Notice I didn't say all napsteroids. Also notice I didn't say mp3's were an act of civil disobedience, I was just showing how doing something illegal isn't necessarily wrong and using music copyrights as a possible example. Don't try changing my argument an putting words into my mouth. Besides, you don't have to declare the fact that you are ignoring a law. You just do it.
Not true, it is only more effective civil disobedience if you publicize the fact. There's no denying that you're illegally distributing music, but is does not necessarily imply that you are immoraly distributing it.
it doesn't become ok.. nor does it change from an being an illegal activity to a moral anti-capitalist gesture.
Well yeah it kinda does.
"United States copyright law considers copyright a bargain between the public and authors" (Stallman)
Essentially ignoring copyright laws can be a form of civil disobedience, or boycott in which the public does not have to deprive itself of the object in question. Now I'll be the first to admit that, for the most part, this isn't the motivating force behind the majority of mp3 downloads. I'll also admit that this isn't even an effective boycott in the case of mp3's, since cd sales have, in my understanding, stayed stable or even increased since the explosion of mp3 sharing.
The concept is still however the same. If a corporation isn't behaving fairly, in your opinion, try to hit them where it hurts. It's easy to see that current laws are inadequate, and the patchwork laws that are being passed are even worse. Should the DMCA come up on a ballot it would most likely be voted down. Instead of protecting the people it protects corporations.
All in all I'm not saying mp3 sharing is right or wrong, but it can be a valid expression of civil disobedience.
In my outlook, I refuse to pay $10-20 for a cd that only has one good song on it, neither would I pay $3-5 if that song happened to be released as a single. If a record company made the song available as an mp3 for $1 I'd prbably pay to d/l it. Assuming that it didn't have any kind of copy protection on it. Additionally by downloading mp3's I avoid being taxed a second time on money that I've allready had taxed once. So I stop buyng cd's... no. I will still continue to buy cd's that are worth it (not just one good song), but I will never pay for a whole cd just to listen to one song.
You're thinking too small. And only with today's technology in mind. Read The Diamond Age?
We've already seen articles (on/. even) on digital paper. Onve this technology is created and marketed how long until you can buy a "book" that you can plug a chip, disc, or other media in and the text appears? Personally I'd love a device like this, as much as I love normal books, I'd love to carry fifteen of them in my pocket and be able to pop one of them in my "paper book" at any time to read them. The look and feel of a normal book would be there with the convenience of a digital format.
Can you blame them? Let's abstract the situation somewhat: a multi-billion-dollar industry has operated in a particular way for decades. Law
Hell yeah I can blame them. You act as if these publishers are not going to take advantage of the new technology too. They would love to go complety digital. You'd still get charged the same price, or higher for a book, but it would cost an infitesimel amount to produce. You eliminate the manufacture, materials, and distribution costs. And once they get their way, it's only a matter of time before certain publishers try new tricks like licensing the material, and building in expiration dates... Remember that e-book you paid 5 bucks to download and never got around to reading, too bad it's gone, the expiration date already passed.
I didn't take much of a stance in the Napster/mp3 debate. I don't mind buying cd's, I also don't mind downloading mp3's (even if I have to pay for them), but when the producers start doing things that restrict my right to fair use (i.e. non rippable cd's) I hit the roof.
Music isn't nearly as important to me as books. If the publishing industry were to take this step I would dedicate my free time to cracking any scheme that came down the pipes.
I know it's kind of an alarmist view, but books are sacred. Although I would never trade my paper copy of GEB for a digital version.
No that was my sig. If I were comparing vi to Word it would be like comparing a first rate product to Word. I can do anything in vi that you can do in word... faster . With professinal typesetting if need be. Ok,ok, maybe not vi alone, but I've got enough tools on a Unix box to suplement vi, and ways to automate that suplementation(sp).
I've said this over and over. I tend to get modded down pretty regularly for it. But I agree with you completely. Legislation is not the answer. Like you said it's a boot in the door.
I for one would not pay for something like that, I'm not even sure that MAPS has a legitimate claim to the data either. Isn't the information that they broker submitting free of charge by users?
Perhaps a freenet application would be a viable solution? Instead of having some servers at a hosting facility somewhere all users who wished to use it could share the hosting duties.
Seriously. Personally I'm much happier at work when the leash is removed and I can just run with whatever comes down the pipe. While I realize the importance of doing the day to day things and getting my job done, it's the coolness factor that drew me to computers as a child. Regardless of whether I'm playing with something that's theoretical or practical I'm at my best when I'm left to explore. Sometimes it's exploration of something that has been covered before and it's just new to me, and other times I may be breaking some new ground. But either way I'm learning and growing (and taking steps down the path to computer geek enlightenment). Whichever way you look at it, I'm willing to offer up my drive to explore and solve problems to whatever company I work for. It's only of benefit to the company when you let passionate workers loose (at least occasionally). I'm not saying let them loose constantly so that no daily work gets done, but it only takes some freedom to keep people like me happy. I'm ten times as productive when I'm fired up about something than when I'm not.
Whoops you're correct. Serves me right for trying to make a quick joke without checking verifying my memory. . I guess it's been to long since I've looked at that stuff.
I pretty much agree with you. I know I can be a bit of a prima donna at times. Sometimes it's warranted, other times it's probably not. The one point you make that I feel is really strong is about commentation. Before I worked in the industry I would comment rarely. I didn't need to, cryptic comments were enogh to let me know what I was thinking at the time. It took a month or so to shake that habit. It was working on others undocumented ( and in several cases really bad) code that finally made it click inside my head that it was important. I didn't comment sparsely to be a dick, I just assumed everyone else would unserstand what I was doing. I'll be the first to admit that I love to throw an elegant hack into code, it part of the joy and art of programming. But I always document it when I do something like that, usually providing extra comments explaingin not only how but why I did something a certain way. It makes me a better coder because I have to justify why not just throw something in because it's cool.
I don't understand why anyone would want to hide their clever hacks. I'd rather gain the respect of my co wrokers by having them understand a cool trick I pulled off, and learn from their cool tricks than have either us hide our skill.
Not that I don't necessarily disagree with you, but you need to support your argument better. A theory IS NOT reality, it is a possible reality. Even less scientific law IS NOT reality, it is a framework that enables us to think and reason about the world around us, but there is NO way of ever knowing that it's true, just that it's the best fit so far. You have to remember that these are theories, if there was sufficient proof, they would be scientific law which is still debatable (see above) but could at least be considered solid.
I don't give a damn where you went to school. That's meaningless. I went to MIT so what? You have no idea how easily I handle algorithms, or design or anything else for that matter. You don't know how many degrees I have or what they're in.
I can't even been to deconstruct your last paragraph. Who's being elitist now? They must not watch tv, or play with their kids, or just go outside because they are so busy too huh?
Actually I work well in a team, I can lead and be lead. Most of my reaction was over-reaction to being attacked and my inability to ignore trolls. I do not like Java. I can use it but I do not like it. It doesn't matter what language I'm asked to work in I am more than capable.
As far as the difference between CS and SE, I know both, I'm damn good at both. I will admit that I'm more CS oriented, but I also believe that you have to be. I also believe that you need a deep understanding of CS to be a software engineer, otherwise you will always be surpassed by those with knowledge of the theory who can adapt to any situation.
Amazing, you're analysis of me is so complete from just a few paragraphs that were posted on a weblog. You have a gift my friend, oh yes you do. I think I need a cry.
It continually amazes me that people feel so strong behind the shield of anonyminity.
And those of you who are so stupid to have to learn algorithms piss me off. You're just bitter that you have to study. Some of undestand with little or no problem.
You've proven you're foolishness immediately by your very first statement. To even make the claim that every student in a class has the intention to learn is ridiculous, apparently you haven't been to school at all. The majority of students aren't there to learn, they're there to get a degree, which is a wholly separate thing. They don't care if they leave with the knowledge or not just as long as they get a passing grade. Graduating from school lacking knowledge is ENTIRELY the fault of the student. If a student leaves college with no knowledge it's because he/she did not put sufficient effort into it. The knowledge is there.
Yeah I am an elitist, but I have every reason to be. You throw it around like it's a dirty word, I'm proud of my ability, and of course I look down on anyone who can't compete.
I understand it fine, and I've designed plenty in Java, and I still feel it's not real programming. To put it bluntly it's slow, underpowered, and boring. The fact that demonstrating algorithms is better in a higher level language is better is an unwarranted claim. You don't back it up at all, it's nothing more than opinion. If you can't implement an algorithm without keeping track of the details at the same time, maybe you shouldn't be coding. I am fluent in java, I could use it exclusively if I wanted to but why? I much prefer writing for java in native c, at least then I get to do real work.
That's not true. There is not always a better way. If I want blazin fast code I'll still write it in assembler. And I'll beat anyone else's code in a higher level language. The truth is that you should be using the right tool for the right job, somethings assembler is more appropriate for, and some that java is. The number of situations that assembler is needed for has not shrunk, the the frequency that an average coder encounters them has. The average coder today can skip along using others libraries indefinitely, because someone else with real skill came along and created them. If you'll forgive me an analogy, it's like cooking, I can't do it, but when I can buy the pre-made ingredients on a higher level than raw ingredients, do little more than combine them and heat, I've made a meal, but someone with some skill had to provide me with the tools to do it.
The recent decline in status of assembler falls into the same category of those who say (and teach) such bullshit as "Computers are so fast nowadays you don't have to worry about speed", "Memory is so cheap and plentiful, you don't have to worry about size", and "Never, ever use a goto statement". All three of these statements are false, but that's the mentality that's being passed along. Which is fine when you do nothing more than write jsp pages (or whatever), but to get involved even a little with hard core "real" coding you're going o have to through this crap out the window.
I certainly agree, Java is like (just about) every other language, using only the basic you can build your own code libraries (which hopefaully at least sometimes are better than using others, at the very least you learn something). You're right that it is the IDE and not the language, (although there are times when Java is infuriating, sometimes the programmer is smarter that the compiler (and lang specification) and what appears to be code that's shooting yourself in the foot is actually a brilliant hack... but I digress) but on a higher level I'd have to say that it's the mindset of the differnt types of programmers. Most java programmers aren't like you (that I have met at least) and don't do much more than point this object at that one and compile. I imagine it's a natural progression, over time the level of common tasks in technical fields fall to a level where a larger portion of the population can do it. The lowere level stuff will be programmed by real programmers,... the people who write the java compilers and envrionments, the people who use java to write libraries for others to use.
It's sad that if you were to go to a college campus today and talk to the students, you'd be hard pressed to find one in twenty that really enjoys programming. The future hacker who loves the details and understands computers. The rest are kids whose parents (or through their own ideas) told them that they could make a lot of money in computers. Which sadly sends some woefully underskilled and (dare I say) incompetent workers into the field. I realize I'm being a little elitist, but it's getting harder to find people who appreciate the art of programming, and get fired up over great code, killer algorithms, and elegant proofs in computer science.
Slashdot Mirror
Notice I didn't say all napsteroids. Also notice I didn't say mp3's were an act of civil disobedience, I was just showing how doing something illegal isn't necessarily wrong and using music copyrights as a possible example. Don't try changing my argument an putting words into my mouth. Besides, you don't have to declare the fact that you are ignoring a law. You just do it.
Not true, it is only more effective civil disobedience if you publicize the fact. There's no denying that you're illegally distributing music, but is does not necessarily imply that you are immoraly distributing it.
Well yeah it kinda does. "United States copyright law considers copyright a bargain between the public and authors" (Stallman)
Essentially ignoring copyright laws can be a form of civil disobedience, or boycott in which the public does not have to deprive itself of the object in question. Now I'll be the first to admit that, for the most part, this isn't the motivating force behind the majority of mp3 downloads. I'll also admit that this isn't even an effective boycott in the case of mp3's, since cd sales have, in my understanding, stayed stable or even increased since the explosion of mp3 sharing.
The concept is still however the same. If a corporation isn't behaving fairly, in your opinion, try to hit them where it hurts. It's easy to see that current laws are inadequate, and the patchwork laws that are being passed are even worse. Should the DMCA come up on a ballot it would most likely be voted down. Instead of protecting the people it protects corporations.
All in all I'm not saying mp3 sharing is right or wrong, but it can be a valid expression of civil disobedience.
In my outlook, I refuse to pay $10-20 for a cd that only has one good song on it, neither would I pay $3-5 if that song happened to be released as a single. If a record company made the song available as an mp3 for $1 I'd prbably pay to d/l it. Assuming that it didn't have any kind of copy protection on it. Additionally by downloading mp3's I avoid being taxed a second time on money that I've allready had taxed once. So I stop buyng cd's... no. I will still continue to buy cd's that are worth it (not just one good song), but I will never pay for a whole cd just to listen to one song.
I don't use the same sig everytime. That's the beaty of keymapping my friend. I can hit a key for a random one, or hit another for a specific one.
We've already seen articles (on /. even) on digital paper. Onve this technology is created and marketed how long until you can buy a "book" that you can plug a chip, disc, or other media in and the text appears? Personally I'd love a device like this, as much as I love normal books, I'd love to carry fifteen of them in my pocket and be able to pop one of them in my "paper book" at any time to read them. The look and feel of a normal book would be there with the convenience of a digital format.
Hell yeah I can blame them. You act as if these publishers are not going to take advantage of the new technology too. They would love to go complety digital. You'd still get charged the same price, or higher for a book, but it would cost an infitesimel amount to produce. You eliminate the manufacture, materials, and distribution costs. And once they get their way, it's only a matter of time before certain publishers try new tricks like licensing the material, and building in expiration dates... Remember that e-book you paid 5 bucks to download and never got around to reading, too bad it's gone, the expiration date already passed.
I didn't take much of a stance in the Napster/mp3 debate. I don't mind buying cd's, I also don't mind downloading mp3's (even if I have to pay for them), but when the producers start doing things that restrict my right to fair use (i.e. non rippable cd's) I hit the roof.
Music isn't nearly as important to me as books. If the publishing industry were to take this step I would dedicate my free time to cracking any scheme that came down the pipes.
I know it's kind of an alarmist view, but books are sacred. Although I would never trade my paper copy of GEB for a digital version.
It was an on topic sig, I got rid of it.
No that was my sig. If I were comparing vi to Word it would be like comparing a first rate product to Word. I can do anything in vi that you can do in word... faster . With professinal typesetting if need be. Ok,ok, maybe not vi alone, but I've got enough tools on a Unix box to suplement vi, and ways to automate that suplementation(sp).
Because for you a second rate product would be a step up. ;-)
When I need to edit text I use vi.
I for one would not pay for something like that, I'm not even sure that MAPS has a legitimate claim to the data either. Isn't the information that they broker submitting free of charge by users?
Perhaps a freenet application would be a viable solution? Instead of having some servers at a hosting facility somewhere all users who wished to use it could share the hosting duties.
Joke right? Netscape is no more standards compatible than Explorer. Not that I'm condoning the use of Explorer of course.
Seriously. Personally I'm much happier at work when the leash is removed and I can just run with whatever comes down the pipe. While I realize the importance of doing the day to day things and getting my job done, it's the coolness factor that drew me to computers as a child. Regardless of whether I'm playing with something that's theoretical or practical I'm at my best when I'm left to explore. Sometimes it's exploration of something that has been covered before and it's just new to me, and other times I may be breaking some new ground. But either way I'm learning and growing (and taking steps down the path to computer geek enlightenment). Whichever way you look at it, I'm willing to offer up my drive to explore and solve problems to whatever company I work for. It's only of benefit to the company when you let passionate workers loose (at least occasionally). I'm not saying let them loose constantly so that no daily work gets done, but it only takes some freedom to keep people like me happy. I'm ten times as productive when I'm fired up about something than when I'm not.
Whoops you're correct. Serves me right for trying to make a quick joke without checking verifying my memory. . I guess it's been to long since I've looked at that stuff.
I don't understand why anyone would want to hide their clever hacks. I'd rather gain the respect of my co wrokers by having them understand a cool trick I pulled off, and learn from their cool tricks than have either us hide our skill.
Wouldn't be the first time you were wrong, one only has to read the posts to find any number of other examples.
Not that I don't necessarily disagree with you, but you need to support your argument better. A theory IS NOT reality, it is a possible reality. Even less scientific law IS NOT reality, it is a framework that enables us to think and reason about the world around us, but there is NO way of ever knowing that it's true, just that it's the best fit so far. You have to remember that these are theories, if there was sufficient proof, they would be scientific law which is still debatable (see above) but could at least be considered solid.
Well actually yeah we do, it's really, really big and called the universe <grin>. But your point is still well taken.
I can't even been to deconstruct your last paragraph. Who's being elitist now? They must not watch tv, or play with their kids, or just go outside because they are so busy too huh?
As far as the difference between CS and SE, I know both, I'm damn good at both. I will admit that I'm more CS oriented, but I also believe that you have to be. I also believe that you need a deep understanding of CS to be a software engineer, otherwise you will always be surpassed by those with knowledge of the theory who can adapt to any situation.
It continually amazes me that people feel so strong behind the shield of anonyminity.
moron
You've proven you're foolishness immediately by your very first statement. To even make the claim that every student in a class has the intention to learn is ridiculous, apparently you haven't been to school at all. The majority of students aren't there to learn, they're there to get a degree, which is a wholly separate thing. They don't care if they leave with the knowledge or not just as long as they get a passing grade. Graduating from school lacking knowledge is ENTIRELY the fault of the student. If a student leaves college with no knowledge it's because he/she did not put sufficient effort into it. The knowledge is there.
Yeah I am an elitist, but I have every reason to be. You throw it around like it's a dirty word, I'm proud of my ability, and of course I look down on anyone who can't compete.
You are wrong. Number one there is always room for hand tuning. Number two, in the case of java you always have the overhead of the virtual machine.
I understand it fine, and I've designed plenty in Java, and I still feel it's not real programming. To put it bluntly it's slow, underpowered, and boring. The fact that demonstrating algorithms is better in a higher level language is better is an unwarranted claim. You don't back it up at all, it's nothing more than opinion. If you can't implement an algorithm without keeping track of the details at the same time, maybe you shouldn't be coding. I am fluent in java, I could use it exclusively if I wanted to but why? I much prefer writing for java in native c, at least then I get to do real work.
The recent decline in status of assembler falls into the same category of those who say (and teach) such bullshit as "Computers are so fast nowadays you don't have to worry about speed", "Memory is so cheap and plentiful, you don't have to worry about size", and "Never, ever use a goto statement". All three of these statements are false, but that's the mentality that's being passed along. Which is fine when you do nothing more than write jsp pages (or whatever), but to get involved even a little with hard core "real" coding you're going o have to through this crap out the window.
It's sad that if you were to go to a college campus today and talk to the students, you'd be hard pressed to find one in twenty that really enjoys programming. The future hacker who loves the details and understands computers. The rest are kids whose parents (or through their own ideas) told them that they could make a lot of money in computers. Which sadly sends some woefully underskilled and (dare I say) incompetent workers into the field. I realize I'm being a little elitist, but it's getting harder to find people who appreciate the art of programming, and get fired up over great code, killer algorithms, and elegant proofs in computer science.