ operating systems were allowed to connect to it
Please lay off the crack when reading the above. (just a tip). That is nothing similiar to the issue at hand.
I certainly wouldn't rank the ability to view porn very highly on my list of must have freedoms. It's not essential for the operation of a free society
Hmm.. you havent read any of this discussion either. This isnt ABOUT P()RN. This is about legitimate sites getting blocked in the name of porn, and government paying for and requiring such blocking.
If the people and their legislative representatives of a city, county or state wish to restrict such material in public places, it's in their right to do so
True. But filters do NOT ban only p0rn. In fact, they ban a whole lot of other legitimate material. Which is why this discussion is taking place, and why they are illegal.
In that light, I think Rob better change the icon with the black tape over his mouth to one with a nude woman with black tape over her breasts and pelvic area.
Hey, that would be cool. I'll make an icon.
I've also read a lot of negative comments about Utah, members of the LDS church, and other people that live in that state. Not only in this discussion but others on Slashdot.
Yeah, the mormons seem to piss off a fair number of people.
Most of which are false stereotypes that just prove the ignorance of the person making the statement. I lived in the Salt Lake area for a while, and sure it has some of the same problems that other metro areas have: drug & alcohol abuse, stripper clubs, gangs, etc. However, they are not on the scale of other cities and IMHO, the positives greatly outnumber the negatives. The state has consistently been ranked a good place to live, and I would agree that it is probably one of the few decent places to live in the US. But hey, guess what, if you don't like their quirky alcohol laws, local customs, or anything else, you don't have to live there. Move to an area that you like and get a life.
Amen. To each his own. Just dont try forcing moral views on ME through law (which is what mormons try to do fairly often that annoys people)
Please lay off the aCiD...
There was not a single fact in that whole rant. There is plenty to gripe about this issue, and you managed to miss every single oppourtunity.
My commendations..
Really.. please sir, would you mind providing some facts to back this up?
Lets see, the economy is better than ever before. The crime rates are lower than theyve been in decades, lower teen pregnancy, safer cars, roads, etc. etc. etc...
Yet, MY GOD! AMERICA IS GOING TO HELL!!
Please, before you try and push your moralist views on everyone, at least attempt to make some semblance of a point.
Right. Its a filter on a government funded public library. Which means it is illegal to have filter software there. Period. Get a clue and read about the subject and prior rulings by the supreme court and various other courts.
Please be more vague. We understand you.
But censorware in libraries is NOT controlling information
Whoah, what planet are you from? Censoreware IS ALL ABOUT CONTROL! Its whole is existance is to control your web viewing so that objectionable content is not shown. (And a lot of non objectional too)
While this may be fine at home, in a government funded public institution like a library this is not legal.
but at the present time it may be the only practical one
Nope, its not even pratical. Its is, however, illegal and a violation of our constitution.
Thus, we are either stuck with lowest-common-denominator libraries, those which
offend the fewest people, or taking libraries private, which is not presently practical.
And please note these libraries must conform to law. Im sure in the deep south of caronlina the majority public would love to censor all kinds of things. However, again, this is unconstiutional.
No its not heresey, but it still sucks ass.
I want a free Mathematica for my linux distro and I want the code so I can see how those wizards did it.
Hmm.. perhaps with enough amphetamine I could code Tuxmatica.
*ponder ponder...*
Your average mormon, while generally classified as republican in their political views, are generally a very practical/moderate group of people
Wow, webster changed the definition of practical while I was asleep. Arresting a video proprietor for renting R rated movies qualifies as practical. Man, i'd hate to see them upset and fanatical
I wasn't so much talking about their religous (sp?) practices as their view of the world in general...
;)
;)
- This world was created by a god that was once a man like me, except he was good.
- The gospel was restored to this world when god and jesus came down and gave a teenage boy instructions on his religious choice.
- Followed by numerous visits by angels to return keys of the preisthood and locate golden plates hid under a rock.
- This world will be burned by fire at the end of armageddon and all the wicked people (not good jesus lovers) will burn baby burn.
- After they die, they will be resurrected with new, imortal bodies, and then, if they are really good and have done their part, BECOME GODS! (i love that part) just like the god that created this world and a buttload of others.
- Oh, in heaven you can have lots of wives. No pesky laws to get in the way there
Sorry, but I think you shoulda stuck to practices.. *grin*
In general (one always has to speak generally) they are neither the type who wants to have the government pull completely out of our lives, no the ones who wants it to baby them through their life.
**Side observation**
How dare you call atheists a religion!!
** End Side Observation **
This is NOT a constitutional or first amendment issue. They're not trying to filter everyone's connections. Whether or not you like it, they do have the right to attach conditions to the money that the state gives to libraries.
WRONG! This is a government funded institution, and as such, it cannot implement censoring software affecting all, and have the government pay for it. Sorry, this IS a constitutional issue.
Lack of faith?
Please tell me which links I may click on. Or better yet, write a program to do it.
;)
;)
You can click on any of the big newsites, any of the conservative christian sites, etc. But if you start accessing sites where anyone can post comments and links (like here) or where questionable content or links to it might exists, then that YOUR PEROGATIVE. its not the governments issue to make sure EVERY SINGLE PAGE ONT HE INTENET is clean and pure and snow. Dont be rediculous.
Dude, I'm someone you don't even know, and you want to go to hell solely because of me?
Your comments are enough to persuade me
Besides, I dont beleive in hell, so its an empty threat *grin*
But don't base your knowledge of Jesus simply because you disagree with me and stereotype all christians based on such. Maybe we see a side to this issue that you don't that you should.
I was religious for many years when I was younger, then I grew up and realized it was all manamde (in my opinion).
Gee, I'm just expressing my free speech and you want to go to hell because I do that? I thought you defended everyone's right to free speech?
I do, and its ME going to hell damnit! and i'll do what I want!!
You know that it happens all the time on the internet and that even they send it via email and you'll even find it doing simple searches
They send LINKS to it. Dont go there. And You only get that kinda mail if you have been to kinky sites, or posted your email address in a public place like usenet and such.
You have to admit that it's pops up in all these places even if you don't want it. Tell me how it should be stopped.
No, i dont see any of this Magical Pron that pops up all over your browser. Neither does anyone else. What are you searching for? nookie? (oops mispelled cookie)
Don't you care about the rights of others being trampled. Don't you care about free speech?
Yes. Hence my opposition to filters in government instiutions.
I can't remember his name, but a serial killer (killed only women) said that he started down the path to it because of pornography. Others in a similar situation have admitted this. Even I have gone down the spiral. The point is that not everyone can handle things.
The point is, some people have severe sexual pychosis and pathogenic problems. This is not a cause of pornography, these individuals were sick before they even look at their first nekked women.
Religious groups love to tout that one in a million individual that wigs out and blames it on pr0n because they can weild this as a nice big stick to get people to think their way. 'Look at porn to much and you will KILL! you will RAPE!'
Sorry, but people who do these things are going to do them anyway, as they are mentally disturbed, and not just porn parusers.
What about the hundreds and hundreds of millions of people that view porn and dont experience any negative effects or notice many postive ones (in relation to their love life, etc.). Do you hear paster john teach about these incidents? No, and thats the point. If you are a devout religious fundamentalist type, you only see things as they fit into your perspective. From such a viewpoint, that one serial killer, and that one rapists are more than enough justification to infridnge on free speach and illegalize porn.
Even I have gone down the spiral.
What, you started stalking women with intent to rape them? Thought about brutally murdering people as you watched nekked people cavort?
Well, you tell me
/. about it.
Agreed, I was being sarcastic.. I dont believe this stuff, obviously, so I take a rather ill view of it now. My appologies.
That said, most of what you are
quoting is standard anti-LDS stuff and three out of the four main anti-LDS websites, and like I just said -- the truth should be out there.
True, its considered anti mormon, but did you even read the links? No, because mormons are told not to even view anti mormon literature unless you want to tarnish your testimony. The fact is, all of those sites are based on fact. They present a view strongly oriented towards contradiction, but that is because most of those people dont like the church and its censoring tatics and beleifs.
Also, one of those sites is actually an article from a mormon historian who wrote that article while he was a history professor at BYU. He got tired of the church leaders always wanting him to present ONLY the positive aspects of the church, and wanted him to remove the 'warts' from all his work. This is fact. This upset this person, and he was excommunicated for not doing so. THis is also fact.
The church shortly thereafter starting closing up the archives, as many of the historians either left the church or were excommunicated for their work. The term 'Studying yourself out of the church' was thus coined and used to warn members that questioning the church and its leaders is a BAD THING. To summarize, anti-mormon as deemed by church leaders is a tool used to prevent evaluation of damaging fact.
There are some truly anti mormon sites, the god makers and such, which are completely false and full of lies, but the sites are not such, and much of what is factual history has been labeled as anti-mormon by church leaders simply because it is a 'wart' as you put it.
So, until you realize what exactly you are following, we really cant have much more of a discussion on this topic, as you will not look into it further, or will just believe what is told by the leaders, without a thourough excursion in the true history surrounding the church.
Well, the official reason the church gave for closing the archives is that when someone is new in the faith, they shouldn't have to confronted with all of the troubling questions right away. As you can tell, I disagree with the official reasoning
Well, be carefull what you say. Open disagreement with church leaders is grounds for excommunication. (seriously.. check the church handbook of instruction if you doubt me)
here are usually two sides to every story.
Yes, and unfortunately, much of some sides of the story are not recognized or tolerated by the church.
Problem is, attacks and counterattacks don't necessarily tell us what the true story is. Nor does ranting on
True, but I always feel an obligation towards truth.
In fact just the other day, I felt violated when I clicked on a link on Slashdot and got some nasty picture of some guy's butt.
You should know better than to click on any link in a users comment. that is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between porn being force down to your browser. You are bending and distorting issues based on your religious agenda.
you should add a mantra of "Parental involvement doesn't work" either and parents can't be there all the time!!!
Exactly, which is why filters wont work, and if your kids want porn, they will get it. period.
Deal with it, and spend your time teaching your children about moral responsiblity and your beliefs, but dont start fumbling in vain for non solutions.
The only thing that will stop it is to stop it at the sending side, not the receiving side
Yeah. Cars cause too many deaths. Lets ban cars. Doctors cause too many malpractice deaths, lets ban those. Cosmetic surgery is not essential and is dangerous. Lets ban that. Cmon, get a grip. Thats the most absurd proposition youve said yet. We all know porn isnt going anywhere, and there is nothing you can do about it. It would be a violation of your constitution to rule otherwise.
I mean we stop pornography from being on roadside billboards, why can't it be stopped on the internet???
Billboards are a public, PUSH type of interface into peoples eyes. The internet is a PASSIVE, you request what you want, private interface. Its not even remotely smiliar. Get a clue.
Don't ya think this is one of those times where Government regulation would make sense (to stop it on the sending side)?
No you fundie, I dont think so.
There definately needs to be some sort of regulation because it's way out of hand.
Get off the net then if you so concerned. Create a filter that only ALLLOWS certain sites, like your religious homepage. Cmon, this is your MORAL issue, not the governments issue. Get a clue.
What you are proposing is to just not do anything and let everyone including the kids just gorge themselves on it.
No, what I am proposing is that parents get more involved and pay attention to what their kids USE the internet for. This is a much more effective and meaningfull solution, whereas filtering is nothing but a flase sense of security causing more harm than good.
That's just what the devil wants. Be proud of yourself for preaching this and pray the Lord have mercy on you.
Im gonna rant here, but fuck jesus, if heaven is full of people like you id rather roast in hell.
I learned the finer points of atomic weapon design from the library back when I was 13-14. The book was about the manhattan project, and another book about extensive research one jouranlist did into the US atomic weapons projects. My dad worked at rocky flats, and had heard of this journalists book and such, and confirmed that many of the designs are very close to what is used, with the real sensitive information being the 'exact' milling of the nulcear pits (shape, size, position, etc of the various layers).
This was all very inlightening to me, and in fact, I learned a lot from it. Could I build a bomb? No way, atomic weapons are incredibly hard to construct. Logistics alone are a nightmare.. so , id ont know what your comment about kids knowing how to build bombs has to do with any of this, but thats my two cents on the issue.
As for porn, kids will get it if they want it. Parents who beleive filters in the library will prevent their kids innocence from being tainted are ridiculously naive.
Filters are not even a sub optimal solution to this issue.
Parental involvement, site histories, profiles, etc. But filtering is nothing but bad news and illegal for government funded institutions.
If you really want a filtered library, go pay for one yourself.
I agree 100%, but the fact is that the Mormon religion is a cult.
This isnt true. They *might* be classified a benign cult, which is called something else, a meme or something like that... But cults cause harm to their members, and mormons, as a whole, are happier and healtier than the average american. This disqualifies them as a true cult.
I grew up in Gilbert AZ which is like Salt Lake City Junior. Evey public school has a mormon church either right next to it, or across the street.
I have relatives in Gilbert, and your statement doesnt mean much considering how incredibly tiny this little twon is.
very day while waiting for the school bus they would try to indoctrinate me. I cannot tell you how many copies of the book of Moromon I have thrown away. If you do not conform, they make life a PITA for you.
Mormons are VERY BIG on recruiting, after all, if you beleived you held the keys to everlasting life and happiness, wouldnt you share that info? Your experience does seem a bit extreme. I know many mormons and that level of persistance is rather rare.
I was in class in high school and a Mormon was preeching to me and I flat out told him ot leave me alone. I WAS SENT TO DETENTION
Did you tell him to 'shut tha fuck up?' I think there is more to this than just.. 'leave me alone'
hese Morman missionaries wonder why I am so hostile when they come calling... ONCE A WEEK
Thats an exagerration. I can guarantee they do not call you once per week.
True, I take it back...
I just consider it extreme.. and mebbe a few other people out there..
As for what other religions beleive, I dont know..
The word of wisdom is definately good practice, in fact, It was instituted far before we knew about the bad effects of tobacco and drinking (health wise) and was definately a boon to ones health.
Amen Brother!
The mormon history is full of juicy bits like that, unfortunately the church has sealed all its historical documents (wonder why..) aside form those already widely in print...
The church continually refines and alters history so that it appears in a better light. This has happened since its foundation, why expect anything different now?
This is your montra. Congratulations. It has been said over and over, wise one.
Just making sure, it seems many people conviantly ignore this fact.
Now for real wisdom, just how do you stop it?
You cannot stop pornography. It is not possible. You can try and limits your childrens exposure to it, but again, if they want it, they will get it. Period. You would have to be with them every moment of every day to ensure otherwise.
Anyway, filtering may not stop it all, but it does at least stop a lot. A more correct statement would be that filters don't stop all pornography.
And filter many good and legitimate sites. Again, these are government funded institutions, and cannot implement censoring software pandering to certain religious agendas, and have the government pay for it.
Well, at least see what you preach - which is just as the devil preaches.
Huh? What does that comment mean?
But, wake up, it's not. It's not just free speach, it's about whether they have the right to force their speach on you.
This isnt about forcing pornography on someone. This is about the individuals rite to view internet content as they see fit. If you wish to restrict your childs viewing habbits, choose an effective method like histories, monitoring, etc.. Filters are no where near a good solution to this and cause much harm overall.
If you don't want to hear what someone says you just don't listen, but what about when they setup a megaphone outside your house and preach their filth day and night
What tha hell does this have to do with anything?? This isnt about PUSHING CONTENT on people, its about unfettered access to information.
It's the same with the internet, whether you want to listen or not, they push their speech on you. Would you like it if a fundamentalist constantly setup a megaphone outside your house?
This is completely ignorant and unfounded. What are you trying to say here??
You get porn on the internet whether you're looking for it or not. It must be stopped
That is bull. Its a fact. No one comes out and and forces you onto sex sites?!? Dont be rediculous.
Don't you believe in freedom of religion? Does that mean they can force their religion on you whether it be good or bad?
Yes, and they shouldnt be able to force anything on you. Which is exactly what this issue is about. Religious conservatives wanting to implement censoring software in government funded institutions based on religious or moral bias.
Pornography does ruin lives.
Again, thats your viewpoint. It has harmed some, yes, and it has helped some. Guns ruin lives, cars ruin lives, make a statement that pertains to this issue please.
I'd also with to stop the pornography, but you won't lift a finger to help. You just tout your "filters don't work" montra.
Im saying that filters are not the issue, parental involvement and other options are a solution, but NOT filtering.
Holy generalizations Batman! 'You people?' This must be some sort of personal crusade for you or something.
:(
No, i just am amazed at how vehemently some people beleive something without any fact which can be blatantly disproven by fact. Cults, religions, etc. There are always aspects of the above which defy all reasoning. I will never understand. Perhaps because I lack 'faith'.
As for your question, all of the logic above has factual and personally percieved backing, so I am very confident that it is correct.
Well, I am glad they dont make fact based on your feelings.
The truth is, there is no evidence to support your claims, and some to the contrary. It has often been suggested and even mildly proven (no one searches this to much depth) that the extremely conservative upbringing towards sex which occurs in settings such as SOME fundamentalist homes and other very restrictive atmospheres FOSTERS the kind of sexual abberations that sexual predators and serial killers exhibit. This is no means the cause of the majority of these crimes, nor even a fair amount, but there is eveidence that many have been caused by this type of repression, and the damaged mentality of the perpetrators.
Anyway, if you could provide me with your facts, that you read and hold dear as to these assumptions id be more than glad to look at them. Please do not send the 'So and so grew up and got addicted to pornography and then became a serial killer.. ' i am quite familiar with these religious skews on events, and the truth is they are biased and distort fact.
Please, oblige me.
No way! I am the first to admit that it is not the sole evil destroying the moral character. There are many more ways - this world has plenty!
Ok, good. I misunderstood you then.
Pornography, indecency, smut, immorality... call it what you like - they are all related. And yes, they are having a negative effect on marriages in this country
They also have a good effect. Which is also proven. When I mentioned sex as a factor for many divorces, it is LACK of GOOD sex. And instructional videos, dirty videos, etc. all have a place in SOME american homes to add pleasure to sex lives. To suggest that pornogrpahy (which I am assuming you define as graphic sexual content in any shape or form) as nothing but evil is wrong.
It does cause some ills, that I agree with. And there are some forms of pornography that are simly disgusting and perverse, IMHO, but they are never the less covered under the rights of the constiution.
I'm sorry I scare you.
Its not you, per se, as I imagine you are a decent person, but your attitude. But I wont tell you what to believe, so i'll leave it at that.
True. However, LDS folks also believe in upholding, honoring, and sustaining the law.Which means that when push came to shove and every appeal through the courts had been exhausted, the choice was given to the one person who had the authority to make the decision -- the president of the LDS church at that time -- a man named Wilford Woodruff. According to his journals, he saw in "a vision" what would happen if the church continued to follow and defend polygamy, vs. what would happen if the practice were abandoned. Hmm.. it took a vision from god to notice that when the government says 'Quit polygamy or we disband your religion' they mean what they say. Interesting. Also interesting is the fact that after polygamy was outlawed, and the church leaders forsook the practice in public, they themselves (including woodruf) continued to proactice it in secret. he was given knowledge by God, and the right to make the decision, which he did, ending the practice. He also stated that if God had said "continue", he would have obeyed God even knowing he was in violation of the law. Ahh, perhaps thats why he kept on doing it in secret. Thus, anybody attempting to perform a plural marriage after he said "stop" would be violating their sacred covenants. True, but those married to multiple wives beforehand were exempt apparently. This is all fact, its even in the church history, which the church has repeatedly censored and modified since its publication. Ever wonder why the church sealed up all its historical documents a few years back? The historians at BYU kept finding juicy tidbits like that, and others such as multiple versions of the first vision, correlations between josephs joining the Masons and the changes in the endowment ritual. Swearing to die by disembowlment, sliced throat, and something else (i forget at the time) if you broke the secret to the endowment? Oh, and dont forget that after the mormons were run out of missouri, the endowment contained an oath to 'swear vengance upon this nation and its leaders' until the blood of the saints was redeemed. Very interesing. No wonder the mormon church is one of the most censor happy instiutions.. Cant have stuff like that getting out.. Check the following for reference materials: http://members.aol.com/VeilW orker/endowment.index.html http://www.xmission.com/~count ry/reason/mormhist.htm http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html If I seem a little antagonistic, its because I was a mormon (born and raised) for many years, and then I find out about this stuff which the church so convieniantly hides and censors.
Nope, I'm just very disenchanted with them over some insane issues in the past.
Yeah, my GOD, they did their best to stop that law deeming pornagraphy ILLEGAL! That rape causing evil that it is. Cant they see that its breaking up families all across america and causing rapes everywhere?!?!?
(/sarcasm)
Because libraries are GOVERNMENT funded public entities. And a moral group cannot decide to implement censoring filters based on religious or moral beliefs and have the government pay for it!
If you want a censored library, go pay for one!