It's amazing that most people simply accept that Hypocrisy is the norm. That's sad.
The copyright organizations call for "zero tolerance" and are then caught themselves.
The congressmen who rail against finding teenagers attractive are caught lusting after them.
Preachers who rail on homosexuals are caught fucking gay prostitutes.
Vigilantes who claim to catch online predators are found to be employing young teens in their exploits and having child pornography on their computers.
Educators who rail against drugs and demand for instant lockup of drug offenders... are found to be drug users themselves...
These are all real stories.
Instead of stepping back and recognizing that their viewpoints may be of questionable value and that they may have made errors in judgment... they just ignore their mistakes and continue in their hypocritical ways.
The funny thing is that from every study I've seen, sex offender recividism IS NOT that much higher than other groups of criminals and in fact, may be lower.
I've never seen it conclusively cited otherwise, other than by isolated studies that are contradicted by a number of other studies.
There are cases for generic and cases for non-generic.
There's nothing to say that brands are evil, just that brands with heavy advertising aren't necessarily more worthy of a purchase.
When it comes to drugs, generics actually ARE composed of essentially the same thing, but when it comes to card or liquor or computer parts, "generics" are definitely not.
However, purchasing a car bumper because the TV showed a hot woman rubbing on it is different than purchasing it because it's a superior product.
That's the contention this whole thread. Some people seem to think that advertising legitimately will make me pay more for an identical or inferior product, without my conscious knowledge, which I have argued as a bit of bunk, at least the enormous majority of the time, for me personally.
I've mentioned it elsewhere, but my upbringing, i was always TAUGHT that advertising was a colossal waste of resources. My subconscious reaction to pervasive ads is to flag brands I see in them as "overpriced" and "annoying".
hah! now that you mention it, I have seen that one during an NHL game.
I'm not really sure what it has to do with the reasons I like subaru... being the only company that makes a respectable wagon with decent fuel economy, reasonable amount of power and a large interior, without turning it into a gigantic SUV-boat.
Actually, Audi used to make a nice one, but they discontinued it so they wouldn't cut into their big-ass SUV sales. Volvo makes one, but it's underpowered compared to the Subaru, though their older cards still appeal to me (the big square tanks).:-)
I buy my clothes at whatever store is closest to me... It happens to be a Target that's closest to my home and work, so I shop there.
Generally pick out a few things that aren't awful looking on me and leave. I'd guess I spend $400 per year on clothes, maybe less. And that includes work clothes.
What brand are they? I dunno. One of them says "George" on the label. WhoTF is that? lol
See the thing about advertising is it is the EPITOME of conformism. And actually falling for an ad pitching "non-conformity" is almost an oxymoron...... I have a feeling I would be rolling my eyes at a commercial like that.
But then again, I was the one laughing out loud in the movie theater at the goofy shallow theatrical twists in the recent Batman movie.
But seriously, on the topic, I think people's subconscious tendencies can be swayed.
I was raised with the concept that 'advertising is wasted money" and I categorize products I see advertised in a semi-conscious list of "probably overpriced due to expensive advertising campaigns".
If I had kids, I would teach them that same thing from a young age.
I think those unconscious bias that you talk about can be altered, but maybe it's something you have to grow up with.
I can only name a dozen or so, but that may be related to the fact that I probably watch an hour of TV per month, outside of NHL hockey, and I just paid $180 my NHL team games streamed online without any ads. Hooray for technology.
I guess it's less a question of whether or not the advertising produces awareness, which it will, whether we like it or not, but rather the question of "how does it translate into sales?"
I also make conscious decisions to avoid products which produce obnoxious ads, or otherwise intrude in an unwelcome way. It's my way of discouraging obnoxious advertising, as little as I can do personally.
But along the same lines, I grew up in a family of skeptics and thrifty people and generally one unconscious bias I have is... If I've seen a product advertised, that is going to raise the cost of the product in relation to what you actually receive.
When I see an advertisement, in a lot of cases, the product gets added to a mental list of "probably overpriced" and I think it tends to influence my buying decisions in a negative rather than a positive way in many cases.
I STILL recognize that a lot of products sell due to advertising and that brand recognition is a big deal, but in terms of actual buying power, I make a conscious effort refuse to contribute and to purchase on a strictly "dollars" vs "features" basis.
I'm looking around my desk, in the same way the GP did an I'm surprised by some of the brands because I didn't even realize the products I bought were branded. But the brands are primarily things like Kroger and Hyvee and Nature's Bouty and Iron Forge some of the technology names I see are Kingston and Digipower and Planar and D-Link and Pinnacle.
Not a single one of those has ever advertised and they were all chosen on a cost-features basis.
My computer has an Intel CPU, but that's based purely on cost vs speed. I think the motherboard is a Taiwanese company.. I don't even remember the brand, but it works great.
I have an MP3 player called "Sansa", which I think is made my Sandisk, but I don't care because it was $19. I hate iPods because they reek of "overpriced" and I despise being tied to a platform ("iTunes") or a specific DRM (the Zune).
I'm not sure what to say. I guess my mattress was a Simmons, which is an advertised brand, but the name didn't even apply- I picked the most comfortable one and didn't notice the brand until the sales guy tried to sell me an "upgrade".
I frankly, am participating in this a little because I'm fascinated at the apparent power of advertising.
I had always assumed it was a generational gap, but maybe it's not.
Hey, I just thought of another kind of advertising that works very well and is very cheap.
Rewards programs. I always fly a certain airline because they give me free tickets a few times a year if I do. I also stay at the same hotel chain for the same reason.
What DOES NOT work on me in a similar light are stupid reward programs, like the fact that I carry around FIVE different plastic cards, one for each brand of supermarket. I don't give a crap which one I shop in, but if one of them were to drop their obnoxious "we jack up the price so we can discount it when you get our stupid card" program, I might be willing to go a few minutes out of my way to go there, just as a statement of how lame that crap is.
meh.
To me, there are really effective means to direct-market to people. But blanket broadcast advertising just blows my mind when it's assumed to be the reason for a brand's popularity. Maybe it actually is and I'm just missing out, but it seems absurd to me, from the viewpoint of my values and my feelings on the subject.
yeah, and I'll go out and make a download service that screens movies and strips embedded advertising and my MYSELF rich. (because I suspect it would be hugely popular):-)
This discussion isn't about retail shelf placement, which I just said, is very important.
However, placing a bottle of Pepsi between two boobies on Thursday evening television isn't one of those things that would affect my purchasing decision.
Putting it at the front of a store, where I can get to it without walking a long distance, IS something that would affect my decision.
Personally, I make a conscious decision to avoid doing that.
I know I'm not perfect, but the drugs on my desk right now are all generics. Sometimes I buy Advil brand, but that's because they have a sweet flavored coating on their pills and none of the 8 or 10 different generics I've tried have that feature.
For car insurance, I actually called a number of smaller companies and ended up getting a cheaper premium with one of the big companies, which disappointed me.
You know, I like some brands. I always buy "Canada Dry" ginger ale, because it's way better than any other brand I've tried.
But I've NEVER seen an ad for it.
I just did a walk around my house looking for brands that I've seen on TV and Colgate is the only one I can find. I ate at qdoba the other day. I think I saw a TV ad of theirs once.
I even buy generic Oreos. There ones made my Newman's Own are organic and way tastier than the real shit.
Aha!! I just rooted around in my pantry a bit to find some brands and realized that I buy heavily advertised brands of alcohol. Kahlua, Tuaca, Chopin vodka, Baileys Irish Cream.... Tasty.
I specifically bought Kikoman soy sauce, because it's supposed to be much better than other brands.
I guess the fact that many Asian restaurants use it also swayed that opinion, though I've never seen any traditional advertising for it...
I can't find a single other nationally advertised brand in my house...
I guess I have "bounce" fabric softener. Do they advertise? I dunno, it smelled the nicest on the shelf (I probably looked silly sniffing all the boxes).
I guess I recognize that a lot of people buy brands because of advertising, but I still don't see a great impact from my personal perspective.
But my personal habits probably don't matter one bit to big companies who have plenty of other customers.:-)
Well, I work in computer security and mmm "advertising" (usually in its more insidious forms) accounts for about 40% of the security problems in most organizations.
Considering I work for a "small fish" company who goes around cleaning that up, and our company pulls about $30 million per year from doing it...
I regard insidious advertising as a big problem. Firms like doubleclick, who index and categorize browsing trends by embedding cookies in everything are on an equal level of damage to society as when the government does the same thing... but it would be illegal for the government to do that... you know, invasion of privacy, etc.
So yeah, online advertising tends to piss me off a little, though it sure does pay well cleaning up the mess.
I've been thinking and I've decided, at least for me, that big purchases are rarely affected by advertising because I consciously go out of my way to be educated on features and make an informed decision.
But with small stupid trivial stuff, maybe the ads do something.
However, I still lean toward the fact that price and availability are far more important.
I was thinking of buying Mentos. Which I've done.
But I realized that I'd probably not have bought them if they weren't within arms reach of the cash register at the store....
*shrugs*
meh. Advertising still seems like a colossal waste of money to me, but I'm glad others disagree.
The most memorable ads, if I recall, were actually remembered with very few people actually remembering what the product was.
I recall the Larry Bird vs Michael Jordan ads of the late 80s were some of the most popular ads of all time. In surveys, like 95% of people chose them as the best ads of the superbowl. But only 5% of those people could remember any products being pitched in the ad.
Most ads remind me of Family Guy.
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man! Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man! Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man! Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man! Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man! Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man! Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man!
I am a member of a number of websites with no advertising, even large ones.
I even pay subscription fees to some.
The fact that there is so much advertising that I tune it out has little to no relevance to your desire for me not to share my opinion, or your belief that my opinion is going to shut down Slashdot... or whatever.
Frankly, I made my income for 5 years off advertising, but we did it in a way that was not stupid banner ads. There were active discussion forums about products related to our content, where people got together to purchase the product for a volume discount and in exchange for organizing it, the site took a moderate cut.
The people got a better deal than they would have without that service and the site was able to make a decent income doing it.
Of course, that was ages ago, but the fact still stands that there are unobtrusive means to conduct business.
On another hand, I block advertising as a side effect.
I block third party cookies, I use NOScript and FlashBlock for legitimate security reasons. The fact that this effectively kills about 95% of advertising isn't really my problem.
They want to drop cookies on my machine and make flash animations fly all over and I don't allow unauthorized flash animations.
Google ads still appear for me, and those are often quite relevant, but one issue is that I don't purchase things online through random retailers FOR SECURITY REASONS, so those ads have little to no benefit to me.
If I want to buy something online, I'll go find a retailer rating website where I can choose a few good retailers to check out and make an educated decision from there and only purchase from reputable stores, regardless of the advertising.
I never called anyone stupid or called for the decline of slashdot, but I won't pretend that ads are super-duper effective, just so that you don't get upset.
Slashdot Mirror
The T-Mobile MDA and the follup, T-Mobile Wing are both based on Windows Mobile 6, which includes a tethering app as part of the operating system.
T-Mobile always supported tethering with my old MDA (that's a rebranded HTC Hermes).
So... is it an android rule, or does T-Mobile just not bother to stand up to Microsoft who supports it on all of their phones?
hmmm..
It's amazing that most people simply accept that Hypocrisy is the norm. That's sad.
The copyright organizations call for "zero tolerance" and are then caught themselves.
The congressmen who rail against finding teenagers attractive are caught lusting after them.
Preachers who rail on homosexuals are caught fucking gay prostitutes.
Vigilantes who claim to catch online predators are found to be employing young teens in their exploits and having child pornography on their computers.
Educators who rail against drugs and demand for instant lockup of drug offenders... are found to be drug users themselves...
These are all real stories.
Instead of stepping back and recognizing that their viewpoints may be of questionable value and that they may have made errors in judgment... they just ignore their mistakes and continue in their hypocritical ways.
And the world is a worse place for it.
The funny thing is that from every study I've seen, sex offender recividism IS NOT that much higher than other groups of criminals and in fact, may be lower.
I've never seen it conclusively cited otherwise, other than by isolated studies that are contradicted by a number of other studies.
and you would be in prison for the rest of your life.
Good deal. Awesome. You are SUCH A MAN.
You are a nutjob with serious mental stability issues if you actually mean what you say.
There are cases for generic and cases for non-generic.
There's nothing to say that brands are evil, just that brands with heavy advertising aren't necessarily more worthy of a purchase.
When it comes to drugs, generics actually ARE composed of essentially the same thing, but when it comes to card or liquor or computer parts, "generics" are definitely not.
However, purchasing a car bumper because the TV showed a hot woman rubbing on it is different than purchasing it because it's a superior product.
That's the contention this whole thread. Some people seem to think that advertising legitimately will make me pay more for an identical or inferior product, without my conscious knowledge, which I have argued as a bit of bunk, at least the enormous majority of the time, for me personally.
I've mentioned it elsewhere, but my upbringing, i was always TAUGHT that advertising was a colossal waste of resources. My subconscious reaction to pervasive ads is to flag brands I see in them as "overpriced" and "annoying".
*shrug*
Awesome, thanks!
I wonder if that would work on the airlines. hahhahaha :-D
hah! now that you mention it, I have seen that one during an NHL game.
I'm not really sure what it has to do with the reasons I like subaru... being the only company that makes a respectable wagon with decent fuel economy, reasonable amount of power and a large interior, without turning it into a gigantic SUV-boat.
Actually, Audi used to make a nice one, but they discontinued it so they wouldn't cut into their big-ass SUV sales. Volvo makes one, but it's underpowered compared to the Subaru, though their older cards still appeal to me (the big square tanks). :-)
I buy my clothes at whatever store is closest to me... It happens to be a Target that's closest to my home and work, so I shop there.
Generally pick out a few things that aren't awful looking on me and leave. I'd guess I spend $400 per year on clothes, maybe less. And that includes work clothes.
What brand are they? I dunno. One of them says "George" on the label. WhoTF is that? lol
See the thing about advertising is it is the EPITOME of conformism. And actually falling for an ad pitching "non-conformity" is almost an oxymoron...... I have a feeling I would be rolling my eyes at a commercial like that.
But then again, I was the one laughing out loud in the movie theater at the goofy shallow theatrical twists in the recent Batman movie.
meh.
Haha... funny.
But seriously, on the topic, I think people's subconscious tendencies can be swayed.
I was raised with the concept that 'advertising is wasted money" and I categorize products I see advertised in a semi-conscious list of "probably overpriced due to expensive advertising campaigns".
If I had kids, I would teach them that same thing from a young age.
I think those unconscious bias that you talk about can be altered, but maybe it's something you have to grow up with.
But I do appreciate your.... parody :-)
I can only name a dozen or so, but that may be related to the fact that I probably watch an hour of TV per month, outside of NHL hockey, and I just paid $180 my NHL team games streamed online without any ads. Hooray for technology.
I agree as well.
I guess it's less a question of whether or not the advertising produces awareness, which it will, whether we like it or not, but rather the question of "how does it translate into sales?"
I also make conscious decisions to avoid products which produce obnoxious ads, or otherwise intrude in an unwelcome way. It's my way of discouraging obnoxious advertising, as little as I can do personally.
But along the same lines, I grew up in a family of skeptics and thrifty people and generally one unconscious bias I have is... If I've seen a product advertised, that is going to raise the cost of the product in relation to what you actually receive.
When I see an advertisement, in a lot of cases, the product gets added to a mental list of "probably overpriced" and I think it tends to influence my buying decisions in a negative rather than a positive way in many cases.
I STILL recognize that a lot of products sell due to advertising and that brand recognition is a big deal, but in terms of actual buying power, I make a conscious effort refuse to contribute and to purchase on a strictly "dollars" vs "features" basis.
I'm looking around my desk, in the same way the GP did an I'm surprised by some of the brands because I didn't even realize the products I bought were branded. But the brands are primarily things like Kroger and Hyvee and Nature's Bouty and Iron Forge some of the technology names I see are Kingston and Digipower and Planar and D-Link and Pinnacle.
Not a single one of those has ever advertised and they were all chosen on a cost-features basis.
My computer has an Intel CPU, but that's based purely on cost vs speed. I think the motherboard is a Taiwanese company.. I don't even remember the brand, but it works great.
I have an MP3 player called "Sansa", which I think is made my Sandisk, but I don't care because it was $19. I hate iPods because they reek of "overpriced" and I despise being tied to a platform ("iTunes") or a specific DRM (the Zune).
I'm not sure what to say. I guess my mattress was a Simmons, which is an advertised brand, but the name didn't even apply- I picked the most comfortable one and didn't notice the brand until the sales guy tried to sell me an "upgrade".
I frankly, am participating in this a little because I'm fascinated at the apparent power of advertising.
I had always assumed it was a generational gap, but maybe it's not.
Hey, I just thought of another kind of advertising that works very well and is very cheap.
Rewards programs. I always fly a certain airline because they give me free tickets a few times a year if I do. I also stay at the same hotel chain for the same reason.
What DOES NOT work on me in a similar light are stupid reward programs, like the fact that I carry around FIVE different plastic cards, one for each brand of supermarket. I don't give a crap which one I shop in, but if one of them were to drop their obnoxious "we jack up the price so we can discount it when you get our stupid card" program, I might be willing to go a few minutes out of my way to go there, just as a statement of how lame that crap is.
meh.
To me, there are really effective means to direct-market to people. But blanket broadcast advertising just blows my mind when it's assumed to be the reason for a brand's popularity. Maybe it actually is and I'm just missing out, but it seems absurd to me, from the viewpoint of my values and my feelings on the subject.
The interface of the home computer in the recent movie "Ironman" is a great example of this.
A computer with an intelligent personality and some basic visual displays as well.... That's a neat hybrid with infinite potential uses.
I actually like this.
As long as the speech-to-text is reasonably accurate, it will do what I want.
I hate driving and having to type something into google to figure out and address or phone number.
If i could say it, even if it was only close to accurate, it would be safer and save me some headache.
Now I just need an iPhone. LOL.
yeah, and I'll go out and make a download service that screens movies and strips embedded advertising and my MYSELF rich. (because I suspect it would be hugely popular) :-)
This discussion isn't about retail shelf placement, which I just said, is very important.
However, placing a bottle of Pepsi between two boobies on Thursday evening television isn't one of those things that would affect my purchasing decision.
Putting it at the front of a store, where I can get to it without walking a long distance, IS something that would affect my decision.
BIG BIG difference, however.
+1 Funny
You are so relevant.
. /me bows to your sniveling and departs to accomplish more important things
Personally, I make a conscious decision to avoid doing that.
I know I'm not perfect, but the drugs on my desk right now are all generics. Sometimes I buy Advil brand, but that's because they have a sweet flavored coating on their pills and none of the 8 or 10 different generics I've tried have that feature.
For car insurance, I actually called a number of smaller companies and ended up getting a cheaper premium with one of the big companies, which disappointed me.
You know, I like some brands. I always buy "Canada Dry" ginger ale, because it's way better than any other brand I've tried.
But I've NEVER seen an ad for it.
I just did a walk around my house looking for brands that I've seen on TV and Colgate is the only one I can find. I ate at qdoba the other day. I think I saw a TV ad of theirs once.
I even buy generic Oreos. There ones made my Newman's Own are organic and way tastier than the real shit.
Aha!! I just rooted around in my pantry a bit to find some brands and realized that I buy heavily advertised brands of alcohol. Kahlua, Tuaca, Chopin vodka, Baileys Irish Cream.... Tasty.
I specifically bought Kikoman soy sauce, because it's supposed to be much better than other brands.
I guess the fact that many Asian restaurants use it also swayed that opinion, though I've never seen any traditional advertising for it...
I can't find a single other nationally advertised brand in my house...
I guess I have "bounce" fabric softener. Do they advertise? I dunno, it smelled the nicest on the shelf (I probably looked silly sniffing all the boxes).
I guess I recognize that a lot of people buy brands because of advertising, but I still don't see a great impact from my personal perspective.
But my personal habits probably don't matter one bit to big companies who have plenty of other customers. :-)
Hah.
Well, I work in computer security and mmm "advertising" (usually in its more insidious forms) accounts for about 40% of the security problems in most organizations.
Considering I work for a "small fish" company who goes around cleaning that up, and our company pulls about $30 million per year from doing it...
I regard insidious advertising as a big problem. Firms like doubleclick, who index and categorize browsing trends by embedding cookies in everything are on an equal level of damage to society as when the government does the same thing... but it would be illegal for the government to do that... you know, invasion of privacy, etc.
So yeah, online advertising tends to piss me off a little, though it sure does pay well cleaning up the mess.
I'm not familiar with the "head on" ads, btw.
Not enough TV in my diet. :-D
I've been thinking and I've decided, at least for me, that big purchases are rarely affected by advertising because I consciously go out of my way to be educated on features and make an informed decision.
But with small stupid trivial stuff, maybe the ads do something.
However, I still lean toward the fact that price and availability are far more important.
I was thinking of buying Mentos. Which I've done.
But I realized that I'd probably not have bought them if they weren't within arms reach of the cash register at the store....
*shrugs*
meh. Advertising still seems like a colossal waste of money to me, but I'm glad others disagree.
That's interesting.
The most memorable ads, if I recall, were actually remembered with very few people actually remembering what the product was.
I recall the Larry Bird vs Michael Jordan ads of the late 80s were some of the most popular ads of all time. In surveys, like 95% of people chose them as the best ads of the superbowl. But only 5% of those people could remember any products being pitched in the ad.
Most ads remind me of Family Guy.
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man!
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man!
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man!
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man!
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man!
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man!
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man!
heh
In Latin American soccer games, they use this technology during time-outs to project ads onto the field.
The US market is just a bit more resistant to such pervasive iickyness. :-)
I am a member of a number of websites with no advertising, even large ones.
I even pay subscription fees to some.
The fact that there is so much advertising that I tune it out has little to no relevance to your desire for me not to share my opinion, or your belief that my opinion is going to shut down Slashdot... or whatever.
Frankly, I made my income for 5 years off advertising, but we did it in a way that was not stupid banner ads. There were active discussion forums about products related to our content, where people got together to purchase the product for a volume discount and in exchange for organizing it, the site took a moderate cut.
The people got a better deal than they would have without that service and the site was able to make a decent income doing it.
Of course, that was ages ago, but the fact still stands that there are unobtrusive means to conduct business.
On another hand, I block advertising as a side effect.
I block third party cookies, I use NOScript and FlashBlock for legitimate security reasons. The fact that this effectively kills about 95% of advertising isn't really my problem.
They want to drop cookies on my machine and make flash animations fly all over and I don't allow unauthorized flash animations.
Google ads still appear for me, and those are often quite relevant, but one issue is that I don't purchase things online through random retailers FOR SECURITY REASONS, so those ads have little to no benefit to me.
If I want to buy something online, I'll go find a retailer rating website where I can choose a few good retailers to check out and make an educated decision from there and only purchase from reputable stores, regardless of the advertising.
I never called anyone stupid or called for the decline of slashdot, but I won't pretend that ads are super-duper effective, just so that you don't get upset.