People thought they knew how to use them. They assumed that the form would be arranged in the way they expected.
It was in the papers for weeks before the elections. Directions were posted everywhere. There were people on hand to help if needed. What more do you want. Yes it was a bad design, but if you are confused after ignoring the directions, ask for help.
Should you really go into an election expecting an elaborate fraud?
Fraud from a democrat no less. Look into who is in charge of the voting in that county and approved the design.
threatening language in your signature is annoying.
Sorry you feel that way. I'm simply mirroring a common pro-choice arguement and inserting my closely held beliefs of my constitutional right. I don't mean to annoy you and I certainly am not threating anyone any more than the pro-choice movement is when they say the same thing.
Honestly, I think Gore is handling this perfectly. I hope if the results change that Bush is as gracious and concedes to Gore. Even though I voted for Bush I think the most important thing now is that this be over we move on. Turning it into a lawyer infested slugfest is not going to help anyone.
In my county, we had the same thing, and the card fit in snugly and didn't allow for any movement. I don't know how Palm Beach's were, but if they were the same as mine, they lined up perfectly.
The way to prevent mob rule is *equal* representation.
Wrong, equal representation IS mob rule. If we had equal representation the only states that would matter at all were CA, FL, NY, and TX. Campaign in those states and promise to help them while screwing the rest of the country and you win. Remember our country was founded on the ideal of state's rights and the EC systems gives the state's the ability to vote directly on the election. The state also decides how to vote, whether going by the popular vote or dividing itself up into regions and assigning electors to them. The "winner-takes-all" may be wrong, but you have to fight to change that in the states where it is instituted. They decided, not the federal government.
It's nice to know what you'd like to discriminate against the physically handicapped.
From the post you responded to
If you cannot communicate your choice on a simple ballot that 99.999% of the population either understands, or has the forsight to ask for help before randomly punching holes, than that is YOUR problem.
I never said they can't vote, but if they cannot correctly do it themselves, they should ask for help.
It gives us all a good look at the kind of person you really are.
And I know what kind of person you are. Someone who glances at something, doesn't read the whole thing and acts impulsivly on it. You are a Palm Beach voter, aren't you?:)
The reason the electorial college isn't more proportional is to make it harder to get elected. If it was completly proportional, all one would have to do is promise lower taxes and more federal funding to TX, CA, NY, and FL and f*ck the rest of the country. As it stands now, the EC balances out the state's rights vs individual rights. If we went by the state's wishes, bush has a landslide, more states want him. If we go by the popular vote, gore squeaks by and wins. The EC provedes balance.
From you linked post:
One lady said she saw a dot RIGHT NEXT to the word Democratic, not the separating line above -- that turned out to be the Buchanan hole.
How does she know it turned out to be "the Buchanan hole"?
Let say it was confusing (I still don't think it was, but hey), is that wrong? The complain to the democrat who approved them (County Elections Supervisor Theresa LePore, if you are playing along at home). I doubt she was part of a conspiracy to draw voted to Buchanan. So anyway, it was confusing, now what? Do we revote? Do we assume every vote for Buchanan was supposed to go to Gore? Do we call everyone who voted for Buchanan and ask if they want to change their vote? I really don't know how something like that would be handled?
Most of the Democrats who were in favor of the electoral system last week are still in favor of it (for example, this guy named Gore who you may have heard of -- still in favor of the electoral college, as well as all his publicly speaking advisors).
I wasn't making a quantification of Democrats as a whole, just the "talking heads" that were complaining about it on TV (msnbc, cnn, etc). It's also only fair to note that the repubs on TV made the opposite switch when circumstances changed.
What a load of crap! Everyone over the age of 18 (and in my opinion, even younger) is qualified to vote, regardless of whether or not *you* approve, asshole.
What a strong, factually incorrect opinion you have. Convicted felons are not qualified to vote. I know this isn't what you are talking about, but at least get it right.
Wow. First off, who are you to say that my right of freedom is speech is dependent on my responsibility to vote?
Interesting logical jump.Nobody said it would be illegal for you complain. Complain all you want, if you didn't vote then I personally don't give a rat's ass about your complaints. As far as I'm concerned you have to right to complain, but feel free under the first amendment to complain all you want.
Some people said that it appeared to them that they had to vote once for president and once for VP.
And I'm sure other people are capable of following directions correctly or at least asking for help or clarification instead of randomly punching holes, then magically realising your mistake hours later.
Also, several people who accidently voted for Buchanan rather than Gore were told by polesters that they 'could not' change their vote.
I haven't heard this in any of the news reports yet. Any source on that?
I'm tired of this Bullshit! Everyone's votes counts, and everyone should be allowed to vote. Just because someone doesn't meet your standard of intelligence doesn't mean they're not worthy of voting for the candidate of their choice.
True, but you must have the basic motor coordination and reasoning skills to physically cast your vote. If you cannot communicate your choice on a simple ballot that 99.999% of the population either understands, or has the forsight to ask for help before randomly punching holes, than that is YOUR problem.
Maybe next time we should have computer monitors with great big colored buttons and a windows-style "are you really sure yes/no" dialogue boxes for the voters in palm beach.
Ehm yes...thank you, that made it even more clear to me that the Electoral College system is totally unfair, I would even go as far as saying that it's NOT democratic at all. People should choose the president, not states.
That's right, it's not democratic. It's not supposed to be. We are not a democracy, we are a "republic". The rational behind the EC was to have the states elect the president, with the states using the popular vote to decide how they voted. This also prevented the "mob rule" problems inherent in true democratic governments.
I find it humerous that the democrats that were on TV last week expousing the virtues of an electorial college system (when it was assumed that Gore would win the EC, but lose the popular vote) are now calling for it's removal and complaining how unfair it is:)
I've seen the palm beach ballot (I assume most of us have by now) and it's not that confusing. Could it have been designed better? Sure, complain to County Elections Supervisor Theresa LePore, a Democrat. She basically said the ballot was drawn up that way because there were so many candidates and because she wanted the names to be large enough for older people to read. I don't think you can claim Vast Right-Wing Conspiricy(tm) on this one.
We aren't talking about a processor schematic here, it was very simple to follow the bold arrows from the name to the punch hole next to the name. If you are too ----ing stupid to follow directions and do that, then how did you even find the voting place to begin with?:)
It's been said by others, but it bears repeting. Buchanan has relatives in Palm beach, and often gets pretty good turnout there.
Last, I keep hearing stories of 'thousands' calling up the Gore campaign in tears saying the voted for the wrong person because of the ballot. How on Earth did you realise that at home, hours later, and not WHEN YOU VOTED? The whole thing sounds pretty suspicious.
All that proves is that the network has some pretty good ops, while this "rendition" guy is a whiner who did something wrong (by his own admissions) and can't deal with the consequences of it.
They do as much or as little they (and their president) want. There is no rule that the VP cannot handle certain aspects of the office. There is NO perfect human that knows everything about politics and can preform every function of the executive branch at 100%. ALL presidents delagate and have advisors.
Correct, knowing different things doesn't mean that Bush is less intelligent. It's that Bush doesn't know things that he obviously _should_ know for this _job_, and his apparent lack of concern in not knowing them, that scares me.
You can look at it that way. I prefer to look at it as favorable to have someone who isn't arrogant enough to think that they know the best way to do everything and will defer to the best decision, policy, or idea, whether it came from them or not.
I'd vote Bush, except I make my own decisions.
How delightfuly condesending of you. Let me return with an pointless, meaningless jibe of my own:
"I'd vote for Gore but I'm not a child molestor"
Not to burst your bubble, but Clinton didn't run the whole show either. He had plenty of advisors that you didn't vote for. Now plenty of them jumped ship, some were indicted, and a few committed suicide, but they were still there. Albright pretty much runs the forign policy show, doing all the actual work. Clinton steps in for the photo shoots.
of course, Gore is just as big an idiot. i just disagree with those who believe that Bush is some kinda genius. i just don't see it.
They are both pretty damn smart. Neither are rocket scientists, but I think both have the intelligence to be president. The election comes down to issues with me and I tend to side with Bush on them. No disrespect to Gore, I just don't support the ideals he proposes.
like the saying goes, If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would come rushing to your rescue.
Well, oil is pretty vital to our economy, so much that congress (and several other countries, you will remember) supported the action in the gulf. Al Gore, possibly the man who hates oil the second most in this election (after Nader) gave it his support.
Either way, I'd take a gulf war over 40 some odd military actions that had no clear goal anyday.
and Gore was about average at _the_ highest ranked school in the country.
This is stupid to argue about, since it really doesn't mean anything, but Gore's academic record can't hold a candle to Bush's. It's still irrevelant though.
eh? governor of a state is more analagous to the presidency than the vice presidency? that's nuts. what's Bush's experience with foreign countries? (and _please_ don't say mexico) Bush's constituency is one state. Gore's was a nation.
A nation in which he had 8 years to do everything he is promising AGAIN! Either way, I have two words for you, Dick Cheney. He has more forign policy experience than Gore could ever assemble from his cronies.
that the guy's any more intelligent than your average weed.
I can't understand how people can say that. Being able to deal with people, work with complex laws, and provide leadership may not be the same as memorizing tcp ports, but it is still intelligence. Just cause he doesn't know the things you know doesn't make him less intelligent. Believe me, when it comes to politics, I'm willing to bet that Gore and Bush are more intelligent than everyone on slashdot.
Slashdot Mirror
People thought they knew how to use them. They assumed that the form would be arranged in the way they expected.
It was in the papers for weeks before the elections. Directions were posted everywhere. There were people on hand to help if needed. What more do you want. Yes it was a bad design, but if you are confused after ignoring the directions, ask for help.
Should you really go into an election expecting an elaborate fraud?
Fraud from a democrat no less. Look into who is in charge of the voting in that county and approved the design.
Finkployd
threatening language in your signature is annoying.
Sorry you feel that way. I'm simply mirroring a common pro-choice arguement and inserting my closely held beliefs of my constitutional right. I don't mean to annoy you and I certainly am not threating anyone any more than the pro-choice movement is when they say the same thing.
Finkployd
Honestly, I think Gore is handling this perfectly. I hope if the results change that Bush is as gracious and concedes to Gore. Even though I voted for Bush I think the most important thing now is that this be over we move on. Turning it into a lawyer infested slugfest is not going to help anyone.
Finkployd
In my county, we had the same thing, and the card fit in snugly and didn't allow for any movement. I don't know how Palm Beach's were, but if they were the same as mine, they lined up perfectly.
Finkployd
The way to prevent mob rule is *equal* representation.
Wrong, equal representation IS mob rule. If we had equal representation the only states that would matter at all were CA, FL, NY, and TX. Campaign in those states and promise to help them while screwing the rest of the country and you win. Remember our country was founded on the ideal of state's rights and the EC systems gives the state's the ability to vote directly on the election. The state also decides how to vote, whether going by the popular vote or dividing itself up into regions and assigning electors to them. The "winner-takes-all" may be wrong, but you have to fight to change that in the states where it is instituted. They decided, not the federal government.
Finkployd
It's nice to know what you'd like to discriminate against the physically handicapped.
:)
From the post you responded to
If you cannot communicate your choice on a simple ballot that 99.999% of the population either understands, or has the forsight to ask for help before randomly punching holes, than that is YOUR problem.
I never said they can't vote, but if they cannot correctly do it themselves, they should ask for help.
It gives us all a good look at the kind of person you really are.
And I know what kind of person you are. Someone who glances at something, doesn't read the whole thing and acts impulsivly on it. You are a Palm Beach voter, aren't you?
Finkployd
You need basic motor skills to vote in your perfect world? Perfect, I know I don't want Stephen Hawking voting!
"has the forsight to ask" - from the post you responded to. If you can't do it, don't randomly punch holes then bitch about it later, get help!
Finkployd
That's why I'm loving this. I hope this grinds government to a halt for four years. The less they do, the better off we all are :)
Finkployd
The reason the electorial college isn't more proportional is to make it harder to get elected. If it was completly proportional, all one would have to do is promise lower taxes and more federal funding to TX, CA, NY, and FL and f*ck the rest of the country. As it stands now, the EC balances out the state's rights vs individual rights. If we went by the state's wishes, bush has a landslide, more states want him. If we go by the popular vote, gore squeaks by and wins. The EC provedes balance.
Finkployd
From you linked post:
One lady said she saw a dot RIGHT NEXT to the word Democratic, not the separating line above -- that turned out to be the Buchanan hole.
How does she know it turned out to be "the Buchanan hole"?
Let say it was confusing (I still don't think it was, but hey), is that wrong? The complain to the democrat who approved them (County Elections Supervisor Theresa LePore, if you are playing along at home). I doubt she was part of a conspiracy to draw voted to Buchanan. So anyway, it was confusing, now what? Do we revote? Do we assume every vote for Buchanan was supposed to go to Gore? Do we call everyone who voted for Buchanan and ask if they want to change their vote? I really don't know how something like that would be handled?
Finkployd
Most of the Democrats who were in favor of the electoral system last week are still in favor of it (for example, this guy named Gore who you may have heard of -- still in favor of the electoral college, as well as all his publicly speaking advisors).
I wasn't making a quantification of Democrats as a whole, just the "talking heads" that were complaining about it on TV (msnbc, cnn, etc). It's also only fair to note that the repubs on TV made the opposite switch when circumstances changed.
Finkployd
Most of the Slashdot posters can't bother to RTFM when it comes to their own government.
.sig :)
That would make a great
Finkployd
What a load of crap! Everyone over the age of 18 (and in my opinion, even younger) is qualified to vote, regardless of whether or not *you* approve, asshole.
What a strong, factually incorrect opinion you have. Convicted felons are not qualified to vote. I know this isn't what you are talking about, but at least get it right.
Finkployd
Wow. First off, who are you to say that my right of freedom is speech is dependent on my responsibility to vote?
Interesting logical jump.Nobody said it would be illegal for you complain. Complain all you want, if you didn't vote then I personally don't give a rat's ass about your complaints. As far as I'm concerned you have to right to complain, but feel free under the first amendment to complain all you want.
Finkployd
Some people said that it appeared to them that they had to vote once for president and once for VP.
And I'm sure other people are capable of following directions correctly or at least asking for help or clarification instead of randomly punching holes, then magically realising your mistake hours later.
Also, several people who accidently voted for Buchanan rather than Gore were told by polesters that they 'could not' change their vote.
I haven't heard this in any of the news reports yet. Any source on that?
Finkployd
I'm tired of this Bullshit! Everyone's votes counts, and everyone should be allowed to vote. Just because someone doesn't meet your standard of intelligence doesn't mean they're not worthy of voting for the candidate of their choice.
True, but you must have the basic motor coordination and reasoning skills to physically cast your vote. If you cannot communicate your choice on a simple ballot that 99.999% of the population either understands, or has the forsight to ask for help before randomly punching holes, than that is YOUR problem.
Maybe next time we should have computer monitors with great big colored buttons and a windows-style "are you really sure yes/no" dialogue boxes for the voters in palm beach.
Finkployd
No, that is incorrect, they can be recieved up to 10 days after the election, but must be post marked prior to the election day.
Finkployd
"Whom the gods have chosen to destroy they will teach IBM JCL programming."
And we will ABEND
:)
Finkployd
Ehm yes...thank you, that made it even more clear to me that the Electoral College system is totally unfair, I would even go as far as saying that it's NOT democratic at all. People should choose the president, not states.
:)
That's right, it's not democratic. It's not supposed to be. We are not a democracy, we are a "republic". The rational behind the EC was to have the states elect the president, with the states using the popular vote to decide how they voted. This also prevented the "mob rule" problems inherent in true democratic governments.
I find it humerous that the democrats that were on TV last week expousing the virtues of an electorial college system (when it was assumed that Gore would win the EC, but lose the popular vote) are now calling for it's removal and complaining how unfair it is
Finkployd
I've seen the palm beach ballot (I assume most of us have by now) and it's not that confusing. Could it have been designed better? Sure, complain to County Elections Supervisor Theresa LePore, a Democrat. She basically said the ballot was drawn up that way because there were so many candidates and because she wanted the names to be large enough for older people to read. I don't think you can claim Vast Right-Wing Conspiricy(tm) on this one.
:)
We aren't talking about a processor schematic here, it was very simple to follow the bold arrows from the name to the punch hole next to the name. If you are too ----ing stupid to follow directions and do that, then how did you even find the voting place to begin with?
It's been said by others, but it bears repeting. Buchanan has relatives in Palm beach, and often gets pretty good turnout there.
Last, I keep hearing stories of 'thousands' calling up the Gore campaign in tears saying the voted for the wrong person because of the ballot. How on Earth did you realise that at home, hours later, and not WHEN YOU VOTED? The whole thing sounds pretty suspicious.
Finkployd
All that proves is that the network has some pretty good ops, while this "rendition" guy is a whiner who did something wrong (by his own admissions) and can't deal with the consequences of it.
Finkployd
Vice Presidents don't do as much as you imply.
They do as much or as little they (and their president) want. There is no rule that the VP cannot handle certain aspects of the office. There is NO perfect human that knows everything about politics and can preform every function of the executive branch at 100%. ALL presidents delagate and have advisors.
Correct, knowing different things doesn't mean that Bush is less intelligent. It's that Bush doesn't know things that he obviously _should_ know for this _job_, and his apparent lack of concern in not knowing them, that scares me.
You can look at it that way. I prefer to look at it as favorable to have someone who isn't arrogant enough to think that they know the best way to do everything and will defer to the best decision, policy, or idea, whether it came from them or not.
I'd vote Bush, except I make my own decisions.
How delightfuly condesending of you. Let me return with an pointless, meaningless jibe of my own:
"I'd vote for Gore but I'm not a child molestor"
You are right, that is fun.
Finkployd
Not to burst your bubble, but Clinton didn't run the whole show either. He had plenty of advisors that you didn't vote for. Now plenty of them jumped ship, some were indicted, and a few committed suicide, but they were still there. Albright pretty much runs the forign policy show, doing all the actual work. Clinton steps in for the photo shoots.
of course, Gore is just as big an idiot. i just disagree with those who believe that Bush is some kinda genius. i just don't see it.
They are both pretty damn smart. Neither are rocket scientists, but I think both have the intelligence to be president. The election comes down to issues with me and I tend to side with Bush on them. No disrespect to Gore, I just don't support the ideals he proposes.
Finkployd
like the saying goes, If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would come rushing to your rescue.
Well, oil is pretty vital to our economy, so much that congress (and several other countries, you will remember) supported the action in the gulf. Al Gore, possibly the man who hates oil the second most in this election (after Nader) gave it his support.
Either way, I'd take a gulf war over 40 some odd military actions that had no clear goal anyday.
Finkployd
and Gore was about average at _the_ highest ranked school in the country.
This is stupid to argue about, since it really doesn't mean anything, but Gore's academic record can't hold a candle to Bush's. It's still irrevelant though.
eh? governor of a state is more analagous to the presidency than the vice presidency? that's nuts. what's Bush's experience with foreign countries? (and _please_ don't say mexico) Bush's constituency is one state. Gore's was a nation.
A nation in which he had 8 years to do everything he is promising AGAIN! Either way, I have two words for you, Dick Cheney. He has more forign policy experience than Gore could ever assemble from his cronies.
that the guy's any more intelligent than your average weed.
I can't understand how people can say that. Being able to deal with people, work with complex laws, and provide leadership may not be the same as memorizing tcp ports, but it is still intelligence. Just cause he doesn't know the things you know doesn't make him less intelligent. Believe me, when it comes to politics, I'm willing to bet that Gore and Bush are more intelligent than everyone on slashdot.
Finkployd