So they have fake SSI cards. That makes sense. Still I have my doubts they file with the IRS every April 15th. If I were an illegal I'd write "15" on my exemptions form and thereby minimize the amount of tax withdrawn, and never bother to file the unpaid taxes on April 15th.
They are paying the 7% SSI tax, but not paying the full ~25% that we full citizens normally pay to the IRS.
>>>By "an almost exact" you mean "not", pretty much by definition.
I could not find the original video that I saw in Congress, but I did find this other video where he says essentially the same thing. "If we get a public option it will lead to single-payer [healthcare]." - Barney Frank. Link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3BS4C9el98 - He also thinks your idea of going direct to single-payer is "suicidal". He said in this video, "We don't have the votes for single payer."
Since you were living in Germany while still young, it seems like you were never sick during that time, so how do you know it's superior? In fact last I've heard, German citizens are demanding privatization, because they've grown tired of the poor quality found in government hospitals.
>>>She could have paid that cash to a private hospital and got her pap smear.
The UK has no private hospitals. Neither does Canada for that matter. It's why comedian Tom Green, when he developed cancer, was forced to fly to the U.S. and get it removed immediately (rather than wait 9 months in line). There was no private alternative inside Canada.
I don't see anything good about it, whether it's run by Comcast or Congress. At least with the Comcast TV monopoly I can tell them to "fuck off" and not hand them any money. With Congress that doesn't work. They just take a big vacuum cleaner to my wallet and start sucking-out the money. (Or as the case with this bill, fine ~$2500 per family for failure to buy insurance.) I see absolutely nothing good about a monopoly, not even a government one.
>>>so we should let that mere 8 million people suffer? Who cares
Strawman argument. I never said any such thing, and it pisses me off that you presume I am a cold-hearted son of a bitch that cares nothing for his neighbors. You gave a long soliloquy about the foolishness of the opposition, and then commit foolishness yourself by prejudicing your opponent's thoughts as an evil person who has "no caring" for others. You commit the very act you claim to be against!
I would have simply taken the existing Medicare program, and allowed those 8 million people to have coverage, if they could not pay the bill themselves. A simple adjustment, rather than a major change. It is silly to force 310 million Americans to change their coverage, just to suit that small 8 million. It is wiser to make minor adjustments.
>>>its hard to make a case stating "but it only helps 8 million people", 8 million is a VERY large value of "only".
>>>it's not something that I can just pull out of my ass.
Then use a credit card. And budget more carefully. How much do you spend on cable TV, cellphone, and internet? Around $160/month and $2000/year? That's what my brother spends, if you include the sales tax.
In contrast I only spend $20/month on those same services (cell + net; no cable tv). Perhaps if you downgraded your services to my level, then you too would just "shrug" when a root canal bill falls on your lap. I'm not any wealthier than you - I'm just careful not to waste. It's called "saving for a rainy day".
>>>The 8 million figure you quote is probably also not accurate.... The real number is probably somewhere in the middle
Well let's see. I don't have the study in front of me, but as I recall, of the top of my head - 10 million of those "uninsured Americans" are not citizens and therefore not entitled to any government assistance even under Obama's bill. Another 10 million elders and parents told the Census "I have no healthcare," even though they (or their children) are fully-covered by Medicare and SCHIP in the event of a hospital stay. Another 10 million are affluent or young Americans like me who *voluntarily* choose not to buy health insurance, because we consider ourselves healthy.
So 42-10-10-10 == about 12 million uncovered citizens by my rough calculation. That seems consistent with the "8 million" cited by the Penn State study.
>>>The problem is that medicare is becoming far to expensive so something has to be done to change it
Yeah. Extend medicare to everybody. That will sure solve the problem and reduce costs. (rolls eyes). A better choice would have been to convert Medicare to a needs-based system (like welfare). That way everybody is covered by the government's guarantee of assistance, but if you have the money (like I do) then you just pay the bill yourself.
Medicare would be a universal safety net for anyone who needed it, but it you don't need it, then you don't use the net.
>>>what happens when you get cancer and have to pony up $500k for cancer treatments?
Probably the same thing that happens when my heart stops beating. I spend the rest of eternity in a coffin.
I guess the difference between you and me is that I don't fear death, and if I was given that bad news about cancer, rather than *waste* 500,000 trying to give myself an extra year of life, I'd give the money to my grandchildren so they can go to college. Better to spend the money wisely than foolishly.
Also it's kinda ridiculous to consider outlandish ideas. You might as well ask, "What if you get hit on the head with an asteroid?" The average cost of a hospital stay is only $19,000. Not at all unreasonable, especially compared to how much money I've wasted on cars over the years (about 20 cars each costing $30,000 each). Some people like my grandparents didn't spend a dime on hospitals because they died in their sleep - that's how most of us are probably going to go.
>>>Illegal aliens: You are racist. They are not criminals.
Just as someone who is found in my living has committed an illegal breaking-and-entering (i.e. a criminal), so too have illegal non-citizens. They are intruders, committed a criminal act, and should be removed.
And it's not racist. I'd say exactly the same thing if the illegal was some white guy from Britain. We have a process for legal entrance; follow it or get out.
I was just thinking the same thing about your post. Illegals hold a lot of jobs you say. But then you forget that our unemployment rate is above 10%. So wouldn't it be logical to remove the illegals, and hand those jobs to actual citizens? It would reduce unemployment below 5%.
As for my point, I have no objections to immigrants. My best friend came from China and is married to a lovely Japanese girl. I'm happy they are here, but they followed the proper procedure of filling-out a Visa. Anyone who does not follow that procedure should (IMHO) be jailed and deported, the same way you arrest an intruder you find in your living room. The intruder does not belong.
>>>At least people aren't spouting crap like "America is full", yet.
Just wait. When the oil skyrockets to $500 a barrel circa 2020 or 2030, and Americans start starving because there's no way to move the food from the farms to the cities, then everyone will come to realize that the United States (and Europe) is overpopulated.
We have too many humans living inside this nation. It's not sustainable without oil, and the oil drought is coming. Like China we should be looking for ways to have fewer citizens, not more.
Yes. He said he was against Prop 187 which required checking IDs to screen-out illegals. I don't understand why he'd be against that. Did YOU bother to read his post?
"How can it be optional if they are going to fine you when you say no???" She comes from the World War 2 generation, when freedom actually meant something. I don't think today's Generation Hippy, Generation X, or Generation Me have any idea of the concept. Many of them think if they want something, it's okay to ask the government to raid their neighbors' wallets and get it.
It's a lot like how the Roman Empire's government operated.
>>>>>Are you honestly saying that a US insurance provider would have provided her insurance?
No but in the US, you can simply walk in, hand-over some cash, and get the PAP smear done. You can't do that with the UK Government's monopoly. They won't accept cash payments, so when the college-aged woman was told "no", that was the end. She had no other choices. It's anti-liberty.
>>>>>A government monopoly is no better than one run by Microsoft, Comcast, or Exxon. It still takes-away choice. >> >>If you don't understand the difference, then there's no helping you.
I'm willing to listen if you're willing to explain. I can name at least one difference: When Microsoft or Comcast comes to me and demands money, I tell them to "fuck off". If I tried that with the government monopoly, I'd probably end-up in jail for failure to pay. (Or in the case of this just-passed bill, get fined ~$2500.)
Governments have a monopoly over your wallet and can vacuum it at will. That's something private corporations, even monopolies, do not have.
>>>I'm glad some people like Barney Frank are fighting to keep me healthy.
You have that right to get health from a doctor. You also have the right to drink, smoke, and overeat.
You do Not have the right to make your neighbors pay to replace your diseased lungs, liver, or fatty heart. You pay your own bills. You made the poor choices in life, and it's your responsibility to pay the costs incurred. You don't pass the bills off to your neighbors.
>>>"Oh, #4 tooth? We don't cover root canals on that tooth. Sorry." This is a direct quote.
I don't believe you. I don't think you're telling the whole story.
But even if we assume you're telling the truth, you could just pay cash. Mine cost a mere $900..... that's comparable to how much people spend on trivial shit like cable tv or cellphones. And $900 is basically nothing compared to the two cars/SUVs (total cost == ~$60,000) sitting in your driveway. If you can afford to waste thousands on that other stuff, then you can afford a root canal.
BTW I don't have dental insurance. I just pay cash for everything It's cheaper in the long term.
>>>Proper healthcare is vital to a strong workforce. A strong workforce results in stronger returns in taxes. Higher tax income pays for healthcare.
More people == more pollution and accelerated global warming.
Really? I guess men don't matter then. The number one cancer killer is lung cancer. The number two is prostate and third is testicular..... but never mind that. Let's focus on the breast cancer, killer number five as being more important than numbers two or three.
Grrr.
I'm starting to think the second class citizens USED to blacks. Then women. And now it's men.
We agree. If you've reached the age of 40, and have never had any kids, then from that day forward you should not have to pay the school tax. (Of course if you do later have kids, then you'd have to pay taxes.) I had a neighbor like that, and it always struck me as unfair that she had to pay ~$3000 a year for a government school she never used, since she had no kids.
Likewise if you send your kid to a private school (say Apple High School), then you should be exempt from taxation for that year. I don't think parents should have to pay double tuitions (both private and government). If they pay one then the other should be nullified.
>>>"The United States ranks 31st in life expectancy (tied with Kuwait and Chile) >>>
Correlation is not causation. The reason Americans die young is because they are so damn fat, and die of strokes or heart attacks. THAT is the cause. If Europeans were as fat as Americans they too would die early. Also consider these stats which *are* directly related to the health system:
UK HEALTHCARE WAITING TIMES (note the US wait time is typically 1/2 month) 8 months - cataract surgery 11 months- hip replacement 12 months- knee replacement 5 months - slipped disc 5 months - hernia repair SOURCE - The BBC, May 2009
PROSTATE 5-YEAR CANCER SURVIVOR RATE 100%- United States 90% - Canada 77% - United Kingdom
*this* is just one example of why people say the U.S. has the best healthcare in the world, because the cure rate is soooo much higher than in countries where care is monopolized by the government. MEP Daniel Hannan said in early August, "The worst thing to be is elderly under the UK Health System..... you will be denied care and left starving in wards."
No it isn't. From the moment humans are born, their destiny is to spend eternity in a coffin. Healthcare is merely a way to postpone this ultimate end, not an ultimate cure.
Furthermore, while you have a right to smoke, or drink, or overeat, you do Not have a right to make your neighbors pay to replace you diseased lung, liver, or fat-clogged heart. You chose your lifestyle; now YOU should pay the cost, not hand the bill to your neighbors.
>>>there are more healthy people that contribute more and longer in form of taxes and other common wealth.
From a strictly logical (and cold) perspective, world societies would be better off if human beings died early. If some catastrophic illness happened that reduced US and EU populations to only 100 million each, all of our worries about pollution and global warming would simply disappear. The Kyoto Treaty provisions would be achieved by default.
By making humans live longer, we are actually making the environment worse and accelerating global warming.
>>>A) Health care is a right, that is logically derived from the right to live. And the lack of the right to kill yourself.
You have the right of life and the right of healthcare. You have the right to drink and the right to smoke and the right to overeat.
You do NOT have the right to make your neighbors pay the bill to replace your diseased liver or lungs or fatty heart, anymore than you have the right to make them pay for your new Lexus or new TV. Pay your own damn bills.
It probably would have, but since Medicare got involved with auditing everything the hospitals do, it went the opposite direction. In other words, precisely what you'd expect with government bureaucrats.
As for illegal aliens, 10 million of the so-called "40 million Americans without insurance" are illegal residents. I'd say it's a significant issue, and if you don't believe me then I'm going to bring my stuff over and setup my bed in your spare room (since you apparently think illegal entrance is a-okay).
>>>It could have been so much better:
Yeah. The government could have charged a 100% tax, and then just let Congress run everything - medicare, healthcare, food stamps, retirement (SSI) savings, free housing, GM-provided free cars. Then nobody would have to live without anything. (poof). Ooops there's goes the People's Constitution in a flash of fire.
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So they have fake SSI cards. That makes sense. Still I have my doubts they file with the IRS every April 15th. If I were an illegal I'd write "15" on my exemptions form and thereby minimize the amount of tax withdrawn, and never bother to file the unpaid taxes on April 15th.
They are paying the 7% SSI tax, but not paying the full ~25% that we full citizens normally pay to the IRS.
>>>By "an almost exact" you mean "not", pretty much by definition.
I could not find the original video that I saw in Congress, but I did find this other video where he says essentially the same thing. "If we get a public option it will lead to single-payer [healthcare]." - Barney Frank. Link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3BS4C9el98 - He also thinks your idea of going direct to single-payer is "suicidal". He said in this video, "We don't have the votes for single payer."
>>>I have lived in the US for 22 years
Since you were living in Germany while still young, it seems like you were never sick during that time, so how do you know it's superior? In fact last I've heard, German citizens are demanding privatization, because they've grown tired of the poor quality found in government hospitals.
>>>She could have paid that cash to a private hospital and got her pap smear.
The UK has no private hospitals. Neither does Canada for that matter. It's why comedian Tom Green, when he developed cancer, was forced to fly to the U.S. and get it removed immediately (rather than wait 9 months in line). There was no private alternative inside Canada.
You think monopoly is a good thing?
Wow.
I don't see anything good about it, whether it's run by Comcast or Congress. At least with the Comcast TV monopoly I can tell them to "fuck off" and not hand them any money. With Congress that doesn't work. They just take a big vacuum cleaner to my wallet and start sucking-out the money. (Or as the case with this bill, fine ~$2500 per family for failure to buy insurance.) I see absolutely nothing good about a monopoly, not even a government one.
>>>so we should let that mere 8 million people suffer? Who cares
Strawman argument. I never said any such thing, and it pisses me off that you presume I am a cold-hearted son of a bitch that cares nothing for his neighbors. You gave a long soliloquy about the foolishness of the opposition, and then commit foolishness yourself by prejudicing your opponent's thoughts as an evil person who has "no caring" for others. You commit the very act you claim to be against!
I would have simply taken the existing Medicare program, and allowed those 8 million people to have coverage, if they could not pay the bill themselves. A simple adjustment, rather than a major change. It is silly to force 310 million Americans to change their coverage, just to suit that small 8 million. It is wiser to make minor adjustments.
>>>its hard to make a case stating "but it only helps 8 million people", 8 million is a VERY large value of "only".
No it isn't. It's only 3% of the U.S.
>>>it's not something that I can just pull out of my ass.
Then use a credit card. And budget more carefully. How much do you spend on cable TV, cellphone, and internet? Around $160/month and $2000/year? That's what my brother spends, if you include the sales tax.
In contrast I only spend $20/month on those same services (cell + net; no cable tv). Perhaps if you downgraded your services to my level, then you too would just "shrug" when a root canal bill falls on your lap. I'm not any wealthier than you - I'm just careful not to waste. It's called "saving for a rainy day".
>>>The 8 million figure you quote is probably also not accurate. ... The real number is probably somewhere in the middle
Well let's see. I don't have the study in front of me, but as I recall, of the top of my head - 10 million of those "uninsured Americans" are not citizens and therefore not entitled to any government assistance even under Obama's bill. Another 10 million elders and parents told the Census "I have no healthcare," even though they (or their children) are fully-covered by Medicare and SCHIP in the event of a hospital stay. Another 10 million are affluent or young Americans like me who *voluntarily* choose not to buy health insurance, because we consider ourselves healthy.
So 42-10-10-10 == about 12 million uncovered citizens by my rough calculation. That seems consistent with the "8 million" cited by the Penn State study.
>>>The problem is that medicare is becoming far to expensive so something has to be done to change it
Yeah. Extend medicare to everybody. That will sure solve the problem and reduce costs. (rolls eyes). A better choice would have been to convert Medicare to a needs-based system (like welfare). That way everybody is covered by the government's guarantee of assistance, but if you have the money (like I do) then you just pay the bill yourself.
Medicare would be a universal safety net for anyone who needed it, but it you don't need it, then you don't use the net.
>>>what happens when you get cancer and have to pony up $500k for cancer treatments?
Probably the same thing that happens when my heart stops beating. I spend the rest of eternity in a coffin.
I guess the difference between you and me is that I don't fear death, and if I was given that bad news about cancer, rather than *waste* 500,000 trying to give myself an extra year of life, I'd give the money to my grandchildren so they can go to college. Better to spend the money wisely than foolishly.
Also it's kinda ridiculous to consider outlandish ideas. You might as well ask, "What if you get hit on the head with an asteroid?" The average cost of a hospital stay is only $19,000. Not at all unreasonable, especially compared to how much money I've wasted on cars over the years (about 20 cars each costing $30,000 each). Some people like my grandparents didn't spend a dime on hospitals because they died in their sleep - that's how most of us are probably going to go.
>>>Illegal aliens: You are racist. They are not criminals.
Just as someone who is found in my living has committed an illegal breaking-and-entering (i.e. a criminal), so too have illegal non-citizens. They are intruders, committed a criminal act, and should be removed.
And it's not racist. I'd say exactly the same thing if the illegal was some white guy from Britain. We have a process for legal entrance; follow it or get out.
>>>And your point was?
I was just thinking the same thing about your post. Illegals hold a lot of jobs you say. But then you forget that our unemployment rate is above 10%. So wouldn't it be logical to remove the illegals, and hand those jobs to actual citizens? It would reduce unemployment below 5%.
As for my point, I have no objections to immigrants. My best friend came from China and is married to a lovely Japanese girl. I'm happy they are here, but they followed the proper procedure of filling-out a Visa. Anyone who does not follow that procedure should (IMHO) be jailed and deported, the same way you arrest an intruder you find in your living room. The intruder does not belong.
>>>At least people aren't spouting crap like "America is full", yet.
Just wait. When the oil skyrockets to $500 a barrel circa 2020 or 2030, and Americans start starving because there's no way to move the food from the farms to the cities, then everyone will come to realize that the United States (and Europe) is overpopulated.
We have too many humans living inside this nation. It's not sustainable without oil, and the oil drought is coming. Like China we should be looking for ways to have fewer citizens, not more.
But of course you won't believe me.
Yes. He said he was against Prop 187 which required checking IDs to screen-out illegals. I don't understand why he'd be against that. Did YOU bother to read his post?
You sound like my 80-something mother.
"How can it be optional if they are going to fine you when you say no???" She comes from the World War 2 generation, when freedom actually meant something. I don't think today's Generation Hippy, Generation X, or Generation Me have any idea of the concept. Many of them think if they want something, it's okay to ask the government to raid their neighbors' wallets and get it.
It's a lot like how the Roman Empire's government operated.
>>>>>Are you honestly saying that a US insurance provider would have provided her insurance?
No but in the US, you can simply walk in, hand-over some cash, and get the PAP smear done. You can't do that with the UK Government's monopoly. They won't accept cash payments, so when the college-aged woman was told "no", that was the end. She had no other choices. It's anti-liberty.
>>>>>A government monopoly is no better than one run by Microsoft, Comcast, or Exxon. It still takes-away choice.
>>
>>If you don't understand the difference, then there's no helping you.
I'm willing to listen if you're willing to explain. I can name at least one difference: When Microsoft or Comcast comes to me and demands money, I tell them to "fuck off". If I tried that with the government monopoly, I'd probably end-up in jail for failure to pay. (Or in the case of this just-passed bill, get fined ~$2500.)
Governments have a monopoly over your wallet and can vacuum it at will.
That's something private corporations, even monopolies, do not have.
>>>I'm glad some people like Barney Frank are fighting to keep me healthy.
You have that right to get health from a doctor.
You also have the right to drink, smoke, and overeat.
You do Not have the right to make your neighbors pay to replace your diseased lungs, liver, or fatty heart. You pay your own bills. You made the poor choices in life, and it's your responsibility to pay the costs incurred. You don't pass the bills off to your neighbors.
>>>"Oh, #4 tooth? We don't cover root canals on that tooth. Sorry." This is a direct quote.
I don't believe you. I don't think you're telling the whole story.
But even if we assume you're telling the truth, you could just pay cash. Mine cost a mere $900..... that's comparable to how much people spend on trivial shit like cable tv or cellphones. And $900 is basically nothing compared to the two cars/SUVs (total cost == ~$60,000) sitting in your driveway. If you can afford to waste thousands on that other stuff, then you can afford a root canal.
BTW I don't have dental insurance.
I just pay cash for everything
It's cheaper in the long term.
>>>Proper healthcare is vital to a strong workforce. A strong workforce results in stronger returns in taxes. Higher tax income pays for healthcare.
More people == more pollution and accelerated global warming.
>>>(little funding for women's health)
Really? I guess men don't matter then. The number one cancer killer is lung cancer. The number two is prostate and third is testicular..... but never mind that. Let's focus on the breast cancer, killer number five as being more important than numbers two or three.
Grrr.
I'm starting to think the second class citizens USED to blacks. Then women. And now it's men.
We agree. If you've reached the age of 40, and have never had any kids, then from that day forward you should not have to pay the school tax. (Of course if you do later have kids, then you'd have to pay taxes.) I had a neighbor like that, and it always struck me as unfair that she had to pay ~$3000 a year for a government school she never used, since she had no kids.
Likewise if you send your kid to a private school (say Apple High School), then you should be exempt from taxation for that year. I don't think parents should have to pay double tuitions (both private and government). If they pay one then the other should be nullified.
>>>"The United States ranks 31st in life expectancy (tied with Kuwait and Chile)
>>>
Correlation is not causation. The reason Americans die young is because they are so damn fat, and die of strokes or heart attacks. THAT is the cause. If Europeans were as fat as Americans they too would die early. Also consider these stats which *are* directly related to the health system:
UK HEALTHCARE WAITING TIMES (note the US wait time is typically 1/2 month)
8 months - cataract surgery
11 months- hip replacement
12 months- knee replacement
5 months - slipped disc
5 months - hernia repair
SOURCE - The BBC, May 2009
PROSTATE 5-YEAR CANCER SURVIVOR RATE
100%- United States
90% - Canada
77% - United Kingdom
*this* is just one example of why people say the U.S. has the best healthcare in the world, because the cure rate is soooo much higher than in countries where care is monopolized by the government. MEP Daniel Hannan said in early August, "The worst thing to be is elderly under the UK Health System..... you will be denied care and left starving in wards."
>>>health care is a necessity
No it isn't. From the moment humans are born, their destiny is to spend eternity in a coffin. Healthcare is merely a way to postpone this ultimate end, not an ultimate cure.
Furthermore, while you have a right to smoke, or drink, or overeat, you do Not have a right to make your neighbors pay to replace you diseased lung, liver, or fat-clogged heart. You chose your lifestyle; now YOU should pay the cost, not hand the bill to your neighbors.
>>>there are more healthy people that contribute more and longer in form of taxes and other common wealth.
From a strictly logical (and cold) perspective, world societies would be better off if human beings died early. If some catastrophic illness happened that reduced US and EU populations to only 100 million each, all of our worries about pollution and global warming would simply disappear. The Kyoto Treaty provisions would be achieved by default.
By making humans live longer, we are actually making the environment worse and accelerating global warming.
>>>A) Health care is a right, that is logically derived from the right to live. And the lack of the right to kill yourself.
You have the right of life and the right of healthcare.
You have the right to drink and the right to smoke and the right to overeat.
You do NOT have the right to make your neighbors pay the bill to replace your diseased liver or lungs or fatty heart, anymore than you have the right to make them pay for your new Lexus or new TV. Pay your own damn bills.
This is why I have no insurance. It's a scam to extract dollars from your wallet, without giving much in return.
Of course the Uncle Sam "option" insurance is also going to be a scam, so I won't be signing-up for that either.
>>>Streamlining the payment process:
It probably would have, but since Medicare got involved with auditing everything the hospitals do, it went the opposite direction. In other words, precisely what you'd expect with government bureaucrats.
As for illegal aliens, 10 million of the so-called "40 million Americans without insurance" are illegal residents. I'd say it's a significant issue, and if you don't believe me then I'm going to bring my stuff over and setup my bed in your spare room (since you apparently think illegal entrance is a-okay).
>>>It could have been so much better:
Yeah. The government could have charged a 100% tax, and then just let Congress run everything - medicare, healthcare, food stamps, retirement (SSI) savings, free housing, GM-provided free cars. Then nobody would have to live without anything. (poof). Ooops there's goes the People's Constitution in a flash of fire.