vote for people who will place conservative judges on the bench.
hell, you probably already did with our braindead president.
that IS working within the system.
and you didn't address the question of whether killing & harassment is working more within the system then using judges.
somehow I think that you probably do think that it is justified to kill doctors who do things you don't like, but you won't embarass yourself by stating that here.
So all of a sudden everyone who even supports abortions are murderers? Hmm - I've never killed anyone....and I help to keep abortion legal by working with NARAL (National Abortion Rights Action League). I would think that makes your logic flawed - but then again, I think it's clear that it is.
As far as the tantrum - you may not like it, but that is exactly how the far right is acting. (Oh, since we can't ahve our way being as mos of the public doesn't buy our bullshit, we'll just start killing people, and make impassioned speaches about tissue that we think should have a name)
And no - I don't have to know you to be able to make that republic judgement. You said you advocated killing abortion doctors, so you support people going outside of the system, instead of using it. clearly you are not respecting the establishment of our government (oh that's right - now that it's not run by clinton, who I can only assume you thought was pimping for the jews or some other assenine idea, maybe you feel like you are working with the republic)
I stand by my judgement of you on that.
Finally - your last fool point. I don't need "liberal activists" to tell me that the NRA, the christian coalition, the Neo Nazis, the KKK, the Anti Choice movement and the waco fucks out at ruby ridge or the montana freemen are all basically branches of the far right. Sure, each has a different objective:
NRA: keep guns
Anti-Choicers: Woman should have no right to choose if a man carries is seed to term or not
Christian Coalition: Get all these non christians out of this country
Neo Nazis: Get all these Jews out of the country
KKK: Get all of these blacks out of the country
hrm - I see alot of similarity there.
face it, the far right is based on the idea of hatign that which is different. Hell the CONCEPT of conservative (keep things the same) really pushes in that direction.
if you want a country where you can opress women, kill jews and blacks, and carry as many guns as you want - fine, but go found it somewhere else.
I consider people threatening to sue me for speaking freely to be harassment.
Oh - that's a good one. You think that to get people who are targeting your family, friends, children for harassement, and possible murder to be LESS damaging then to sue the person who started it.
that's fscking hilerious
Our society has a right to know who they are, so that we can make a decision whether or not to do business or associate with them.
Oh, so suddenly knowing children's names, and the residence of these people is necessary to not doing business? unless you are a door to door salesman I don't buy it. Even if you are, you would be the one intruding. Face it - you are trying to come up with bullshit excuses so that people can continue to use this site as an accomplice to murder. EVERYONE knows the real reason this site exists, and it is NOT business relations.
In order to legalize abortion, the left didn't do this. They got an activist court to legislate from the bench. How can you demand that we go about doing this in this way, when you side didn't?
Umm - excuse me, but last I looked, the court system was a part of our government. What using the courts to give us our rights back is worse then using harassment and murder to take them away again?
that by far has to be one of the worst arguments against me yet.
this has ABSOLUTLY nothing to do with anything you mentioned.
what this has to do with is a group is supplying a known group of terrorists with personal information with the ACTUAL intent that these people get killed.
I mispoke perhaps - because I (as the person talking to me) was referring to psyche. look at context before you spout off and call other people idiots.
1. Only if you are a christian is sex before marriage such a horrible thing. Even such - should you punish that person for the next 18 years because they made one mistake? Having a child before you ar ready can really destroy your life.
2. I neve said anything about forcing. this point is foolish and moot. If a person wants a child then that is their choice, if they do not want a child, it is their choice. They get to choose if they do the responsible thing (abort) or not.
I think it's clear that the site was about pushing people to use any terrorist tactics that they have at their disposal to try and stop these people.
I certainly consider taking pictures of the doctor, his children, and his wife and then mailing them to the doctor to be harassment.
I consider phone calls every night at three in the morning for an hour harassment.
I consider driving past a person's house constantly with binoculars to be at least suspisious.
the fact is, this is not about you and your church not doing business with this person, because clearly you won't. It is about people like Neal Horsley and perhaps yourself (I don't know) using any means necessary to harass and murder these people out of what they do.
If you want abortion to be illegal, join our system, and convince more then 50% that it is wrong. Don't do it by killing people, harassing them, and going outside the law.
Sure, and I suppose that we should deputise them all too, so they can legally hunt abortion doctors.
and I totall disagree with you - the only reason the pro-lifers are willing to go so far as to kill someone they disagree with is BECAUSE they are fundamentalist christians.
where else would they learn to be so judgemental of other people as to believe that they have the right to richously desend upon these doctors as if they were the avenging angel micheal himself.
do your homework - ALL of the people who have murdered abortion doctors are fundies, ALL of them.
what? now fetuses are a racial group that needs protection?
the difference here I think is that we ALL were fetuses at some point. We were not all jews at some point.
But hey, you can continue to live in your mideval dark ages, condemning everthing that does not fit in your religion's tiny world view. In the mean time, I will live in this society which values people's choice of religion. (and don't think for a moment that banning abortion is not a religion issue)
First off, I stand by my "Yelling Fire" statement, because the reason that is not protected speech is because it represents a clear threat to the lives of the people in the theater. I think the connection to this is clear, and does not need to be spelled out (but I will if anyone does not get it).
as far as your comments on racism & tobacco - This web site is not JUST about proclaiming that abortions are harmful or should be banned - it is also about providing terrorists with a hit list of doctors to murder, and is inciting people to do just that. Your example leaves one wanting when it comes to a comparison.
And yes, I DO think that (barring perhaps a regression or two to the ways of the past when a particularly conservative group gains control for a short period of time) we have evolved past the need to legislate christianity into our laws by making things like abortion illegal (which is a purely religious move).
I really believe that our society will not any time soon descend back into racisim, church control of state, women holding an inferior status, or banned abortion. Happly I think we as a society have for the most part worked past all of those.
Ahh - but a web site that was intended for the purpose of people finding doctors that give abortions would not be listing their home addresses, nor would it have lots of personal information about them, such as children's names, schools, spouses, spouses places of work and so on.
the information on this list is intended for only two purposes, harassing and murdering abortions providers. period, end of story.
The examples you brind forward would not contain they type of personal information that could be gleened from the Nuremburg files.
All true, but mix that with the fact that they are tracking the murders of these people, and the site is CLEARLY about how horrible these people are, it becomes somewhat questionable.
This site is practically begging for people to murder these doctors.
Like it or not, Abortion is legal, and for many people who don't want to have their lives trashed by having a child when they cannot reasonably care for one it is most deffinitly a service.
It is not by definition self-destructive. In many cases, abortions can lead towards a person having a far happier, and far more productive life.
No, of course picketing of corperations shouldn't be stopped. Heck - people who want to picket at abortion clinics should not be stopped (though i do support bubble laws).
The difference lies in three places:
1. Many of these people were actually unlisted.
2. People generally don't picket at the houses of the corperate officers - they picket at the offices. There is no need for these people to be circulating private addresses.
3. People generally don't go killing CEOs because they are upset about corperate policy. People DO kill doctors who provide abortion services.
the third one is really the important one. When an environemental group compiles a list of corperate offices to picket do they cross off the names of people related to those companies that have been murdered? No. Do the Nuremburg people do this? Yes.
Don't forget that three doctors have been shot shortly after being added to that list. I know correlation does not prove causation -> but there is deffinitly enough correlation to make one wonder....
But they ARE doing something. They are inciting murder - three doctors were murdered after beign placed on this list.
these people are accomplice to that, and they know it - but they are hiding behind freedom of speech so that they can use the list to help other doctors get shot.
Murder is illegal, Abortions ARE legal. Get over it.
If you don't like the law, try and change it. Resorting to murder and terrorist acts to get your way is no better then a child throwing a tantrum, which is exactly what the religous right sanctioned war against abortion providers is: a temper tantrum because you all didn't get your way.
Grow up and participate in the republic.
oh and by the way, where the hell do you get the idea that abortion doctors are "paid Nazi exterminators"? as far as I can tell, the neo-nazi movement has WAY more ties to the super conservative right....
This was more then just threatening to kill someone. The web site posted any information they could get about abortion doctors, in an attempt to make it easier to track and kill said doctors. This is not just a "I hate you and you should die page", this is a direct attempt to incite the already active domestic terrorists to kill more doctors, and to make it easier to do.
These people would post anything that could be used against the doctors, including photos, children's names, and what school they attended - anything.
this is REALLY not a good thing.
Granted, I may be some what biased, because I have friends that were on the list, and I am really not cool with a website that is an assaination tool to be used upon people who are doing a legal medical service.
I find this to be a very unfortunate decision. The people who are running this site are doing so as a direct attempt to scare people away from offering legal reproductive services. Whether you are pro or anti choice, I should hope we can all agree that using gestapo tactics to scare physicians by posting their addresses, names of spouses and children, phone numbers, children's schools and so on is just plain wrong.
The people who wrote this site clearly intend that the doctors on the list be targeted for murder assault, and harassment. I personally feel that this invokes the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" clause - these people's very lives are in danger because of this web page.
Hopefully the supreme court will overturn this, and won't pat these domestic terrorists on the head, and approve the ability for people to create on-line hit lists.
Slashdot Mirror
It's a quote from Huxley - the man who coined the term "Agnostic"
what it means is this:
If you do not constantly examine your life, and find your flaws, if you do not strive to improve yourself constantly, then yours is a wasted life.
This is an american issue, because it is an american judicial judegement. I have no position in which to judge this stuff in other cultures anyhow.
I do know that no matter where it is, I think going beyond the law to kill someone who is doing a legal task is not a good thing.
It still doesn't give you the right to impose your religious beliefs upon others.
Fuck... do I have to spell it out for you?
vote for people who will place conservative judges on the bench.
hell, you probably already did with our braindead president.
that IS working within the system.
and you didn't address the question of whether killing & harassment is working more within the system then using judges.
somehow I think that you probably do think that it is justified to kill doctors who do things you don't like, but you won't embarass yourself by stating that here.
So all of a sudden everyone who even supports abortions are murderers? Hmm - I've never killed anyone....and I help to keep abortion legal by working with NARAL (National Abortion Rights Action League). I would think that makes your logic flawed - but then again, I think it's clear that it is.
As far as the tantrum - you may not like it, but that is exactly how the far right is acting. (Oh, since we can't ahve our way being as mos of the public doesn't buy our bullshit, we'll just start killing people, and make impassioned speaches about tissue that we think should have a name)
And no - I don't have to know you to be able to make that republic judgement. You said you advocated killing abortion doctors, so you support people going outside of the system, instead of using it. clearly you are not respecting the establishment of our government (oh that's right - now that it's not run by clinton, who I can only assume you thought was pimping for the jews or some other assenine idea, maybe you feel like you are working with the republic)
I stand by my judgement of you on that.
Finally - your last fool point. I don't need "liberal activists" to tell me that the NRA, the christian coalition, the Neo Nazis, the KKK, the Anti Choice movement and the waco fucks out at ruby ridge or the montana freemen are all basically branches of the far right. Sure, each has a different objective:
NRA: keep guns
Anti-Choicers: Woman should have no right to choose if a man carries is seed to term or not
Christian Coalition: Get all these non christians out of this country
Neo Nazis: Get all these Jews out of the country
KKK: Get all of these blacks out of the country
hrm - I see alot of similarity there.
face it, the far right is based on the idea of hatign that which is different. Hell the CONCEPT of conservative (keep things the same) really pushes in that direction.
if you want a country where you can opress women, kill jews and blacks, and carry as many guns as you want - fine, but go found it somewhere else.
Oh - that's a good one. You think that to get people who are targeting your family, friends, children for harassement, and possible murder to be LESS damaging then to sue the person who started it.
that's fscking hilerious
Our society has a right to know who they are, so that we can make a decision whether or not to do business or associate with them.
Oh, so suddenly knowing children's names, and the residence of these people is necessary to not doing business? unless you are a door to door salesman I don't buy it. Even if you are, you would be the one intruding. Face it - you are trying to come up with bullshit excuses so that people can continue to use this site as an accomplice to murder. EVERYONE knows the real reason this site exists, and it is NOT business relations.
In order to legalize abortion, the left didn't do this. They got an activist court to legislate from the bench. How can you demand that we go about doing this in this way, when you side didn't?
Umm - excuse me, but last I looked, the court system was a part of our government. What using the courts to give us our rights back is worse then using harassment and murder to take them away again?
Hrmmm
I kinda like that idea.
that by far has to be one of the worst arguments against me yet.
this has ABSOLUTLY nothing to do with anything you mentioned.
what this has to do with is a group is supplying a known group of terrorists with personal information with the ACTUAL intent that these people get killed.
one word: CONTEXT
Umm - no.
I mispoke perhaps - because I (as the person talking to me) was referring to psyche. look at context before you spout off and call other people idiots.
1. Only if you are a christian is sex before marriage such a horrible thing. Even such - should you punish that person for the next 18 years because they made one mistake? Having a child before you ar ready can really destroy your life.
2. I neve said anything about forcing. this point is foolish and moot. If a person wants a child then that is their choice, if they do not want a child, it is their choice. They get to choose if they do the responsible thing (abort) or not.
great, thanks for the personal attack.
A liar is a person who intentionally decieves.
A lie is an intentional decite.
I believe that the page is inciting murder
I am not a liar.
I think it's clear that the site was about pushing people to use any terrorist tactics that they have at their disposal to try and stop these people.
I certainly consider taking pictures of the doctor, his children, and his wife and then mailing them to the doctor to be harassment.
I consider phone calls every night at three in the morning for an hour harassment.
I consider driving past a person's house constantly with binoculars to be at least suspisious.
the fact is, this is not about you and your church not doing business with this person, because clearly you won't. It is about people like Neal Horsley and perhaps yourself (I don't know) using any means necessary to harass and murder these people out of what they do.
If you want abortion to be illegal, join our system, and convince more then 50% that it is wrong. Don't do it by killing people, harassing them, and going outside the law.
Sure, and I suppose that we should deputise them all too, so they can legally hunt abortion doctors.
and I totall disagree with you - the only reason the pro-lifers are willing to go so far as to kill someone they disagree with is BECAUSE they are fundamentalist christians.
where else would they learn to be so judgemental of other people as to believe that they have the right to richously desend upon these doctors as if they were the avenging angel micheal himself.
do your homework - ALL of the people who have murdered abortion doctors are fundies, ALL of them.
Thanks :)
I'm glad to see at least someone around here agrees with me.
I don't even know how to repy to this...
are you even involved in the same conversation that we are?
what? now fetuses are a racial group that needs protection?
the difference here I think is that we ALL were fetuses at some point. We were not all jews at some point.
But hey, you can continue to live in your mideval dark ages, condemning everthing that does not fit in your religion's tiny world view. In the mean time, I will live in this society which values people's choice of religion. (and don't think for a moment that banning abortion is not a religion issue)
First off, I stand by my "Yelling Fire" statement, because the reason that is not protected speech is because it represents a clear threat to the lives of the people in the theater. I think the connection to this is clear, and does not need to be spelled out (but I will if anyone does not get it).
as far as your comments on racism & tobacco - This web site is not JUST about proclaiming that abortions are harmful or should be banned - it is also about providing terrorists with a hit list of doctors to murder, and is inciting people to do just that. Your example leaves one wanting when it comes to a comparison.
And yes, I DO think that (barring perhaps a regression or two to the ways of the past when a particularly conservative group gains control for a short period of time) we have evolved past the need to legislate christianity into our laws by making things like abortion illegal (which is a purely religious move).
I really believe that our society will not any time soon descend back into racisim, church control of state, women holding an inferior status, or banned abortion. Happly I think we as a society have for the most part worked past all of those.
Ahh - but a web site that was intended for the purpose of people finding doctors that give abortions would not be listing their home addresses, nor would it have lots of personal information about them, such as children's names, schools, spouses, spouses places of work and so on.
the information on this list is intended for only two purposes, harassing and murdering abortions providers. period, end of story.
The examples you brind forward would not contain they type of personal information that could be gleened from the Nuremburg files.
All true, but mix that with the fact that they are tracking the murders of these people, and the site is CLEARLY about how horrible these people are, it becomes somewhat questionable.
This site is practically begging for people to murder these doctors.
Like it or not, Abortion is legal, and for many people who don't want to have their lives trashed by having a child when they cannot reasonably care for one it is most deffinitly a service.
It is not by definition self-destructive. In many cases, abortions can lead towards a person having a far happier, and far more productive life.
No, of course picketing of corperations shouldn't be stopped. Heck - people who want to picket at abortion clinics should not be stopped (though i do support bubble laws).
The difference lies in three places:
1. Many of these people were actually unlisted.
2. People generally don't picket at the houses of the corperate officers - they picket at the offices. There is no need for these people to be circulating private addresses.
3. People generally don't go killing CEOs because they are upset about corperate policy. People DO kill doctors who provide abortion services.
the third one is really the important one. When an environemental group compiles a list of corperate offices to picket do they cross off the names of people related to those companies that have been murdered? No. Do the Nuremburg people do this? Yes.
Don't forget that three doctors have been shot shortly after being added to that list. I know correlation does not prove causation -> but there is deffinitly enough correlation to make one wonder....
But they ARE doing something. They are inciting murder - three doctors were murdered after beign placed on this list.
these people are accomplice to that, and they know it - but they are hiding behind freedom of speech so that they can use the list to help other doctors get shot.
not a troll my ass.
Murder is illegal, Abortions ARE legal. Get over it.
If you don't like the law, try and change it. Resorting to murder and terrorist acts to get your way is no better then a child throwing a tantrum, which is exactly what the religous right sanctioned war against abortion providers is: a temper tantrum because you all didn't get your way.
Grow up and participate in the republic.
oh and by the way, where the hell do you get the idea that abortion doctors are "paid Nazi exterminators"? as far as I can tell, the neo-nazi movement has WAY more ties to the super conservative right....
This was more then just threatening to kill someone. The web site posted any information they could get about abortion doctors, in an attempt to make it easier to track and kill said doctors. This is not just a "I hate you and you should die page", this is a direct attempt to incite the already active domestic terrorists to kill more doctors, and to make it easier to do.
These people would post anything that could be used against the doctors, including photos, children's names, and what school they attended - anything.
this is REALLY not a good thing.
Granted, I may be some what biased, because I have friends that were on the list, and I am really not cool with a website that is an assaination tool to be used upon people who are doing a legal medical service.
I find this to be a very unfortunate decision. The people who are running this site are doing so as a direct attempt to scare people away from offering legal reproductive services. Whether you are pro or anti choice, I should hope we can all agree that using gestapo tactics to scare physicians by posting their addresses, names of spouses and children, phone numbers, children's schools and so on is just plain wrong.
The people who wrote this site clearly intend that the doctors on the list be targeted for murder assault, and harassment. I personally feel that this invokes the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" clause - these people's very lives are in danger because of this web page.
Hopefully the supreme court will overturn this, and won't pat these domestic terrorists on the head, and approve the ability for people to create on-line hit lists.