This is so not the root problem. You are killing your own straw man here.
It is intellectually insulting to suggest that's how we Chinese think. And it's blatantly bashing to claim that our race "is obsessed in rule over neighboring countries". Have you seen us claiming Russia and many other European countries as part of China? They were under the rule of Yuan Dynasty too. Have you seen us claiming Republic of Mongolia as part of China? It was separated from China only decades ago. Have you seen us claiming South Asian countries as part of China? There were many Chinese princesses marrying their kings.
If it is up to me, there is really no need to bother bringing up history here. The reality has always been: Whoever has the upper-hand at the right time in history, gets the land and rules the people on the land. This could be through military means, or diplomatic maneuver, many ways but not whining with lies. The current U.S. map has been built this way, so as the current European map, why Chinese map has to be defined otherwise?
But the fact that every single nation on earth formally recognizes Chinese sovereignty over Tibet - this has always been the case, even long before 1951, is not enough for people like you. You have to go around telling lies about history, such as "China invaded Tibet in the 1950s. Tibet was an independent country then". So it's people like you who bring up horrendously distorted version of history. You should thank those Chinese who took time to correct your illusion. Do yourself a favor, study from the history, not media. Find some maps, old and new, published by all countries, see for yourself the clearly marked boundary of China including Tibet. And good luck arguing with historians that Yuan and Qing were not China, starting from Marco Polo ï¼1254-1324). And as another reader pointed out, how convenient for you to skip Ming Dynasty? I would add, how convenient for you to jump from Qing to Mao's era. Seriously, how do you learn your history? There were so many lies in your post, not to mention serious exaggerations. It's people like you who cause the problem. Stop! Just stop spreading this mis-information! And that Grace Wang. Who are you to call her a true patriot when over a billion of
Chinese disagree? You obviously hate China. And you get to decide who is true patriotic to China? What a joke!
And please don't waste everybody's time by citing the findings of the self-proclaimed "International Commission of Jurists" which is essentially a non-government human rights organization representing the political agenda of the Tibet lobby. Their legal assertions hold little weight among the world's experts in international law.
China's sovereignty of Tibet is indisputable. Indeed, Tibetans have always required Chinese passports to enter the U.S. - always, both before and since 1951. Here is a quote from Wikipedia:
"Not a single sovereign state, including India, has extended recognition to the Tibetan Government-in-exile in the more than two decades of its existence. This lack of legal recognition of independence has forced even some strong supporters of the refugees to admit that "even today international legal experts sympathetic to the Dalai Lama's cause find it difficult to argue that Tibet ever technically established its independence of the Chinese Empire, imperial, or republican."
It's getting late. Pardon me for being lazy by citing from others. Also, I know I've become angry as I wrote this, but my anger is only to those who spread lies knowingly. Let me post a documentary made by Monarex here for those who want to find out truth before forming opinions. "Tibet, the truth (A political history). http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY
Well, instead of simply calling this mis-information, why don't you show counter-evidence? At least he has websites with pictures to prove it. I count myself as a "well-educated Chinese". I agree with his basic points although his tone is too angry. Dalai's rule is cruel. I don't know about the specifics of his birthday. But the cruelty of the serfdom is just a well-documented fact. You might think it's too disgusting to believe and choose to neglect the evidence. But it is obviously your problem instead of his. I suggest a national geography documentary for you: "Tibet: Inferno under Dalai Lama & aristoric rule".
I also think Dalai is a politician who made bad decisions in the past and now try to get some power back. He and the entire "free tibet movement" are supported by CIA. I suggest "The CIA's Secret War in Tibet" by C Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison, www.kansaspress.ku.edu/concia.html. Actually, it is not secret anymore. CIA itself has unlocked those files showing how they aid Dalai:
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/34059556.html?dids=34059556:34059556&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Sep+15%2C+1998&author=JIM+MANN&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=CIA+Gave+Aid+to+Tibetan+Exiles+in+'60s%2C+Files+Show&pqatl=google
** US State Department archive on Tibet operations:
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/...
Or you can hear it directly from the former CIA Executive Assistant, Sam Halpern, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcGCjo...
"I think the basic the
whole idea was to keep Chinese occupied somehow, keep them annoyed, keep
them disturbed. No body wanted to go to war over Tibet. That's pretty clear.
We did go to war over Korea. We did go to war over Indochina. We won't go
to war over Tibet. And so, it was nuisance operation, basically nothing more
. And I'll think it's American point of view, it wouldn't cost very much,
even money or manpower. Anyway it was not manpower, it was Tibetan manpower.
We were willing to help Tibetans from becoming a running sore and a
nuisance to the Chinese"
Sure, I just finished a post on how I think Lamaist Theocracy is cruel, both in the past and in presence.
There are just too many misconceptions here in my opinion. And I am new to slashdot and have trouble posting formatted comment. So I will have to take it slowly. I think it's easier to dialog. So maybe we can start here. My position is like most Chinese, against the Free Tibet Movement. My reason is that 1. China has legitimate sovereignty over Tibet. 2. Tibetans life in general improves a lot and is getting better compared to when they were under the theocracy. So, are you supporting the "free tibet movement"? Why?
Well, I did quote from Parenti page, as I clearly referenced in my earlier post. I agree that he focuses on the *history*. Funny thing, you seem to neglect my second quote, which is how the spokesman of the *current* "Tibet government in exile" defines "non-violence" in the *recent* riot. I thought anyone would notice the reminiscence. You still think Dalai Lama might be able to deliver a modern democracy once he succeeds in his independence quest (a sidenote: Dalai Lama never denounced the Lamaist theocracy)? Well, nobody can be sure about the future. But I guess the best indicator would be how the current "Tibet government in exile" is run. It's still a theocracy with many things determined using oracles. And worshipers of other deity, even deity within Lamaism, are persecuted. Search Dorje Shugden. Or see a Swiss made documentary here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sOm-uQH9Y&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aboblx-0zAs&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1dILwsmwCQ&feature=related
Also, I would like to argue that I did not "cherry-pick". The cruelty of Lamaist theocracy is not just an opinion or a myth in ancient history which is too far gone for us to verify what really happened. It is a well-document fact, with lots of living witnesses, photos and hard evidence such as ritual items made from human skull. I can easily give you other source other than Parenti. See, for example, National Geographic documentary
Tibet: Inferno under Dalai Lama & aristoric rule.
I am wondering why most in the West have the romanticized image of old Tibet as Shangri-la? Maybe you would help me with some evidence from your side?
Finally, about few Tibetan bloggers in China. You don't have to hint or wink, I get what answer you are looking for. I never deny the sad fact that Chinese government has tight control over the media. I fully agree that freedom of speech is a wonderful thing and I appreciate that we can voice our opinions here. I also wish people will not immediately dismiss our thoughts just because of where we are from. With that said, now let me give you two more reasons for few Tibetan bloggers. 1. Whereas blogging is popular in the United States, the Chinese have traditionally preferred the bulletin board systems and forums instead. If you read Chinese, I will have some Tibetan comments to share with you. I've only seen one written in English though. I could post it here if you like. 2. The Tibetan population is less than 2% in China.
Good question. The short answer is that the Lamaist (Buddhist) theocracy is very cruel and inhumane. It would be of your interest to see the two quotes below:
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
"...Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then "left to God" in the freezing night to die."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cp6l6yTi9M
"Radio France Internationale released an interview with Dawa Tsering. He denies violence in Tibet
The reporter asked Dawa Tsering, spokesman for Tibet's Gov. in Exile, why hadn't he condemn the savage killings of Han Chinese by Tibetan rioters.
Mr Tsering answered: "First of all, I have to declare that during the whole event Tibetans did not take any violent actions. From the view of Tibetans, violence means hurt to a person's life. From the videos we can see, there were beatings on Han Chinese. But those were only beatings. After beating, those Han Chinese would run away. That's just beating, not a hurt to human life. All those being killed are just because of accidents, which can be clearly observed in the news from CCP. They would hiding upstairs when Tibetans smashed the doors. They were just hiding and did not run away when Tibetans set the fire. They were burnt to death by accident. Those who set the fire did not know there were Han Chinese hiding upstairs."
This is just typical. It is okay if you disagree with him. Demand evidence and provide your own. However, you choose dismiss his perspective by an easy application of labels and an violent personal attacks. So our government is not perfect. Does it mean all of us should be deprived of voicing our thoughts? Does it mean all of us lack of sophistication to be skeptical about our government and meanwhile disagree with you western people? So we have to throw the government out before we can point out your prejudice on our people? Based on your absurd analogy, your version of history is 100 times fictitious than his. We've been to both kinds of propaganda and aware of both. Seems like you are so blindly arrogant in your imaginary "black-and-white" world. Please do yourself a favor and lay out some facts to support the statement "it's China that's importing Han colonists to eventually wipe out a separate Tibetan people and culture." My position is that "if the Chinese are wrong to hold on to Tibet, then Lincoln was wrong to insist that the South stay in the Union â" and you ought to
immediately either grant the American Southwest (and California) independence, or else give it all back to the Mexicans." If you are confident with your knowledge of history and ready to open your mind a little bit, let's have a healthy and meaningful discussion. Otherwise, get down your high horse, stop trying to lecture Chinese people how to run China, mind your own business for God's sake!
As an oversea Chinese who has been in the North America for a decade, I cannot help noticing the condescending tone used by many in this thread, which is too common in most west media. It is true that the Chinese government has a tight control on media. But it doesn't mean that all Chinese are brainwashed to be "slaves to tyrants." Many of those who are most angered are here in the West and have received higher education here; many have been exposed to both Chinese and West media; those living in China are by no means as blind as people would like to imagine. It might be hard for you to believe, but most Chinese are deeply critical of the current government. You don't see many complaints, if any, from Chinese people when the west criticizes the Chinese government of being corrupted, controlling speech, lack of law enforcement, etc., do you? The Tibet issue causes such heated reactions in the Chinese community with good reasons. I am happy to provide my point of view if any of you are interested in knowing the other side of the story.
But please bear in mind that any honest discussion and debate about China is essentially impossible if you immediately assume moral or intellectual superiority over the Chinese people by no other virtue than that of being âoefrom the democratic Westâ.
Slashdot Mirror
This is so not the root problem. You are killing your own straw man here. It is intellectually insulting to suggest that's how we Chinese think. And it's blatantly bashing to claim that our race "is obsessed in rule over neighboring countries". Have you seen us claiming Russia and many other European countries as part of China? They were under the rule of Yuan Dynasty too. Have you seen us claiming Republic of Mongolia as part of China? It was separated from China only decades ago. Have you seen us claiming South Asian countries as part of China? There were many Chinese princesses marrying their kings. If it is up to me, there is really no need to bother bringing up history here. The reality has always been: Whoever has the upper-hand at the right time in history, gets the land and rules the people on the land. This could be through military means, or diplomatic maneuver, many ways but not whining with lies. The current U.S. map has been built this way, so as the current European map, why Chinese map has to be defined otherwise? But the fact that every single nation on earth formally recognizes Chinese sovereignty over Tibet - this has always been the case, even long before 1951, is not enough for people like you. You have to go around telling lies about history, such as "China invaded Tibet in the 1950s. Tibet was an independent country then". So it's people like you who bring up horrendously distorted version of history. You should thank those Chinese who took time to correct your illusion. Do yourself a favor, study from the history, not media. Find some maps, old and new, published by all countries, see for yourself the clearly marked boundary of China including Tibet. And good luck arguing with historians that Yuan and Qing were not China, starting from Marco Polo ï¼1254-1324). And as another reader pointed out, how convenient for you to skip Ming Dynasty? I would add, how convenient for you to jump from Qing to Mao's era. Seriously, how do you learn your history? There were so many lies in your post, not to mention serious exaggerations. It's people like you who cause the problem. Stop! Just stop spreading this mis-information! And that Grace Wang. Who are you to call her a true patriot when over a billion of Chinese disagree? You obviously hate China. And you get to decide who is true patriotic to China? What a joke! And please don't waste everybody's time by citing the findings of the self-proclaimed "International Commission of Jurists" which is essentially a non-government human rights organization representing the political agenda of the Tibet lobby. Their legal assertions hold little weight among the world's experts in international law. China's sovereignty of Tibet is indisputable. Indeed, Tibetans have always required Chinese passports to enter the U.S. - always, both before and since 1951. Here is a quote from Wikipedia: "Not a single sovereign state, including India, has extended recognition to the Tibetan Government-in-exile in the more than two decades of its existence. This lack of legal recognition of independence has forced even some strong supporters of the refugees to admit that "even today international legal experts sympathetic to the Dalai Lama's cause find it difficult to argue that Tibet ever technically established its independence of the Chinese Empire, imperial, or republican." It's getting late. Pardon me for being lazy by citing from others. Also, I know I've become angry as I wrote this, but my anger is only to those who spread lies knowingly. Let me post a documentary made by Monarex here for those who want to find out truth before forming opinions. "Tibet, the truth (A political history). http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY
Well, instead of simply calling this mis-information, why don't you show counter-evidence? At least he has websites with pictures to prove it. I count myself as a "well-educated Chinese". I agree with his basic points although his tone is too angry. Dalai's rule is cruel. I don't know about the specifics of his birthday. But the cruelty of the serfdom is just a well-documented fact. You might think it's too disgusting to believe and choose to neglect the evidence. But it is obviously your problem instead of his. I suggest a national geography documentary for you: "Tibet: Inferno under Dalai Lama & aristoric rule". I also think Dalai is a politician who made bad decisions in the past and now try to get some power back. He and the entire "free tibet movement" are supported by CIA. I suggest "The CIA's Secret War in Tibet" by C Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison, www.kansaspress.ku.edu/concia.html. Actually, it is not secret anymore. CIA itself has unlocked those files showing how they aid Dalai: http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/34059556.html?dids=34059556:34059556&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Sep+15%2C+1998&author=JIM+MANN&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=CIA+Gave+Aid+to+Tibetan+Exiles+in+'60s%2C+Files+Show&pqatl=google ** US State Department archive on Tibet operations: http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/... Or you can hear it directly from the former CIA Executive Assistant, Sam Halpern, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcGCjo... "I think the basic the whole idea was to keep Chinese occupied somehow, keep them annoyed, keep them disturbed. No body wanted to go to war over Tibet. That's pretty clear. We did go to war over Korea. We did go to war over Indochina. We won't go to war over Tibet. And so, it was nuisance operation, basically nothing more . And I'll think it's American point of view, it wouldn't cost very much, even money or manpower. Anyway it was not manpower, it was Tibetan manpower. We were willing to help Tibetans from becoming a running sore and a nuisance to the Chinese"
Sure, I just finished a post on how I think Lamaist Theocracy is cruel, both in the past and in presence. There are just too many misconceptions here in my opinion. And I am new to slashdot and have trouble posting formatted comment. So I will have to take it slowly. I think it's easier to dialog. So maybe we can start here. My position is like most Chinese, against the Free Tibet Movement. My reason is that 1. China has legitimate sovereignty over Tibet. 2. Tibetans life in general improves a lot and is getting better compared to when they were under the theocracy. So, are you supporting the "free tibet movement"? Why?
Well, I did quote from Parenti page, as I clearly referenced in my earlier post. I agree that he focuses on the *history*. Funny thing, you seem to neglect my second quote, which is how the spokesman of the *current* "Tibet government in exile" defines "non-violence" in the *recent* riot. I thought anyone would notice the reminiscence. You still think Dalai Lama might be able to deliver a modern democracy once he succeeds in his independence quest (a sidenote: Dalai Lama never denounced the Lamaist theocracy)? Well, nobody can be sure about the future. But I guess the best indicator would be how the current "Tibet government in exile" is run. It's still a theocracy with many things determined using oracles. And worshipers of other deity, even deity within Lamaism, are persecuted. Search Dorje Shugden. Or see a Swiss made documentary here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sOm-uQH9Y&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aboblx-0zAs&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1dILwsmwCQ&feature=related Also, I would like to argue that I did not "cherry-pick". The cruelty of Lamaist theocracy is not just an opinion or a myth in ancient history which is too far gone for us to verify what really happened. It is a well-document fact, with lots of living witnesses, photos and hard evidence such as ritual items made from human skull. I can easily give you other source other than Parenti. See, for example, National Geographic documentary Tibet: Inferno under Dalai Lama & aristoric rule. I am wondering why most in the West have the romanticized image of old Tibet as Shangri-la? Maybe you would help me with some evidence from your side? Finally, about few Tibetan bloggers in China. You don't have to hint or wink, I get what answer you are looking for. I never deny the sad fact that Chinese government has tight control over the media. I fully agree that freedom of speech is a wonderful thing and I appreciate that we can voice our opinions here. I also wish people will not immediately dismiss our thoughts just because of where we are from. With that said, now let me give you two more reasons for few Tibetan bloggers. 1. Whereas blogging is popular in the United States, the Chinese have traditionally preferred the bulletin board systems and forums instead. If you read Chinese, I will have some Tibetan comments to share with you. I've only seen one written in English though. I could post it here if you like. 2. The Tibetan population is less than 2% in China.
Good question. The short answer is that the Lamaist (Buddhist) theocracy is very cruel and inhumane. It would be of your interest to see the two quotes below: http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html "...Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then "left to God" in the freezing night to die." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cp6l6yTi9M "Radio France Internationale released an interview with Dawa Tsering. He denies violence in Tibet The reporter asked Dawa Tsering, spokesman for Tibet's Gov. in Exile, why hadn't he condemn the savage killings of Han Chinese by Tibetan rioters. Mr Tsering answered: "First of all, I have to declare that during the whole event Tibetans did not take any violent actions. From the view of Tibetans, violence means hurt to a person's life. From the videos we can see, there were beatings on Han Chinese. But those were only beatings. After beating, those Han Chinese would run away. That's just beating, not a hurt to human life. All those being killed are just because of accidents, which can be clearly observed in the news from CCP. They would hiding upstairs when Tibetans smashed the doors. They were just hiding and did not run away when Tibetans set the fire. They were burnt to death by accident. Those who set the fire did not know there were Han Chinese hiding upstairs."
This is just typical. It is okay if you disagree with him. Demand evidence and provide your own. However, you choose dismiss his perspective by an easy application of labels and an violent personal attacks. So our government is not perfect. Does it mean all of us should be deprived of voicing our thoughts? Does it mean all of us lack of sophistication to be skeptical about our government and meanwhile disagree with you western people? So we have to throw the government out before we can point out your prejudice on our people? Based on your absurd analogy, your version of history is 100 times fictitious than his. We've been to both kinds of propaganda and aware of both. Seems like you are so blindly arrogant in your imaginary "black-and-white" world. Please do yourself a favor and lay out some facts to support the statement "it's China that's importing Han colonists to eventually wipe out a separate Tibetan people and culture." My position is that "if the Chinese are wrong to hold on to Tibet, then Lincoln was wrong to insist that the South stay in the Union â" and you ought to immediately either grant the American Southwest (and California) independence, or else give it all back to the Mexicans." If you are confident with your knowledge of history and ready to open your mind a little bit, let's have a healthy and meaningful discussion. Otherwise, get down your high horse, stop trying to lecture Chinese people how to run China, mind your own business for God's sake!
As an oversea Chinese who has been in the North America for a decade, I cannot help noticing the condescending tone used by many in this thread, which is too common in most west media. It is true that the Chinese government has a tight control on media. But it doesn't mean that all Chinese are brainwashed to be "slaves to tyrants." Many of those who are most angered are here in the West and have received higher education here; many have been exposed to both Chinese and West media; those living in China are by no means as blind as people would like to imagine. It might be hard for you to believe, but most Chinese are deeply critical of the current government. You don't see many complaints, if any, from Chinese people when the west criticizes the Chinese government of being corrupted, controlling speech, lack of law enforcement, etc., do you? The Tibet issue causes such heated reactions in the Chinese community with good reasons. I am happy to provide my point of view if any of you are interested in knowing the other side of the story. But please bear in mind that any honest discussion and debate about China is essentially impossible if you immediately assume moral or intellectual superiority over the Chinese people by no other virtue than that of being âoefrom the democratic Westâ.