It was fascinating to read an article from several years ago on the subject that I sought out myself during my foreign exchange trip a few months ago.
I stayed with a family that was nearly at the height of Chinese affluence: they had power reaching into every crevice of the government, all the way up to the top. I drove the nicest cars. I used cell phones there that didn't even exist in the United States yet. I accessed the Internet through a DSL line at the place I stayed and watched satellite TV by night. But what I saw wasn't a resistance or backlash of technology of any sort. Instead, the Chinese seem to be embracing it en masse. The city I stayed in had at least two MAJOR computer malls that regularly staged computer building races, sold the latest software (pirated and legitimate both) and sported well-equipped computers that were being bought by the Chinese like hotcakes. I conversed best I could about the X-Box and its implications to some educated Chinese nerds (they were angry about the PS2 not being released to China). The author of the article posted made it sound like the Chinese are computer lightweights; in fact, the Chinese can be as nerdy as they come, it's just a smaller percentage of the population that is that way ('cause it takes a bit of wealth to gain access to computers). But 99% of the other people I met and saw were the exact opposite--peasants selling their wares in the urban area to be able to put rice on the table for the family. That's China for you. Inconsistent as hell. Some use plows and some use Windows.
Do I think China will get better? Of course, but first they need to solve their hunger problems fixed. Eventually the government will get its priorities straight and put their people before their need to posture for the rest of the world.
OK, now for a list of pointless computer observations:
Some games were REALLY popular, esp. Delta Force 2 and Age of Empires were the hot tickets when I was there, and the 3D card of choice was the Riva TNT (but the TNT2 Ultra was for sale). The most popular Intel motherboards were ASUS brand, the popular Athlon motherboard was the GA-17X (?), the most popular gamepad was a Sony Playstation counterfeit pad attached to the parallel port (I bought one called "HONY", hah!), the most popular clock speed was 600MHz (as of April), flat panels were just coming into vogue and therefore on the display of every computer I saw, and there was an entire FLOOR about 10,000 square feet PER MALL full of pirated software vendors (every one taking about 12 square feet per booth, each with well over a few thousand cds per vendor... I tried to take a picture but the guards wouldn't let me, because everybody knows it's bad, it's just nobody cares.) But despite all the computer shopping, the bicycle rides were the fun part of being there.;) (ok ok ok i'm done rambling)
Since MSIE is the de facto browser of choice and the other companies can't be bothered to make an actual significant release (those Mozilla milestones are the biggest bloatware pieces of trash I've seen), who can blame them for attempting to innovate? Microsoft once had to play catchup to Netscape's browser, but now, OH NO, GOD FORBID, it looks like Netscape will have to catch up to MS! DAMN YOU BILL GATES! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL! I use Opera because it takes less memory than MSIE, but if there's a page Opera can't load, I don't mind using MSIE to access it. It doesn't take 30 seconds to load up like it does for the newest Mozilla.
>Now that's an interesting exaggeration if I saw >one. The Spartans certainly made a great display >of courage at Thermopylæ, but even if we want to >take that reductive view of things (whereby the >Greeks are the ``good guys'' and the Persians are >the ``bad guys''), the Athenians should be the >real heroes. After all, they had beaten Darius at >Marathon ten years earlier, in 490 (first Median >war), and they destroyed Xerxes' fleet in >Salamis. Granted, Leonidas and his brave Spartans >probably bought the Athenians time, but Athens >nevertheless was sacked by Xerxes in 480 — >and despite this the Greeks were victorious. -- Many think that the Spartans actually won at Thermopylae, actually. They lost in terms of pure military numbers, but they *succeeded* in delivering the message that the Greeks were indominatable. Don't you think Xerxes was scared shitless by this brilliant show of military prowess on the behalf by a handful of Spartans? Don't you think this could have massively affected the actual endpoint of the entire war?
You failed to mention the battle of Plataea. The Spartans were the major players in that skirmish, and when they were able to flex their accumulated military muscle, they kicked the Persians' asses right out of Greece. I accredit the victory of the Persian War to the Spartans--the Athenians marked the turning point at Marathon--but the Spartans brought the ordeal to a decisive finish. --
>Besides, this reductive point of view leaves much >to be desired. Who are the great men (i.e. >scientists) of Greece? Thales, Anaximander, >Anaxagoras, Empedocles, Democritus and the like, >I would say: see any Athenians there? any >Spartans? Definitely not. Athens only produced >Plato and Aristotle, who merely served to justify >much of the philosophical mumbo-jumbo that was >qualified as ``science'' during the Middle Ages; >and Sparta produced nothing of note, and is now >an unremarkable village of the Peloponnesus (sic >transit). Thales lived in Miletus, which was >taken by the Persians at the end of the VIth >century (and no Athenians or Spartans rose to the >arms to defend their comrades against Media). -- The purpose of this piece of historical fiction was to portray the battle of Thermopylae and the mindset of the soldiers who fought in it, not somehow tie together all notable figures of Greek history and get them to work in a big wacky purely fictional plot. It's reduced for a reason: for example, when I write an autobiography, will I write about my escapades with every single major celebrity in America? No... they don't have anything to do with me. Same with Thermopylae and Plato. -- >I thank the League of Delos no more than I thank >Xerxes. As for the Spartans (or the Thebans, for >that matter), I hold some sympathy for them in >that they glorified homosexuality, but they were >assuredly not a very pleasant people. -- Nah, I don't think they glorified homosexuality at all. The Athenians certainly did--pederasty was an integral part of male society--but in comparison to the Spartans, the Spartans hardly even mentioned it. Homosexuality was tolerated, unremarkable even, in Spartan society between peers--but never was it encouraged or endorsed by the state (the sexual practices of homosexuality require one to be "passive", or feminine, which sacrifices the all-important characteristic of masculinity.) Boy-love was shunned, even punished, in Sparta if it was pursued to sexual ends.
Thebes, on the other hand... yeah, they glorified it all right.
I think the Spartans would have been a fine people--but in a different way. Our [American] society certainly isn't kind in comparison to the majority of other established societies (all this damn corporatism! advertisement! hiss) Sometimes I wish I could have meet or perhaps even been a Spartan--what an interesting experience that might've been. mm, pass me more of that tasty black bloody porridge!
"the hot gates" was a common nickname among the greeks at the time. apparently, it was quite a tourist attraction.. in fact, the spartans made use of the provisions of the visitors to their advantage during the duration of the battle of Thermopylae.
a man-boy sexual relationship was shunned in sparta, and would have resulted in exile from the city. as the book explains, to be seperated from one's city is to lose one's identity--the worst thing in the world--so no boy-fucking was done.
you're thinking "athens" here, buddy. as for homosexuality in general, it wasn't discouraged per se, but it wasn't a state institution, either. i won't bother to bring up the multitudes of theories about Spartan homosexuality, but I recommend you read the many books on the subject of Greek homosexuality before you make an inflammatory blanket statement like that. kevin
Re:"Into hair, eh? Do they like little boys too?"
on
Gates of Fire
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· Score: 1
i read that comic! talk about pervy.. kevin
Sparta & Slashdot together? Pinch me...
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Gates of Fire
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· Score: 2
Gates of Fire was interesting, but I thought that it didn't live up to its full potential as a piece of historical fiction. The role of historical fiction is to convey the gravity of the situation on hand, and Gates of Fire seemed to botch up on many of the most essential events. It has its share of pathos, true, but when it really counted, GOF just treated the most exciting scenes just as it did the others. There should be a difference in attention to detail, at least. Pressfield seems to have done his research for this book, and I commend him on that. However, I don't think that it would be right to say that this is a wholly accurate portrayal of Sparta. Sparta, being the martial society as it was, didn't have any native historians. What we know now is based upon scraps of archaeological evidence here and there, writings from historians 400+ years after the heyday of Sparta (Plutarch comes to mind.. Herodotus is a bit more trustworthy), and just pure conjecture. I think that Pressfield trusted the latter of those methods in devising his image of the core of Spartan society. However, I find many of his examples debatable, especially in the description of the Spartan home life: how could such a contrast between the [exaggerated] training of the soldiers and their idyllic little cottages a few miles away? Something seemed off about that. And where were the perioeci (free men around Sparta, but not Spartans; the middle rung in the ladder between slave and Spartiate) in the book? The author probably omitted describing them for the sake of focus, but I think that because the perioeci was part of the core of the Spartan society, they deserved some recognition.
As I can see from the posts, some have misinterpreted Sparta. Here's just a little bit in defense of the guys:
* The fact the the ratio between slaves to Spartans was 20:1 draws a lot of heat. "How," many ask, "can anybody say the Spartans were a good race when so many slaves existed?" Because the Spartans were out to war so often, they needed somebody to stay at home and keep the city productive. The result was MUCH increased freedom for women (the amount of freedom the Women were given was nearly 2000 years ahead of its time; even the wife of Leonidas commented, "in what other race does one find the women ruling the men?") and more slaves to work the farms. But when you put Sparta in contrast to its other Greek rival, Athens was just as bad. There was kind of a quality versus quantity tradeoff: while the Spartan slaves worked the farms and such (and annually had war declared on them to keep them in line), many of the Athenian slaves were sent to the silver mines where the expected average lifespan of the silverworker was measured in months. * No, the Spartans did not have a homosexual "sacred band" or "sacred pairs" or institutionalized homosexuality. Thebes was the city that had the Sacred Band, and with that army, it crushed the degraded forces of Sparta around the 4th Century BC. Homosexuality undoubtedly existed in Sparta, as it does in every society, but it wasn't just something that inevitably happened to a soldier in the Spartan army. Some have suggested sexual activity within the barracks divisions of the hoplites due to their being together as a group through many, many traumatic experiences for years... but then again, others say that is wrong. It's up for debate there. * To assume the Spartan society was stupid simply due to lack of archaelogical evidence is wrong. The Spartans didn't believe in frivolous writing; as a result, very little survives to this day. People are people; every society has its own intellectuals. Perhaps Sparta didn't tap its mental resources as much as Athens did, but it certainly wasn't a society of neanderthals.
If one is interested in a closer look on hoplite warfare to supplement the reading of Gates of Fire, check out "The Western Way of War" by Victor Davis Hanson. This provideds an exceptional look into not only the ancient battles of long ago, but also the nature of hoplite warfare as well as the state of the actual individuals inside those crimson panoplies.
Also, if Gates of Fire inspired some to become "philakones" (Sparta nerds) like myself, check out a website that a friend and I are constructing on the subject. http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~sparta/
..and yes, the book did make me want to be a Spartan. But I thought of that long ago...;P
Slashdot Mirror
Do I think China will get better? Of course, but first they need to solve their hunger problems fixed. Eventually the government will get its priorities straight and put their people before their need to posture for the rest of the world.
OK, now for a list of pointless computer observations: ;)
Some games were REALLY popular, esp. Delta Force 2 and Age of Empires were the hot tickets when I was there, and the 3D card of choice was the Riva TNT (but the TNT2 Ultra was for sale). The most popular Intel motherboards were ASUS brand, the popular Athlon motherboard was the GA-17X (?), the most popular gamepad was a Sony Playstation counterfeit pad attached to the parallel port (I bought one called "HONY", hah!), the most popular clock speed was 600MHz (as of April), flat panels were just coming into vogue and therefore on the display of every computer I saw, and there was an entire FLOOR about 10,000 square feet PER MALL full of pirated software vendors (every one taking about 12 square feet per booth, each with well over a few thousand cds per vendor... I tried to take a picture but the guards wouldn't let me, because everybody knows it's bad, it's just nobody cares.) But despite all the computer shopping, the bicycle rides were the fun part of being there.
(ok ok ok i'm done rambling)
Since MSIE is the de facto browser of choice and the other companies can't be bothered to make an actual significant release (those Mozilla milestones are the biggest bloatware pieces of trash I've seen), who can blame them for attempting to innovate? Microsoft once had to play catchup to Netscape's browser, but now, OH NO, GOD FORBID, it looks like Netscape will have to catch up to MS! DAMN YOU BILL GATES! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL! I use Opera because it takes less memory than MSIE, but if there's a page Opera can't load, I don't mind using MSIE to access it. It doesn't take 30 seconds to load up like it does for the newest Mozilla.
>Now that's an interesting exaggeration if I saw >one. The Spartans certainly made a great display >of courage at Thermopylæ, but even if we want to >take that reductive view of things (whereby the >Greeks are the ``good guys'' and the Persians are >the ``bad guys''), the Athenians should be the >real heroes. After all, they had beaten Darius at >Marathon ten years earlier, in 490 (first Median >war), and they destroyed Xerxes' fleet in >Salamis. Granted, Leonidas and his brave Spartans >probably bought the Athenians time, but Athens >nevertheless was sacked by Xerxes in 480 — >and despite this the Greeks were victorious.
--
Many think that the Spartans actually won at Thermopylae, actually. They lost in terms of pure military numbers, but they *succeeded* in delivering the message that the Greeks were indominatable. Don't you think Xerxes was scared shitless by this brilliant show of military prowess on the behalf by a handful of Spartans? Don't you think this could have massively affected the actual endpoint of the entire war?
You failed to mention the battle of Plataea. The Spartans were the major players in that skirmish, and when they were able to flex their accumulated military muscle, they kicked the Persians' asses right out of Greece. I accredit the victory of the Persian War to the Spartans--the Athenians marked the turning point at Marathon--but the Spartans brought the ordeal to a decisive finish.
--
>Besides, this reductive point of view leaves much >to be desired. Who are the great men (i.e. >scientists) of Greece? Thales, Anaximander, >Anaxagoras, Empedocles, Democritus and the like, >I would say: see any Athenians there? any >Spartans? Definitely not. Athens only produced >Plato and Aristotle, who merely served to justify >much of the philosophical mumbo-jumbo that was >qualified as ``science'' during the Middle Ages; >and Sparta produced nothing of note, and is now >an unremarkable village of the Peloponnesus (sic >transit). Thales lived in Miletus, which was >taken by the Persians at the end of the VIth >century (and no Athenians or Spartans rose to the >arms to defend their comrades against Media).
--
The purpose of this piece of historical fiction was to portray the battle of Thermopylae and the mindset of the soldiers who fought in it, not somehow tie together all notable figures of Greek history and get them to work in a big wacky purely fictional plot. It's reduced for a reason: for example, when I write an autobiography, will I write about my escapades with every single major celebrity in America? No... they don't have anything to do with me. Same with Thermopylae and Plato.
--
>I thank the League of Delos no more than I thank >Xerxes. As for the Spartans (or the Thebans, for >that matter), I hold some sympathy for them in >that they glorified homosexuality, but they were >assuredly not a very pleasant people.
--
Nah, I don't think they glorified homosexuality at all. The Athenians certainly did--pederasty was an integral part of male society--but in comparison to the Spartans, the Spartans hardly even mentioned it. Homosexuality was tolerated, unremarkable even, in Spartan society between peers--but never was it encouraged or endorsed by the state (the sexual practices of homosexuality require one to be "passive", or feminine, which sacrifices the all-important characteristic of masculinity.) Boy-love was shunned, even punished, in Sparta if it was pursued to sexual ends.
Thebes, on the other hand... yeah, they glorified it all right.
I think the Spartans would have been a fine people--but in a different way. Our [American] society certainly isn't kind in comparison to the majority of other established societies (all this damn corporatism! advertisement! hiss)
Sometimes I wish I could have meet or perhaps even been a Spartan--what an interesting experience that might've been. mm, pass me more of that tasty black bloody porridge!
Kevin
yeah, "gates of fire" probably sells more books.
Kevin
you're thinking "athens" here, buddy. as for homosexuality in general, it wasn't discouraged per se, but it wasn't a state institution, either. i won't bother to bring up the multitudes of theories about Spartan homosexuality, but I recommend you read the many books on the subject of Greek homosexuality before you make an inflammatory blanket statement like that. kevin
i read that comic! talk about pervy.. kevin
Pressfield seems to have done his research for this book, and I commend him on that. However, I don't think that it would be right to say that this is a wholly accurate portrayal of Sparta. Sparta, being the martial society as it was, didn't have any native historians. What we know now is based upon scraps of archaeological evidence here and there, writings from historians 400+ years after the heyday of Sparta (Plutarch comes to mind.. Herodotus is a bit more trustworthy), and just pure conjecture. I think that Pressfield trusted the latter of those methods in devising his image of the core of Spartan society. However, I find many of his examples debatable, especially in the description of the Spartan home life: how could such a contrast between the [exaggerated] training of the soldiers and their idyllic little cottages a few miles away? Something seemed off about that.
And where were the perioeci (free men around Sparta, but not Spartans; the middle rung in the ladder between slave and Spartiate) in the book? The author probably omitted describing them for the sake of focus, but I think that because the perioeci was part of the core of the Spartan society, they deserved some recognition.
As I can see from the posts, some have misinterpreted Sparta. Here's just a little bit in defense of the guys:
* The fact the the ratio between slaves to Spartans was 20:1 draws a lot of heat. "How," many ask, "can anybody say the Spartans were a good race when so many slaves existed?" Because the Spartans were out to war so often, they needed somebody to stay at home and keep the city productive. The result was MUCH increased freedom for women (the amount of freedom the Women were given was nearly 2000 years ahead of its time; even the wife of Leonidas commented, "in what other race does one find the women ruling the men?") and more slaves to work the farms. But when you put Sparta in contrast to its other Greek rival, Athens was just as bad. There was kind of a quality versus quantity tradeoff: while the Spartan slaves worked the farms and such (and annually had war declared on them to keep them in line), many of the Athenian slaves were sent to the silver mines where the expected average lifespan of the silverworker was measured in months.
* No, the Spartans did not have a homosexual "sacred band" or "sacred pairs" or institutionalized homosexuality. Thebes was the city that had the Sacred Band, and with that army, it crushed the degraded forces of Sparta around the 4th Century BC. Homosexuality undoubtedly existed in Sparta, as it does in every society, but it wasn't just something that inevitably happened to a soldier in the Spartan army. Some have suggested sexual activity within the barracks divisions of the hoplites due to their being together as a group through many, many traumatic experiences for years... but then again, others say that is wrong. It's up for debate there.
* To assume the Spartan society was stupid simply due to lack of archaelogical evidence is wrong. The Spartans didn't believe in frivolous writing; as a result, very little survives to this day. People are people; every society has its own intellectuals. Perhaps Sparta didn't tap its mental resources as much as Athens did, but it certainly wasn't a society of neanderthals.
If one is interested in a closer look on hoplite warfare to supplement the reading of Gates of Fire, check out "The Western Way of War" by Victor Davis Hanson. This provideds an exceptional look into not only the ancient battles of long ago, but also the nature of hoplite warfare as well as the state of the actual individuals inside those crimson panoplies.
Also, if Gates of Fire inspired some to become "philakones" (Sparta nerds) like myself, check out a website that a friend and I are constructing on the subject. http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~sparta/
Kevin