A lot of EE people do programming too, such as DSP signal analysis, since most newer computing grads aren't qualified
I don't think many CS grads ever did serious DSP work (disclaimer: I'm an EE who also writes DSP code). The techniques and algorithms are what you learn in EE, not CS. Time vs. frequency domain, calculating filter coefficients, z-transforms, phase locked loops, stochastic signals, detection and estimation theory, etc., are all EE subjects. The "CS" part of it is actually very simple. The data structures are arrays and the control structures are loops. Nothing fancy, so a CS education is of limited value.
Now there's a blurred line with ASICs and FPGAs but those tend to be programmed by EE people more often than CS types.
Same explanation as above. I don't think I've ever seen a CS person doing FPGA or ASIC design. The fact that VHDL and Verilog look a lot like programming languages is not a big deal. You're designing circuits, not software.
it seems that engineering is on a sharp decline in the US. I know there are a lot of very competent and skilled engineers in the US, but there are also a lot of very bad ones
And you think that's any different elsewhere, or in any other field?
engineering is on a sharp decline in the US... seem to have been betrayed by the education system
No. We have some of the world's best engineering schools. I've also known some excellent EE's that graduated from Podunk Tech. I've known a few that never graduated. I don't mean to diminish the value of a good university education, but with the possible exception of a few very theory intensive specialties, it's not the most important thing. At least as valuable are an interest, an aptitude, and learning the craft from good mentors after you graduate.
As an EE who is a pack rat, I can tell you that's absolutely wrong. If I could hoard jobs the way I hoard junk, I'd have at least half-a-dozen in the basement.
As long as Americans continue to elect politicians that worship companies and the "free market" over their own countries interests you are going to continue to lose out...
Free market? You're kidding, right? That's a line for the suckers. With tax rules that encourage outsourcing and tax capital gains lower than earned income, corporate subsidies, excessive government granted monopolies (known euphemistically and inaccurately as "intellectual property"), and a host of other abuses, the last thing we have is a free market.
As far as "worship", the only thing politicians worship is bribes (e.g. campaign "contributions" and cushy revolving door jobs).
The real thing that matters, though, is that manufacturing moved to China and now all the learning about how to actually make things is going direct to engineers in China who, if the trend doesn't reverse fast, will be better at all kinds of design that US engineers within a generation.
Just as I, and other engineers I know, predicted 30+ years ago. Whence manufacturing goes, engineering will follow. Anyone in the trenches could have figured it out. Only "higher level" people, or easily brainwashed grunts, would think otherwise.
They also have a bad habit of assuming that any distribution that's roughly bell shaped is Gaussian, or close enough anyway. See Gaussian copula, risk analysis, financial crisis.
Salaries in technology are rising at a rate of 7.5% or so per year [forbes.com].
No, they're projected to increase by that much in 2014, by folks who have a vested interested in making it look attractive. If you look at historical data, you'll see them rising by 23% over the last ten years. That's less than the inflation over that period.
According to the BLS [bls.gov], they're projecting a 22% increase in demand for developers.
Here's another one from the BLS that says 8% (same as average). The BLS breaks up software jobs into a bunch of categories that nobody has been able to figure out.
The supply has gone up, but not by that much.
It could. You're talking about 10 years. CS enrollment was booming in the 90's. Then came the crash in 2000/2001. CS enrollment dropped by over a third. High school students are not as dumb or historically ignorant as some people believe. They know what happened back then, and so are much less likely to fall for the current hype.
Unemployment among techies is about 4.4%
Which makes it 1.1% higher than the average for people with bachelor's degrees.
If there are lots of people who want to do a job, for a low amount of money, maybe that's all the job is worth. What does it matter what country the people are from.
Tell you what. First let's eliminate all the immigration and "guest worker" restrictions on doctors, lawyers, accountants, and most importantly, small business people. Then we can get rid of region pricing, greater IP "protections" in the US than elsewhere, the restrictions on people directly importing pharmaceuticals (despite having US prescriptions and the drugs coming from the same plant that the US stuff comes from). There are a bunch of other things, but it might take me 5 or 10 minutes to think of them.
After all that is done we can talk about freely taking advantage of the "global village's" supply of STEM labor. Otherwise what you're saying is that you're willing to get screwed some more (thank you sir, may I have another) in the pursuit of some economic ideal that's preached to the peasants, while the politically powerful enjoy the fruits of protectionism.
There is no global village, and there won't be, at least in our lives (and our children's and our grandchildren's). It's a fantasy preached by those who stand to benefit economically, and their numerous sycophants, to people who stand to loose economically. If gazillionaires stand to benefit economically from "free trade" and labor mobility, they and their sycophants will talk about the global village and the virtues of "free trade". If they stand to benefit from keeping things in the US, or defense contracts, then they'll wrap themselves in the flag.
"Liberal" means very little. At the very least you have to distinguish between social and economic politics. Plenty of big business types, especially in places like Silicon Valley, are social liberals (gay marriage, etc.), but economics is another matter. Democrats are very good at pandering to this crowd in both aspects, and Republicans cater to their economic leanings. In other words, you're screwed. Real Democrats and moderate Republicans are, if not extinct, at least endangered species.
Increased immigration ("immigration reform") is usually associated with the "liberals" in this country. The right-wingers are generally associated with anti-immigration sentiments.
The right-wingers are generally opposed to amnesty for illegal aliens and also want stronger border enforcement, etc. When it comes to increasing the H-1B quota they, or at least their supposed representatives, are all for it. Look at the voting records. The Democrats aren't much different, which is why people get so screwed by the endless stream of H-1B's. This is a bipartisan screwing. Occasionally you get a decent politician like Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) who actually want at least some protections, but they're such a small minority it doesn't matter.
Somehow I envision a Wikipedia of maps, with boundaries and street names changing at random if two groups can't agree. Sure it may not happen in downtown Topeka, but imagine to geo-edit wars that will happen in the Middle East or other disputed territory.
I don't know Topeka, but there are plenty of places in the US where there will be disputes, because it happens already. If a boundary is in dispute, and they often are for neighborhoods or unincorporated villages, people will fight to get their property included in the more prestigious area.
Nice try, but forget the philosophy. It has little to do with real politics. That remark would get someone accused of fomenting "class warfare" today. If you can imagine a contemporary Republican raising the subject in such a way, then I've got a bridge to sell you. The Democrats aren't far behind.
Slashdot Mirror
A lot of EE people do programming too, such as DSP signal analysis, since most newer computing grads aren't qualified
I don't think many CS grads ever did serious DSP work (disclaimer: I'm an EE who also writes DSP code). The techniques and algorithms are what you learn in EE, not CS. Time vs. frequency domain, calculating filter coefficients, z-transforms, phase locked loops, stochastic signals, detection and estimation theory, etc., are all EE subjects. The "CS" part of it is actually very simple. The data structures are arrays and the control structures are loops. Nothing fancy, so a CS education is of limited value.
Now there's a blurred line with ASICs and FPGAs but those tend to be programmed by EE people more often than CS types.
Same explanation as above. I don't think I've ever seen a CS person doing FPGA or ASIC design. The fact that VHDL and Verilog look a lot like programming languages is not a big deal. You're designing circuits, not software.
I switched careers about 5 years ago
What did you switch to?
maybe not so many are needed any more?
That can't explain a 10% drop in one year.
it seems that engineering is on a sharp decline in the US. I know there are a lot of very competent and skilled engineers in the US, but there are also a lot of very bad ones
And you think that's any different elsewhere, or in any other field?
engineering is on a sharp decline in the US ... seem to have been betrayed by the education system
No. We have some of the world's best engineering schools. I've also known some excellent EE's that graduated from Podunk Tech. I've known a few that never graduated. I don't mean to diminish the value of a good university education, but with the possible exception of a few very theory intensive specialties, it's not the most important thing. At least as valuable are an interest, an aptitude, and learning the craft from good mentors after you graduate.
As an EE who is a pack rat, I can tell you that's absolutely wrong. If I could hoard jobs the way I hoard junk, I'd have at least half-a-dozen in the basement.
Sure, jobs are important, but how many electrical engineers died?
How many new grads were there?
there is no clear cut explanation of communism
Except for what Marx, Lenin and Mao wrote. How much more of an explanation do you want?
As long as Americans continue to elect politicians that worship companies and the "free market" over their own countries interests you are going to continue to lose out ...
Free market? You're kidding, right? That's a line for the suckers. With tax rules that encourage outsourcing and tax capital gains lower than earned income, corporate subsidies, excessive government granted monopolies (known euphemistically and inaccurately as "intellectual property"), and a host of other abuses, the last thing we have is a free market.
As far as "worship", the only thing politicians worship is bribes (e.g. campaign "contributions" and cushy revolving door jobs).
The real thing that matters, though, is that manufacturing moved to China and now all the learning about how to actually make things is going direct to engineers in China who, if the trend doesn't reverse fast, will be better at all kinds of design that US engineers within a generation.
Just as I, and other engineers I know, predicted 30+ years ago. Whence manufacturing goes, engineering will follow. Anyone in the trenches could have figured it out. Only "higher level" people, or easily brainwashed grunts, would think otherwise.
They also have a bad habit of assuming that any distribution that's roughly bell shaped is Gaussian, or close enough anyway. See Gaussian copula, risk analysis, financial crisis.
SOHCAHTOA
Salaries in technology are rising at a rate of 7.5% or so per year [forbes.com].
No, they're projected to increase by that much in 2014, by folks who have a vested interested in making it look attractive. If you look at historical data, you'll see them rising by 23% over the last ten years. That's less than the inflation over that period.
According to the BLS [bls.gov], they're projecting a 22% increase in demand for developers.
Here's another one from the BLS that says 8% (same as average). The BLS breaks up software jobs into a bunch of categories that nobody has been able to figure out.
The supply has gone up, but not by that much.
It could. You're talking about 10 years. CS enrollment was booming in the 90's. Then came the crash in 2000/2001. CS enrollment dropped by over a third. High school students are not as dumb or historically ignorant as some people believe. They know what happened back then, and so are much less likely to fall for the current hype.
Unemployment among techies is about 4.4%
Which makes it 1.1% higher than the average for people with bachelor's degrees.
If that was your point then you should have said so. It's a credible argument, rather than ridiculous hyperbole.
You too can try to make a point by pulling absurd numbers out of your ass.
Got two $20's for a $10?
They've been using a "temporary" supposed shortage as an excuse for H-1B's for at least 20 years now.
In most of the Midwest, hiring is a challenge.
Where in the Midwest? That's a big chunk of territory.
There is legitimately a shortage of tech people in the US
Evidence?
If there are lots of people who want to do a job, for a low amount of money, maybe that's all the job is worth. What does it matter what country the people are from.
Tell you what. First let's eliminate all the immigration and "guest worker" restrictions on doctors, lawyers, accountants, and most importantly, small business people. Then we can get rid of region pricing, greater IP "protections" in the US than elsewhere, the restrictions on people directly importing pharmaceuticals (despite having US prescriptions and the drugs coming from the same plant that the US stuff comes from). There are a bunch of other things, but it might take me 5 or 10 minutes to think of them.
After all that is done we can talk about freely taking advantage of the "global village's" supply of STEM labor. Otherwise what you're saying is that you're willing to get screwed some more (thank you sir, may I have another) in the pursuit of some economic ideal that's preached to the peasants, while the politically powerful enjoy the fruits of protectionism.
There is no global village, and there won't be, at least in our lives (and our children's and our grandchildren's). It's a fantasy preached by those who stand to benefit economically, and their numerous sycophants, to people who stand to loose economically. If gazillionaires stand to benefit economically from "free trade" and labor mobility, they and their sycophants will talk about the global village and the virtues of "free trade". If they stand to benefit from keeping things in the US, or defense contracts, then they'll wrap themselves in the flag.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around why STEM funding for kids in the US is even being uttered in the same sentence with H-1B visas?
Clearly you're hung up on things like "logic" and "reason". In order to understand politics you must abandon that obsession.
So, that means that big business leans liberal?
"Liberal" means very little. At the very least you have to distinguish between social and economic politics. Plenty of big business types, especially in places like Silicon Valley, are social liberals (gay marriage, etc.), but economics is another matter. Democrats are very good at pandering to this crowd in both aspects, and Republicans cater to their economic leanings. In other words, you're screwed. Real Democrats and moderate Republicans are, if not extinct, at least endangered species.
Increased immigration ("immigration reform") is usually associated with the "liberals" in this country. The right-wingers are generally associated with anti-immigration sentiments.
The right-wingers are generally opposed to amnesty for illegal aliens and also want stronger border enforcement, etc. When it comes to increasing the H-1B quota they, or at least their supposed representatives, are all for it. Look at the voting records. The Democrats aren't much different, which is why people get so screwed by the endless stream of H-1B's. This is a bipartisan screwing. Occasionally you get a decent politician like Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) who actually want at least some protections, but they're such a small minority it doesn't matter.
That's the latter day corollary to hiding something in plain sight.
Somehow I envision a Wikipedia of maps, with boundaries and street names changing at random if two groups can't agree. Sure it may not happen in downtown Topeka, but imagine to geo-edit wars that will happen in the Middle East or other disputed territory.
I don't know Topeka, but there are plenty of places in the US where there will be disputes, because it happens already. If a boundary is in dispute, and they often are for neighborhoods or unincorporated villages, people will fight to get their property included in the more prestigious area.
Nice try, but forget the philosophy. It has little to do with real politics. That remark would get someone accused of fomenting "class warfare" today. If you can imagine a contemporary Republican raising the subject in such a way, then I've got a bridge to sell you. The Democrats aren't far behind.
As one of the best examples of regulatory capture in the US government these days
Bah. that's peanuts. Try the DoJ (especially w/ respect to financial crimes), Treasury, and various financial regulatory agencies (SEC, OCC, etc.).