The transmission problem is interesting. Basically, they had this neat idea to do clutchless shifting by having the motor controller adjust the RPM during the shift. The problem was something that they didn't count on: the motor had too much rotational inertia, so they couldn't adjust the RPM fast enough. So, the motor would tear up the transmission. It wasn't that the transmission was somehow bad; it was just that their idea was unworkable.
Tesla gets its stated range... if you drive it like a normal car. If you drive it like a sports car, no surprise, your range gets reduced, just like you get worse mileage on high power gasoline cars when you actually exploit their power instead of driving them normally.
Tesla is no more on the market than Aptera. Musk has his, but that's about it. By that standard, you could say that Fambro has his Aptera;) Tesla is only about six months ahead of them in schedule.
You know that the head of the Ford GT, Dodge Viper, and Saleen S7 projects (Neil Hannemann) is heading up production for Aptera, right? And that they've got all of their VC funding that they need through '09? And that they're already churning out copies for structural safety tests right now (full crash testing will be in a few months; right now, it's mainly crush strength tests)
ZAP is a company that bilked investors by talking about goods that only existed in CG images, referred to deals that were never made, split stock over and over, and sold *way* underpowered golf carts with no safety features, made in China, at *way* overpriced prices. On every front, Aptera is exactly the opposite. It has a very small number of investors, is not publicly traded, everyone who's gotten to drive the pre-production prototypes raves about them, and $27k is very cheap for a highway-speed composite-shelled EV.
The waiver, which isn't too unusual for sporty cars like the Tesla, is about the automatic ability to *deactivate* the passenger-side airbag when there's a child in the seat. Airbags can kill small children.
Cars like the Tesla will never come down in price that much, and even if they did, you wouldn't be able to afford upkeep on the batteries (they use laptop cells; they pamper them, but even still, that LiCoO2 cathode is still going to kill the cells after several years). Tesla is simply not designed around low price; it's designed around performance and range for a high-end target customer.
Now, this doesn't mean that *EVs* won't come down in price. There are already a number of them coming out (see my post further down) with prices in the $25-30k range that'll give you 0-60 in 7-10 seconds and 100-120 miles range, with the whole range of modern safety and comfort features. They use less energy-dense variants of li-ion, such as phosphates and spinels, that have vastly superior lifespans that should last at least a decade, and probably last the lifespan of the vehicle. The batteries should also be cheaper once they enter mass production due to their much cheaper raw ingredients.
And, for those of you with more down to earth budgets, there's always Aptera, which starts shipping this winter (although reservations are filled through almost the end of '09 already). 2+1 seater, hyperefficient, space-age styling, 120 miles for all-electric or 40 miles electric + 130mpg. Test drives and factory tours start in a month or so.
If they bring it to the US (probably around the 2010 timeframe), there Mitsubishi i-EV -- 4 seater, 100 miles, styled like a cross between a VW beetle and a PT cruiser, or perhaps between a Prius and a minivan.
There's also the Chevy Volt, late 2010, a 4 seater PHEV (40 miles electric, 50mpg after that) with "chopped" styling (I find it ugly, but a lot of people find it "sporty").
Lastly, as a bit more of a long shot, there's the VentureOne, a tandem two-seater cross between a car and a motorcycle that tilts into turns. 120 miles in the EV version, and should be pretty efficient, too.
The hotter you run panels, the less efficient they are, and the faster they degrade. Just so you know.
Re:Use a 'fan center' to isolate when grid power d
on
Hobbyist Renewable Energy?
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· Score: 2, Insightful
I got the impression that the author was looking more for alternative ways to use the power than "homebrew grid tie-in". For example, I used to run the vent fan on my greenhouse based on solar power. When the sun went down or when it was cloudy (i.e., when you didn't want the fan running), it'd stop. I'd imagine something like that would be nice for an attic fan setup, too.
Think of things in your house that you really don't need to run on grid power -- nonessential items. Perhaps, since this is just for a hobby, you could create a single dedicated socket that you don't use all the time that provides your renewable power to household devices. Your power could be fed into a battery, which would then be fed into a cheap store inverter. You'd want it to be on a switch so that your inverter doesn't run nonstop and drain your batteries, of course. You would, of course, have to have a battery back for such a solution.
Those are helpful numbers, but they can't tell the whole story. Electric range should be expressed not just in miles, but also in miles per kWh used to charge up.
That's fair enough; I wouldn't mind a third stat added in there.
Actually, no, it doesn't unless you're referring to cartoony images, but that's beside the point. The optimal aerodynamic shape is a teardrop. The Aptera approximates that as closely as possible within the constraints of traffic regulations and highway-speed safety. To make up for the ever-so-slightly blunted tail, they fill in the partial vaccuum with air from a vent fan.
In some cases, a series gasoline hybrid can perform better on the highway than an equivalent gasoline-only car, so I imagine the same would be true with diesels. It lets you have a smaller engine without sacrificing acceleration and also lets the engine run at optimal speeds at all times. Currently, one big problem is the inefficient storage of power in the batteries. Li-ion series hybrids should perform better than the current NiMH ones. Also, two-mode hybrids should have the same benefits (they use clutches to deactivate parts of the drivetrain that don't need to be running at any given point in time).
Not sure how on earth you got modded down to -1 for talking in math ("Karma police -- arrest this man!"), but I'll further what you said: I recently did my budget, and found that in the past year, with no "major" things breaking (like the transmission or the engine block), maintenance on my car was about $1,000. All the little things add up. One of the big maintenance problems with an ICE drivetrain is that there are just so darned many parts. Even if they all average having significant lifespans, the costs are still going to rack up. Part of the beauty of EV drivetrains is that they're so simple. I've talked to former EV-1 owners and RAV4EV owners, and both loved this about their cars; they had virtually no maintenance.
Why yes, there is. The house bill only applies to PHEVs, but A) there is a movement to try and get pure BEVs covered in the senate version, and B) cars with solar panels could possibly qualify as a solar-electric hybrid.
Also, you ignore state and local incentives.
but you're fooling yourself if you think any of these cars will result in saving consumers money.
Yeah, it's not like I spend a couple thousand dollars per year on gasoline. Oh, wait, *I do*.
vehicle cost
$27k. Plus taxes (like on any car), minus incentives.
taxes
Covered.
fuel cost
A savings of a couple thousand dollars per year. So even if you're comparing the Aptera to a *free car*, just from the fuel cost savings alone, you have a ten year or so payback. Which equals 14 or 15 years when adjusted for interest -- still less than the average car's lifespan. And this is ignoring maintenance (see below). Let me reiterate: you ultimately end up saving money *buying a new car with luxury features and a miniscule environmental footprint* than driving a *free* car over the lifespan of both, ignoring maintenance (and if you get a car for free, it's probably old and a maintenance nightmare).
maintenance cost
Already covered. Battery maintenance should be similar to or less than maintenance on a transmission (the batteries should last the life of the car, but even if you had to replace them once, you're only looking at a couple thousand). There are about 10% of the moving parts in an EV drivetrain as in an ICE drivetrain, so for everything else, you're looking at a major maintenance reduction.
insurance cost
Liability coverage will be lower due to the motorcycle classification and light weight. Hard to say whether comprehensive will be higher or lower (depends on whether the extra vehicle coverage costs beats the decreased liability costs).
infrastructure cost to provide electrical outlets to parking lots/garages
The Aptera, by default, charges from a normal household power outlet, which can be found in almost every home in the US. If garages want to make extra money installing them, that's their business, but one thing is for sure: they'll be an order of magnitude cheaper than gas pumps to install. Even fast chargers would be cheaper than gas pumps when you factor in the cost to install things like the underground gas tanks and the extra amortized costs of fuel delivery (compared to easier electricity delivery).
and any unforeseen costs that such a change to our current system will incur.
Yeah, you mean like all of those "costs" associated with reducing gasoline consumption, such as long-term energy independence, a lower dependence on countries that hate us, more predictable energy costs, reduced air pollution, reduced healthcare costs from said reduced air pollution, reduced spoiling of wilderness lands for oil extraction, and so forth?
Hey, genius: an AC *is* a heat pump. What we colloquially refer to a "heat pump" is the same thing as an AC, except it can run in the other direction for heating as well (more accurately, it's a "reversible cycle heat pump"). Reversible cycle heat pumps are no less efficient at cooling than ones that can do cooling only.
[quote]Citations please? Everything I've been able to find about LiP cells has been written by (or sourced from) somebody trying to sell them, apart from this IOP article, which only tests the cells through 100 charge cycles, and also notes some strange behavior with regard to the internal impedance of the cells after just 30 charge cycles.[/quote]
What, exactly, are you looking for? Real-world use? Sure, here you go. Or perhaps this. Or almost anything from that site. And remember, these are amateurs, and the sort of loads they're putting on these cells are an order of magnitude more than a BEV will ever do. As for "people trying to sell them", in the Volt, they're going to be having a very long battery warranty (they want to be able to ensure a minimum 10 year lifespan), so they *better* last, or GM's going to lose a fortune.
The company refuses to release crash-test data, despite claiming to have done several, and to have more or less finalized their design.
What on Earth are you talking about? The company has not done *any* physical crash tests; that's for late this summer/early this fall, once their new factory comes online. They *have* done crush tests and digital crash tests. They have pictures on their website from one of the digital crash tests and have described the overall results (they use the same crash software that BMW does). They also have a video tour that includes their crush rig.
If the Aptera is anything like Corbin Motors' Sparrow (dangerous)
Not even remotely.
or Merlin (pre-sold but never delivered)
Again, not even remotely.
Do I really need to run down the list of differences in both the vehicles and the companies? I'd think a cursory glance would be good enough for you.
the Aptera is still just a testcar.
No, the Aptera is a suite of vehicles, ranging from empty frames to test the suspension to the spartan Mk0 all the way to full-featured pre-production Mk1 models, made by a company who has one of the best names in the industry (Neil Hannemann -- Dodge Viper, Ford GT, Saleen S7, etc) managing their transition to mass production. What transition? They've already bought, and are currently moving into, a 100,000 square foot factory, and are rapidly expanding their staff. With what money? With their final round of VC funding, which should last them through the end of '09. What, exactly, are you thinking is going to be the problem here?
Getting a roadster, huh? That should be a lot of fun.:)
The bill has passed the house and is awaiting a Senate version to go through; it's stalled there, and it's possible it may take until next year. The house-passed version only applies to PHEVs; it requires an additional "significant" source of power in addition to batteries (whether a car with a small solar panel on the roof, like an Aptera Typ-1e, would qualify is up in the air). However, there is a movement to try and get it expanded to cover pure BEVs, too. If you'd like it to apply to your roadster, contact your senators and request that they make the change. A $6.2k credit is certainly relevant even on a roadster, and certainly worth the time to make a phone call, send an email, or write a letter.
At which point you'll decapitate the other driver. But hey, the same underlieing logic worked for SUVs.
That'd be some accident if you could make it *all the way* over the other vehicle. Plus, the Aptera is going to be lighter than virtually anything it can hit; if what it hits was able to survive rollover, it'd be able to survive an Aptera.
The Aptera is a magnificent achievement, especially for high school kids.
Aptera has absolutely nothing to do with high school kids. In fact, their head of production also headed up production on cars like the Ford GT, the Dodge Viper, and the Saleen S7.
But it's not designed to meet the same requirements the big automakers have to deal with
Yeah, they're only doing them voluntarily. So? Does that change the fact that it's been digitally crash tested and this fall will go through the full suite of physical crash tests? Does that change the fact that it has a very long crumple zone, at nearly four feet? That it has huge crush strengths, far better than most cars? That it has the most advanced airbags on the market? That it uses composites rather than steel? In fact, what more, exactly, would you have them do?
I could be completely wrong here, but apart from the OLPC, LiP cells have never entered into commercial use, and not very much is known about their longetivity, or how well the economics of scale will apply to their production if/when they become popular.
LiP cells have entered wide use in power tools, and are taking increasing roles in RC airplanes, RC helicopters, robotics, and other tasks. A BEV will stress the cells a lot less than any of the above things. Automotive uses for LiP are relatively new -- none mass produced yet, and ones built in limited quantities have only been on the road for a few years
Assuming that LiP cells share the same time durability as "traditional" LiCoO2 cells, 24 months seems like a better timeframe.
That's just the point of them -- that they *don't* share the durability of LiCoO2 cells. That's the primary reason that they get rid of the LiCoO2 cathode and replace it with a more stable one that has lower energy density. LiP is to LiCoO2 as nickel-iron was to lead-acid at the turn of the century (nickel-iron "Edison cells" being what powered the Detroit Electrics -- Jay Leno's 1909 electric car still runs on its original nickel-iron cells).
Batteries do not fundamentally have to have short lifespans; it all depends on the particular chemistry. A123 expects their cells in the volt to be good for 7000+ charge cycles. LG chem expects 40 years out of their spinel cells. And a BEV stresses its batteries less than a PHEV like the Volt.
Similarly, although potentially not a big deal for you, the lack of storage space could be a big issue to some people, as the "econoboxes" tend to offer a fairly decent amount of cargo space (and at least 4 seats).
The Aptera has 15.9 cubic feet of cargo space. That's not small. It's also "long", which will help for carrying awkward-shaped items, and has a big hatch to make getting to them easier.
Used cars are also another option. A nice used vehicle can be had for under $10,000, which causes them to win virtually every cost-benefit analysis you can think of
If you put $2-3k in gasoline costs on a vehicle every year, it's hard to come up with a comparison where a 10k vehicle wins for more than a few years. Even a free vehicle will lose in under a decade's time. And this assumes that the cheapo vehicle lasts for that long in comparison to the brand new Aptera.
The Aptera also doesn't look particularly safe. In fact, I'd be hesitant to go anywhere near a highway in one. It looks about as safe as a motorcycle (eg. not at all).
Please explain what's unsafe about a composite shell (several times stronger than steel), an F1-style roll cage that comprises a good chunk of the vehicle's total weight, a 45" crumple zone, a deflection system designed to make the car ride up and over in an accident, double the NTSB standard roof crush strength, double the NTSB standard door crush strength, and the most advanced airbags available. While you're at it, explain how it will roll over with a 7" wheelbase, a low CG, and downforce from the shape.
You live further than 50 miles or so away from work *and* there is no way for you to connect to a normal household power outlet there, *and* the business wouldn't be amenable to installing an outlet, *and* the city won't either? In this situation which applies to just a couple percent of American commuters, get a PHEV or wait for the next gen of batteries.
So lets do the 60 month deal and pay $250/month plus $200 a month for gas. Total cost is $450/month to commute in an econobox.On a 48 month note the math gets worse
Yes, you're right -- in your custom-made scenario designed to hurt the Aptera (2/3rds the gasoline consumption as in your previous example), the payback period is longer than four years, and closer to five. *ooooh*. What a terrifyingly long period to wait for payback. And this assumes that there are no significant tax breaks for the Aptera. For example, the $6k tax credit (not deduction -- credit) in the new energy bill.
On the plus side the electric car has 'kewl factor' in it's favor up against insane cost to repair as a negative because exotic always equals expensive when you roll into a garage.
And you'll be rolling onto a garage when? You don't even need oil changes. The only things that can be expected to "break" with any relevant period are the brake pads/rotors and the tires -- and these are all standard components, not exotics. The tires are the same Potenzas as on the Insight, for example. And even on these things, you're looking at a lot less braking, since there are only three tires, not four, they have less weight on them, there are only two disc brakes, not four, and they're not used as much (thanks to regenerative braking). Oh, and you might wear through the drive belt a time or two, but again, not some exotic part there.
I already covered battery maintenance. The electric motor is sealed and should last for the lifespan of the car. That's it -- that's the entire drivetrain right there. What, exactly, are you thinking is going to be breaking all the time? The AC?
The company just recently posted a video tour of their current production facility (they're in the process of moving to one ten times as big for full-scale production). It's pretty neat, and gives a good idea of just how far they've come, from Steve Fambro building a little wooden car in his garage (it's now a plant holder), to an empty steel frame they built to make sure that the suspension system would work (it's now a wall decoration), to the Mk0 and its spartan interior, to the ever-impressive Mk1 pre-production prototypes.
Can't wait for the test drives; this should be really fun;)
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The transmission problem is interesting. Basically, they had this neat idea to do clutchless shifting by having the motor controller adjust the RPM during the shift. The problem was something that they didn't count on: the motor had too much rotational inertia, so they couldn't adjust the RPM fast enough. So, the motor would tear up the transmission. It wasn't that the transmission was somehow bad; it was just that their idea was unworkable.
Tesla gets its stated range... if you drive it like a normal car. If you drive it like a sports car, no surprise, your range gets reduced, just like you get worse mileage on high power gasoline cars when you actually exploit their power instead of driving them normally.
The Tesla is shipping.
;)
Apart from Musk, the people who have their Teslas are...?
At the rate Tesla is going, Aptera customers will be receiving theirs before Tesla customers do.
Tesla is no more on the market than Aptera. Musk has his, but that's about it. By that standard, you could say that Fambro has his Aptera ;) Tesla is only about six months ahead of them in schedule.
You know that the head of the Ford GT, Dodge Viper, and Saleen S7 projects (Neil Hannemann) is heading up production for Aptera, right? And that they've got all of their VC funding that they need through '09? And that they're already churning out copies for structural safety tests right now (full crash testing will be in a few months; right now, it's mainly crush strength tests)
ZAP is a company that bilked investors by talking about goods that only existed in CG images, referred to deals that were never made, split stock over and over, and sold *way* underpowered golf carts with no safety features, made in China, at *way* overpriced prices. On every front, Aptera is exactly the opposite. It has a very small number of investors, is not publicly traded, everyone who's gotten to drive the pre-production prototypes raves about them, and $27k is very cheap for a highway-speed composite-shelled EV.
The waiver, which isn't too unusual for sporty cars like the Tesla, is about the automatic ability to *deactivate* the passenger-side airbag when there's a child in the seat. Airbags can kill small children.
Cars like the Tesla will never come down in price that much, and even if they did, you wouldn't be able to afford upkeep on the batteries (they use laptop cells; they pamper them, but even still, that LiCoO2 cathode is still going to kill the cells after several years). Tesla is simply not designed around low price; it's designed around performance and range for a high-end target customer.
Now, this doesn't mean that *EVs* won't come down in price. There are already a number of them coming out (see my post further down) with prices in the $25-30k range that'll give you 0-60 in 7-10 seconds and 100-120 miles range, with the whole range of modern safety and comfort features. They use less energy-dense variants of li-ion, such as phosphates and spinels, that have vastly superior lifespans that should last at least a decade, and probably last the lifespan of the vehicle. The batteries should also be cheaper once they enter mass production due to their much cheaper raw ingredients.
And, for those of you with more down to earth budgets, there's always Aptera, which starts shipping this winter (although reservations are filled through almost the end of '09 already). 2+1 seater, hyperefficient, space-age styling, 120 miles for all-electric or 40 miles electric + 130mpg. Test drives and factory tours start in a month or so.
If they bring it to the US (probably around the 2010 timeframe), there Mitsubishi i-EV -- 4 seater, 100 miles, styled like a cross between a VW beetle and a PT cruiser, or perhaps between a Prius and a minivan.
There's also the Chevy Volt, late 2010, a 4 seater PHEV (40 miles electric, 50mpg after that) with "chopped" styling (I find it ugly, but a lot of people find it "sporty").
Lastly, as a bit more of a long shot, there's the VentureOne, a tandem two-seater cross between a car and a motorcycle that tilts into turns. 120 miles in the EV version, and should be pretty efficient, too.
The hotter you run panels, the less efficient they are, and the faster they degrade. Just so you know.
I got the impression that the author was looking more for alternative ways to use the power than "homebrew grid tie-in". For example, I used to run the vent fan on my greenhouse based on solar power. When the sun went down or when it was cloudy (i.e., when you didn't want the fan running), it'd stop. I'd imagine something like that would be nice for an attic fan setup, too.
Think of things in your house that you really don't need to run on grid power -- nonessential items. Perhaps, since this is just for a hobby, you could create a single dedicated socket that you don't use all the time that provides your renewable power to household devices. Your power could be fed into a battery, which would then be fed into a cheap store inverter. You'd want it to be on a switch so that your inverter doesn't run nonstop and drain your batteries, of course. You would, of course, have to have a battery back for such a solution.
Those are helpful numbers, but they can't tell the whole story. Electric range should be expressed not just in miles, but also in miles per kWh used to charge up.
That's fair enough; I wouldn't mind a third stat added in there.
Actually, no, it doesn't unless you're referring to cartoony images, but that's beside the point. The optimal aerodynamic shape is a teardrop. The Aptera approximates that as closely as possible within the constraints of traffic regulations and highway-speed safety. To make up for the ever-so-slightly blunted tail, they fill in the partial vaccuum with air from a vent fan.
In some cases, a series gasoline hybrid can perform better on the highway than an equivalent gasoline-only car, so I imagine the same would be true with diesels. It lets you have a smaller engine without sacrificing acceleration and also lets the engine run at optimal speeds at all times. Currently, one big problem is the inefficient storage of power in the batteries. Li-ion series hybrids should perform better than the current NiMH ones. Also, two-mode hybrids should have the same benefits (they use clutches to deactivate parts of the drivetrain that don't need to be running at any given point in time).
Not sure how on earth you got modded down to -1 for talking in math ("Karma police -- arrest this man!"), but I'll further what you said: I recently did my budget, and found that in the past year, with no "major" things breaking (like the transmission or the engine block), maintenance on my car was about $1,000. All the little things add up. One of the big maintenance problems with an ICE drivetrain is that there are just so darned many parts. Even if they all average having significant lifespans, the costs are still going to rack up. Part of the beauty of EV drivetrains is that they're so simple. I've talked to former EV-1 owners and RAV4EV owners, and both loved this about their cars; they had virtually no maintenance.
Unless there's a new EP Act
Why yes, there is. The house bill only applies to PHEVs, but A) there is a movement to try and get pure BEVs covered in the senate version, and B) cars with solar panels could possibly qualify as a solar-electric hybrid.
Also, you ignore state and local incentives.
but you're fooling yourself if you think any of these cars will result in saving consumers money.
Yeah, it's not like I spend a couple thousand dollars per year on gasoline. Oh, wait, *I do*.
vehicle cost
$27k. Plus taxes (like on any car), minus incentives.
taxes
Covered.
fuel cost
A savings of a couple thousand dollars per year. So even if you're comparing the Aptera to a *free car*, just from the fuel cost savings alone, you have a ten year or so payback. Which equals 14 or 15 years when adjusted for interest -- still less than the average car's lifespan. And this is ignoring maintenance (see below). Let me reiterate: you ultimately end up saving money *buying a new car with luxury features and a miniscule environmental footprint* than driving a *free* car over the lifespan of both, ignoring maintenance (and if you get a car for free, it's probably old and a maintenance nightmare).
maintenance cost
Already covered. Battery maintenance should be similar to or less than maintenance on a transmission (the batteries should last the life of the car, but even if you had to replace them once, you're only looking at a couple thousand). There are about 10% of the moving parts in an EV drivetrain as in an ICE drivetrain, so for everything else, you're looking at a major maintenance reduction.
insurance cost
Liability coverage will be lower due to the motorcycle classification and light weight. Hard to say whether comprehensive will be higher or lower (depends on whether the extra vehicle coverage costs beats the decreased liability costs).
infrastructure cost to provide electrical outlets to parking lots/garages
The Aptera, by default, charges from a normal household power outlet, which can be found in almost every home in the US. If garages want to make extra money installing them, that's their business, but one thing is for sure: they'll be an order of magnitude cheaper than gas pumps to install. Even fast chargers would be cheaper than gas pumps when you factor in the cost to install things like the underground gas tanks and the extra amortized costs of fuel delivery (compared to easier electricity delivery).
and any unforeseen costs that such a change to our current system will incur.
Yeah, you mean like all of those "costs" associated with reducing gasoline consumption, such as long-term energy independence, a lower dependence on countries that hate us, more predictable energy costs, reduced air pollution, reduced healthcare costs from said reduced air pollution, reduced spoiling of wilderness lands for oil extraction, and so forth?
It DOES NOT have AC, it has a heat pump.
Hey, genius: an AC *is* a heat pump. What we colloquially refer to a "heat pump" is the same thing as an AC, except it can run in the other direction for heating as well (more accurately, it's a "reversible cycle heat pump"). Reversible cycle heat pumps are no less efficient at cooling than ones that can do cooling only.
[quote]Citations please? Everything I've been able to find about LiP cells has been written by (or sourced from) somebody trying to sell them, apart from this IOP article, which only tests the cells through 100 charge cycles, and also notes some strange behavior with regard to the internal impedance of the cells after just 30 charge cycles.[/quote]
What, exactly, are you looking for? Real-world use? Sure, here you go. Or perhaps this. Or almost anything from that site. And remember, these are amateurs, and the sort of loads they're putting on these cells are an order of magnitude more than a BEV will ever do. As for "people trying to sell them", in the Volt, they're going to be having a very long battery warranty (they want to be able to ensure a minimum 10 year lifespan), so they *better* last, or GM's going to lose a fortune.
The company refuses to release crash-test data, despite claiming to have done several, and to have more or less finalized their design.
What on Earth are you talking about? The company has not done *any* physical crash tests; that's for late this summer/early this fall, once their new factory comes online. They *have* done crush tests and digital crash tests. They have pictures on their website from one of the digital crash tests and have described the overall results (they use the same crash software that BMW does). They also have a video tour that includes their crush rig.
Where are you getting this from?
If the Aptera is anything like Corbin Motors' Sparrow (dangerous)
Not even remotely.
or Merlin (pre-sold but never delivered)
Again, not even remotely.
Do I really need to run down the list of differences in both the vehicles and the companies? I'd think a cursory glance would be good enough for you.
the Aptera is still just a testcar.
No, the Aptera is a suite of vehicles, ranging from empty frames to test the suspension to the spartan Mk0 all the way to full-featured pre-production Mk1 models, made by a company who has one of the best names in the industry (Neil Hannemann -- Dodge Viper, Ford GT, Saleen S7, etc) managing their transition to mass production. What transition? They've already bought, and are currently moving into, a 100,000 square foot factory, and are rapidly expanding their staff. With what money? With their final round of VC funding, which should last them through the end of '09. What, exactly, are you thinking is going to be the problem here?
It's very easy: you just need two numbers:
* All-electric range in a standard driving cycle, in miles
* MPG in charge sustaining mode in a standard driving cycle
That's it. Let me list a couple (rough numbers, from memory):
Aptera Typ-1e: 120mi, N/A
Mitsubishi MiEV: 120mi, N/A
Aptera Typ-1h: 40mi, 130mpg
Chevrolet Volt: 40mi, 50mpg
Regular Prius: 0mi, 45mpg
Plug-in Prius: 18 mi, 50mpg
Makes for easy comparisons, no?
> Until someone figures out an economic system that inherently
> resists wastage of resources.
It's called capitalism you misguided product of Government Schools
How's the Chicago School treating ya? Let me guess: "externalities" are a myth made up to scare small children.
Wouldn't it be quicker if we just *literally* destroyed our environment with Ayn Rand books?
Getting a roadster, huh? That should be a lot of fun. :)
The bill has passed the house and is awaiting a Senate version to go through; it's stalled there, and it's possible it may take until next year. The house-passed version only applies to PHEVs; it requires an additional "significant" source of power in addition to batteries (whether a car with a small solar panel on the roof, like an Aptera Typ-1e, would qualify is up in the air). However, there is a movement to try and get it expanded to cover pure BEVs, too. If you'd like it to apply to your roadster, contact your senators and request that they make the change. A $6.2k credit is certainly relevant even on a roadster, and certainly worth the time to make a phone call, send an email, or write a letter.
At which point you'll decapitate the other driver. But hey, the same underlieing logic worked for SUVs.
That'd be some accident if you could make it *all the way* over the other vehicle. Plus, the Aptera is going to be lighter than virtually anything it can hit; if what it hits was able to survive rollover, it'd be able to survive an Aptera.
The Aptera is a magnificent achievement, especially for high school kids.
Aptera has absolutely nothing to do with high school kids. In fact, their head of production also headed up production on cars like the Ford GT, the Dodge Viper, and the Saleen S7.
But it's not designed to meet the same requirements the big automakers have to deal with
Yeah, they're only doing them voluntarily. So? Does that change the fact that it's been digitally crash tested and this fall will go through the full suite of physical crash tests? Does that change the fact that it has a very long crumple zone, at nearly four feet? That it has huge crush strengths, far better than most cars? That it has the most advanced airbags on the market? That it uses composites rather than steel? In fact, what more, exactly, would you have them do?
Firefly batteries have nice power density, but their energy density is still pretty bad. Lead-acid is really just obsolete tech.
I could be completely wrong here, but apart from the OLPC, LiP cells have never entered into commercial use, and not very much is known about their longetivity, or how well the economics of scale will apply to their production if/when they become popular.
LiP cells have entered wide use in power tools, and are taking increasing roles in RC airplanes, RC helicopters, robotics, and other tasks. A BEV will stress the cells a lot less than any of the above things. Automotive uses for LiP are relatively new -- none mass produced yet, and ones built in limited quantities have only been on the road for a few years
Assuming that LiP cells share the same time durability as "traditional" LiCoO2 cells, 24 months seems like a better timeframe.
That's just the point of them -- that they *don't* share the durability of LiCoO2 cells. That's the primary reason that they get rid of the LiCoO2 cathode and replace it with a more stable one that has lower energy density. LiP is to LiCoO2 as nickel-iron was to lead-acid at the turn of the century (nickel-iron "Edison cells" being what powered the Detroit Electrics -- Jay Leno's 1909 electric car still runs on its original nickel-iron cells).
Batteries do not fundamentally have to have short lifespans; it all depends on the particular chemistry. A123 expects their cells in the volt to be good for 7000+ charge cycles. LG chem expects 40 years out of their spinel cells. And a BEV stresses its batteries less than a PHEV like the Volt.
Similarly, although potentially not a big deal for you, the lack of storage space could be a big issue to some people, as the "econoboxes" tend to offer a fairly decent amount of cargo space (and at least 4 seats).
The Aptera has 15.9 cubic feet of cargo space. That's not small. It's also "long", which will help for carrying awkward-shaped items, and has a big hatch to make getting to them easier.
Used cars are also another option. A nice used vehicle can be had for under $10,000, which causes them to win virtually every cost-benefit analysis you can think of
If you put $2-3k in gasoline costs on a vehicle every year, it's hard to come up with a comparison where a 10k vehicle wins for more than a few years. Even a free vehicle will lose in under a decade's time. And this assumes that the cheapo vehicle lasts for that long in comparison to the brand new Aptera.
The Aptera also doesn't look particularly safe. In fact, I'd be hesitant to go anywhere near a highway in one. It looks about as safe as a motorcycle (eg. not at all).
Please explain what's unsafe about a composite shell (several times stronger than steel), an F1-style roll cage that comprises a good chunk of the vehicle's total weight, a 45" crumple zone, a deflection system designed to make the car ride up and over in an accident, double the NTSB standard roof crush strength, double the NTSB standard door crush strength, and the most advanced airbags available. While you're at it, explain how it will roll over with a 7" wheelbase, a low CG, and downforce from the shape.
You live further than 50 miles or so away from work *and* there is no way for you to connect to a normal household power outlet there, *and* the business wouldn't be amenable to installing an outlet, *and* the city won't either? In this situation which applies to just a couple percent of American commuters, get a PHEV or wait for the next gen of batteries.
So lets do the 60 month deal and pay $250/month plus $200 a month for gas. Total cost is $450/month to commute in an econobox.On a 48 month note the math gets worse
Yes, you're right -- in your custom-made scenario designed to hurt the Aptera (2/3rds the gasoline consumption as in your previous example), the payback period is longer than four years, and closer to five. *ooooh*. What a terrifyingly long period to wait for payback. And this assumes that there are no significant tax breaks for the Aptera. For example, the $6k tax credit (not deduction -- credit) in the new energy bill.
On the plus side the electric car has 'kewl factor' in it's favor up against insane cost to repair as a negative because exotic always equals expensive when you roll into a garage.
And you'll be rolling onto a garage when? You don't even need oil changes. The only things that can be expected to "break" with any relevant period are the brake pads/rotors and the tires -- and these are all standard components, not exotics. The tires are the same Potenzas as on the Insight, for example. And even on these things, you're looking at a lot less braking, since there are only three tires, not four, they have less weight on them, there are only two disc brakes, not four, and they're not used as much (thanks to regenerative braking). Oh, and you might wear through the drive belt a time or two, but again, not some exotic part there.
I already covered battery maintenance. The electric motor is sealed and should last for the lifespan of the car. That's it -- that's the entire drivetrain right there. What, exactly, are you thinking is going to be breaking all the time? The AC?
Heh, neat :)
;)
The company just recently posted a video tour of their current production facility (they're in the process of moving to one ten times as big for full-scale production). It's pretty neat, and gives a good idea of just how far they've come, from Steve Fambro building a little wooden car in his garage (it's now a plant holder), to an empty steel frame they built to make sure that the suspension system would work (it's now a wall decoration), to the Mk0 and its spartan interior, to the ever-impressive Mk1 pre-production prototypes.
Can't wait for the test drives; this should be really fun