Sources? There are no sources, because we never showed them the evidence. Show me a single statement from our government where they say they have shared their "compelling evidence" regarding the WTC attack with the Taliban. We've shared it with other countries' governments, but last I heard, it isn't public info and the Taliban said they weren't going to consider turning over bin Laden until they get to see the evidence. Now they probably won't turn him over anyway, but at least we would have given them the option.
It's public information that is available on the net.
Sure. Give me a link where I can find the "compelling evidence" that bin Laden is behind the WTC destruction. Bush and others keep talking about it. He said we'd get to see it, but we haven't yet. Neither did he show the Taliban. Now like I said, it doesn't matter if they still refuse to turn him over or not. At least we would have put the option out there.
It's not even remotely that simple. We've supported terrorist groups ourselves. Should we be bombed for it? We helped bin Laden and those that became the Taliban to kick out a government that actually let women work and go to school, just because we didn't like Russia at the time. Don't pretend we've done nothing wrong here. Our past decisions are coming back to haunt us.
Complaining that they weren't shown this batch of evidence is a red herring, a dodge, and a lie.
I don't believe it's a lie. They actually haven't been shown this batch of evidence. As for it being a red herring, that's not really what I'm getting at. I'm just saying that we should have given them the evidence so that if/when they still refuse to hand him over, we could at least have shown that we tried to do it the right way. In this case, we didn't even try. And Bush said we'd be shown the evidence as well. We still haven't seen it either.
If that's the way it boils down, and our leaders know it, when are they gonna knock off all the bullshit rhetoric about how this was a totally unprovoked and unjustified attack on the US. It's really making me sick. Why don't they just come out and admit that we do whatever the fuck we want, and these guys have a problem with that, so we've got to kick their asses until they realize that they shouldn't fuck with us anymore?? When they gonna fucking be honest about it?
So why not just show them? Then when they still refuse, we can take other actions. Why not do it just so we can say we really exhausted the peaceful options?
I haven't seen a damn thing. Pardon me if I'm not entirely trusting of the NATO governments. We were told we would be shown the evidence. Now our country is at war and we haven't even seen evidence of why we should be bombing these people. They keep saying "trust us.. we have evidence." The US would NEVER turn someone over to another country without extremely compelling evidence of guilt, and probably not even then. Why do we expect them to do something that we would NEVER do ourselves??
Way more innocent lives will die if we don't act now.
I never said we shouldn't act. I'm saying that the actions we're taking are stupid and wrong. I'm saying that at the very least we should have presented the evidence to the Taliban to give them the opportunity to turn him over peacefully. I'm saying that regardless of whether or not they comply, killing innocents is only going to generate more hatred of the US, and subsequently more terrorists. How would you feel if your family was killed for something they didn't have any part of? Take that feeling and combine it with the active recruiting of terrorist groups which offer a method to strike back at those responsible for the unjust murder of your family and you begin to see why this most likely won't further our desire to eliminate terrorism. You don't eliminate terrorism by killing innocents. That much should be clear to us.
It doesn't matter whether they are like us or not. If we don't even give them the opportunity to live up to their promises, we really haven't attempted to go the more peaceful route. We had already decided that we were going to attack them. So we never showed them any evidence or gave them the opportunity to turn him over once they had seen compelling evidence. The claims by our government that we gave them a chance are complete and utter BS.
My sig has to do with the fact that religion is often used as a tool to control people. I really didn't think about it in relation to my post, but I suppose that the Taliban is an example of a group using religion to control people. If you look at the letters that the FBI says they found, you can see that religion played a big part in convincing these people to carry out their attacks.
Look back at what I said: that I didn't believe the Taliban would turn bin Laden over for any evidence.
Well, we will never know until we show them the evidence and find out. But as with the last attacks, the evidence is all classified and we aren't showing them anything. We just keep claiming that we have this compelling evidence, but we can't show anyone. They've already told us they know where bin Laden is. They said they would consider turning him over if we show them the evidence. Why didn't we just show them the evidence? Then if they still refused, we might have a leg to stand on if we decide to take him by force. Now it looks like our evidence isn't really all it's cracked up to be. Maybe it isn't so compelling. Maybe it's complete BS. We don't know.
Ok, to use your dad's example, what if the demonstrator reacted, not by punching you back, but by swinging wildly and hitting the 2 guys standing next to you? Suddenly he has 3 people willing to beat the hell out of him. That's what today's bombing is like, and what our further attacks are likely to do. This operation should have been targetted specifically at the handful of people responsible. It should have been handled more like a criminal case rather than a war.
Consider this. If another country demanded that we turn over one of our citizens, would we do it without seeing at the very least, compelling evidence, and probably incontrovertible proof of his guilt? Of course not. Then why do we expect the Taliban to turn over bin Laden or others when we haven't even shown them the proof? I think the demands were made as a show. Our government knew they weren't going to show any evidence to them. This was just a ploy to make it seem like we gave them a fair chance and they decided to support bin Laden instead.
Our intelligence network?? From what our government has been saying, we don't have much of an intelligence network dealing with Afghanistan or bin Laden. Regardless, if we are demanding that another government hand over one of its citizens, we had better be able to show them the proof. We would accept nothing less if the same were demanded of us. But this is just another issue on which the US displays its hypocritical behavior.
We haven't even been shown the evidence yet! Neither did we show the Taliban the evidence when we demanded that bin Laden be turned over to us. Why not?
Sucks to be an innocent civilian living under a tyrranical dictatorship getting bombed by a country that doesn't give a shit about who is innocent and who is guilty. They just want revenge. No better than the terrorists.
In any case, I don't care how many terrorists are out there. If we have to kill every last one of them, then that's what is required.
You really have no clue. You don't stop terrorism by killing innocent people like we're doing right now. Those people didn't elect the Taliban. Most of them don't even like the Taliban. They are afraid of them. Yet we kill these innocent civilians anyway. Just like the terrorists killed civilians in the US. It's not racist to believe that more terrorists will be created by these attacks by the US, it's common sense. The US is killing people that had nothing to do with the attacks on us. Do you really believe that someone will think these attacks are justified when his family was just killed for something they had nothing to do with?
Then there's this whole "War on Terrorism" thing. How do you fight this war without killing many innocents and thus creating more hate? How do you know if you've won? Seems a lot like the War on Drugs to me. We've fought it for decades and had little impact on drug availability in this country. It has been nothing but a giant black hole sucking our tax dollars and liberties away. Expect more of the same from the War on Terrorism.
I'm sure training camps exist. I'm also sure that nobody is stupid enough to be in them right now. Bet we don't kill many of the people we're after by bombing Kabul. Probably kill a lot of innocents though.
Not likely. Their sensibility usually caves in to the current thinking of the US government pretty quickly. If some law is a problem, it will be amended so that it won't be a problem any longer.
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Sources? There are no sources, because we never showed them the evidence. Show me a single statement from our government where they say they have shared their "compelling evidence" regarding the WTC attack with the Taliban. We've shared it with other countries' governments, but last I heard, it isn't public info and the Taliban said they weren't going to consider turning over bin Laden until they get to see the evidence. Now they probably won't turn him over anyway, but at least we would have given them the option.
It's public information that is available on the net.
Sure. Give me a link where I can find the "compelling evidence" that bin Laden is behind the WTC destruction. Bush and others keep talking about it. He said we'd get to see it, but we haven't yet. Neither did he show the Taliban. Now like I said, it doesn't matter if they still refuse to turn him over or not. At least we would have put the option out there.
It's not even remotely that simple. We've supported terrorist groups ourselves. Should we be bombed for it? We helped bin Laden and those that became the Taliban to kick out a government that actually let women work and go to school, just because we didn't like Russia at the time. Don't pretend we've done nothing wrong here. Our past decisions are coming back to haunt us.
Complaining that they weren't shown this batch of evidence is a red herring, a dodge, and a lie.
I don't believe it's a lie. They actually haven't been shown this batch of evidence. As for it being a red herring, that's not really what I'm getting at. I'm just saying that we should have given them the evidence so that if/when they still refuse to hand him over, we could at least have shown that we tried to do it the right way. In this case, we didn't even try. And Bush said we'd be shown the evidence as well. We still haven't seen it either.
If that's the way it boils down, and our leaders know it, when are they gonna knock off all the bullshit rhetoric about how this was a totally unprovoked and unjustified attack on the US. It's really making me sick. Why don't they just come out and admit that we do whatever the fuck we want, and these guys have a problem with that, so we've got to kick their asses until they realize that they shouldn't fuck with us anymore?? When they gonna fucking be honest about it?
So why not just show them? Then when they still refuse, we can take other actions. Why not do it just so we can say we really exhausted the peaceful options?
I haven't seen a damn thing. Pardon me if I'm not entirely trusting of the NATO governments. We were told we would be shown the evidence. Now our country is at war and we haven't even seen evidence of why we should be bombing these people. They keep saying "trust us.. we have evidence." The US would NEVER turn someone over to another country without extremely compelling evidence of guilt, and probably not even then. Why do we expect them to do something that we would NEVER do ourselves??
Way more innocent lives will die if we don't act now.
I never said we shouldn't act. I'm saying that the actions we're taking are stupid and wrong. I'm saying that at the very least we should have presented the evidence to the Taliban to give them the opportunity to turn him over peacefully. I'm saying that regardless of whether or not they comply, killing innocents is only going to generate more hatred of the US, and subsequently more terrorists. How would you feel if your family was killed for something they didn't have any part of? Take that feeling and combine it with the active recruiting of terrorist groups which offer a method to strike back at those responsible for the unjust murder of your family and you begin to see why this most likely won't further our desire to eliminate terrorism. You don't eliminate terrorism by killing innocents. That much should be clear to us.
We are specifically avoiding the Afghan people.
You buy that crap? We're blowing up sites in Kabul. INNOCENTS WILL DIE. There is no way around it when you're lobbing missiles from 1000 miles away.
It doesn't matter whether they are like us or not. If we don't even give them the opportunity to live up to their promises, we really haven't attempted to go the more peaceful route. We had already decided that we were going to attack them. So we never showed them any evidence or gave them the opportunity to turn him over once they had seen compelling evidence. The claims by our government that we gave them a chance are complete and utter BS.
My sig has to do with the fact that religion is often used as a tool to control people. I really didn't think about it in relation to my post, but I suppose that the Taliban is an example of a group using religion to control people. If you look at the letters that the FBI says they found, you can see that religion played a big part in convincing these people to carry out their attacks.
We could easily not send food supplies in at the same time, but we do.
Sending food is the least we could do after we cut off all supplies, including food and medical, from Pakistan.
We could easily bomb indiscriminately, but we haven't.
Do you really think we're only killing the Taliban with our cruise missiles and bombs?
This coming from the same country that refuses to sign on to an international court for fear of it's own people being tried anywhere else.
Look back at what I said: that I didn't believe the Taliban would turn bin Laden over for any evidence.
Well, we will never know until we show them the evidence and find out. But as with the last attacks, the evidence is all classified and we aren't showing them anything. We just keep claiming that we have this compelling evidence, but we can't show anyone. They've already told us they know where bin Laden is. They said they would consider turning him over if we show them the evidence. Why didn't we just show them the evidence? Then if they still refused, we might have a leg to stand on if we decide to take him by force. Now it looks like our evidence isn't really all it's cracked up to be. Maybe it isn't so compelling. Maybe it's complete BS. We don't know.
Ok, to use your dad's example, what if the demonstrator reacted, not by punching you back, but by swinging wildly and hitting the 2 guys standing next to you? Suddenly he has 3 people willing to beat the hell out of him. That's what today's bombing is like, and what our further attacks are likely to do. This operation should have been targetted specifically at the handful of people responsible. It should have been handled more like a criminal case rather than a war.
Consider this. If another country demanded that we turn over one of our citizens, would we do it without seeing at the very least, compelling evidence, and probably incontrovertible proof of his guilt? Of course not. Then why do we expect the Taliban to turn over bin Laden or others when we haven't even shown them the proof? I think the demands were made as a show. Our government knew they weren't going to show any evidence to them. This was just a ploy to make it seem like we gave them a fair chance and they decided to support bin Laden instead.
Our intelligence network?? From what our government has been saying, we don't have much of an intelligence network dealing with Afghanistan or bin Laden. Regardless, if we are demanding that another government hand over one of its citizens, we had better be able to show them the proof. We would accept nothing less if the same were demanded of us. But this is just another issue on which the US displays its hypocritical behavior.
We haven't even been shown the evidence yet! Neither did we show the Taliban the evidence when we demanded that bin Laden be turned over to us. Why not?
When you don't offer an explanation for your insult, you make it quite clear who the moron is.
Sucks to be an innocent civilian living under a tyrranical dictatorship getting bombed by a country that doesn't give a shit about who is innocent and who is guilty. They just want revenge. No better than the terrorists.
In any case, I don't care how many terrorists are out there. If we have to kill every last one of them, then that's what is required.
You really have no clue. You don't stop terrorism by killing innocent people like we're doing right now. Those people didn't elect the Taliban. Most of them don't even like the Taliban. They are afraid of them. Yet we kill these innocent civilians anyway. Just like the terrorists killed civilians in the US. It's not racist to believe that more terrorists will be created by these attacks by the US, it's common sense. The US is killing people that had nothing to do with the attacks on us. Do you really believe that someone will think these attacks are justified when his family was just killed for something they had nothing to do with?
Then there's this whole "War on Terrorism" thing. How do you fight this war without killing many innocents and thus creating more hate? How do you know if you've won? Seems a lot like the War on Drugs to me. We've fought it for decades and had little impact on drug availability in this country. It has been nothing but a giant black hole sucking our tax dollars and liberties away. Expect more of the same from the War on Terrorism.
Saved me the time of posting the same thing.
I'm sure training camps exist. I'm also sure that nobody is stupid enough to be in them right now. Bet we don't kill many of the people we're after by bombing Kabul. Probably kill a lot of innocents though.
Not likely. Their sensibility usually caves in to the current thinking of the US government pretty quickly. If some law is a problem, it will be amended so that it won't be a problem any longer.
If everyone does it, the government can't pick out the ones it's interested in.
Just build a Farraday cage around your room. :)