The problem is that - and I'm sort of assuming here, so pardon me if I'm wrong - I think the answer wouldn't really help and would make many people angry. The reason those schools work is that they're the schools where parents who care about their children's schooling go.
I think that how much parents care is an important factor. However, do you really think that parents in, say Texas, care less than parents in NY?
You say that without a hint of irony, given the focus on 'testing sucks' upthread.
Are you referring to a specific point I made, or does the unbelievably vague statement that 'testing sucks' suffice for the quality of your argument? Maybe they should put more emphasis on rhetoric in our schools.
Apparently the Finns concentrate their efforts bringing up their bottom 25% (the mouth breathers), other nations spend their money where it will bring the highest returns.
If Finland gets lower returns, then why does their school system beat almost every other country? Do you have any evidence that spending money where you personally think "it will bring the highest returns" gives better results, or are you making the same quality of argument that one would expect from a mouth breather?
Fair enough, but it would be courteous to begin your posts with a disclaimer, so that no one wastes their time replying to you. Something like "The following is blather. Don't waste your time replying to it with actual arguments, questions or evidence."
Here's your damned science, pal: Family emphasis on scholastics massively outweighs dollars per pupil, teacher quality, classroom size, or fancy new fads from ancient phonics thru tablets-4-all in student success.
You may be right, but being a lover of "damned science" (or even the undamned variety), I'll ask you for statistical evidence.
Teachers unions are the single biggest donors to the Democratic party
I'm very much in favor of prohibiting political donations by unions, just as I'm in favor of prohibiting donations by corporations (oops, I mean their PAC's). Talk to the Supreme Court of Corruption.
How the hell are kids in Japan/China/whereever "beating" our children in school?
Oh right, rigorous testing.
China? Who knows. They only give international test results from Shanghai, and given the accuracy of statistics from the Chinese government, I wouldn't particularly trust those.
Japan? They do pretty well, but not as well as Finland. So let's look at some Finnish practices.
Finland does not give their kids standardized tests. It is not mandatory to give students grades until they are in the 8th grade. Finland has no private schools. Finnish schools don't assign homework, because it is assumed that mastery is attained in the classroom. Compulsory school in Finland doesn't begin until children are 7 years old.
Better tell that to the Finns, who focus the most effort on the kids having the greatest difficulty. They also have one of the best school systems in the world, regularly trouncing the US and many of the acclaimed Asian countries.
That was my sloppiness, using public school to refer to a regular public school. I know most charter schools are public schools, and your post made it clear that's what you were talking about.
I am [not?] convinced that the same kids left in regular schools would not have done just as well, because very few of the schools offer an honors curriculum.
Suppose they did though? Most schools around here do. Or suppose there was a regular (i.e. non-charter) public school set up as an honors school?
Strip everything above the state level, and maybe the state too. Education belongs in local hands.
Hear, hear!
To repeat myself from above: I'm not a fanatic about federalism, but I do think there are some places where it should apply. K-12 education is one of them.
Here in my part of NYS our public schools are quite good, though we do pay dearly for them. If people in "I pay $1.29/yr in state and local taxes" places like Texas and Alabama don't want to pay for a decent education for their kids, who am I to interfere? Stop sending my federal tax money to places not willing to fund their own schools.
That can't go on forever, the whole experiment seems fragile.
Why?
they take away less funding from the local district because they receive federal dollars
Bingo! Federal tax money is a major tax impetus. Why not let state and local governments pay for their schools? I'm not a fanatic about federalism, but I do think there are some places where it should apply. K-12 education is one of them.
It sounds like the reason the school was so successful is that it had better students and parents. Ok, one school looks stellar. The question is whether those same kids left in regular schools wouldn't have done just as well. Suppose they'd been allowed to take honors classes in those schools? Suppose there had just been a specialty public school for the honors kids?
I really don't know the answers to those questions, but my point is that your description doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that better students are better students.
Ah, all those brilliantly educated Chinese and Indian students. What percentile of Chinese and Indian students do they represent? Hint: it's a lot more selective than the top 10%.
As a fellow NY'er, whose kids are fortunate enough to attend decent schools, I'd watch that "flyover country" term. IIRC Colorado and some of the northern Midwest (not an exhaustive list) have good schools. OTOH San Diego public schools suck.
Overall though your point is well taken. Saying that public schools in America suck is a gross generalization. When it comes to those international tests where everyone bemoans America's poor ranking, there are large areas (e.g. Mass.) where the students rank up there with those other countries we're supposed to emulate. Tell the geniuses who want to improve America's public schools that they don't have to look beyond the borders - just look at the parts of America that have decent schools.
Oops, you let the cat out of the bag. Don't you know that the official line is that all public schools in America suck? Thankfully my kids attend some of those schools whose existence you should no longer mention.
Agreed. That's a tough one to control for, and one that charter school advocates aren't interested in controlling for. "Lies, damn lies, and statistics" apply to those who don't, or don't want to, understand statistics.
Having standardized tests is useful, as long as you don't take the results of those tests as the be all and end all. To use test results as the only way of judging schools is to fall prey to the MBA mentality - if there isn't a simplistic metric then it doesn't exist. Think of how that mentality has affected so many businesses.
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.
They don't need to "make it look" they are better. They are better.
Obviously something schools aren't teaching well is the scientific method and intellectual skepticism. "They are because I say they are" is not an argument.
Administration of said machine is a staff-intensive mess then.
I bet Iran wishes they'd taken that approach with their enrichment centrifuges:)
I'm old enough to remember when nobody used the Internet for remote administration. While less convenient, and slightly more expensive, it's not that big of a deal for SCADA. You have to remember that most of the boxes in a SCADA system are not like say, web servers, which are computers talking to other computers and doing only computerish stuff. SCADA controls actual physical equipment, that can't be be remotely monitored or manipulated in the same way as "pure" computers. You want somebody on-site doing this anyway, if for no other reason than to verify that the upgrade is working properly. It may also be necessary to turn off equipment that it controls, or switch to manual control or something, in order to do the upgrade.
Slashdot Mirror
You don't know what percentage of the kids in his school district are white.
The problem is that - and I'm sort of assuming here, so pardon me if I'm wrong - I think the answer wouldn't really help and would make many people angry. The reason those schools work is that they're the schools where parents who care about their children's schooling go.
I think that how much parents care is an important factor. However, do you really think that parents in, say Texas, care less than parents in NY?
You say that without a hint of irony, given the focus on 'testing sucks' upthread.
Are you referring to a specific point I made, or does the unbelievably vague statement that 'testing sucks' suffice for the quality of your argument? Maybe they should put more emphasis on rhetoric in our schools.
Apparently the Finns concentrate their efforts bringing up their bottom 25% (the mouth breathers), other nations spend their money where it will bring the highest returns.
If Finland gets lower returns, then why does their school system beat almost every other country? Do you have any evidence that spending money where you personally think "it will bring the highest returns" gives better results, or are you making the same quality of argument that one would expect from a mouth breather?
Fair enough, but it would be courteous to begin your posts with a disclaimer, so that no one wastes their time replying to you. Something like "The following is blather. Don't waste your time replying to it with actual arguments, questions or evidence."
Here's your damned science, pal: Family emphasis on scholastics massively outweighs dollars per pupil, teacher quality, classroom size, or fancy new fads from ancient phonics thru tablets-4-all in student success.
You may be right, but being a lover of "damned science" (or even the undamned variety), I'll ask you for statistical evidence.
Teachers unions are the single biggest donors to the Democratic party
I'm very much in favor of prohibiting political donations by unions, just as I'm in favor of prohibiting donations by corporations (oops, I mean their PAC's). Talk to the Supreme Court of Corruption.
How the hell are kids in Japan/China/whereever "beating" our children in school?
Oh right, rigorous testing.
China? Who knows. They only give international test results from Shanghai, and given the accuracy of statistics from the Chinese government, I wouldn't particularly trust those.
Japan? They do pretty well, but not as well as Finland. So let's look at some Finnish practices.
Finland does not give their kids standardized tests.
It is not mandatory to give students grades until they are in the 8th grade.
Finland has no private schools.
Finnish schools don't assign homework, because it is assumed that mastery is attained in the classroom.
Compulsory school in Finland doesn't begin until children are 7 years old.
Better tell that to the Finns, who focus the most effort on the kids having the greatest difficulty. They also have one of the best school systems in the world, regularly trouncing the US and many of the acclaimed Asian countries.
Our school is a public school.
That was my sloppiness, using public school to refer to a regular public school. I know most charter schools are public schools, and your post made it clear that's what you were talking about.
I am [not?] convinced that the same kids left in regular schools would not have done just as well, because very few of the schools offer an honors curriculum.
Suppose they did though? Most schools around here do. Or suppose there was a regular (i.e. non-charter) public school set up as an honors school?
Strip everything above the state level, and maybe the state too. Education belongs in local hands.
Hear, hear!
To repeat myself from above: I'm not a fanatic about federalism, but I do think there are some places where it should apply. K-12 education is one of them.
Here in my part of NYS our public schools are quite good, though we do pay dearly for them. If people in "I pay $1.29/yr in state and local taxes" places like Texas and Alabama don't want to pay for a decent education for their kids, who am I to interfere? Stop sending my federal tax money to places not willing to fund their own schools.
That can't go on forever, the whole experiment seems fragile.
Why?
they take away less funding from the local district because they receive federal dollars
Bingo! Federal tax money is a major tax impetus. Why not let state and local governments pay for their schools? I'm not a fanatic about federalism, but I do think there are some places where it should apply. K-12 education is one of them.
It sounds like the reason the school was so successful is that it had better students and parents. Ok, one school looks stellar. The question is whether those same kids left in regular schools wouldn't have done just as well. Suppose they'd been allowed to take honors classes in those schools? Suppose there had just been a specialty public school for the honors kids?
I really don't know the answers to those questions, but my point is that your description doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that better students are better students.
Do you have kids in public school, and if so, what part of the country?
Ah, all those brilliantly educated Chinese and Indian students. What percentile of Chinese and Indian students do they represent? Hint: it's a lot more selective than the top 10%.
As a fellow NY'er, whose kids are fortunate enough to attend decent schools, I'd watch that "flyover country" term. IIRC Colorado and some of the northern Midwest (not an exhaustive list) have good schools. OTOH San Diego public schools suck.
Overall though your point is well taken. Saying that public schools in America suck is a gross generalization. When it comes to those international tests where everyone bemoans America's poor ranking, there are large areas (e.g. Mass.) where the students rank up there with those other countries we're supposed to emulate. Tell the geniuses who want to improve America's public schools that they don't have to look beyond the borders - just look at the parts of America that have decent schools.
Oops, you let the cat out of the bag. Don't you know that the official line is that all public schools in America suck? Thankfully my kids attend some of those schools whose existence you should no longer mention.
One assumes that he would be shown the best students from the best school in any given area or district he was visiting.
Wait until he visits schools in China.
Agreed. That's a tough one to control for, and one that charter school advocates aren't interested in controlling for. "Lies, damn lies, and statistics" apply to those who don't, or don't want to, understand statistics.
What else is there to grade schools on?
Having standardized tests is useful, as long as you don't take the results of those tests as the be all and end all. To use test results as the only way of judging schools is to fall prey to the MBA mentality - if there isn't a simplistic metric then it doesn't exist. Think of how that mentality has affected so many businesses.
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.
There is a place for charters serving those under-served by the present system - remedial as well as advanced.
What you're talking about is specialized schools. Those can be charter or public, just as charter schools can be for regular students.
They don't need to "make it look" they are better. They are better.
Obviously something schools aren't teaching well is the scientific method and intellectual skepticism. "They are because I say they are" is not an argument.
Most SCADA stuff is in the private sector.
Administration of said machine is a staff-intensive mess then.
I bet Iran wishes they'd taken that approach with their enrichment centrifuges :)
I'm old enough to remember when nobody used the Internet for remote administration. While less convenient, and slightly more expensive, it's not that big of a deal for SCADA. You have to remember that most of the boxes in a SCADA system are not like say, web servers, which are computers talking to other computers and doing only computerish stuff. SCADA controls actual physical equipment, that can't be be remotely monitored or manipulated in the same way as "pure" computers. You want somebody on-site doing this anyway, if for no other reason than to verify that the upgrade is working properly. It may also be necessary to turn off equipment that it controls, or switch to manual control or something, in order to do the upgrade.
Judging by your "ThreeKelvin" name, it must have been a liquid helium plant.