What you are saying is that you think that given an infinite amount of time that it may become possible and that by making that argument you are inferring that you are a fucking idiot. Ok. Both are true.
Someday there maybe materials invented that make every problem with this system go away and you are an idiot.
If you make it deep enough you can design the normal sections to handle the much smaller expansion issues.
You still need (With incredibly optimistic numbers) 24,000 normal sections. Still need to over the life of the system replace 80 of those a month.
Now though you have to do it underground.
The truth is to make this work is possible.
To afford the build cost is difficult
To have maintenance costs that keep the project viable is impossible.
In the end it can not work. To get around all the massive issues with this idea make it prohibitively expensive to build, and more importantly the cost to maintain and operate is far to high to make sense.
Well.
If we want to just imagine shit, then free energy, everything is free and most things easy.
You could go with the best materials we currently know of that we have no idea how to make on that scale. 20ft diameter carbon nanotubes.
That could probably work well. They are much lighter and are effected far, far less by temperature changes. If we did that we would not need expansion joints. We would just need to bolt together vacuum sealed sections.
If it makes you feel better we can keep the impossibly long to transport to site 300 ft long sections and we can just decide that they can go on average 50 years before needing maintenance. That is still 10 to replace every week. Assuming no unforeseen failures.
Herp derp.
But yes. If we come up with materials we have not even thought of and everything becomes massively cheap and we are able to get around current regulations we could possibly make it work. Then again we could say the same thing about matter replicators. If I was trying to get California to give me money to set up a hypothetical matter replicator network to help the poor.....
Is Hyperloop cheaper long term? That still up for debate...
No. Not even close.
600 mile route is 1200 miles of tube. 1 each way.
IF you could do 300 foot sections of tube that would be about 24,000 bolted together seals. Shorter sections equate to many more seals.
If you put one expansion joint every 2000 feet, you would need about 3,500 of those. Each needing to move about 12" do to temperature expansion (Steel, low temp 40f high 110f).
If you can make the main joints last for 25 years on average before replacement (Not likely considering vacuum and shit.) would would be replacing 80 of them a month. Expansion joints lasting 10 years on average I think would be good. There you would be replacing about 30 of them a month.
That is 110 places a month that need to get replaced. If you never have them go bad out of sequence it is possible I guess if you start at one end and go down doing replacements methodically and were able to isolate from the rest of the system, pressurize, remove and install 20 normal sections and 8 expansion joints, re do the vacuum and open to the rest of the system once a week, every week and get it done between 11 PM and 6 AM so as to not kill service too badly...
If you could do great, get the best maintenance, the seals and expansion joints work wonders and last for LONG times. If you could do all that.
Seems like you read about git one day and then decided that you understood what it is and all it can do and now have opened your mouth and been found a fool.
Many iPhone buyers have disposable income and most of the $40 will come out of savings. There are some working poor that can not really afford an iPhone and some of them may spend less elsewhere as a result. Some of them may hold on to their phone longer or buy a less expensive phone.
Yours.
You should tell Apple that iPhone buyers are universally willing to spend $40 more and they can't find anything else they'd like to spend an additional $40 for than the iPhone they're already buying. Apple has obviously screwed up royally in setting their price at such a steep discount, and would profit greatly by raising the price of the iPhone $40 without actually adding anything to the model.
The very first line you type lets me know that this discussion is a waste of my time.
You should tell Apple that iPhone buyers are universally willing to spend $40 more and they can't find anything else they'd like to spend an additional $40 for than the iPhone they're already buying.
You are not a fucking moron. Therefore you know I did not come close to stating that, or implying, "universally". In fact I stated very clearly that some would have less to spend and that some would buy cheaper phones. Since we both know that I stated that, it is clear that you will lie to get your point across. Not only will you lie, but on line one, you felt so incapable to defend your ideas that you started out with lies about what I said.
It is a good thing you are trying to be a politician. You are unable to defend ideas, you lie to try not to look like you are losing and I am sure you will do the same in your campaign. I hope only that others in your area see the levels that you will stoop to in order push ideas that you can not truthfully defend.
Much like comparing people to Hitler, when your first line is based on a blatant lie the conversation must end.
First.
The thought that most (Even though you did the math for ALL) iPhone buyers will buy $40 less stuff because their phone cost $40 more is a fallacy.
Many iPhone buyers have disposable income and most of the $40 will come out of savings. There are some working poor that can not really afford an iPhone and some of them may spend less elsewhere as a result. Some of them may hold on to their phone longer or buy a less expensive phone.
Chinese manufacture is the best in the world.
No it is not. It is just really cheap.
I don't even know how to relate to some of the mature-class mechanisms--but I'm at a point where encountering painful thoughts just leads to a lot of screaming until the pain goes away.
And running for office.
I would guess you simply have too many holes in your understanding of economic history and economics in general
Yes. That would be a guess that you make.
are working off political ideals you've let define your identity; as I seem to be altogether better at an objective examination of a situation (rather than ranting about whether an action is right or wrong or a disaster because $REPUBLICANS $DEMOCRATS), and have made statements which would invalidate some of your ideals, you feel threatened and need to diminish me to below your life experience.
I do not work off political ideals. I work off ideals.
Thinking that stating that some guys got fucked by the Chinese and a statement of "Chinese manufacturing is the best" do not invalidate my ideas. Your simple math attempted that. Thinking that $40 to be spent, must be taken from somewhere is false. If it were true we could not have had the economic growth we have had for the last 100 years. The economy is not a strictly zero sum game.
I mentioned nothing about democrats or republicans. They both care more about a letter, "D" or, "R" than the country or the people in it.
I look down simply because your ideas are shallow.
You can not agree, but even your rebuttal math shows that you do not have an understanding of how economies work.
People who pay more for luxury items do not all have to pay less elsewhere. There is a qualitative difference between the tax money given to government to be doled out as services for under and unemployed and receiving less in taxes to give people real jobs. If you want to judge Chinese manufacturing maybe you should look at the quality of LED strips, Tools, Vaping Equipment, or many other things they make in China. It is cheap, it does mostly work. It is not good quality and China does not have the best manufacturing in the world.
Bad Math - Zero Sum Economics - Best Manufacturing in the World - and the thought that iPhone users all have to stop spending in other places to buy an iPhone are all things that point to you not having a firm grasp on the subjects you are speaking on.
The spending of money has to come from somewhere--notably, taxpayer pockets.
It already does. Paying for services for all those people without jobs.
if America loses 87,000 jobs
If the white whale beaches itself off the coast of Africa. (See how anyone can make any statement at all by just typing and nothing more need be done.)
If you think that the idea that an iPhone will cost $40.00 more because of increased labor costs will cost the US 87,000 jobs, show your work their bucko.
f we buy from them rather than picking up the cheap (and identical) Chinese one.
Tell that to the dead pets and children eating lead paint. Chinese products can be identical for a few bucks less. They can and often are dangerously different.
this is Wisconsin and Wisconsin cares about Wisconsin first!
Umm, Yes.
You seem young. University was not the education that you thought it was. Learn some history, grow out of your bubble, work hard for a decade and fail a few times and survive and learn from that. If you are smart and you learn well from your experiences you might just become a complete person.
You mean Amazon does the same shit every retailer has always done?
The big story is the people who are fooled by this. About 15% of the population is incredibly stupid. Let us stop fucking up the world trying to drag these fuckers with us.
Because I am capable of making my own decision of what I do and do not want on my phone. I do not need a dead fag with a turtle neck to tell me what I want in a phone.
he amount of advertising on the Android handset I owned got to be so overwhelming that it was one of the major reasons I am back to iPhone, after having given it up hoping for a more open and functional platform. Turned out, it wasn't.
This is what the guy you were replying to said.
His issue was not the brand new keyboard thing. He is already back at iPhone. His issue is that he is cheap and fucking lazy.
I have no ads anywhere other than in browser on sites that have them. Maybe it is because I choose decent apps and pay for them. Instead of downloading every piece of shit freeware on the face of the planet and then complaining about it.
Then go ahead and get a running system using 2400(Low estimate) sliding, expanding vacuum seals and 24000 (Low estimate) connected sections all with a reasonable life expectancy and get it to continue running at a reasonable cost over time.
You will most likely be replacing 10 of the expansion joints every month and 100 of section joints every month once the system has been run in.
That is assuming 5 year average life of the expansion joint and 25 years for the regular sections. With 200 foot long sections (I do not think they will be that long and expansion joints every 2000 feet and the system having 2 tubes and only being 400 miles long.
Exactly what are you arguing?
I understand that it technically CAN be done.
It will not be done though.
You are not going to have a viable system over 400 miles long with 20 sections a day needing to be isolated, pressurized, dismantled, depressurized and put back into service. These are conservative estimates.
Again. I am not saying we do not have the tech and knowledge to build a system to those specs, but how is that going to run passenger service on a regular basis for less than the cost of a plane ticket?
Unless you can get the regular sections to be over 200 ft long and last 50 years on average and get the expansion joints to last 20 years on average or more, it is not a viable transportation system.
4km is nothing.
You are talking at least 400 Miles. Minimum number of expansion joints will be 2400.
There is no way it will be that small. I already in other comments stated that it can be done. What I pointed out is that with conservative estimates on everything. Temp swings, number of expansion joints, life of a joint, and ignoring all other joints and systems the maintenance on a system like this is prohibitive.
After a few years of running they will be finding and needing to replace a minimum of 40 of these seals a month.
The truth is that you are going to be looking many more joints than 2400. The average lifetime of these expansion joints is going to be less than 5 years. Then there are going to be the at least 80,000 (200 ft sections) regular connections that must be checked, and replaced at intervals (25 Years you are talking over 250 of these a month being replaced.)
I am not arguing that there is no way to create a system that can handle large vacuums, as in previous comments I am just pointing out that the system can not be run.
Be honest. You are not going to run a system that needs 40 expansion joints and 250 section joints replaced every month and run the system with passengers making money. NO FUCKING WAY.
Not diameter. The length of the sections. If you do one expansion joint every 2000ft the steel will expand over 10 inches with just the normal temp differences seen between night and day. That is going to be at 400 miles about 1200 expansion joints for each of the 2 tubes. With the normal stresses of the seal having to deal with the diameter changes it will also have to be able to hold the seal and slide up and down the length constantly, every day, inches.
Slashdot Mirror
What you are saying is that you think that given an infinite amount of time that it may become possible and that by making that argument you are inferring that you are a fucking idiot. Ok. Both are true.
Someday there maybe materials invented that make every problem with this system go away and you are an idiot.
Which problems go away underground? One.
If you make it deep enough you can design the normal sections to handle the much smaller expansion issues.
You still need (With incredibly optimistic numbers) 24,000 normal sections. Still need to over the life of the system replace 80 of those a month.
Now though you have to do it underground.
The truth is to make this work is possible.
To afford the build cost is difficult
To have maintenance costs that keep the project viable is impossible.
In the end it can not work. To get around all the massive issues with this idea make it prohibitively expensive to build, and more importantly the cost to maintain and operate is far to high to make sense.
Well.
If we want to just imagine shit, then free energy, everything is free and most things easy.
You could go with the best materials we currently know of that we have no idea how to make on that scale. 20ft diameter carbon nanotubes.
That could probably work well. They are much lighter and are effected far, far less by temperature changes. If we did that we would not need expansion joints. We would just need to bolt together vacuum sealed sections.
If it makes you feel better we can keep the impossibly long to transport to site 300 ft long sections and we can just decide that they can go on average 50 years before needing maintenance. That is still 10 to replace every week. Assuming no unforeseen failures.
Herp derp.
But yes. If we come up with materials we have not even thought of and everything becomes massively cheap and we are able to get around current regulations we could possibly make it work. Then again we could say the same thing about matter replicators. If I was trying to get California to give me money to set up a hypothetical matter replicator network to help the poor.....
Well. That is how fucking stupid this idea is.
Using all overly optimistic numbers so that even the apologists have nothing to attack.
Try refuting numbers instead of saying stupid shit because your assumptions were invalid.
I was going for numbers everywhere that were all overly optimistic to show that it can never happen.
Is Hyperloop cheaper long term? That still up for debate...
No. Not even close.
...
If you could do great, get the best maintenance, the seals and expansion joints work wonders and last for LONG times. If you could do all that.
600 mile route is 1200 miles of tube. 1 each way.
IF you could do 300 foot sections of tube that would be about 24,000 bolted together seals. Shorter sections equate to many more seals.
If you put one expansion joint every 2000 feet, you would need about 3,500 of those. Each needing to move about 12" do to temperature expansion (Steel, low temp 40f high 110f).
If you can make the main joints last for 25 years on average before replacement (Not likely considering vacuum and shit.) would would be replacing 80 of them a month. Expansion joints lasting 10 years on average I think would be good. There you would be replacing about 30 of them a month.
That is 110 places a month that need to get replaced. If you never have them go bad out of sequence it is possible I guess if you start at one end and go down doing replacements methodically and were able to isolate from the rest of the system, pressurize, remove and install 20 normal sections and 8 expansion joints, re do the vacuum and open to the rest of the system once a week, every week and get it done between 11 PM and 6 AM so as to not kill service too badly
It would still be a clusterfuck.
Let us get a group of people to ban the creation of Ice-Nine.
It might not be such a great idea.
Seems like you read about git one day and then decided that you understood what it is and all it can do and now have opened your mouth and been found a fool.
Many iPhone buyers have disposable income and most of the $40 will come out of savings. There are some working poor that can not really afford an iPhone and some of them may spend less elsewhere as a result. Some of them may hold on to their phone longer or buy a less expensive phone.
Yours.
You should tell Apple that iPhone buyers are universally willing to spend $40 more and they can't find anything else they'd like to spend an additional $40 for than the iPhone they're already buying. Apple has obviously screwed up royally in setting their price at such a steep discount, and would profit greatly by raising the price of the iPhone $40 without actually adding anything to the model.
Nothing more need be said. I am done with you.
You should tell Apple that iPhone buyers are universally willing to spend $40 more and they can't find anything else they'd like to spend an additional $40 for than the iPhone they're already buying.
You are not a fucking moron. Therefore you know I did not come close to stating that, or implying, "universally". In fact I stated very clearly that some would have less to spend and that some would buy cheaper phones. Since we both know that I stated that, it is clear that you will lie to get your point across. Not only will you lie, but on line one, you felt so incapable to defend your ideas that you started out with lies about what I said.
It is a good thing you are trying to be a politician. You are unable to defend ideas, you lie to try not to look like you are losing and I am sure you will do the same in your campaign. I hope only that others in your area see the levels that you will stoop to in order push ideas that you can not truthfully defend.
Much like comparing people to Hitler, when your first line is based on a blatant lie the conversation must end.
The thought that most (Even though you did the math for ALL) iPhone buyers will buy $40 less stuff because their phone cost $40 more is a fallacy.
Many iPhone buyers have disposable income and most of the $40 will come out of savings. There are some working poor that can not really afford an iPhone and some of them may spend less elsewhere as a result. Some of them may hold on to their phone longer or buy a less expensive phone.
Chinese manufacture is the best in the world.
No it is not. It is just really cheap.
I don't even know how to relate to some of the mature-class mechanisms--but I'm at a point where encountering painful thoughts just leads to a lot of screaming until the pain goes away.
And running for office.
I would guess you simply have too many holes in your understanding of economic history and economics in general
Yes. That would be a guess that you make.
are working off political ideals you've let define your identity; as I seem to be altogether better at an objective examination of a situation (rather than ranting about whether an action is right or wrong or a disaster because $REPUBLICANS $DEMOCRATS), and have made statements which would invalidate some of your ideals, you feel threatened and need to diminish me to below your life experience.
I do not work off political ideals. I work off ideals.
Thinking that stating that some guys got fucked by the Chinese and a statement of "Chinese manufacturing is the best" do not invalidate my ideas. Your simple math attempted that. Thinking that $40 to be spent, must be taken from somewhere is false. If it were true we could not have had the economic growth we have had for the last 100 years. The economy is not a strictly zero sum game.
I mentioned nothing about democrats or republicans. They both care more about a letter, "D" or, "R" than the country or the people in it.
I look down simply because your ideas are shallow.
You can not agree, but even your rebuttal math shows that you do not have an understanding of how economies work.
People who pay more for luxury items do not all have to pay less elsewhere. There is a qualitative difference between the tax money given to government to be doled out as services for under and unemployed and receiving less in taxes to give people real jobs. If you want to judge Chinese manufacturing maybe you should look at the quality of LED strips, Tools, Vaping Equipment, or many other things they make in China. It is cheap, it does mostly work. It is not good quality and China does not have the best manufacturing in the world. Bad Math - Zero Sum Economics - Best Manufacturing in the World - and the thought that iPhone users all have to stop spending in other places to buy an iPhone are all things that point to you not having a firm grasp on the subjects you are speaking on.
The spending of money has to come from somewhere--notably, taxpayer pockets.
It already does. Paying for services for all those people without jobs.
if America loses 87,000 jobs
If the white whale beaches itself off the coast of Africa. (See how anyone can make any statement at all by just typing and nothing more need be done.) If you think that the idea that an iPhone will cost $40.00 more because of increased labor costs will cost the US 87,000 jobs, show your work their bucko.
f we buy from them rather than picking up the cheap (and identical) Chinese one.
Tell that to the dead pets and children eating lead paint. Chinese products can be identical for a few bucks less. They can and often are dangerously different.
this is Wisconsin and Wisconsin cares about Wisconsin first!
Umm, Yes.
You seem young. University was not the education that you thought it was. Learn some history, grow out of your bubble, work hard for a decade and fail a few times and survive and learn from that. If you are smart and you learn well from your experiences you might just become a complete person.
You can spend money on permanent jobs (Foxcon), Temp make work projects, or welfare.
Foxcon is a better deal for Wisconsin that it seems.
Just not against, "Protected Classes".
You mean Amazon does the same shit every retailer has always done?
The big story is the people who are fooled by this. About 15% of the population is incredibly stupid. Let us stop fucking up the world trying to drag these fuckers with us.
Because I am capable of making my own decision of what I do and do not want on my phone. I do not need a dead fag with a turtle neck to tell me what I want in a phone.
he amount of advertising on the Android handset I owned got to be so overwhelming that it was one of the major reasons I am back to iPhone, after having given it up hoping for a more open and functional platform. Turned out, it wasn't.
This is what the guy you were replying to said. His issue was not the brand new keyboard thing. He is already back at iPhone. His issue is that he is cheap and fucking lazy.
Funny.
I have no ads anywhere other than in browser on sites that have them. Maybe it is because I choose decent apps and pay for them. Instead of downloading every piece of shit freeware on the face of the planet and then complaining about it.
Then go ahead and get a running system using 2400(Low estimate) sliding, expanding vacuum seals and 24000 (Low estimate) connected sections all with a reasonable life expectancy and get it to continue running at a reasonable cost over time.
You will most likely be replacing 10 of the expansion joints every month and 100 of section joints every month once the system has been run in.
That is assuming 5 year average life of the expansion joint and 25 years for the regular sections. With 200 foot long sections (I do not think they will be that long and expansion joints every 2000 feet and the system having 2 tubes and only being 400 miles long.
Exactly what are you arguing?
I understand that it technically CAN be done.
It will not be done though.
You are not going to have a viable system over 400 miles long with 20 sections a day needing to be isolated, pressurized, dismantled, depressurized and put back into service. These are conservative estimates.
Again. I am not saying we do not have the tech and knowledge to build a system to those specs, but how is that going to run passenger service on a regular basis for less than the cost of a plane ticket?
Unless you can get the regular sections to be over 200 ft long and last 50 years on average and get the expansion joints to last 20 years on average or more, it is not a viable transportation system.
4km is nothing.
You are talking at least 400 Miles. Minimum number of expansion joints will be 2400.
There is no way it will be that small. I already in other comments stated that it can be done. What I pointed out is that with conservative estimates on everything. Temp swings, number of expansion joints, life of a joint, and ignoring all other joints and systems the maintenance on a system like this is prohibitive.
After a few years of running they will be finding and needing to replace a minimum of 40 of these seals a month.
The truth is that you are going to be looking many more joints than 2400. The average lifetime of these expansion joints is going to be less than 5 years. Then there are going to be the at least 80,000 (200 ft sections) regular connections that must be checked, and replaced at intervals (25 Years you are talking over 250 of these a month being replaced.)
I am not arguing that there is no way to create a system that can handle large vacuums, as in previous comments I am just pointing out that the system can not be run.
Be honest. You are not going to run a system that needs 40 expansion joints and 250 section joints replaced every month and run the system with passengers making money. NO FUCKING WAY.
Not diameter. The length of the sections. If you do one expansion joint every 2000ft the steel will expand over 10 inches with just the normal temp differences seen between night and day. That is going to be at 400 miles about 1200 expansion joints for each of the 2 tubes. With the normal stresses of the seal having to deal with the diameter changes it will also have to be able to hold the seal and slide up and down the length constantly, every day, inches.
Not trivial.
Yes.
If they could make boring a 400+ mile long tunnel cost effective, it would reduce the complexity of the problems I laid out by a large chunk.
Of course minor earthquakes at the wrong place would be unavoidably catastrophic if built underground.