The question is not can we build these thing to me, the question is can we reliably maintain then in any capacity.
I agree the maintenance will be a nightmare, but disagree about the construction. There's no way they can afford to get anywhere near the reliability of aerospace.
Thanks for the heads up. I've bought a number of Toyotas, and been satisfied. Last time was a 2006 model. Pretty good, but I've heard from a number of sources that they've gone down hill since then. A shame. A reputation like they had takes decades to build, but can be destroyed in a few years. Maybe they've been infected by American management thinking.
Yeah, sounds like it's more hype than reality at this point. What they've done is very impressive, but I suspect it's a long way from working in true real world conditions.
Isn't there a solid state way to do this so that failure of the mechanism results in a closed position and leave out all the fancy microcontrollers.
Better yet, do what they did in older ECU's. Keep the mechanical linkage between the accelerator and the throttle plate. If the throttle plate is closed, the ECU can't make the engine generate more power, hence the ECU is no longer safety critical. What they've done nowadays, with the ECU controlling the throttle plate, is just bad system design.
Probably because ADA was a government design by committee thing
That was the assumption most people made, not the reality. Jean Ichbiah was the chief designer, and worked with a very small team. If you actually learn Ada, you'll see that, whether or not you like it, it's very consistent and well thought out. It's not a bunch of bolt-on features like a committee design.
Agreed. 83 was too B&D for general purpose work, but not B&D enough for true hi-rel. 95 solved that by making the basic language less B&D for the sake of general purpose stuff, but adding pragmas that let you make it more B&D than 83 for hi-rel work.
On airliners they're willing to spend just a little more on extremely reliable and redundant hardware than they are on cars. Makes a difference. It also helps if you code to extremely stringent standards like DO-178B Level A, which costs a fortune. Light aircraft don't use fly-by-wire, why do cars need it?
AFAIK the main argument for fly-by-wire on airliners is that it allows for a reduced stability aerodynamic design, which reduces drag and hence fuel consumption. Considering the amount of fuel an airliner consumes, it's worth spending a king's ransom on fly-by-wire. The payback is definitely there. I know of no similar argument for most of the current generation of electronics in cars, and they're certainly not willing to pay the price.
I agree. Repeating myself a little, but I think the point is worth making. ECU's have been around since the 70's, and became ubiquitous in the 80's. AFAIK the older systems had a mechanical linkage between the gas pedal and the throttle plate. The ECU then read the air flow sensor, and various other sensors, to set the fuel injection and spark timing. Obviously it can fail, but it's a soft fail. The engine won't run, or more likely won't run well. Sudden acceleration or unstoppable engine though? Forget it. With the throttle plate closed there's no way you can get any more than the power produced at idle, no matter what the ECU does.
Probably true, though I'm surprised anyone these days has even heard of Ada. Must be an older moderator, but one who thinks anything he doesn't agree with should be modded down. Better if you'd said safety critical software should be written in Ruby or something.
There are many things I like about Ada, but even the military has given up on it. The F-22 software was written in Ada, but the F-35 software is written in C++. Hmm, considering how the F-35 project is going, maybe they should bring back Ada.
I agree. I'm hardly a Luddite, but being an embedded hardware/software engineer, I know what kinds of problems can crop up. The use of computers for safety critical functions was pretty well developed years ago in aerospace, but it's very expensive. Developing the software is also very expensive (and dull frankly), and has to meet stringent standards (the higher tiers of DO-178B). It sound like Toyota anyway, haven't even reached the point of good practices, let alone stringent standards. The car makers have decided they want aerospace style control, but without the costs. Good luck with that.
ECU's have been around since the 70's, and became ubiquitous in the 80's. AFAIK the older systems had a mechanical linkage between the gas pedal and the throttle plate. The ECU then read the air flow sensor, and various other sensors, to set the fuel injection and spark timing. Obviously it can fail, but it's a soft fail. The engine won't run, or more likely won't run well. Sudden acceleration or unstoppable engine though? Forget it. With the throttle plate closed there's no way you can get any more than the power produced at idle, no matter what the ECU does.
In the case of Google's claim, they're backing it up with solid data
Do you have a link to that? Seriously, no snark. All I've seen is hype, but I can't say I've read everything they've published.
What about testing in rain or snow, especially falling snow? Unmapped roads? Heavy pedestrian traffic? Do what extent is their safety record accounted for by the fact that the drivers know when the autonomous mode is likely to get into trouble, and shut it off before that happens?
I seriously doubt he has a decent concept of what can be done in "cyber warfare"
Make everybody run out and buy postage stamps, so they can pay their bills the same way they did 10 or 15 years ago? Buy more newspapers and magazines? Go to a bookstore instead of Amazon? Stop wasting time on Slashdot?
I'd dump all of my Treasury bonds on the market all at once, use my US currency to buy Euros, Pounds Sterling, Yen and various other currencies
Why would they do the enemy a favor? An overvalued dollar has been our bane for years. Let it fall and the trade deficit disappears, and more industry comes back to the US. Worried about the dollar falling too far? Do you have any idea how much in securities the Federal Reserve holds, especially after QE, QE2, etc.? Sell them and suck up as much cash as you need. And do you think all those other countries and wealthy people and organizations outside the US, who hold a lot of securities valued in USD, would happily watch the value of their investments disappear, or would they cooperate with the US to save them?
cut the prices for all home grown tech (like Lenovo computers) to the bone
Yes, I know both my references were to things in Georgia. Like any self-respecting Yankee though, I know a distinction between any Confederate or border states isn't worth making.
Good theory, but do you have an example of that working in the 21st century? If not, I'll stick with facts and empiricism, and go with what works in dozens of countries around the world.
An ACA Exchange is a joke (the joke's on you and me). Health care exchanges have been tried and did little or nothing to improve things. They're a pretense to have some sort of free market competition inside of a government mandated system, which only seems like a contradiction only because it is. Either throw everybody to the scum, or have either a properly regulated system of non-profits or the government as a universal health insurer. That works everywhere else, but we have to maintain a pretense and get the worst of both worlds. An alternative explanation is that it has little to do with ideological pretense, and much to do with guaranteed customers for for-profit insurance companies.
I agree with your criticism of Obamacare. The answer is to have real "socialism", like in Canada, Japan, Australia, and most of Western Europe. Then we could save a third off the top. Total US healthcare expenditures are 50% greater as a percentage of GDP than any other country, for no more care and no better results.
I'm too much of a cheap bastard to worry about ideology.
And they play a mean banjo too. I saw "Deliverance".
P.S. A widely used technique in American humor has long been to have an outwardly unsophisticated character who is actually more insightful than the superficially sophisticated characters. In the spirit of the Appalachian-American(1) stereotype, it looks like Kentucky has brought humor to real life.
(1) Bo Duke said that this term was now preferred to "hillbilly".
Slashdot Mirror
The question is not can we build these thing to me, the question is can we reliably maintain then in any capacity.
I agree the maintenance will be a nightmare, but disagree about the construction. There's no way they can afford to get anywhere near the reliability of aerospace.
Thanks for the heads up. I've bought a number of Toyotas, and been satisfied. Last time was a 2006 model. Pretty good, but I've heard from a number of sources that they've gone down hill since then. A shame. A reputation like they had takes decades to build, but can be destroyed in a few years. Maybe they've been infected by American management thinking.
Yeah, sounds like it's more hype than reality at this point. What they've done is very impressive, but I suspect it's a long way from working in true real world conditions.
Isn't there a solid state way to do this so that failure of the mechanism results in a closed position and leave out all the fancy microcontrollers.
Better yet, do what they did in older ECU's. Keep the mechanical linkage between the accelerator and the throttle plate. If the throttle plate is closed, the ECU can't make the engine generate more power, hence the ECU is no longer safety critical. What they've done nowadays, with the ECU controlling the throttle plate, is just bad system design.
You can write bad code in any language, but some languages make it easier than others.
Probably because ADA was a government design by committee thing
That was the assumption most people made, not the reality. Jean Ichbiah was the chief designer, and worked with a very small team. If you actually learn Ada, you'll see that, whether or not you like it, it's very consistent and well thought out. It's not a bunch of bolt-on features like a committee design.
Ada 83 sucked. Ada 95 fixed most of the problems
Agreed. 83 was too B&D for general purpose work, but not B&D enough for true hi-rel. 95 solved that by making the basic language less B&D for the sake of general purpose stuff, but adding pragmas that let you make it more B&D than 83 for hi-rel work.
On airliners they're willing to spend just a little more on extremely reliable and redundant hardware than they are on cars. Makes a difference. It also helps if you code to extremely stringent standards like DO-178B Level A, which costs a fortune. Light aircraft don't use fly-by-wire, why do cars need it?
AFAIK the main argument for fly-by-wire on airliners is that it allows for a reduced stability aerodynamic design, which reduces drag and hence fuel consumption. Considering the amount of fuel an airliner consumes, it's worth spending a king's ransom on fly-by-wire. The payback is definitely there. I know of no similar argument for most of the current generation of electronics in cars, and they're certainly not willing to pay the price.
I agree. Repeating myself a little, but I think the point is worth making. ECU's have been around since the 70's, and became ubiquitous in the 80's. AFAIK the older systems had a mechanical linkage between the gas pedal and the throttle plate. The ECU then read the air flow sensor, and various other sensors, to set the fuel injection and spark timing. Obviously it can fail, but it's a soft fail. The engine won't run, or more likely won't run well. Sudden acceleration or unstoppable engine though? Forget it. With the throttle plate closed there's no way you can get any more than the power produced at idle, no matter what the ECU does.
Probably true, though I'm surprised anyone these days has even heard of Ada. Must be an older moderator, but one who thinks anything he doesn't agree with should be modded down. Better if you'd said safety critical software should be written in Ruby or something.
There are many things I like about Ada, but even the military has given up on it. The F-22 software was written in Ada, but the F-35 software is written in C++. Hmm, considering how the F-35 project is going, maybe they should bring back Ada.
I agree. I'm hardly a Luddite, but being an embedded hardware/software engineer, I know what kinds of problems can crop up. The use of computers for safety critical functions was pretty well developed years ago in aerospace, but it's very expensive. Developing the software is also very expensive (and dull frankly), and has to meet stringent standards (the higher tiers of DO-178B). It sound like Toyota anyway, haven't even reached the point of good practices, let alone stringent standards. The car makers have decided they want aerospace style control, but without the costs. Good luck with that.
ECU's have been around since the 70's, and became ubiquitous in the 80's. AFAIK the older systems had a mechanical linkage between the gas pedal and the throttle plate. The ECU then read the air flow sensor, and various other sensors, to set the fuel injection and spark timing. Obviously it can fail, but it's a soft fail. The engine won't run, or more likely won't run well. Sudden acceleration or unstoppable engine though? Forget it. With the throttle plate closed there's no way you can get any more than the power produced at idle, no matter what the ECU does.
Its ready NOW.
How do you come to that conclusion? Not even Google says it's ready NOW.
In the case of Google's claim, they're backing it up with solid data
Do you have a link to that? Seriously, no snark. All I've seen is hype, but I can't say I've read everything they've published.
What about testing in rain or snow, especially falling snow? Unmapped roads? Heavy pedestrian traffic? Do what extent is their safety record accounted for by the fact that the drivers know when the autonomous mode is likely to get into trouble, and shut it off before that happens?
I seriously doubt he has a decent concept of what can be done in "cyber warfare"
Make everybody run out and buy postage stamps, so they can pay their bills the same way they did 10 or 15 years ago?
Buy more newspapers and magazines?
Go to a bookstore instead of Amazon?
Stop wasting time on Slashdot?
I'd dump all of my Treasury bonds on the market all at once, use my US currency to buy Euros, Pounds Sterling, Yen and various other currencies
Why would they do the enemy a favor? An overvalued dollar has been our bane for years. Let it fall and the trade deficit disappears, and more industry comes back to the US. Worried about the dollar falling too far? Do you have any idea how much in securities the Federal Reserve holds, especially after QE, QE2, etc.? Sell them and suck up as much cash as you need. And do you think all those other countries and wealthy people and organizations outside the US, who hold a lot of securities valued in USD, would happily watch the value of their investments disappear, or would they cooperate with the US to save them?
cut the prices for all home grown tech (like Lenovo computers) to the bone
They did that years ago.
If you're a zillion years old, short, live in a swamp, and can raise starfighters with your mind, nobody gives a damn if you're dyslexic.
They used to play cards together.
Your date is off a little. He predicted it in 1916.
You obviously believe that most of those regulations will be enforced. I've got a bridge to sell you.
And I see you chose to ignore my question. Stop living in (a largely imagined) past Golden Era. It was cheap when they couldn't do much for you.
Yes, I know both my references were to things in Georgia. Like any self-respecting Yankee though, I know a distinction between any Confederate or border states isn't worth making.
There are obviously people here who [have] never read a book in their life that wasn't required by some teacher.
Good theory, but do you have an example of that working in the 21st century? If not, I'll stick with facts and empiricism, and go with what works in dozens of countries around the world.
An ACA Exchange is a joke (the joke's on you and me). Health care exchanges have been tried and did little or nothing to improve things. They're a pretense to have some sort of free market competition inside of a government mandated system, which only seems like a contradiction only because it is. Either throw everybody to the scum, or have either a properly regulated system of non-profits or the government as a universal health insurer. That works everywhere else, but we have to maintain a pretense and get the worst of both worlds. An alternative explanation is that it has little to do with ideological pretense, and much to do with guaranteed customers for for-profit insurance companies.
I agree with your criticism of Obamacare. The answer is to have real "socialism", like in Canada, Japan, Australia, and most of Western Europe. Then we could save a third off the top. Total US healthcare expenditures are 50% greater as a percentage of GDP than any other country, for no more care and no better results.
I'm too much of a cheap bastard to worry about ideology.
And they play a mean banjo too. I saw "Deliverance".
P.S. A widely used technique in American humor has long been to have an outwardly unsophisticated character who is actually more insightful than the superficially sophisticated characters. In the spirit of the Appalachian-American(1) stereotype, it looks like Kentucky has brought humor to real life.
(1) Bo Duke said that this term was now preferred to "hillbilly".