I'll believe "'support nightmare' FUD", because thats what exactly what companies did with DOS. In the end Microsoft had 80% of the market, despite cheaper compatible products being out there.
For example, here's an exchange I had with technician in about 1993:
Goon Tech: "You're running IBM DOS on your PS/2. Only MS-DOS is 'supported' here." (Starts to type FDISK/MBR)
Me: "What do you mean 'supported'? Everyone here runs IBM Microchannel machines, and the MS EMM386 doesn't even work right on Microchannel! It crashes and won't recognize all of the memory!"
Tech: "Orders is orders. Ooog." (SYS)
You think it would be any better with off-brand Windows? IBM-brand Windows?
(And don't start going off about the DR-DOS detection code. It was in the Windows 3.1 BETA only. Not many saw it. Many folks successfully ran the Win3.1 with DR-DOS. There was a nice "Thank you for upgrading from OS/2 to MS-DOS 6.0 message", though.)
Microsoft also made a 8080 card for the Apple II that allowed you to run CP/M. That and the old Bus Mouse adaptor card is the only internal MS hardware I know of. --
Doesn't the Doom example cover this? Once everyone has a "Z" that does what once only your "Y" did, you can actually increase the value of your "Y" by open sourcing it. --
Unless you can offer some evidence that Windows 2000 "personal edition" will be Windows 9x-based, I say you're all wet.
And "Windows 98 Second Edition" does equal whatever you FUDmeisters are calling Windows 99 or whatever. It sounds like you are getting your news from IRC rather than the trade press. --
I'm not stammering - I was just pointing out that Xeon (big L2) verus K7 (small L2) is an illegitmate comparision, because folks usually pay the big bucks for Xeons to get the big L2.
A K7 will a large L2 and SMP support is certainly welcome here. Those Xeons are too damn expensive. --
I guess my point was not that it was difficult/impossible, just unlikely in the low-end motherboard market.
Merged firmware would be great though - I would love an x86 PC with a real boot firmware setup. Once you start adding lots of controllers and drives, the over-extended PC BIOS starts showing it's age.
Everyone seems to be speculating that K7 motherboards will accept Alphas without much problem. But there's actually a big problem - the Alpha uses a completely different BIOS/Firmware than a standard x86. (Doesn't the Alpha firmware have an 8086 emulator built-in in order to initialize ISA cards?)
I don't know what the cost or technical difficulties of a duel/swappable BIOS would be, but imagine that there's enough trouble there so that a you-pick Alpha/K7 board is not going to become a commodity item.
During the Phoenix-is-putting-ads-in-the-boot-sequence discussion, a guy from Dell's BIoS division posted, and his point was that creating a BIOS for a specific board is not an easy task. Considering that Alpha is essentially a workstation/server OS, the market could and probably will continue to bear the extra couple hundred bucks. --
You're flaming, but I'll take you seriously. The problem with your P100 is Windows 98, not Office. Run Windows 95 without the IE desktop on the same machine and it will be usable.
Hell, when Windows 95/Office 95 came out, a P100 with 24MB was top of the line. Saying it don't work is a little silly. --
- Microsoft has announced it will _not_ be unifying Win95/98 and NT with Windows 2000, but rather there will be yet another consumer version based on the old 95/98 code (Windows 99?)
It's called "Windows 98 Second Edition", and I think it's out.
As for 9x/NT unification - it's going to happen, unless Windows 2000 bombs bigger than MS-DOS 4.0
(And you're right, many games are going to break. Perhaps they will include a "DOS Mode" in Win2000 Home User Edition. What's more likely in the long term from Microsoft is is WinCE-based home producivity/game/internet devices that don't have the complexity of 'real' computers.)
You should look at Windows 2000 before thinking too much more about MS-Unix. They've pretty much reinvented everything that Unix has got. (Except maybe the uptimes.)
Also, don't forget that the OS is only part of MS's business. Microsoft BSD doesn't do them alot of good if Exchange or SQL Server doesn't run on it. --
Places I've worked at commonly throw old Adaptec ISA controllers in the junk bins never to be seen again until someone rips them off. You might want to check Ebay - an ISA SCSI card + older CD-ROM shouldn't set you back that much. There are also newer 'budget' PCI SCSI cards with no BIOS, which I think is OK if you are booting from IDE. --
Couldn't Microsoft ship a GPL XFS as an installable file system for WinNT? Of course they would have to ship the source code, but they already do that for things like Perl.(Perhaps I am confused on the GPL and what it means to 'link' to GPLed code.)
Anyways, I'm not sure if XFS has been GPLed. It could be another licence. --
Actually, if it was "C>", and not "C:\>", it probably wasn't a gaffe - it probably was supposed to be CP/M. ("Winchester Drives" for CP/M machines weren't extremely uncommon. Since Microsoft was biggest development tools vendor for CP/M, it's pretty likely that they would have a few!)
I had a MS Z80 board also, and it came with "Micro Soft CP/M for the Apple II". No DR brandname. --
I have some circa 1988 MacWorld magazines around somewhere. Pretty funny stuff in there like "There's going to be a GUI for IBMs called OS/2 Presentation Manager. There's going to be a PageMaker port. Oh No!! (But we aren't really worried because the Mac will always be the best computer.)" Pretty funny because Windows was already on version 2. --
Since you have on-board AMD ethernet, I'm guessing that you have a Deskpro XL, which is an EISA machine. Most EISA computers have the "four floppies" (aka the EISA Config program) on a small partition at the beginning of the disk. Just press F10 on a Compaq when the cursor flashes in the upper left corner.
While you're at it, you might want to upgrade your BIOS. Newer EISA BIOSes allow you to config plug-n-play ISA cards right in the Config program.
Some non-EISA Compaqs also have a 'system partition' which runs a different config program. Others run from the ROM in the traditional fashion. Either way, on a correctly set up Compaq, F10 is your friend. --
Good point, except you don't need all of that stuff to run a web server or DNS server or file server or firewall (which are probably Linux's primary production uses right now).
If people stopped looking at this like some epic battle of the Gods, and thought rationally about what to use where and when, some of this would become more clear. Innovation is nice, but it usually comes at the price of speed or stablity. --
It doesn't seem right that the inventor of Ethernet, of all people, would tout "23/6 availability" as a good thing
I think you and about 100 other people on this thread missed the irony in this statement. He was saying that NT has alot of momentum despite *not* being all that reliable. --
I've read Shulman's book. I think his argument is that 95 is *Windows for Workgroups 3.11* in a clown suit. (This was when MS was pushing 95 as "all new".)
In short, the system boots in real mode DOS, and potentially (but ususally not nowdays) loads some drivers. WIN.COM throws the system in protected mode, and virtualized DOS is only used for legacy driver support and one or two other minor things. --
You're right of course about x86 Linux/BSD workstations being an important wedge against the small, but high-profit, marketshare RISC Unix workstations still have. (That occurred to me about 2 seconds after I pressed Submit!)
Still, I would guess that Intel had it's engineering resources over at Microsoft and Borland optimizing their Windows compilers before the Pentium II even shipped. Maybe they're all done now, so they can start work on GCC!
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I'll believe "'support nightmare' FUD", because thats what exactly what companies did with DOS. In the end Microsoft had 80% of the market, despite cheaper compatible products being out there.
/MBR)
For example, here's an exchange I had with technician in about 1993:
Goon Tech: "You're running IBM DOS on your PS/2. Only MS-DOS is 'supported' here." (Starts to type FDISK
Me: "What do you mean 'supported'? Everyone here runs IBM Microchannel machines, and the MS EMM386 doesn't even work right on Microchannel! It crashes and won't recognize all of the memory!"
Tech: "Orders is orders. Ooog." (SYS)
You think it would be any better with off-brand Windows? IBM-brand Windows?
(And don't start going off about the DR-DOS detection code. It was in the Windows 3.1 BETA only. Not many saw it. Many folks successfully ran the Win3.1 with DR-DOS. There was a nice "Thank you for upgrading from OS/2 to MS-DOS 6.0 message", though.)
--
Microsoft also made a 8080 card for the Apple II that allowed you to run CP/M. That and the old Bus Mouse adaptor card is the only internal MS hardware I know of.
--
Microsoft Multiplan for the TI 99/4A on cartridge.
--
Pretty good Linux advocacy parody!
--
Doesn't the Doom example cover this? Once everyone has a "Z" that does what once only your "Y" did, you can actually increase the value of your "Y" by open sourcing it.
--
Unless you can offer some evidence that Windows 2000 "personal edition" will be Windows 9x-based, I say you're all wet.
And "Windows 98 Second Edition" does equal whatever you FUDmeisters are calling Windows 99 or whatever. It sounds like you are getting your news from IRC rather than the trade press.
--
I'm not stammering - I was just pointing out that Xeon (big L2) verus K7 (small L2) is an illegitmate comparision, because folks usually pay the big bucks for Xeons to get the big L2.
A K7 will a large L2 and SMP support is certainly welcome here. Those Xeons are too damn expensive.
--
I guess my point was not that it was difficult/impossible, just unlikely in the low-end motherboard market.
Merged firmware would be great though - I would love an x86 PC with a real boot firmware setup. Once you start adding lots of controllers and drives, the over-extended PC BIOS starts showing it's age.
--
Everyone seems to be speculating that K7 motherboards will accept Alphas without much problem. But there's actually a big problem - the Alpha uses a completely different BIOS/Firmware than a standard x86. (Doesn't the Alpha firmware have an 8086 emulator built-in in order to initialize ISA cards?)
I don't know what the cost or technical difficulties of a duel/swappable BIOS would be, but imagine that there's enough trouble there so that a you-pick Alpha/K7 board is not going to become a commodity item.
During the Phoenix-is-putting-ads-in-the-boot-sequence discussion, a guy from Dell's BIoS division posted, and his point was that creating a BIOS for a specific board is not an easy task. Considering that Alpha is essentially a workstation/server OS, the market could and probably will continue to bear the extra couple hundred bucks.
--
IBM's attempt to take on Microsoft - OS/2
IBM's attempt to take on Intel - PowerPersonal/PReP.
'Nuff Said.
--
Oh yeah? What sort of cache does the K7 have?
(There's a reason that the old Pro-200s can out benchmark a standard Pentium III. Of course, it depends if you are running Quake or databases)
--
You're flaming, but I'll take you seriously. The problem with your P100 is Windows 98, not Office. Run Windows 95 without the IE desktop on the same machine and it will be usable.
Hell, when Windows 95/Office 95 came out, a P100 with 24MB was top of the line. Saying it don't work is a little silly.
--
- Microsoft has announced it will _not_ be unifying Win95/98 and NT with Windows 2000, but rather there will be yet another consumer version based on the old 95/98 code (Windows 99?)
It's called "Windows 98 Second Edition", and I think it's out.
As for 9x/NT unification - it's going to happen, unless Windows 2000 bombs bigger than MS-DOS 4.0
(And you're right, many games are going to break. Perhaps they will include a "DOS Mode" in Win2000 Home User Edition. What's more likely in the long term from Microsoft is is WinCE-based home producivity/game/internet devices that don't have the complexity of 'real' computers.)
--
You should look at Windows 2000 before thinking too much more about MS-Unix. They've pretty much reinvented everything that Unix has got. (Except maybe the uptimes.)
Also, don't forget that the OS is only part of MS's business. Microsoft BSD doesn't do them alot of good if Exchange or SQL Server doesn't run on it.
--
Places I've worked at commonly throw old Adaptec ISA controllers in the junk bins never to be seen again until someone rips them off. You might want to check Ebay - an ISA SCSI card + older CD-ROM shouldn't set you back that much. There are also newer 'budget' PCI SCSI cards with no BIOS, which I think is OK if you are booting from IDE.
--
Couldn't Microsoft ship a GPL XFS as an installable file system for WinNT? Of course they would have to ship the source code, but they already do that for things like Perl.(Perhaps I am confused on the GPL and what it means to 'link' to GPLed code.)
Anyways, I'm not sure if XFS has been GPLed. It could be another licence.
--
Actually, if it was "C>", and not "C:\>", it probably wasn't a gaffe - it probably was supposed to be CP/M. ("Winchester Drives" for CP/M machines weren't extremely uncommon. Since Microsoft was biggest development tools vendor for CP/M, it's pretty likely that they would have a few!)
I had a MS Z80 board also, and it came with "Micro Soft CP/M for the Apple II". No DR brandname.
--
Maybe both is true. I've heard Kildall was stinking drunk when IBM came to visit.
--
I have some circa 1988 MacWorld magazines around somewhere. Pretty funny stuff in there like "There's going to be a GUI for IBMs called OS/2 Presentation Manager. There's going to be a PageMaker port. Oh No!! (But we aren't really worried because the Mac will always be the best computer.)" Pretty funny because Windows was already on version 2.
--
Since you have on-board AMD ethernet, I'm guessing that you have a Deskpro XL, which is an EISA machine. Most EISA computers have the "four floppies" (aka the EISA Config program) on a small partition at the beginning of the disk. Just press F10 on a Compaq when the cursor flashes in the upper left corner.
While you're at it, you might want to upgrade your BIOS. Newer EISA BIOSes allow you to config plug-n-play ISA cards right in the Config program.
Some non-EISA Compaqs also have a 'system partition' which runs a different config program. Others run from the ROM in the traditional fashion. Either way, on a correctly set up Compaq, F10 is your friend.
--
Good point, except you don't need all of that stuff to run a web server or DNS server or file server or firewall (which are probably Linux's primary production uses right now).
If people stopped looking at this like some epic battle of the Gods, and thought rationally about what to use where and when, some of this would become more clear. Innovation is nice, but it usually comes at the price of speed or stablity.
--
Ever wonder why Microsoft run their website on NT 3.51?
Netcraft.com says:
www.microsoft.com is running Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows NT5 beta
!
--
It doesn't seem right that the inventor of Ethernet, of all people, would tout "23/6 availability" as a good thing
I think you and about 100 other people on this thread missed the irony in this statement. He was saying that NT has alot of momentum despite *not* being all that reliable.
--
I've read Shulman's book. I think his argument is that 95 is *Windows for Workgroups 3.11* in a clown suit. (This was when MS was pushing 95 as "all new".)
In short, the system boots in real mode DOS, and potentially (but ususally not nowdays) loads some drivers. WIN.COM throws the system in protected mode, and virtualized DOS is only used for legacy driver support and one or two other minor things.
--
You're right of course about x86 Linux/BSD workstations being an important wedge against the small, but high-profit, marketshare RISC Unix workstations still have. (That occurred to me about 2 seconds after I pressed Submit!)
Still, I would guess that Intel had it's engineering resources over at Microsoft and Borland optimizing their Windows compilers before the Pentium II even shipped. Maybe they're all done now, so they can start work on GCC!
--