WRONG. Debian is a non-profit entity under the umbrella of the non-profit Software in Public Interest Inc. The Debian Project itself never sells any CD-ROMs for profit. Rather, it accepts donations from other individuals or vendors who sell Debian or Debian-based products.
> So, in other words, the bible is only a metaphor. SO if
> it's not TRUE, then why even bother?
WRONG. The word "Bible" means a "collection of books", and indeed, when you open the Bible, you will see many different books, about 72 (or 66) of them.:-)
This hints at the fact that the Bible contains literary works of many different genres. Some of them tell facts: for example, the Gospels tells the life of Jesus. Some books are written in prose, some in poetry form; some tell real stories that actually happened; some tell parables that mean to teach us something. Some are praises to God, some are lamentations asking God for help. And yes, all these can be the Word of God. Whoever said that God only speak "Newspeak" and can't speak poetry?
God can use many different ways to deliver His message. The important thing is that He gets the message across. And thank God, not the entire Bible reads like a technical report or history book, for if that were the case, the Bible would be a really dry book!:-)
Yes, they do have the CD-ROM images available for download, but please DO NOT download it now. Wait till at least August or September when they have finished upgrading their network, or perhaps when there is a mirror site from outside China.
Why? Because, like most other Chinese Internet services, their connection to outside China is currently astronomically expensive, and one single download of their ISO image from overseas costs them thousands of dollars! I am not kidding. A survey in China shows that the cost of Internet access is 2000 times higher than in the United States. (after including factors like income levels). This problem will be solved in the future.
Yes, I have been in contact via e-mail lately with some staff at Red Flag, and they are indeed very sincere, professional and friendly, and are indeed trying their best to meet the requirements of GPL. They have always made their source code (the non-proprietary portion) available on CD-ROMs. They have already all their packages as SRPMS on a 3rd party server, which is not open to connection from outside China yet, again due to the astronomical cost of transnational connection.
Please, be patient with them. Many Chinese GNU/Linux developers are trying to do the best they can to develop and to meet GPL requirements even with the limited resources they have. Call me childish if you may, but I for one have complete trust in my fellow Chinese and fellow free software developers in Mainland China.
No, as soon as the archive manager(s) have a chance to check in the new files. That's why these packages are stuck in Incoming.
qt2.1 (and its binary packages libqt2.1 and libqt2.1-dev) are new packages, so they require manual editing to the Debian package list before they are taken in. Note that qt2.0 has been in Debian for some time now, and is used by packages like licq and qcad.
Now, if only KDE would contact the authors of non-KDE-originated GPL'ed code and ask them to add the exception clause...
I think you can still use the.deb provided by Opera. You'll just have to install the latest libqt2.1.deb package too. It is still in Incoming, i.e. not officially part of unstable (woody) yet, but it'll be soon. It should work with potato (Debian 2.2) too. Get it here:
Hear! Hear! Hurray for BioWare of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada!:-) I am really glad that they are doing so well, and indeed, the people there are really nice, and I am lucky to know one of them personally (John W.). Keep up the great work!:-)
Hmm... I should have expected that you would say that (about fantasizing).:-) Indeed, we are getting into a somewhat controversial topic, and I am sure the majority of people would agree with your viewpoint that fantasizing "helps" release sexual pleasure. At least one of my friend (a devout Catholic youth) used to think so too. And I would be lying if I were to say I never fantasize, although nowadays I try my best to avoid having such thoughts at all.
But the fact that many people think it is alright doesn't mean it is right. "Release" becomes an excuse, and while for many people, they could still somewhat control themselves before going too far, but for many others, sexual fantasies lead them to a slippery slope.
St. Maria Goretti (11 years old) was murdered by Alessandro (19 years old) when she refused Alessandro's rape attempt. Maria was pure at heart, while Alessandro was full of impure thoughts... his room was full of pornographical magazines and posters... Impure thoughts and pornography, as illustrated in this tragedy, are not releases, but rather, fuel to Alessandro's sexual desire to the point that he tried to rape little Maria, and when she refused, he stabbed her 14 times and left her to die. Would he even had thought of raping her had he not been mesmerized and his moral desensitized by pornography?
Regarding prostitutes: The Church does not shun them. (At least we shouldn't.) There are quite a few canonized saints who were once prostitutes before their conversion. The most famous of all is probably St. Mary Magdalen, the Penitent. You might know her story in the Bible: She was nearly stoned to death when the Pharisees caught her in the very act of adultery. When they brought her to Jesus, Jesus asked them whoever has no sin can cast the first stone. The Pharisees hesitated and finally escaped one by one. Jesus then forgave her sin, and said, "Go now in peace, and sin no more." From then on, St. Mary Magdalen left her old sinful way of life, and became a devout follower of Jesus. Just like Jesus had loved her unconditionally, St. Mary Magdalen pour out her love for God too.
Prostitution is sin... but, we hate the sin and love the sinner. In many aspects, prostitutes are victims of our society.
I don't think the Church is being double-standard in this regard. The Church is rather consistent, actually, and some would even say, "radical or "extreme". Raping is wrong, that we all know. Premarital sex? Why not? It is just casual fun, right? Fantasizing about sex is a sin? You've gotta be kidding! And yet, the Church is not budging to public pressure. Afterall, the Church cannot teach against what Jesus taught us: "Whenever a man look upon a woman with lust, he has already commited adultery with her in his heart."
Yes, I realize that perhaps over 90% of Slashdot readers would disagree with what I wrote above. However, to me, to my family, and to many of my friends, Jesus' teaching make perfect sense.
Anthony
P.S. Well, there are lots of people who are anti-religious, so if you are indeed one, you are not alone. However, I do hope that you were just kidding about being an anti-religious nut.:-)
(Note: I am sometimes using "he" instead of "he/she" for simplicity sake. I am not trying to be sexist.:-)
I must confess (no pun intended) that the way I have explained original sin was somewhat misleading. The word "pride" has many meanings. Sometimes, being proud of oneself is a Good Thing, but sometimes too much pride can be destructive (e.g. a person suffering from addiction but too proud to seek help).
As you said, It is good for one to be proud of being who he is and of the things that he do. However, one must also be humble at the same time, acknowledging the fact that his talents is a gift from above (God).
Trying to be like God is good too. Afterall, in the Bible, there are passages that tell us "Be perfect, because your Father in heaven is perfect." And we are all supposed to imitate Christ to learn in His way. I see that I wasn't very clear in my explanation in my last message.
What I was trying to say, is when a person become so proud (in a negative sense) thinking he is the end all and be all, thus trying to be his/her own god, in the process forgetting our true God, the person becomes so selfish and so self-centred that he cut himself off from the community, and even from the grace of God. This kind of pride, i.e. when one basically turns away from God, thinking he knows better and think he can do anything (esp. bad things) as he wish without regard for God, is a cardinal sin, because many other sins stem from it.
Have you watched the movie "Where dreams come from"? (I forgot the name... Robert Williams is in it.) His wife suicided and was in hell because she was so wrapped up in herself and no one (not even God if she doesn't let Him) could reach her. Fortunately, in the movie, when Robert Williams (Chris) decided to join her that she was finally awaken, and they both returned to heaven. Unfortunately, there are many loss souls who never awakes from such hell.
Disclaimer: I am no theologian, so the way I have explained it might be misleading, but I guess you see what I mean. It is not just the teaching of the Catholic Church, but in a sense, it is traditional wisdom/ethnical teaching that is universal to everyone even to someone with no religious background.
Now, as for the Sacrament of Reconciliation, note the emphasis on "reconciling" to God and to the community. I see your point of someone feeling guilty, but guilt exists not because of this sacrament. Afterall, even before we go to confession, God has already forgiven us, but God would still like us to go to Him and say "I am sorry." And nothing is more reassuring when the priest says "I absolve you from all your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Go now in peace, your sins are forgiven." (Note that God is doing the forgiving and absolving. The priest is acting on behalf of God, as taught by Jesus: "What you loosen on Earth would be loosen in Heaven".)
Oh, last but not least: Having impure thoughts is not a sin. Afterall, bad thoughts pop into our minds from time to time even when we do not will it. The right thing to do is, when such impure thoughts come, try to chase them away by thinking something good or doing some productive things to distract ourselves. We only sin if we choose to indulge in such impure thoughts, as in "Oooh, hey, this is a neat idea! It feels good! Let's keep fantasizing it (e.g. fantasizing having sex with some TV star)!" Now, that's sinning. I know many Slashdotters would say "Ya right!" and tell me to get lost at this point. But seriously, although such fantasizing may seem harmless, it is tempting the person to go the next step, then the next step, etc. Not to mention that the person is becoming less respectful of women since he is using them as "objects" for his own sexual pleasure, even if it was in his mind in the beginning.
Case in point: For the parents here, would you like your young child to be fantasizing having sex? I don't think so. "Yeah, they are children, so it is not okay for them, but we are adults and so it is okay for us." Answer: Double standard.
Hmmm... I know I am sounding a bit self-righteous, so let me say this: I have been there, and now I realize the destructive effects such impure thoughts are having on me and on the relationships I have with others.
Well, that's all for now.:-) Have a nice day.:-)
Anthony (who's wondering what he has gotten into.:-)
What is sinning anyway? According to the Church, thr original sin is SEX.
Wrong. According to the Bible, as in the story of Adam and Eve, their original sin stems from pride... They wanted to be like God; they wanted to be their own God, that they ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, disobeying God's command, and then they lied about it. Their eyes were indeed open, for before they only knew good and knew no evil, but now they do. They lost their innocence.
Sex is good. Indeed, it is very good. It is a wonderful gift from God, who, in His infinite love, wants to share His creation power with us humans: He gave us the power to procreate and populate the Earth. In its true form, sex is an ultimate expression of love of a husband and wife, and through this union God works His miracle to create new life.
We do not sin merely by having sex, but rather, we sin when we abuse this amazing gift and power. Just look at what is happening today, especially after the so-called "sex revolution". Teenage pregancy, single mothers, abortion, AIDS, STDs, high divorce rate partly due to the widespread of premarital sex... The Church, as a vicar of Christ, is not trying to condemn the world; rather, she is trying to tell the world, "please obey God, otherwise you will get hurt." God is just like our loving parents who want to protect their children from harm.
I won't say that the Church had been perfect all these centuries. There were times when the way the Church treated such problems only made people feel guilty and worthless. However, those were human errors, not to mention that many of us did not know better, especially in the old days.
Confession is a wonderful sacrament given to us by Jesus Christ himself. It is also called the Sacrament of Reconciliation, to help us to turn our back on our sinful ways and return to God our Father. The priest who hears the confession is like a telephone line that connects you to God, because God Himself is the Counsellor and Healer. This sacrament, again, is not to condemn, but to love and heal. Some devout Catholic goes to confession regularly (e.g. once a month) even if they have commited no grave sins. It is a great way to deepen our faith and come closer to God. Our Pope John Paul II goes to confession once a week.
The Vatican II Council was one of the milestones in which the Church reforms to truly care for people in a kinder, gentler way.
Vatican does not have as much cash as you may think. Yes, Vatican Museum with lots of art treasures etc. I am no expert in this area, but do you expect the Church officials just selling everything away, in a sense destroying our rich Catholic heritage---e.g. all the great artworks that artists from all ages created to glorify God. Their God-inspired masterpieces become inspirations for us all. The Church of course needs to safeguard and protect these treasures. Anyone can go to see them in the Vatican Museum I think.:-)
Yes, Vatican may have quite a bit of assets, but many are non-movable ones (e.g. St. Peter's Square), and probably much are pertual funds for supporting the Vatican's day-to-day operation and the worldwide Church, and for emergencies. No, the cash are not there for the Church officials' personal pleasure.
Also, part of the cash that Vatican receives comes from donations from groups such as the Knights of Columbus worldwide. These donations, again, are not meant to stuff the wallets of Church officials, but rather for worthy causes, e.g. restoring the St. Peter's Church, support of missionary works, for Catholic Development and Peace (aid to third world countries; "teaching them how to fish so they can fish for life", for disasters reliefs, etc.
And no, the money you give to your local parishes do not go to Vatican. They stay local. Besides supporting the Church maintenance and help feed the parish priests and staff, the money also goes towards local charity, towards church programs that support members and others in need (e.g. death in family, addiction), help sponsoring refugees arriving from Kosovo, etc. It is up to the parishioners of each parish to decide how the money is spent. (Talk to your parish council.:-)
Hmm... I may be sounding a bit defensive, but my point is, please don't ridicule or defame the Church (e.g. the Roman Catholic) just because of personal bias or misconceptions or half-truths held by others. Also, please don't judge the Church and condemn it/her as a whole just because the bad deeds of a few. Hey, we Catholics are human too, and we too do err, but that does not mean the whole Church is at fault.
On the other hand, many (cradle) Roman Catholics themselves have lots of misconceptions of the Church, and some left the Church because of such misconceptions, without ever experiencing or realizing the fullness, richness and truth of our faith. So, sometimes it is hard for non-Catholics not to have such misconceptions, especially in this material age where the Church's stance is opposite from that of the popular media and secular world.
I just hope that my last few posts, however imperfect they may be, may help clear up some of the misconceptions/prejudice and get people thinking instead of just saying that "institutionalized religions are social evils and are Bad Things(TM)".
Joy and love, so long as you do *exactly* as the church think you should.
Joy and love are gifts given to all of us by God. It radiates from within you and everyone.
We Christians (incl. Roman Catholics) are not drones (?). We don't blindly follow orders. Besides, that is not what the Church is about. Rather, the Church is a community started by Jesus Christ himself and continued by many faithful and apostles to spread the Gospel--The Good News, the message of joy and love. And it is not "what the Church thinks". Rather, the Church is acting as the messager of what Jesus Christ (our Lord and God) told us, telling us the way to happiness.
We are not Borgs. We won't assimilate people and force them to do things. Rather, we try to evangelize and share the Gospel. There may seem to be many rules, but they are not there so that the Church would punish anyone who break the rules. Rather, they are like rules of thumb, Golden rules of life: a person who sins (breaks the rule) would get hurt or would hurt the people around him/her, directly or indirectly. The rules are, in a way, made by God to protect us, just like how a loving father and mother would set rules for their children so that they won't get hurt.
I myself am one of the biggest sinners. Oh yeah, I have screwed up many times, and in the process I have hurt myself and the people I love. And yet, God is so unconditionally loving and forgiving that He loves me deeply nonetheless and always tries to lead me closer to Him. That is the miracle, the Gospel: God is Love. In Him we find true happiness, because, afterall, He was the Creator of the universe and the Author of life. Who knows us better than God?:-)
1.1 billion people believe in a Roman Catholic god. Why don't they believe in a Protestant god or a Jewish god? Because it is faith.
That's a wrong statement. Believe it or not, We all believe in the same God. Roman Catholics and Protestants may have different views on the finer points of theology, but we have a lot more in common than the ways we differ. We believe in the same God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Trinity. God is love, and He loves the world so much that despite our sinfulness He still loves us unconditionally and even sent His only begotten Son Jesus to show us the way to the truth, the life, the way. He died on the cross for us in atonement for our sins, and on the third day He rose again from the dead, conquering sin and death. This is our Christian faith. Despite our differences (RC and Prot), we are united in Christ Jesus, and that's why we are all called Christians.
The God that Jewish believes in is the same God that we Christians do. The difference is that they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Messiah proclaimed in the scripture (Old Testament). Nonetheless, we enjoy the fact that we share in the worship the same merciful and loving God, and we also thank the Jews for much of our Christian traditions. Afterall, Jesus Himself is a Jew when He came to earth.:-) The Jewish scripture is very much identical to what the Christians know as the Old Testament. And many of the Christian traditions have their roots from our Jewish brothers and sisters.
It is irrational and based upon arbitrary axioms. Time and time again these axioms have been refuted and the RCC change their tune (unwillingly of course) and continue to preach the rest of the axioms until the next one is refuted.
My friend, faith and reason goes hand in hand. If the Roman Catholic Church is as irrational as you have claimed, don't you think I would have left the Church a long time ago?
I don't understand where you got the notion that the Church is based upon arbitrary axioms. On contrary, in fact, seeing that the Roman Catholic Church never budged on its stance against abortion and birth control, despite popular outcry even from some Catholics. Why? The Church could have easily bowed to public pressure and say "abortion and birth control are okay". Heck, if they did that, I am sure the Church would receive a LOT less ridicule and more people may join the Church. Why didn't they? Some may say that "Oh, the Roman Catholic Church is just an old, stubborn, oppressive patriachal hierarchy who likes to impose its view on everyone and tell everyone what to do." Are they? I mean, are there special "Bishop Squads" everywhere patrolling on the streets and coming to your doorstep and condemning people, saying "You have sinned! You are going to hell!"?
The late Archbishop Fulton Sheen once wrote: "There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Roman Catholic Church; there are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church."
Opportunism and a need to be in power. That is what it is. Sadly many people have a need to have complex things explained to them. When no real explanation can be provided they will take whatever is and then religion takes charge again.
Seems like you consider a religion to be nothing more than superstition and a haven from complex matter. Hmm...
Well, all I can say, is that what you have described is not the Church that I know. Instead, to me, the Church is a wonderful community, like a big family, vibrant with joy and love, where people gather to share and to seek Truth. Friendship blossoms and lasts a lifetime. True, the Church is not perfect, but the most important thing is the presence of God among us.:-) One of the songs from the 1970's goes like this: "Yes they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love; Yes they'll know we are Christians by our love." Yeah, I know, even one of my best friend (she's Catholic) says the song is cheesy, but we all agree that it is true, for without love, we are nothing, and the Church would become nothing but an empty shell.
Since logic doesn't apply to faith it is impossible to have an argument about faith without the participants questioning the said axioms. Without the axioms faith is doomed though and without faith there is no religion.
And I challenge you to examine your own logic in your statement. Perhaps you have been so indoctrinated about the irrationality and illogicity of faith and religion, that you simply become close minded and refuse to believe or even discuss the possibility of logic and rationality in faith?
Our Holy Father John Paul II has recently written an encyclical titled Fides et Ratio, or Faith and Reason in English (the direct link isn't working because Slashdot was adding an extra space after one of the underscore. Maybe the URL was too long. Just click on the link and then click on Fides et Ratio on the encyclical index page). I haven't read it yet, but I heard that is really good. Take a look, even just a quick glance. I hope you'd like it.:-)
Let me take the liberty of quoting the first paragraph: "Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth-in a word, to know himself-so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2)."
There may be a "god" or it may not. I don't know and since I don't know it would be stupid to desperately make things up. Heck, "god" might be a bum in NYC, but since that isn't "far out" enough people won't believe that.
I see. Hmm... To be honest with you, there were times in my life where I have doubted whether God exists or nor. Don't worry, I won't try to force "God" down your throat. All I can say is, keep an open mind, and don't ever stop searching for the truth. Afterall, didn't Jesus say, "Seek, and you shall find; ask, and you shall be given"? You may be surprised at what you find.
Take care, and God bless,
Anthony Fok, foka@ualberta.ca Debian developer, and Roman Catholic:-)
I don't know the details of European history, but in the case of Henry VIII, he was starting his own Church of England for very selfish reasons (e.g. to divorce his wives and to remarry), and he killed many people who opposed him, even his own former Lord Chanceller Sir Thomas More (now a saint). The "court" cut Thomas' head off and put it on top of the London Bridge for all to see. Henry VIII was an outright tyrant, and you tell me that the Pope was at fault?
> > Why NOT a patron saint for the 'Net? > I think the question is better as why? What purpose will it serve?
Good question. I can't answer that either, but it is something to think about. For me, the saint's life will remind me and make me reflect on what I am doing on the Internet, and help me search for knowledge and do the Right Thing(TM) according to God's will.
Anthony (Practising Catholic and a Debian semi-developer.:-)
Slashdot Mirror
WRONG. Debian is a non-profit entity under the umbrella of the non-profit Software in Public Interest Inc. The Debian Project itself never sells any CD-ROMs for profit. Rather, it accepts donations from other individuals or vendors who sell Debian or Debian-based products.
> So, in other words, the bible is only a metaphor. SO if
:-)
:-)
> it's not TRUE, then why even bother?
WRONG. The word "Bible" means a "collection of books", and indeed, when you open the Bible, you will see many different books, about 72 (or 66) of them.
This hints at the fact that the Bible contains literary works of many different genres. Some of them tell facts: for example, the Gospels tells the life of Jesus. Some books are written in prose, some in poetry form; some tell real stories that actually happened; some tell parables that mean to teach us something. Some are praises to God, some are lamentations asking God for help. And yes, all these can be the Word of God. Whoever said that God only speak "Newspeak" and can't speak poetry?
God can use many different ways to deliver His message. The important thing is that He gets the message across. And thank God, not the entire Bible reads like a technical report or history book, for if that were the case, the Bible would be a really dry book!
Anthony
Yes, they do have the CD-ROM images available for download, but please DO NOT download it now. Wait till at least August or September when they have finished upgrading their network, or perhaps when there is a mirror site from outside China.
Why? Because, like most other Chinese Internet services, their connection to outside China is currently astronomically expensive, and one single download of their ISO image from overseas costs them thousands of dollars! I am not kidding. A survey in China shows that the cost of Internet access is 2000 times higher than in the United States. (after including factors like income levels). This problem will be solved in the future.
Yes, I have been in contact via e-mail lately with some staff at Red Flag, and they are indeed very sincere, professional and friendly, and are indeed trying their best to meet the requirements of GPL. They have always made their source code (the non-proprietary portion) available on CD-ROMs. They have already all their packages as SRPMS on a 3rd party server, which is not open to connection from outside China yet, again due to the astronomical cost of transnational connection.
Please, be patient with them. Many Chinese GNU/Linux developers are trying to do the best they can to develop and to meet GPL requirements even with the limited resources they have. Call me childish if you may, but I for one have complete trust in my fellow Chinese and fellow free software developers in Mainland China.
Anthony Fok
Debian GNU/Linux developer
Debian Chinese Project participant
http://www.debian.org/international/chinese/
No, as soon as the archive manager(s) have a chance to check in the new files. That's why these packages are stuck in Incoming.
qt2.1 (and its binary packages libqt2.1 and libqt2.1-dev) are new packages, so they require manual editing to the Debian package list before they are taken in. Note that qt2.0 has been in Debian for some time now, and is used by packages like licq and qcad.
Now, if only KDE would contact the authors of non-KDE-originated GPL'ed code and ask them to add the exception clause...
Anthony
Potato is frozen, and Qt2.1 came out after Potato got frozen. Get this instead:
And then do this (potentially risky):
It works for me! :-)
Anthony Fok
One of 500+ Debian developers
I think you can still use the .deb provided by Opera. You'll just have to install the latest libqt2.1 .deb package too. It is still in Incoming, i.e. not officially part of unstable (woody) yet, but it'll be soon. It should work with potato (Debian 2.2) too. Get it here:
I am downloading it for myself right now. I hope it works. :-)
Anthony Fok
(One of the 500+ Debian developers)
Hear! Hear! Hurray for BioWare of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada! :-) I am really glad that they are doing so well, and indeed, the people there are really nice, and I am lucky to know one of them personally (John W.). Keep up the great work! :-)
> A-theism = "Without Theism"
Shouldn't that be "a-the-ism"?
a: without
the(o): God
ism: ideology/belief
i.e., the ideology/belief that there is no God.
The way you broke it up ("a-theism" or "without Theism") doesn't quite make sense.
Hmm... I should have expected that you would say that (about fantasizing). :-) Indeed, we are getting into a somewhat controversial topic, and I am sure the majority of people would agree with your viewpoint that fantasizing "helps" release sexual pleasure. At least one of my friend (a devout Catholic youth) used to think so too. And I would be lying if I were to say I never fantasize, although nowadays I try my best to avoid having such thoughts at all.
:-)
But the fact that many people think it is alright doesn't mean it is right. "Release" becomes an excuse, and while for many people, they could still somewhat control themselves before going too far, but for many others, sexual fantasies lead them to a slippery slope.
St. Maria Goretti (11 years old) was murdered by Alessandro (19 years old) when she refused Alessandro's rape attempt. Maria was pure at heart, while Alessandro was full of impure thoughts... his room was full of pornographical magazines and posters... Impure thoughts and pornography, as illustrated in this tragedy, are not releases, but rather, fuel to Alessandro's sexual desire to the point that he tried to rape little Maria, and when she refused, he stabbed her 14 times and left her to die. Would he even had thought of raping her had he not been mesmerized and his moral desensitized by pornography?
Regarding prostitutes: The Church does not shun them. (At least we shouldn't.) There are quite a few canonized saints who were once prostitutes before their conversion. The most famous of all is probably St. Mary Magdalen, the Penitent. You might know her story in the Bible: She was nearly stoned to death when the Pharisees caught her in the very act of adultery. When they brought her to Jesus, Jesus asked them whoever has no sin can cast the first stone. The Pharisees hesitated and finally escaped one by one. Jesus then forgave her sin, and said, "Go now in peace, and sin no more." From then on, St. Mary Magdalen left her old sinful way of life, and became a devout follower of Jesus. Just like Jesus had loved her unconditionally, St. Mary Magdalen pour out her love for God too.
Prostitution is sin... but, we hate the sin and love the sinner. In many aspects, prostitutes are victims of our society.
I don't think the Church is being double-standard in this regard. The Church is rather consistent, actually, and some would even say, "radical or "extreme". Raping is wrong, that we all know. Premarital sex? Why not? It is just casual fun, right? Fantasizing about sex is a sin? You've gotta be kidding! And yet, the Church is not budging to public pressure. Afterall, the Church cannot teach against what Jesus taught us: "Whenever a man look upon a woman with lust, he has already commited adultery with her in his heart."
Yes, I realize that perhaps over 90% of Slashdot readers would disagree with what I wrote above. However, to me, to my family, and to many of my friends, Jesus' teaching make perfect sense.
Anthony
P.S. Well, there are lots of people who are anti-religious, so if you are indeed one, you are not alone. However, I do hope that you were just kidding about being an anti-religious nut.
Hi again.
:-)
:-) Have a nice day. :-)
:-)
(Note: I am sometimes using "he" instead of "he/she" for simplicity sake. I am not trying to be sexist.
I must confess (no pun intended) that the way I have explained original sin was somewhat misleading. The word "pride" has many meanings. Sometimes, being proud of oneself is a Good Thing, but sometimes too much pride can be destructive (e.g. a person suffering from addiction but too proud to seek help).
As you said, It is good for one to be proud of being who he is and of the things that he do. However, one must also be humble at the same time, acknowledging the fact that his talents is a gift from above (God).
Trying to be like God is good too. Afterall, in the Bible, there are passages that tell us "Be perfect, because your Father in heaven is perfect." And we are all supposed to imitate Christ to learn in His way. I see that I wasn't very clear in my explanation in my last message.
What I was trying to say, is when a person become so proud (in a negative sense) thinking he is the end all and be all, thus trying to be his/her own god, in the process forgetting our true God, the person becomes so selfish and so self-centred that he cut himself off from the community, and even from the grace of God. This kind of pride, i.e. when one basically turns away from God, thinking he knows better and think he can do anything (esp. bad things) as he wish without regard for God, is a cardinal sin, because many other sins stem from it.
Have you watched the movie "Where dreams come from"? (I forgot the name... Robert Williams is in it.) His wife suicided and was in hell because she was so wrapped up in herself and no one (not even God if she doesn't let Him) could reach her. Fortunately, in the movie, when Robert Williams (Chris) decided to join her that she was finally awaken, and they both returned to heaven. Unfortunately, there are many loss souls who never awakes from such hell.
Disclaimer: I am no theologian, so the way I have explained it might be misleading, but I guess you see what I mean. It is not just the teaching of the Catholic Church, but in a sense, it is traditional wisdom/ethnical teaching that is universal to everyone even to someone with no religious background.
Now, as for the Sacrament of Reconciliation, note the emphasis on "reconciling" to God and to the community. I see your point of someone feeling guilty, but guilt exists not because of this sacrament. Afterall, even before we go to confession, God has already forgiven us, but God would still like us to go to Him and say "I am sorry." And nothing is more reassuring when the priest says "I absolve you from all your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Go now in peace, your sins are forgiven." (Note that God is doing the forgiving and absolving. The priest is acting on behalf of God, as taught by Jesus: "What you loosen on Earth would be loosen in Heaven".)
Oh, last but not least: Having impure thoughts is not a sin. Afterall, bad thoughts pop into our minds from time to time even when we do not will it. The right thing to do is, when such impure thoughts come, try to chase them away by thinking something good or doing some productive things to distract ourselves. We only sin if we choose to indulge in such impure thoughts, as in "Oooh, hey, this is a neat idea! It feels good! Let's keep fantasizing it (e.g. fantasizing having sex with some TV star)!" Now, that's sinning. I know many Slashdotters would say "Ya right!" and tell me to get lost at this point. But seriously, although such fantasizing may seem harmless, it is tempting the person to go the next step, then the next step, etc. Not to mention that the person is becoming less respectful of women since he is using them as "objects" for his own sexual pleasure, even if it was in his mind in the beginning.
Case in point: For the parents here, would you like your young child to be fantasizing having sex? I don't think so. "Yeah, they are children, so it is not okay for them, but we are adults and so it is okay for us." Answer: Double standard.
Hmmm... I know I am sounding a bit self-righteous, so let me say this: I have been there, and now I realize the destructive effects such impure thoughts are having on me and on the relationships I have with others.
Well, that's all for now.
Anthony
(who's wondering what he has gotten into.
Wrong. According to the Bible, as in the story of Adam and Eve, their original sin stems from pride... They wanted to be like God; they wanted to be their own God, that they ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, disobeying God's command, and then they lied about it. Their eyes were indeed open, for before they only knew good and knew no evil, but now they do. They lost their innocence.
Sex is good. Indeed, it is very good. It is a wonderful gift from God, who, in His infinite love, wants to share His creation power with us humans: He gave us the power to procreate and populate the Earth. In its true form, sex is an ultimate expression of love of a husband and wife, and through this union God works His miracle to create new life.
We do not sin merely by having sex, but rather, we sin when we abuse this amazing gift and power. Just look at what is happening today, especially after the so-called "sex revolution". Teenage pregancy, single mothers, abortion, AIDS, STDs, high divorce rate partly due to the widespread of premarital sex...
The Church, as a vicar of Christ, is not trying to condemn the world; rather, she is trying to tell the world, "please obey God, otherwise you will get hurt." God is just like our loving parents who want to protect their children from harm.
I won't say that the Church had been perfect all these centuries. There were times when the way the Church treated such problems only made people feel guilty and worthless. However, those were human errors, not to mention that many of us did not know better, especially in the old days.
Confession is a wonderful sacrament given to us by Jesus Christ himself. It is also called the Sacrament of Reconciliation, to help us to turn our back on our sinful ways and return to God our Father. The priest who hears the confession is like a telephone line that connects you to God, because God Himself is the Counsellor and Healer. This sacrament, again, is not to condemn, but to love and heal. Some devout Catholic goes to confession regularly (e.g. once a month) even if they have commited no grave sins. It is a great way to deepen our faith and come closer to God. Our Pope John Paul II goes to confession once a week.
The Vatican II Council was one of the milestones in which the Church reforms to truly care for people in a kinder, gentler way.
Vatican does not have as much cash as you may think. Yes, Vatican Museum with lots of art treasures etc. I am no expert in this area, but do you expect the Church officials just selling everything away, in a sense destroying our rich Catholic heritage---e.g. all the great artworks that artists from all ages created to glorify God. Their God-inspired masterpieces become inspirations for us all. The Church of course needs to safeguard and protect these treasures. Anyone can go to see them in the Vatican Museum I think.
Yes, Vatican may have quite a bit of assets, but many are non-movable ones (e.g. St. Peter's Square), and probably much are pertual funds for supporting the Vatican's day-to-day operation and the worldwide Church, and for emergencies. No, the cash are not there for the Church officials' personal pleasure.
Also, part of the cash that Vatican receives comes from donations from groups such as the Knights of Columbus worldwide. These donations, again, are not meant to stuff the wallets of Church officials, but rather for worthy causes, e.g. restoring the St. Peter's Church, support of missionary works, for Catholic Development and Peace (aid to third world countries; "teaching them how to fish so they can fish for life", for disasters reliefs, etc.
And no, the money you give to your local parishes do not go to Vatican. They stay local. Besides supporting the Church maintenance and help feed the parish priests and staff, the money also goes towards local charity, towards church programs that support members and others in need (e.g. death in family, addiction), help sponsoring refugees arriving from Kosovo, etc. It is up to the parishioners of each parish to decide how the money is spent. (Talk to your parish council.
Hmm... I may be sounding a bit defensive, but my point is, please don't ridicule or defame the Church (e.g. the Roman Catholic) just because of personal bias or misconceptions or half-truths held by others. Also, please don't judge the Church and condemn it/her as a whole just because the bad deeds of a few. Hey, we Catholics are human too, and we too do err, but that does not mean the whole Church is at fault.
On the other hand, many (cradle) Roman Catholics themselves have lots of misconceptions of the Church, and some left the Church because of such misconceptions, without ever experiencing or realizing the fullness, richness and truth of our faith. So, sometimes it is hard for non-Catholics not to have such misconceptions, especially in this material age where the Church's stance is opposite from that of the popular media and secular world.
I just hope that my last few posts, however imperfect they may be, may help clear up some of the misconceptions/prejudice and get people thinking instead of just saying that "institutionalized religions are social evils and are Bad Things(TM)".
Kind regards, and God bless,
Anthony Fok
Joy and love are gifts given to all of us by God. It radiates from within you and everyone.
We Christians (incl. Roman Catholics) are not drones (?). We don't blindly follow orders. Besides, that is not what the Church is about. Rather, the Church is a community started by Jesus Christ himself and continued by many faithful and apostles to spread the Gospel--The Good News, the message of joy and love. And it is not "what the Church thinks". Rather, the Church is acting as the messager of what Jesus Christ (our Lord and God) told us, telling us the way to happiness.
We are not Borgs. We won't assimilate people and force them to do things. Rather, we try to evangelize and share the Gospel.
There may seem to be many rules, but they are not there so that the Church would punish anyone who break the rules. Rather, they are like rules of thumb, Golden rules of life: a person who sins (breaks the rule) would get hurt or would hurt the people around him/her, directly or indirectly. The rules are, in a way, made by God to protect us, just like how a loving father and mother would set rules for their children so that they won't get hurt.
I myself am one of the biggest sinners. Oh yeah, I have screwed up many times, and in the process I have hurt myself and the people I love. And yet, God is so unconditionally loving and forgiving that He loves me deeply nonetheless and always tries to lead me closer to Him. That is the miracle, the Gospel: God is Love. In Him we find true happiness, because, afterall, He was the Creator of the universe and the Author of life. Who knows us better than God?
Anthony Fok
Hello mill,
You wrote:
That's a wrong statement. Believe it or not, We all believe in the same God. Roman Catholics and Protestants may have different views on the finer points of theology, but we have a lot more in common than the ways we differ. We believe in the same God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Trinity. God is love, and He loves the world so much that despite our sinfulness He still loves us unconditionally and even sent His only begotten Son Jesus to show us the way to the truth, the life, the way. He died on the cross for us in atonement for our sins, and on the third day He rose again from the dead, conquering sin and death. This is our Christian faith. Despite our differences (RC and Prot), we are united in Christ Jesus, and that's why we are all called Christians.
The God that Jewish believes in is the same God that we Christians do. The difference is that they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Messiah proclaimed in the scripture (Old Testament). Nonetheless, we enjoy the fact that we share in the worship the same merciful and loving God, and we also thank the Jews for much of our Christian traditions. Afterall, Jesus Himself is a Jew when He came to earth. :-) The Jewish scripture is very much identical to what the Christians know as the Old Testament. And many of the Christian traditions have their roots from our Jewish brothers and sisters.
My friend, faith and reason goes hand in hand. If the Roman Catholic Church is as irrational as you have claimed, don't you think I would have left the Church a long time ago?
I don't understand where you got the notion that the Church is based upon arbitrary axioms. On contrary, in fact, seeing that the Roman Catholic Church never budged on its stance against abortion and birth control, despite popular outcry even from some Catholics. Why? The Church could have easily bowed to public pressure and say "abortion and birth control are okay". Heck, if they did that, I am sure the Church would receive a LOT less ridicule and more people may join the Church. Why didn't they? Some may say that "Oh, the Roman Catholic Church is just an old, stubborn, oppressive patriachal hierarchy who likes to impose its view on everyone and tell everyone what to do." Are they? I mean, are there special "Bishop Squads" everywhere patrolling on the streets and coming to your doorstep and condemning people, saying "You have sinned! You are going to hell!"?
The late Archbishop Fulton Sheen once wrote: "There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Roman Catholic Church; there are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church."
Seems like you consider a religion to be nothing more than superstition and a haven from complex matter. Hmm...
Well, all I can say, is that what you have described is not the Church that I know. Instead, to me, the Church is a wonderful community, like a big family, vibrant with joy and love, where people gather to share and to seek Truth. Friendship blossoms and lasts a lifetime. True, the Church is not perfect, but the most important thing is the presence of God among us. :-) One of the songs from the 1970's goes like this: "Yes they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love; Yes they'll know we are Christians by our love." Yeah, I know, even one of my best friend (she's Catholic) says the song is cheesy, but we all agree that it is true, for without love, we are nothing, and the Church would become nothing but an empty shell.
And I challenge you to examine your own logic in your statement. Perhaps you have been so indoctrinated about the irrationality and illogicity of faith and religion, that you simply become close minded and refuse to believe or even discuss the possibility of logic and rationality in faith?
Our Holy Father John Paul II has recently written an encyclical titled Fides et Ratio, or Faith and Reason in English (the direct link isn't working because Slashdot was adding an extra space after one of the underscore. Maybe the URL was too long. Just click on the link and then click on Fides et Ratio on the encyclical index page). I haven't read it yet, but I heard that is really good. Take a look, even just a quick glance. I hope you'd like it. :-)
Let me take the liberty of quoting the first paragraph: "Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth-in a word, to know himself-so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2)."
I see. Hmm... To be honest with you, there were times in my life where I have doubted whether God exists or nor. Don't worry, I won't try to force "God" down your throat. All I can say is, keep an open mind, and don't ever stop searching for the truth. Afterall, didn't Jesus say, "Seek, and you shall find; ask, and you shall be given"? You may be surprised at what you find.
Take care, and God bless,
Anthony Fok, foka@ualberta.ca :-)
Debian developer, and Roman Catholic
I don't know the details of European history, but in the case of Henry VIII, he was starting his own Church of England for very selfish reasons (e.g. to divorce his wives and to remarry), and he killed many people who opposed him, even his own former Lord Chanceller Sir Thomas More (now a saint). The "court" cut Thomas' head off and put it on top of the London Bridge for all to see. Henry VIII was an outright tyrant, and you tell me that the Pope was at fault?
Anthony Fok
> I think the question is better as why? What purpose will it serve?
Good question. I can't answer that either, but it is something to think about. For me, the saint's life will remind me and make me reflect on what I am doing on the Internet, and help me search for knowledge and do the Right Thing(TM) according to God's will.
Anthony :-)
:-)
(Practising Catholic and a Debian semi-developer.
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