Pretty good analysis regarding the insurability of nuclear plants. Now, only one question remains - why are they allowed to operate under these conditions?
Oh my, we got the god-emperor of court jesters here. It is not indicating, because it is TOO COLD. Sure. As if monitoring temperatures at room temperature range would not be implemented in a system that can go to cold shutdown. Well, that *could* go to cold shutdown, if the design wasn't fucked up beyond repair. Keep it up mate, nearly pissed myself laughing here.
Very informative, thanks. How do you come to the conclusion that this points out that the pessimistic predictions might be hype, though? Saji points at exactly the same issues that came to my mind when watching the data - e.g missing isotopes in the measurement, the probability of completely missed contamination due to insufficient measurement, unclear flow paths of the contaminated water. And that is the main problem - we are watching a high-tech nation completely unable to cope with this incident. All the issues regarding insufficient data could be resolved, if the right resources would be mobilized. TEPCO and the japanese government don't, however. They are dragging their feet, showing even less efficiency than the soviets after Chernobyl. And that is saying a lot.
Yep, those plants basically were nothing but exportable over-capacity. However, I haven't heard anything about shortages anywhere in Europe since we shut them down, so basically everyone was able to increase their output to cope.
In the end, it is pretty simple. As soon as any insurance company is willing to fully insure a nuclear plant, I am all for nuclear power. However, no insurance company will touch that. And if I trust anyone with risk assessment, it is insurances, they make a living off it after all.
In that case it is obvious that our institutions are not set up in a way that allow us to handle nuclear power safely, is it that what you are trying to say here?
Ehm, your tin can is not exploding because you purged all the oxygen out of by running a H2 stream through it for some time. In the reactor buildings, they just got enough hydrogen buildup to form an explosive mixture. Not like the whole air got purged before something decided to spark.
May I suggest you put filters in your coal power plants, as every civilized nation does? Oh, civilized, forgot about that , you are talking about that 3rd-world shithole USA....
Sure, no one knows if any radioactive material has escaped the containment. All the iodine, cesium, technetium, plutonium, neutron-capture activated chlorine... heck they just rained from the sky in a freak coincidence. No, nothing to see here. The containment is fine. You guys are getting beyond pathetic by now.
Maybe you run your coal plants to third-world standards in the US, wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Around here, we filter out flyash, which, by the way, doesn'T contain more radioactivity than normal soil, but heck, you got your talking point out, so what. The flyash is subsequently used as filler for concrete and blacktop. When it test to elevated heavy metal levels, which can happen with some coal, it is used as filler in mining, way beyond the water table. Yep. Crapload of nasty stuff there.
Well, you amply demonstrated that you are a pathetic little fuck like the rest of the nuclear apologists around here? Arguments, wait, arguments, where did I store them? Oh, I just ran out! What now... Hey, let's tell the other side "to grow up". Well done. By the book.
Well, of course it lead to a larger permanent no-habitation zone - they actually evacuated people. Japan obviously doesn't give a flying fuck that the radiation levels in IItate are twice the level at which the soviets decided to install a permanent exclusion zone. But hey, that would be bad publicity, it's only some citizens, so fuck them. "The economy" is obviously more important. And nuclear power is safe. Fuck you apologists, up the ass, with a dildo wrapped in barbed wire. For eternity.
You don't understand what I am aiming at - I completely understand how hard it is for the individual person out there. And I am completely willing to cut the employees working out at the plant some slack, heck a LOT of slack. However, the management of TEPCO and the government has completely different resources at their hands. In this position you could literally snip your fingers and have the stuff you need choppered in. NOW. Is this happening? No. They are dragging their feet. And the normal people pay for it. That's what I am pissed about.
Yeah, sure. The tsunami. Poor corporate whores, the tsunami hit them so bad. It's been three weeks. If I need a dosimeter today, I know who I would call - my old lab. And I am not even in the nuclear business.... And I would appreciate if you pro-nuke fuckwad shills would stop instrumentalizing the earthquake victims for your propaganda. It is disgusting.
Well, it is a kinda unstable state we are having here. I doubt that they will ever get a closed circle going - the pipes are blown to hell and back. That's "stopped" in a very limited sense of the word. When they finally realized what was going on in Chernobyl, the soviets went all out - gathered all resources they had from all over the country, fuck the five-year-plan. TEPCO doesn't even manage to get dosimeters from other plants.... They are still measuring the perimeter with mobile instruments, because the "power is down" on the fixed the measurement stations. Three weeks after the incident? Only 500 people on site under atrocious conditions? Sorry, this is indeed worse than the soviet response.
For added irony, Putzmeister is a german business, located in just that state that saw a landslide victory of the Green Party over the issue of atomic power last weekend...
If there is molten corium around - hydrogen is the least of your worries. Yes, in contact with water you would get thermolysis, radiolysis is rather inconsequential in comparison. However, in direct contact with water you would get juicy steam explosions first. Nothing to see here...
If you consider "stopped" to mean "spraying water from outside the building on whatever is inside, we don't know, but hey, we are doing something", yeah, then the accident was stopped. The TEPCO guys are acting worse than the soviets here. And it says a lot when you fail to meet soviet standards of efficiency, doesn't it?
No one knows shit - and that is the problem. Fear comes from uncertainty. TEPCO and the Japanese government are doing the worst by not releasing any reliable data. This constant "measured this" - oops "mismeasurement, but it is still probably bad" is destroying morale. A crisis is handled by telling the facts, calmly.
HA! The IAEA has a reputation for fearmongering now? Jesus Christ, What do you actually need to acknowledge that the shit has hit the fan? God descending from heaven and telling you personally? Or rather Pluto ascending from Hades, I guess...
So, please, explain where the measured 38Cl comes from? There is no reasonable decay path to that, you get it via neutron capture from 37Cl in the seawater used for cooling. And you need a significant neutron flux to explain the amounts that have been measured. This strongly points to at least temporary criticality in there...
It's fascinating in a way. The cooled down corium slabs in Chernobyl actually led to the discovery of several new minerals that don't exist in nature. And yeah, dissolving the stuff is out of the question from a chemical standpoint. There is no universal solvent, unfortunately, and to get some weird-ass radioctive heavy metal mixture to dissolve requires some weird-ass chemistry, which you definitely do not want at the site at the moment.
If you describe "finally wanting some reliable information from a bunch of bumbling fools that handle this crisis ineffectively compared to the blood SOVIETS" as "panicking" - well, you have the cocks of your corporate overlords so deep in your throat that you should be careful regarding your breathing. Wouldn't wanna choke on your own propaganda there, yes?
No one knows for sure. A senior GE safety engineer suspected as much. No one has entered the drywells, but they have radiation readings in the 20-60 Sv/h range from there - basically instadeath levels... Either the drywell is full of vented crap, or the pressure vessel is indeed breached. I tend to believe the latter by now.
For the non-germans, it might be worth stating that Liberals around here are more of a rah-rah- free-market-rah-rah-cash-toÂ-our-corporate-overlords-now-party, more small-l libertarians. Just before the usual liberal bashing starts-...:P
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Pretty good analysis regarding the insurability of nuclear plants. Now, only one question remains - why are they allowed to operate under these conditions?
Oh my, we got the god-emperor of court jesters here. It is not indicating, because it is TOO COLD. Sure. As if monitoring temperatures at room temperature range would not be implemented in a system that can go to cold shutdown. Well, that *could* go to cold shutdown, if the design wasn't fucked up beyond repair. Keep it up mate, nearly pissed myself laughing here.
Very informative, thanks. How do you come to the conclusion that this points out that the pessimistic predictions might be hype, though? Saji points at exactly the same issues that came to my mind when watching the data - e.g missing isotopes in the measurement, the probability of completely missed contamination due to insufficient measurement, unclear flow paths of the contaminated water. And that is the main problem - we are watching a high-tech nation completely unable to cope with this incident. All the issues regarding insufficient data could be resolved, if the right resources would be mobilized. TEPCO and the japanese government don't, however. They are dragging their feet, showing even less efficiency than the soviets after Chernobyl. And that is saying a lot.
Yep, those plants basically were nothing but exportable over-capacity. However, I haven't heard anything about shortages anywhere in Europe since we shut them down, so basically everyone was able to increase their output to cope.
In the end, it is pretty simple. As soon as any insurance company is willing to fully insure a nuclear plant, I am all for nuclear power. However, no insurance company will touch that. And if I trust anyone with risk assessment, it is insurances, they make a living off it after all.
In that case it is obvious that our institutions are not set up in a way that allow us to handle nuclear power safely, is it that what you are trying to say here?
Ehm, your tin can is not exploding because you purged all the oxygen out of by running a H2 stream through it for some time. In the reactor buildings, they just got enough hydrogen buildup to form an explosive mixture. Not like the whole air got purged before something decided to spark.
May I suggest you put filters in your coal power plants, as every civilized nation does? Oh, civilized, forgot about that , you are talking about that 3rd-world shithole USA....
Sure, no one knows if any radioactive material has escaped the containment. All the iodine, cesium, technetium, plutonium, neutron-capture activated chlorine... heck they just rained from the sky in a freak coincidence. No, nothing to see here. The containment is fine. You guys are getting beyond pathetic by now.
Maybe you run your coal plants to third-world standards in the US, wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Around here, we filter out flyash, which, by the way, doesn'T contain more radioactivity than normal soil, but heck, you got your talking point out, so what. The flyash is subsequently used as filler for concrete and blacktop. When it test to elevated heavy metal levels, which can happen with some coal, it is used as filler in mining, way beyond the water table. Yep. Crapload of nasty stuff there.
Well, you amply demonstrated that you are a pathetic little fuck like the rest of the nuclear apologists around here? Arguments, wait, arguments, where did I store them? Oh, I just ran out! What now... Hey, let's tell the other side "to grow up". Well done. By the book.
Well, of course it lead to a larger permanent no-habitation zone - they actually evacuated people. Japan obviously doesn't give a flying fuck that the radiation levels in IItate are twice the level at which the soviets decided to install a permanent exclusion zone. But hey, that would be bad publicity, it's only some citizens, so fuck them. "The economy" is obviously more important. And nuclear power is safe. Fuck you apologists, up the ass, with a dildo wrapped in barbed wire. For eternity.
You don't understand what I am aiming at - I completely understand how hard it is for the individual person out there. And I am completely willing to cut the employees working out at the plant some slack, heck a LOT of slack. However, the management of TEPCO and the government has completely different resources at their hands. In this position you could literally snip your fingers and have the stuff you need choppered in. NOW. Is this happening? No. They are dragging their feet. And the normal people pay for it. That's what I am pissed about.
Yeah, sure. The tsunami. Poor corporate whores, the tsunami hit them so bad. It's been three weeks. If I need a dosimeter today, I know who I would call - my old lab. And I am not even in the nuclear business.... And I would appreciate if you pro-nuke fuckwad shills would stop instrumentalizing the earthquake victims for your propaganda. It is disgusting.
Well, it is a kinda unstable state we are having here. I doubt that they will ever get a closed circle going - the pipes are blown to hell and back. That's "stopped" in a very limited sense of the word. When they finally realized what was going on in Chernobyl, the soviets went all out - gathered all resources they had from all over the country, fuck the five-year-plan. TEPCO doesn't even manage to get dosimeters from other plants.... They are still measuring the perimeter with mobile instruments, because the "power is down" on the fixed the measurement stations. Three weeks after the incident? Only 500 people on site under atrocious conditions? Sorry, this is indeed worse than the soviet response.
For added irony, Putzmeister is a german business, located in just that state that saw a landslide victory of the Green Party over the issue of atomic power last weekend...
If there is molten corium around - hydrogen is the least of your worries. Yes, in contact with water you would get thermolysis, radiolysis is rather inconsequential in comparison. However, in direct contact with water you would get juicy steam explosions first. Nothing to see here...
If you consider "stopped" to mean "spraying water from outside the building on whatever is inside, we don't know, but hey, we are doing something", yeah, then the accident was stopped. The TEPCO guys are acting worse than the soviets here. And it says a lot when you fail to meet soviet standards of efficiency, doesn't it?
No one knows shit - and that is the problem. Fear comes from uncertainty. TEPCO and the Japanese government are doing the worst by not releasing any reliable data. This constant "measured this" - oops "mismeasurement, but it is still probably bad" is destroying morale. A crisis is handled by telling the facts, calmly.
HA! The IAEA has a reputation for fearmongering now? Jesus Christ, What do you actually need to acknowledge that the shit has hit the fan? God descending from heaven and telling you personally? Or rather Pluto ascending from Hades, I guess...
So, please, explain where the measured 38Cl comes from? There is no reasonable decay path to that, you get it via neutron capture from 37Cl in the seawater used for cooling. And you need a significant neutron flux to explain the amounts that have been measured. This strongly points to at least temporary criticality in there...
It's fascinating in a way. The cooled down corium slabs in Chernobyl actually led to the discovery of several new minerals that don't exist in nature. And yeah, dissolving the stuff is out of the question from a chemical standpoint. There is no universal solvent, unfortunately, and to get some weird-ass radioctive heavy metal mixture to dissolve requires some weird-ass chemistry, which you definitely do not want at the site at the moment.
If you describe "finally wanting some reliable information from a bunch of bumbling fools that handle this crisis ineffectively compared to the blood SOVIETS" as "panicking" - well, you have the cocks of your corporate overlords so deep in your throat that you should be careful regarding your breathing. Wouldn't wanna choke on your own propaganda there, yes?
No one knows for sure. A senior GE safety engineer suspected as much. No one has entered the drywells, but they have radiation readings in the 20-60 Sv/h range from there - basically instadeath levels... Either the drywell is full of vented crap, or the pressure vessel is indeed breached. I tend to believe the latter by now.
For the non-germans, it might be worth stating that Liberals around here are more of a rah-rah- free-market-rah-rah-cash-toÂ-our-corporate-overlords-now-party, more small-l libertarians. Just before the usual liberal bashing starts-... :P