Now just hang on a second there, buddy. By the way, I'm an A-l-a-n too.
I did not make any accusations of criminal activity. For that to be true, we would (hypothetically speaking, of course) have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. (or Ms.) Mid-level Mgmt. knew for a fact the thing would fail. Of course, it is obvious that the defensive argument for this is "we could not know until we tried". Reasonable doubt == Not guilty (so they tell me, anyway).
Quite simply, what I am suggesting, like you alluded to, is other factors may cloud or otherwise interfere with the judgment of NASA management at times. My suggested solution to the problem is to throw more money at them
Everyone thinks of space exploration when they think NASA. It is their primary mission, but along the way, they make a lot of other cool stuff. We all enjoy it, whether we know it or not. New battery technologies. Felt-tip pens (ok, maybe they could have used pencils like the Russians). Velcro. Tang (*laughs* I admit this is a stretch). Ask your local rocket scientist type, this list goes on and on.
All these M$ advocates come out here chastizing the slashdot population for being pro-linux/anti-microsoft.==NEWS FLASH== Slashdot was born out of the Linux community. If you want to hear a bunch of pro-M$ happy talk, go read/post over there...M$ must open an uncensored public comment forum somewhere, right?
Maybe it isn't that simple. What if he licensed a couple of thousand copies to a single entity? They would sure get pissed if he turned around and made it free. IANAL, but I think there is some FTC regs about this kind of activity - having to offer the same deal to anyone. If this is the case, he could have found himself in the position of having to make massive refunds.
I find it hard to believe that you completely missed one of the core elements of JPL's Culture. Maybe they put you off in a trailer somewhere, where you were unable to interact with a sufficient cross-section of the people there to grok this.
The Lab (what we here in Pasadena call JPL) faces consistent budget-cuts and downsizing. There are less than half the bodies there today than there were about 10 years ago. This creates a competitive atmosphere for gaining access to The Lab's most prized resource - money. What I have observed over there are different cadres of engineers. Occasionally, the leader of any given cadre must make a pitch to the Generals and other purse-holders at The Lab to get funded for a new project and keep their team working.
If I may speculate a bit...A possible explanation for this "advance knowledge" of the failure could be that the project leader knew of the failure, knew it could not be fixed reasonably within the budget, and buried it in order to buy him or herself some time to get funded/start on that next project. Mind you, this is simply speculation. It certainly would not be the first time a NASA Administrator signed off (knowingly or not) on something that was broken.
Believe it or not, I couldn't get Mandrake installed on my notebook. I heard it was targetted for the newbie, so I figured an old salt like me ought to have no problem. OK, I was using the lnx4win thingy (g'hed flame me for using Windows too), got a panic about a disk device. Anyway, it became easier to repartition the drive and install RedHat.
I believe that in any circumstance where there is an impassible barrier to entry, true freedom cannot exist. Instead, it becomes freedom for the few, the elite, and IMO the result is oppression. I do not believe we intentionally oppress the clueless masses. IMO, the intent matters far less than the result.
Even though just about everything I have installed on Linux has just worked (including my pcmcia/compact flash for my camera, much to my surprise) I believe installing linux is an impassible barrier for the masses. I also believe it is OK for distros like Mandrake to attempt to address this. I don't think Cornell intends to tell anybody in the Linux community to get to coding on the next installer/simplifier applet. Instead, what I see is that he suggests we might be a bit more tolerant of those who engage in this activity, and of the clueless that want to use Linux.
As far as newbie helping is concerned, for me, I will point them to the docs, and possibly relay some anecdotal experience. Believe it or not, I had been doing sooo much Win admin that during my first attempt to install linux, it took me 4 days to figure out that there was a/doc directory on my RedHat CD. That initial challenge had nothing to do with me being clueless. It was much more of a deprogramming issue, and thank Linux for waking me up to that. I've seen similar things happen to others, too. WDBD - Windows Degenerative Brain Disease.
I have encountered Linux issues that are not documented. For example, I am yet to find any docs that have enabled me to succeed installing LinuxPPC on my iMac. Am I posting questions asking for help? Hell no! I want to figure it out on my own. Given the opportunity, will I help someone who asks? Yep. because it enhances my skill set.
I want to redress my "filled to the brim" statement in my earlier post, it is an exaggeration, and I apologize for being so judgmental.
I thought the GPL was supposed to afford computer users greater freedom.
I am curious as to why any of us think geeks should have an exclusive license on freedom. That's what I see in the "Linux is not for the masses" argument. That we are the elite, and we deserve freedom, while the rest of the world does not. I find this sentiment to be extremely hypocritical.
Maybe Linux will go mainstream, maybe not. Seems like Transmeta may have more than a little bit to do with the eventual outcome. Perhaps you can tell where I hedge my bets on this issue. Nevertheless, even if some of us decry the widespread deployment of Linux, the GPL allows anybody that wishes to climb that mountain to do exactly that. And there is nothing any of us can do to stop them.
The thing that I find most puzzling about the Linux Community is that even with its fouding principle being freedom, it is filled to the brim with fascists. Go help a newbie and stop pissing and moaning about things beyond your control.
Dude, you might want to have a look at this chart, from the latest Netcraft Web Server Survey. Apaches' installed base looks like a quarter pipe (rahdical!), and M$ looks like the total bunny slope.
Quicky certifications are a symptom of the deeper "problem". The real issue is that there just ain't enough skilled folk to go around. I'm not sure it's a "problem", well, at least if you're a skilled folk, it's not a problem. It just means higher pay. Enjoy it while it lasts. The high school I do a bit of work for has been firing up the old C/C++ courses once again. In 5-10 years, academia will overproduce techies again, and we'll see programmer jobs for $35K/year again.
I was astonished by the low price of this unit. Seems to me, with no margins, it isn't likely that an enormous amount of $$$ went into the development of the product. Besides, it's a closed security system, (aka security via obscurity). How is anyone to know just how secure it is? What about patches? And if it has a flash chip for the firmware, what then?
These low end products, in addition to giving an unsuspecting home user a warm fuzzy, are also designed for the consultant or installer that wants to be able to say "I tried to protect your network" to their client, without taking the learning curve on firewalls. My experience is while I have offered the WebRamp or Linksys products as a lower cost alternative to a "real" firewall, my clients have taken the attitude that they would rather not fsck around when it comes to their firewall.
Get the cheap 486 at home, put a good ipchains script on it, disable everything that listens, and keep it well patched. On most of your DENY's, put a -l (I don't log, but I do DENY packets rx'd for port 137/138 - it's mostly my neighboring broadband customers that have IP bound to their M$ client/server) and have a look at your logs every so often. You may be surprised by the results.
I don't share your view of M$ products, and believe me, I've used them. Nonetheless, I do not wish to be disagreeable, even though it is OK for us to disagree.
I would like to add some thoughts along some of the lines in your comment. The concept of a "easy-to-use" computer makes absolutely no sense to me. Even a Mac is a sophisticated piece of equipment, and I have seen users dumbfounded by the user interface. Ever seen the horrified look a newbie gives you as you tell them to put their floppy or zip in the trash to eject it? I like Macs, but I think it is incredible that the Apple and its masters of the Jedi Mind Trick (tm) have convinced the masses that there is such a thing as an easy to use computer.
Second, want to expand on "why not be OK with your own os/computer/chick/car/house/lifestyle of choice instead of tearing down somebody else for their choice?". In my experience, 99% of the time, it is a person with low self-esteem that goes on the offensive as a result of someone else's choices. I do not say this to attack my fellow geeks. Far from it. I believe low self-esteem is a common component of many geeks' personalities. Maybe a result of getting beat up by the jocks one too many times, I dunno.
Anyway, I say it to suggest a possible explanation of why we see this kind of behavior within our community. To speak a bit about the solution: Be OK with being you, and the fact that the rest of the world runs (and possibly even likes) Windows will be OK too.
Before flaming, I suggest a re-read of paragraph #3.
I have to agree that most schools would not have known what to do with them at that time. I hope they buried a message in a bottle with them too: Discarded for economic advantage, just to keep future archaeologists from banging their heads against the wall.
Time for me to get honest too.:) That teacher I mentioned was kind of a suburban version of "Escalante" (ala Stand and Deliver). I was the smart, young rebel, and I was quickly earning my way into continuation school. He found a way to challenge me and captivate my interests. I must admit, it was an unusual circumstance, especially for public school.
Funny...I remember drooling over a Lisa at the local Inacomp computer store. I was about 15 at the time. At my local high school, I was learning c on a multiuser Z-80 based system and machine language via the front panel on a restored Altair 8800. The teacher funded the computers out of his own pocket. Guess I'm from the Paleolithic Era of computing. =) and proud that they used to teach what happens after power-up back then.
If I step outside of my emotional response to Bob's article, I can see he has a point too.
We like to speak of principles in the free software community. Principles like freedom == power, and proprietary == tyranny. For me, a principle is something that applies in all situations, no matter what.
I believe this is what Bob is speaking to. I certainly do not mean to disrespect Mr. Torvalds, far from it. Linux has brought me numerous gifts, both in kind and in heart. But it does seem that Linus is "sleeping with the enemy", so to speak.
Now, some may say it is just Linus' business, and I disagree with that idea. He is one of our leaders, and accountability is another principle we speak of in this community. I would like to hear what he has to say...I think it is an interesting topic, if he is willing to share. I imagine that at some points he has faced conflicts between his beliefs in free software principles and the need to make a living and do something not only groundbreaking, but really cool.
Another point, and get your moderator points out to mod me down, cuz that's what happens when people post the unpopular truth out here... Mr. Metcalfe has received a totally reprehensible and immature treatment out here on/. today. It is OK to disagree with him, and don't sell me short, I disagree with a lot of what he has to say. If you be one of the Bob-slammers, take note: learn to disagree without being disagreeable. Pay the man a little respect. Only a fool would say we would be using the 'net today without his contribution. Saying he's wrong is one thing, even saying why he is wrong is cool too, but personal attacks...well, that just reflects poorly on all of us.
Problem is after you mail from from "MY" email address, NSI then sends email with tracking number to "MY" email address. I then need to send a reply with a Y on the correct line (0a IIRC), and the "tracking number" needs to be in the subject line. How exactly will you get that "tracking number", aside from maybe hacking my email server and reading my email?
Here's a more interesting question, bear with me a bit on this one. Who is this WilliamX guy anyway? His name certainly doesn't ring a bell like certain other 'net figures. Didn't your mammies teach you not to believe everything you read?
An individual, with a handle of WilliamX posted the article we are discussing in this thread on dnspolicy.net, attempting to discredit NSI. Run a whois is on dnspolicy.net...Pay close attention to the registrant. Also, if you look carefully at his handle on the dnspolicy.net posting, his email is @wxsoft.com. Let me see...What business do you think wxsoft.com is in? Well, one of their services is domain registration. No hidden agenda there, well, not once you look a half inch below the surface.
I was having some trouble reaching a server I frequently access 'cross the country and it was slower than snot. I fired up NeoTrace on one of my Win boxes and noticed the ping times went through the roof as soon as I hit uu.net. This lasted for about a half hour, after I noticed the slowdown.
I think this geek hysteria going on out here is really ridiculous. I can't reach a site...it must be packet monkeys or the gov't trying to create a false need for a law. How about a backhoe or a dyslexic (imagine that) engineer typing in routing tables. I wonder if any of the chicken little types posting in this thread even bothered running a traceroute to any of the sites that were "unavailable" to them. The 'net is kinda like this freeway system in LA. Take out a couple of key exchange points, and all hell breaks loose.
The gov't here in the good ole u s of a doesn't need to synthesize phony attacks designed to gain approval to pass a law. And I can prove it: You are being sold genetically-altered produce by your local grocer, and more than likely, you don't even know it. Strawberries ain't supposed to be *that* big.
All that cybercop money Clinton is talking about is already being spent by [insert favorite spook organization name here], prior to approval because they know its a slam dunk.
You are joking, right? It took years to get some sites that were only 7-bit capable to change. I think it is safe to say IPv6 is years away from implemenation at your local internet retailer.
FWIW this CERT Security Improvement Module suggests proactive measure for intrusion detection, because lack of said measures can lead to possible legal liability and prosecution for failure to exercise an adequate standard of due care when your systems are inadvertently or intentionally used to attack others
My best suggestion though, if you want a real answer to this question, ask a lawyer, not a geek.
sez to "benefit those who would not otherwise be able to afford a computer". bah! a bone to the bougeuoise (sp?) masses to get them back to their roles as cogs in the great military-industrial complex we call the united states. seems school isn't enough preparation to get people to show up on schedule and perform mindless boring tasks for hours on end any more. kick 'em a tax "holiday".
i wonder what computer companies he and his buddies own. nope. probably own part of some telecom co. 8.3million in tax losses == 83,000 new internet subscribers * $50/month. there it is right there! more welfare for the rich, wrapped up as a benefit to the middle class. what a crock!
and yeah i am a part of the bougeuoise (sp? again) masses in this country. i just work for myself, or is it just the illusion of being self-employed? either way, don't start flaming up calling me no hypocrite. i ain't falling for the man's feeble attempt at the ole' jedi mind trick. =) not this time, anyway.
Slashdot Mirror
I did not make any accusations of criminal activity. For that to be true, we would (hypothetically speaking, of course) have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. (or Ms.) Mid-level Mgmt. knew for a fact the thing would fail. Of course, it is obvious that the defensive argument for this is "we could not know until we tried". Reasonable doubt == Not guilty (so they tell me, anyway).
Quite simply, what I am suggesting, like you alluded to, is other factors may cloud or otherwise interfere with the judgment of NASA management at times. My suggested solution to the problem is to throw more money at them
Everyone thinks of space exploration when they think NASA. It is their primary mission, but along the way, they make a lot of other cool stuff. We all enjoy it, whether we know it or not. New battery technologies. Felt-tip pens (ok, maybe they could have used pencils like the Russians). Velcro. Tang (*laughs* I admit this is a stretch). Ask your local rocket scientist type, this list goes on and on.
All these M$ advocates come out here chastizing the slashdot population for being pro-linux/anti-microsoft.==NEWS FLASH== Slashdot was born out of the Linux community. If you want to hear a bunch of pro-M$ happy talk, go read/post over there...M$ must open an uncensored public comment forum somewhere, right?
Actually, they're getting around to it
Maybe it isn't that simple. What if he licensed a couple of thousand copies to a single entity? They would sure get pissed if he turned around and made it free. IANAL, but I think there is some FTC regs about this kind of activity - having to offer the same deal to anyone. If this is the case, he could have found himself in the position of having to make massive refunds.
The Lab (what we here in Pasadena call JPL) faces consistent budget-cuts and downsizing. There are less than half the bodies there today than there were about 10 years ago. This creates a competitive atmosphere for gaining access to The Lab's most prized resource - money. What I have observed over there are different cadres of engineers. Occasionally, the leader of any given cadre must make a pitch to the Generals and other purse-holders at The Lab to get funded for a new project and keep their team working.
If I may speculate a bit...A possible explanation for this "advance knowledge" of the failure could be that the project leader knew of the failure, knew it could not be fixed reasonably within the budget, and buried it in order to buy him or herself some time to get funded/start on that next project. Mind you, this is simply speculation. It certainly would not be the first time a NASA Administrator signed off (knowingly or not) on something that was broken.
Believe it or not, I couldn't get Mandrake installed on my notebook. I heard it was targetted for the newbie, so I figured an old salt like me ought to have no problem. OK, I was using the lnx4win thingy (g'hed flame me for using Windows too), got a panic about a disk device. Anyway, it became easier to repartition the drive and install RedHat.
Even though just about everything I have installed on Linux has just worked (including my pcmcia/compact flash for my camera, much to my surprise) I believe installing linux is an impassible barrier for the masses. I also believe it is OK for distros like Mandrake to attempt to address this. I don't think Cornell intends to tell anybody in the Linux community to get to coding on the next installer/simplifier applet. Instead, what I see is that he suggests we might be a bit more tolerant of those who engage in this activity, and of the clueless that want to use Linux.
As far as newbie helping is concerned, for me, I will point them to the docs, and possibly relay some anecdotal experience. Believe it or not, I had been doing sooo much Win admin that during my first attempt to install linux, it took me 4 days to figure out that there was a /doc directory on my RedHat CD. That initial challenge had nothing to do with me being clueless. It was much more of a deprogramming issue, and thank Linux for waking me up to that. I've seen similar things happen to others, too. WDBD - Windows Degenerative Brain Disease.
I have encountered Linux issues that are not documented. For example, I am yet to find any docs that have enabled me to succeed installing LinuxPPC on my iMac. Am I posting questions asking for help? Hell no! I want to figure it out on my own. Given the opportunity, will I help someone who asks? Yep. because it enhances my skill set.
I want to redress my "filled to the brim" statement in my earlier post, it is an exaggeration, and I apologize for being so judgmental.
I am curious as to why any of us think geeks should have an exclusive license on freedom. That's what I see in the "Linux is not for the masses" argument. That we are the elite, and we deserve freedom, while the rest of the world does not. I find this sentiment to be extremely hypocritical.
Maybe Linux will go mainstream, maybe not. Seems like Transmeta may have more than a little bit to do with the eventual outcome. Perhaps you can tell where I hedge my bets on this issue. Nevertheless, even if some of us decry the widespread deployment of Linux, the GPL allows anybody that wishes to climb that mountain to do exactly that. And there is nothing any of us can do to stop them.
The thing that I find most puzzling about the Linux Community is that even with its fouding principle being freedom, it is filled to the brim with fascists. Go help a newbie and stop pissing and moaning about things beyond your control.
YHBT HAND
Dude, you might want to have a look at this chart, from the latest Netcraft Web Server Survey. Apaches' installed base looks like a quarter pipe (rahdical!), and M$ looks like the total bunny slope.
Quicky certifications are a symptom of the deeper "problem". The real issue is that there just ain't enough skilled folk to go around. I'm not sure it's a "problem", well, at least if you're a skilled folk, it's not a problem. It just means higher pay. Enjoy it while it lasts. The high school I do a bit of work for has been firing up the old C/C++ courses once again. In 5-10 years, academia will overproduce techies again, and we'll see programmer jobs for $35K/year again.
These low end products, in addition to giving an unsuspecting home user a warm fuzzy, are also designed for the consultant or installer that wants to be able to say "I tried to protect your network" to their client, without taking the learning curve on firewalls. My experience is while I have offered the WebRamp or Linksys products as a lower cost alternative to a "real" firewall, my clients have taken the attitude that they would rather not fsck around when it comes to their firewall.
Get the cheap 486 at home, put a good ipchains script on it, disable everything that listens, and keep it well patched. On most of your DENY's, put a -l (I don't log, but I do DENY packets rx'd for port 137/138 - it's mostly my neighboring broadband customers that have IP bound to their M$ client/server) and have a look at your logs every so often. You may be surprised by the results.
I would like to add some thoughts along some of the lines in your comment. The concept of a "easy-to-use" computer makes absolutely no sense to me. Even a Mac is a sophisticated piece of equipment, and I have seen users dumbfounded by the user interface. Ever seen the horrified look a newbie gives you as you tell them to put their floppy or zip in the trash to eject it? I like Macs, but I think it is incredible that the Apple and its masters of the Jedi Mind Trick (tm) have convinced the masses that there is such a thing as an easy to use computer.
Second, want to expand on "why not be OK with your own os/computer/chick/car/house/lifestyle of choice instead of tearing down somebody else for their choice?". In my experience, 99% of the time, it is a person with low self-esteem that goes on the offensive as a result of someone else's choices. I do not say this to attack my fellow geeks. Far from it. I believe low self-esteem is a common component of many geeks' personalities. Maybe a result of getting beat up by the jocks one too many times, I dunno.
Anyway, I say it to suggest a possible explanation of why we see this kind of behavior within our community. To speak a bit about the solution: Be OK with being you, and the fact that the rest of the world runs (and possibly even likes) Windows will be OK too.
Before flaming, I suggest a re-read of paragraph #3.
The Tricorder.
Time for me to get honest too. :) That teacher I mentioned was kind of a suburban version of "Escalante" (ala Stand and Deliver). I was the smart, young rebel, and I was quickly earning my way into continuation school. He found a way to challenge me and captivate my interests. I must admit, it was an unusual circumstance, especially for public school.
Funny...I remember drooling over a Lisa at the local Inacomp computer store. I was about 15 at the time. At my local high school, I was learning c on a multiuser Z-80 based system and machine language via the front panel on a restored Altair 8800. The teacher funded the computers out of his own pocket. Guess I'm from the Paleolithic Era of computing. =) and proud that they used to teach what happens after power-up back then.
something is wrong in a society where a corporation gets a better tax write-off for throwing things away then giving them to schools
I know. Words speak louder than actions.
We like to speak of principles in the free software community. Principles like freedom == power, and proprietary == tyranny. For me, a principle is something that applies in all situations, no matter what.
I believe this is what Bob is speaking to. I certainly do not mean to disrespect Mr. Torvalds, far from it. Linux has brought me numerous gifts, both in kind and in heart. But it does seem that Linus is "sleeping with the enemy", so to speak.
Now, some may say it is just Linus' business, and I disagree with that idea. He is one of our leaders, and accountability is another principle we speak of in this community. I would like to hear what he has to say...I think it is an interesting topic, if he is willing to share. I imagine that at some points he has faced conflicts between his beliefs in free software principles and the need to make a living and do something not only groundbreaking, but really cool.
Another point, and get your moderator points out to mod me down, cuz that's what happens when people post the unpopular truth out here... Mr. Metcalfe has received a totally reprehensible and immature treatment out here on /. today. It is OK to disagree with him, and don't sell me short, I disagree with a lot of what he has to say. If you be one of the Bob-slammers, take note: learn to disagree without being disagreeable. Pay the man a little respect. Only a fool would say we would be using the 'net today without his contribution. Saying he's wrong is one thing, even saying why he is wrong is cool too, but personal attacks...well, that just reflects poorly on all of us.
Thank you
Here's a more interesting question, bear with me a bit on this one. Who is this WilliamX guy anyway? His name certainly doesn't ring a bell like certain other 'net figures. Didn't your mammies teach you not to believe everything you read?
An individual, with a handle of WilliamX posted the article we are discussing in this thread on dnspolicy.net, attempting to discredit NSI. Run a whois is on dnspolicy.net...Pay close attention to the registrant. Also, if you look carefully at his handle on the dnspolicy.net posting, his email is @wxsoft.com. Let me see...What business do you think wxsoft.com is in? Well, one of their services is domain registration. No hidden agenda there, well, not once you look a half inch below the surface.
I think this geek hysteria going on out here is really ridiculous. I can't reach a site...it must be packet monkeys or the gov't trying to create a false need for a law. How about a backhoe or a dyslexic (imagine that) engineer typing in routing tables. I wonder if any of the chicken little types posting in this thread even bothered running a traceroute to any of the sites that were "unavailable" to them. The 'net is kinda like this freeway system in LA. Take out a couple of key exchange points, and all hell breaks loose.
The gov't here in the good ole u s of a doesn't need to synthesize phony attacks designed to gain approval to pass a law. And I can prove it: You are being sold genetically-altered produce by your local grocer, and more than likely, you don't even know it. Strawberries ain't supposed to be *that* big.
All that cybercop money Clinton is talking about is already being spent by [insert favorite spook organization name here], prior to approval because they know its a slam dunk.
You are joking, right? It took years to get some sites that were only 7-bit capable to change. I think it is safe to say IPv6 is years away from implemenation at your local internet retailer.
My best suggestion though, if you want a real answer to this question, ask a lawyer, not a geek.
i wonder what computer companies he and his buddies own. nope. probably own part of some telecom co. 8.3million in tax losses == 83,000 new internet subscribers * $50/month. there it is right there! more welfare for the rich, wrapped up as a benefit to the middle class. what a crock!
if a politician really wants to help computer users, how's about working on the abolition of software patents.
and yeah i am a part of the bougeuoise (sp? again) masses in this country. i just work for myself, or is it just the illusion of being self-employed? either way, don't start flaming up calling me no hypocrite. i ain't falling for the man's feeble attempt at the ole' jedi mind trick. =) not this time, anyway.