I don't see how Starbucks "loses" anything. The guy didn't win. Plus some lawsuits can have positive outcomes.
Like the lady who sued McDonalds after coffee spilled on her legs and gave her second-degree burns. It was discovered that McDonalds was in violation of state law because they had the coffee set above 150 degrees. i.e. Dangerous. Awarding the lady $30,000 in damages would have taught McDonalds nothing. So the court also applied a million dollar fine on top of it. .
>>>Companies can be fined by the government for violations of safety regulations without needing to hand over 20 bazillion dollars to some poor data-entry drone
Perhaps but then you'd have *politicians* trolling for dollars instead.
I like my sentence better. "And the real winner of this court decision is the Powers that be (i.e. megacorps)." Yet another way to suck money from the consumer and kill the used market so he/she can never recoup the cash.
>>>This ruling has the potential to strip the right of first sale from all future books, magazines, CDs, DVDs, etc.
Goodbye sales of used goods on Ebay. Looks like I better sell-off all my CDs, DVDs, and PS2/Gamecube games now while I still can, else I'll be stuck with them forever.
BUT that poisoning by match powder was the result of *scientific illiteracy* not deliberate malice. At the time everyone thought breathing phosphorus (or coal or whatever) was just as safe as breathing dust while plowing the fields. We didn't know any better. We were ignorant.
Then when we discovered the damage, we enacted laws to require breathing protection. China is different. They can not claim ignorance for the workers' abuses they commit.
>>>Their big problem is not what is happening to the people today..... The problem is that they are mortgaging the future by doing horrible, horrible things to their environment
Did you really just say Trees and other shit are More important than individuals??? That's dangerous thinking. It's the kind of thinking that led that Green-democrat to attack Discover Channel's building. The Chinese lawmakers are not going to give a shit about poisoning the air, because they don't recognize the right of the Individual to even exist, much less breathe.
You need to recognize the individual FIRST before you realize the individual has a right to clean air.
>>>bringing them down (or raising them up, depending on perspective) to our level simply because we can't keep up?
Would you endorse trading with a nation that kills its own people, or cuts off women's noses? Like Iraq? No you would not.
Well things are not that extreme in China, but still pretty bad. The workers are treated no better than how we treated Blacks south of Maryland in the 1800s. I don't think it's too much to ask China to enforce the same or similar Rights that US and EU workers have, rather than continue along the path of crushing Chinese workers like ants in the industrial machine.
From what I understand, the US is the "worst" in every possible measure. Various surveys say we are worst in healthcare. Worst in internet. Worst in transportation. Worst in taxation. Worst in lifespan. Worst in education. Worst in size of our waists. Wort quality in cars. Worst in consumer protection. And on and on and on.
I'm starting to wonder if these surveys are just political propaganda (i.e. "biased bullshit" to quote Penn&Teller) that aren't worth the paper they are printed on. For example when *I* surveyed the internet, I found the US is actually not the worst/slowest but in the #2 position worldwide, ahead of the EU, Canada, Australia, Brazil, and so on.
I think it's time we start looking at these surveys *critically* rather than just swallowing the headline and assuming it's the truth.
>>>the $30k for medical bills and more for pain and suffering, they get some some like $10 million that is completely out of line relative to their injury.
You don't understand the concept of punitive damages do you? If you only fined a company 30,000 then it would just continue abusing workers with dangerous conditions. (As was the case with 1970s Ford when they decided it was cheaper to pay victims of blowing-up Pinto cars, rather than fix the flaw.) So courts award 30,000 actual damage PLUS the 10,000,000 punishment to make the company "hurt" and want to improve itself.
>>>I read that line as a worry of a massive unexpected cost.
That's because you probably don't know about Foxconn's labor violations. Even China has rules saying workers must get a break every 2 hours, and they are not allowed to work more than 50 hours per week, but Foxconn routinely ignores those rules by making workers skip the 2-hour downtime and working 70-80 hours. In the US lawyers would step-up and represent the workers in a lawsuit, but over in China the lawyers are so few that Foxconn does not have to fear.
So basically his comment can be seen as, "I prefer to stay in China because there are no lawyers here to enforce the workers' rights and laws, as there are over in the US or EU."
>>>We are forced to in-part of PP fees keep minimum price rather high to cover those fees.
I include the Paypal fees (which are about 1 dollar per DVD or Game sold) into my S & Handling fee. Paypal claims I'm not allowed to do that, but I don't give a fuck. If something goes wrong and nobody bids on my DVD, and it sells for a measly 1 penny, I want to make sure I don't suffer a loss. (i.e. End up paying a one dollar fee for a one-penny sale.)
Why? Because it's the credit card company's fault for making an insecure system. They should be held liable, and maybe that would encourage them to develop more secure systems that can't be swiped so easily. Example: A few years ago I had the digits stolen off my Discover card, probably by the man at the hotel where I stayed. Either he or someone else racked-up $3500 using a fake card at Walmart. Obviously it's not my fault, but neither is it Walmart's fault.
I guess you think Walmart should be the one to suffer the 3500 dollar loss, but I completely disagree.
The best part about credit cards is the 3% (or sometimes even 5%) rebate they give me on food, gasoline, hotels. Oh and books. My amazon card gives me 3% off books.
That adds-up to around $500 rebate each year. Sometimes more if my employer sends me on lots of business travel.
Yeah that sounds like a horrible existence. How do I get to be a King? I'd happily take that "pain" for the advantages of vast taxpayer-supplied wealth, and the power to dissolve the damn Parliament whenever I felt like it (or else keep them, but nullify their laws via random Decrees from the Throne).
Being a UK monarch sounds like the best job in the world. Oh and I stay with my previous belief that the UK Republic of the mid-1600s was better than living under a Single person dictatorship (which is really what a kingdom represents), or an oligarchy (the class system where nobles are better than commoners).
Oh and read American history more carefully. The Americans did place most of the blame on the 1760s-70s Parliament, but they also considered the King partially complicit because he (1) gave his assent to these unjust laws rather than block them, and (2) he was directly responsible for the dissolution of the State Legislatures via personal decree.
Or: You could have simply ASKED about it instead of presuming I'm a liar that made-up a fake story.
The Reason my brother said he felt like a Jew in Germany, was because the NH Homeland Security took all the stuff out of the back of his van and dumped it on the ground as part of their "search". (And since he looks like a hippy, no doubt they suspected he was a druggie and they thought they'd "score" some marijuana or other illegal drug.) Now being a high school dropout he might not be a knowledgeable of history as you and I, but he is correct in his vague recollection of history. During the 1930s the Nazis DID ramshackle through Jewish automobiles and homes, and dump their property on the ground.
They took away Jewish freedom step-by-stop, not all at once. First with "papers please" and warrantless searches, as is happening in the US and EU right now. And just because you've been lucky to not encounter Homeland Security does not mean you should dismiss others' stories as "lies". The ACLU has a rather cool map on their website, which shows if you are within 100 miles of the Canadian or Mexican border, you can be stopped and searched at any time. They call it the "constitution free zone" which is a bit sensationalist but mostly accurate.
I challenge you to drive along the I-8 along Mexico sometime. You WILL be stopped at some point, and searched, and then your claim that police never harassed you will be nullified. Experience it yourself, rather than dismiss other people as liars.
Similarly: One cannot "steal" from a slave. Copying is not theft, because the author is my personal slave, and he must do whatever I tell him to do. "Now get to work and write another Star Wars novel!" (crack) goes the whip.
No I'm not stretching. Theft of another human being's labor, or the product of that labor (cotton, books), without compensating them is the very definition of slavery.
Last I checked borrowing books from the library is not theft. Why? Because even though the borrower paid nothing, the author was still paid for the book. He's received his wages. ----- On the other hand, taking the book off the net is copyright theft, as you are enjoying Stephen King's (or whoever's) latest work, and Mr. King can't pay his bills because you never paid him.
And for every Cory Doctorow, there's about a million other authors (Stephen King, Tom Clancy, J. Michael Staczyski, and on and on) who disagree that they should have to give-away their work without compensation.
In fact Mr. King did experiment with that idea, providing a book free of charge on the net, with a request of $20 payment. He discovered it didn't work, and went back to traditional publishing methods. As Is His Right, per the supreme law of the land. (Authors shall receive an exclusive right to ownership of their books for a limited time. AKA copyright.) If you disagree with that law, then petition to have the Constitution amended and that law struck from it. However I bet you'll face a lot of opposition from the Creators who, no surprise, think they should be able to earn money for their time & labor.
>>>If you absolutely need money to want to make something (besides production costs), then it's not art
I notice you still accept a paycheck for the "art" you create every single week (random guess: technology hardware or software). Why is it that you think you should be paid for your labors, but not book writers? Hmmmm. Maybe we ought to stop paying you too. I'll just steal whatever you produce w/o paying you.
>>>>>PayPal is not a bank. >> >>sounds like a bank to me.
What words mean in plain english and what they mean in legal circles are not always the same thing. I remember when Amazon advertised themselves as, "The world's largest bookstore." They got sued by Barnes&Noble, Borders, and a few others who claimed amazon is not a store. The court heard the case and agreed that amazon is not a store, and forced amazon to drop the slogan. It wouldn't surprise me if some judge somewhere has already decided Paypal is not a bank, at least not legally.
As for problems:
Every Ebay seller had stories but for most of us the problems were not with paypal, but with dishonest Ebay sellers (mailing me broken crap) and buyers (saying item not received when I have confirmation it was delviered).
If the credit card was stolen, then the loss should come out of the credit company's pocket, not Paypal or the Ebay seller. PLUS paypal is supposed to provide seller protection if the item was shipped to a verified address.
If it were me I'd track down the buyer and demand back whatever product he stole. You have the address.
ALSO: Those comments that say Paypal is not regulated are flat wrong. There are numerous regulations/laws that cover Paypal, and it was their violations of those laws that got them into trouble with multiple American States several years ago. The judge in the case nullified huge sections of Paypal's EULA as being contrary to these laws. ("Consumers cannot sign-away their rights already protected by state and/or federal law.") .
>>>the interbanking system in the US is still far behind what Europe has to offer
Why? Is there some US Government regulation(s) that impede the ability of US banks to setup direct bank-to-bank transfers? Paypal's not perfect but I do like being able to use it to pay with credit card, and thereby gain the fraud protection that credit provides. Also Paypal has a convenient method for us Ebay sellers to quickly run-off postage and ship the sold package.
I would do the same but I sell on games/dvds on ebay and PayPal is the only practical option. I always make sure to withdraw the money within a week of when the customers deposit it. Then if there's a dispute the money comes from Paypal's pocket not mine.
As for Paypal, I guess they never learn. They were sued by several American States earlier this decade, which resulted in Paypal having to give money back to its used (I got ~$70, the second class of victims got ~$250, and the third class of victims were handled on a case-by-case basis). Now it sounds they are repeating the same mistakes. They are not allowed to just arbitrarily suspend accounts and keep the money.
>>>(and Microsoft controls that ballot, not the EC)
That's not correct. The EU judge's court order specifies which browsers will be listed, from most popular to the 12th most popular, and then randomized each time it's displayed. The order also specifies the list will be updated by the court every year.
I wish I could believe you but I've heard the same about the USPS and BBC (not part of government), and yet USPS has a dot-gov website and the BBC uses government police to collect their ~$250 per year tax. To say these organizations are not part of government sounds like political fiction.
Wikipedia describes NBN as "government-owned corporation" so basically it's like US Amtrak - which is part of the government.
Slashdot Mirror
I don't see how Starbucks "loses" anything. The guy didn't win. Plus some lawsuits can have positive outcomes.
Like the lady who sued McDonalds after coffee spilled on her legs and gave her second-degree burns. It was discovered that McDonalds was in violation of state law because they had the coffee set above 150 degrees. i.e. Dangerous. Awarding the lady $30,000 in damages would have taught McDonalds nothing. So the court also applied a million dollar fine on top of it.
.
>>>Companies can be fined by the government for violations of safety regulations without needing to hand over 20 bazillion dollars to some poor data-entry drone
Perhaps but then you'd have *politicians* trolling for dollars instead.
Oh.
I like my sentence better. "And the real winner of this court decision is the Powers that be (i.e. megacorps)." Yet another way to suck money from the consumer and kill the used market so he/she can never recoup the cash.
Ahhh an Angel fan!
But you mean TPTB win.
(the powers that be) win.
>>>This ruling has the potential to strip the right of first sale from all future books, magazines, CDs, DVDs, etc.
Goodbye sales of used goods on Ebay. Looks like I better sell-off all my CDs, DVDs, and PS2/Gamecube games now while I still can, else I'll be stuck with them forever.
BUT that poisoning by match powder was the result of *scientific illiteracy* not deliberate malice. At the time everyone thought breathing phosphorus (or coal or whatever) was just as safe as breathing dust while plowing the fields. We didn't know any better. We were ignorant.
Then when we discovered the damage, we enacted laws to require breathing protection. China is different. They can not claim ignorance for the workers' abuses they commit.
>>>Their big problem is not what is happening to the people today..... The problem is that they are mortgaging the future by doing horrible, horrible things to their environment
Did you really just say Trees and other shit are More important than individuals??? That's dangerous thinking. It's the kind of thinking that led that Green-democrat to attack Discover Channel's building. The Chinese lawmakers are not going to give a shit about poisoning the air, because they don't recognize the right of the Individual to even exist, much less breathe.
You need to recognize the individual FIRST before you realize the individual has a right to clean air.
>>>bringing them down (or raising them up, depending on perspective) to our level simply because we can't keep up?
Would you endorse trading with a nation that kills its own people, or cuts off women's noses? Like Iraq? No you would not.
Well things are not that extreme in China, but still pretty bad. The workers are treated no better than how we treated Blacks south of Maryland in the 1800s. I don't think it's too much to ask China to enforce the same or similar Rights that US and EU workers have, rather than continue along the path of crushing Chinese workers like ants in the industrial machine.
From what I understand, the US is the "worst" in every possible measure. Various surveys say we are worst in healthcare. Worst in internet. Worst in transportation. Worst in taxation. Worst in lifespan. Worst in education. Worst in size of our waists. Wort quality in cars. Worst in consumer protection. And on and on and on.
I'm starting to wonder if these surveys are just political propaganda (i.e. "biased bullshit" to quote Penn&Teller) that aren't worth the paper they are printed on. For example when *I* surveyed the internet, I found the US is actually not the worst/slowest but in the #2 position worldwide, ahead of the EU, Canada, Australia, Brazil, and so on.
I think it's time we start looking at these surveys *critically* rather than just swallowing the headline and assuming it's the truth.
>>>the $30k for medical bills and more for pain and suffering, they get some some like $10 million that is completely out of line relative to their injury.
You don't understand the concept of punitive damages do you? If you only fined a company 30,000 then it would just continue abusing workers with dangerous conditions. (As was the case with 1970s Ford when they decided it was cheaper to pay victims of blowing-up Pinto cars, rather than fix the flaw.) So courts award 30,000 actual damage PLUS the 10,000,000 punishment to make the company "hurt" and want to improve itself.
>>>I read that line as a worry of a massive unexpected cost.
That's because you probably don't know about Foxconn's labor violations. Even China has rules saying workers must get a break every 2 hours, and they are not allowed to work more than 50 hours per week, but Foxconn routinely ignores those rules by making workers skip the 2-hour downtime and working 70-80 hours. In the US lawyers would step-up and represent the workers in a lawsuit, but over in China the lawyers are so few that Foxconn does not have to fear.
So basically his comment can be seen as, "I prefer to stay in China because there are no lawyers here to enforce the workers' rights and laws, as there are over in the US or EU."
>>>We are forced to in-part of PP fees keep minimum price rather high to cover those fees.
I include the Paypal fees (which are about 1 dollar per DVD or Game sold) into my S & Handling fee. Paypal claims I'm not allowed to do that, but I don't give a fuck. If something goes wrong and nobody bids on my DVD, and it sells for a measly 1 penny, I want to make sure I don't suffer a loss. (i.e. End up paying a one dollar fee for a one-penny sale.)
.
Why? Because it's the credit card company's fault for making an insecure system. They should be held liable, and maybe that would encourage them to develop more secure systems that can't be swiped so easily. Example: A few years ago I had the digits stolen off my Discover card, probably by the man at the hotel where I stayed. Either he or someone else racked-up $3500 using a fake card at Walmart. Obviously it's not my fault, but neither is it Walmart's fault.
I guess you think Walmart should be the one to suffer the 3500 dollar loss, but I completely disagree.
The best part about credit cards is the 3% (or sometimes even 5%) rebate they give me on food, gasoline, hotels. Oh and books. My amazon card gives me 3% off books.
That adds-up to around $500 rebate each year. Sometimes more if my employer sends me on lots of business travel.
Yeah that sounds like a horrible existence. How do I get to be a King? I'd happily take that "pain" for the advantages of vast taxpayer-supplied wealth, and the power to dissolve the damn Parliament whenever I felt like it (or else keep them, but nullify their laws via random Decrees from the Throne).
Being a UK monarch sounds like the best job in the world. Oh and I stay with my previous belief that the UK Republic of the mid-1600s was better than living under a Single person dictatorship (which is really what a kingdom represents), or an oligarchy (the class system where nobles are better than commoners).
Oh and read American history more carefully. The Americans did place most of the blame on the 1760s-70s Parliament, but they also considered the King partially complicit because he (1) gave his assent to these unjust laws rather than block them, and (2) he was directly responsible for the dissolution of the State Legislatures via personal decree.
Or: You could have simply ASKED about it instead of presuming I'm a liar that made-up a fake story.
The Reason my brother said he felt like a Jew in Germany, was because the NH Homeland Security took all the stuff out of the back of his van and dumped it on the ground as part of their "search". (And since he looks like a hippy, no doubt they suspected he was a druggie and they thought they'd "score" some marijuana or other illegal drug.) Now being a high school dropout he might not be a knowledgeable of history as you and I, but he is correct in his vague recollection of history. During the 1930s the Nazis DID ramshackle through Jewish automobiles and homes, and dump their property on the ground.
They took away Jewish freedom step-by-stop, not all at once. First with "papers please" and warrantless searches, as is happening in the US and EU right now. And just because you've been lucky to not encounter Homeland Security does not mean you should dismiss others' stories as "lies". The ACLU has a rather cool map on their website, which shows if you are within 100 miles of the Canadian or Mexican border, you can be stopped and searched at any time. They call it the "constitution free zone" which is a bit sensationalist but mostly accurate.
I challenge you to drive along the I-8 along Mexico sometime. You WILL be stopped at some point, and searched, and then your claim that police never harassed you will be nullified. Experience it yourself, rather than dismiss other people as liars.
Similarly: One cannot "steal" from a slave. Copying is not theft, because the author is my personal slave, and he must do whatever I tell him to do. "Now get to work and write another Star Wars novel!" (crack) goes the whip.
No I'm not stretching. Theft of another human being's labor, or the product of that labor (cotton, books), without compensating them is the very definition of slavery.
I don't see any hypocrisy in the GP's post.
Last I checked borrowing books from the library is not theft. Why? Because even though the borrower paid nothing, the author was still paid for the book. He's received his wages. ----- On the other hand, taking the book off the net is copyright theft, as you are enjoying Stephen King's (or whoever's) latest work, and Mr. King can't pay his bills because you never paid him.
And for every Cory Doctorow, there's about a million other authors (Stephen King, Tom Clancy, J. Michael Staczyski, and on and on) who disagree that they should have to give-away their work without compensation.
In fact Mr. King did experiment with that idea, providing a book free of charge on the net, with a request of $20 payment. He discovered it didn't work, and went back to traditional publishing methods. As Is His Right, per the supreme law of the land. (Authors shall receive an exclusive right to ownership of their books for a limited time. AKA copyright.) If you disagree with that law, then petition to have the Constitution amended and that law struck from it. However I bet you'll face a lot of opposition from the Creators who, no surprise, think they should be able to earn money for their time & labor.
Same as we do.
>>>If you absolutely need money to want to make something (besides production costs), then it's not art
I notice you still accept a paycheck for the "art" you create every single week (random guess: technology hardware or software). Why is it that you think you should be paid for your labors, but not book writers? Hmmmm. Maybe we ought to stop paying you too. I'll just steal whatever you produce w/o paying you.
>>>>>PayPal is not a bank.
>>
>>sounds like a bank to me.
What words mean in plain english and what they mean in legal circles are not always the same thing. I remember when Amazon advertised themselves as, "The world's largest bookstore." They got sued by Barnes&Noble, Borders, and a few others who claimed amazon is not a store. The court heard the case and agreed that amazon is not a store, and forced amazon to drop the slogan. It wouldn't surprise me if some judge somewhere has already decided Paypal is not a bank, at least not legally.
As for problems:
Every Ebay seller had stories but for most of us the problems were not with paypal, but with dishonest Ebay sellers (mailing me broken crap) and buyers (saying item not received when I have confirmation it was delviered).
If the credit card was stolen, then the loss should come out of the credit company's pocket, not Paypal or the Ebay seller. PLUS paypal is supposed to provide seller protection if the item was shipped to a verified address.
If it were me I'd track down the buyer and demand back whatever product he stole. You have the address.
ALSO: Those comments that say Paypal is not regulated are flat wrong. There are numerous regulations/laws that cover Paypal, and it was their violations of those laws that got them into trouble with multiple American States several years ago. The judge in the case nullified huge sections of Paypal's EULA as being contrary to these laws. ("Consumers cannot sign-away their rights already protected by state and/or federal law.")
.
>>>the interbanking system in the US is still far behind what Europe has to offer
Why? Is there some US Government regulation(s) that impede the ability of US banks to setup direct bank-to-bank transfers? Paypal's not perfect but I do like being able to use it to pay with credit card, and thereby gain the fraud protection that credit provides. Also Paypal has a convenient method for us Ebay sellers to quickly run-off postage and ship the sold package.
>>>I use it as a Credit Card broker only.
I would do the same but I sell on games/dvds on ebay and PayPal is the only practical option. I always make sure to withdraw the money within a week of when the customers deposit it. Then if there's a dispute the money comes from Paypal's pocket not mine.
As for Paypal, I guess they never learn. They were sued by several American States earlier this decade, which resulted in Paypal having to give money back to its used (I got ~$70, the second class of victims got ~$250, and the third class of victims were handled on a case-by-case basis). Now it sounds they are repeating the same mistakes. They are not allowed to just arbitrarily suspend accounts and keep the money.
>>>(and Microsoft controls that ballot, not the EC)
That's not correct. The EU judge's court order specifies which browsers will be listed, from most popular to the 12th most popular, and then randomized each time it's displayed. The order also specifies the list will be updated by the court every year.
>>>NBN is not a government department.
I wish I could believe you but I've heard the same about the USPS and BBC (not part of government), and yet USPS has a dot-gov website and the BBC uses government police to collect their ~$250 per year tax. To say these organizations are not part of government sounds like political fiction.
Wikipedia describes NBN as "government-owned corporation" so basically it's like US Amtrak - which is part of the government.