I agree points 2 and 3 are important. As for point 1, I didn't say that Clojure was a bad language (I don't even know it), just that it was YALV. Even if it's superior to other Lisp(s), it's still another step in the balkanization that has helped keep Lisp(s) in a niche.
Having many standards is the same as having no standard, and often even a mediocre standard is better than no standard at all.
Even though I have mixed feelings about the Lisp family of languages, I wish they would become more popular. I've never been convinced that it's the One True Approach, but for some things they're great.
Unfortunately, much of the Lisp(s) community is the biggest enemy of the broader adoption of Lisp(s). Part of the problem is that one has to refer to Lisp(s) in the plural. Common Lisp is clearly the most powerful variant, but it's byzantine in its (unnecessary) complexity and redundant features, as well as still using a standard from 1985 (the later ANSI standard didn't change much). I understand that CL started as an attempt to unify various Lisp dialects, which explains its byzantine and redundant features. But that was 27 years ago! They could have moved towards deprecating parts of it. Allow it to compiled with a switch that says "accept deprecated", "warn on deprecated" or "forbid deprecated". The libraries also need some serious updating. 27 years ago people didn't expect networking and graphics in standard libraries, but times change. The usual rebuttal that there are many such libraries is part of the problem. Lisp is the ultimate in herding cats.
Scheme turns that around. It started as a "toy" language for teaching, but 30+ years still doesn't have standard features needed in a powerful language (e.g. a module system). R6RS tried to fix that, but was largely rejected by the implementers. R7RS is supposed to fix that, but we'll see. Meanwhile Racket (and other implementations) go off and do their own thing (albeit Racket has pragmas to enforce R5RS or R6RS compatibility).
Now along comes Clojure. I haven't even looked at it because my reaction is that the last thing the world needs is YALV (Yet Another Lisp Variant). Undoubtedly Clojure fans will tell me what's newer and betterer about it, but it's still YALV.
Lastly there's the attitude of a small but vocal minority of Lispers who believe Lisp(s) are the One True Approach, are condescending towards anyone who doesn't accept that as an article of faith, and argue that every drawback of Lisp(s) is actually an advantage that lesser programmers don't appreciate. If their goal is to keep Lisp(s) a niche language used only by the self-proclaimed cognoscenti, they're doing a damn good job of it.
Are they going to send a human Canadian? Ho-hum. Humans on the moon is a been-there-done-that kind of thing. Now, the first moose on the moon, that would be be cool!
Remember when The Scream was stolen? I was like, "where are they gonna fence that?"
To somebody with too much money and too little ethics. It's done all the time with irreplaceable objects. The thieves probably just lacked the right connections.
There is no contradiction there. Altruism and collectivism are economic issues.
Gimme a break.
You're missing the forest for the trees. I disagree with his concern about pron, and many other things. I lean to the left, but cite an article from The American Conservative because he makes the basic criticisms of libertarianism so well, not because I otherwise agree with the author's politics. The author's important point is that what other people do, and are allowed to do, does affect others. Libertarians ignore that, or take the extremist view that there is no right to regulate other people's behavior except where it involves physical violence. In the real world compromise is necessary. I don't want to interfere with my neighbor watching pron, but having him open a slaughterhouse in a residential neighborhood is another matter.
The most important point in the article is this:
Like Marxism, libertarianism offers the fraudulent intellectual security of a complete a priori account of the political good without the effort of empirical investigation.
there have been a number of analysis done which showed that without the support of people who happened to be living in the San Francisco bay area, and the liberal support of the University of California system, Silicon Valley could not have happened
That's probably true, but there was nothing unique about the bay area when SV got started. Many other places had/have good universities, and most of the people who started SV weren't even from that area. The "gang of eight", for example, were all people who moved there because they got jobs at Shockley Semiconductor Laboratories.
Attempts to replicate it have failed due to a lack of the right people or lack of economic support.
Or because Shockley and his mom are dead. It was really the IC that made SV, and inventions like that don't come along very often.
Businesses build where they can acquire (1)people (2)space (3)economic benefits (4)access to transportation for goods.
You forgot #5: happenstance. The best explanation for why Silicon Valley is where it is, is that Bill Shockley's mother lived there. He could have started Shockley Semiconductor Laboratories almost anywhere he wanted, and either New Jersey or SoCal would have made more sense. Seattle became a big tech hub because Gates and Allen were from there, and they missed home more than they liked New Mexico.
by this measure, DC, Maryland, and Virginia are a leading cluster
It's called "pork". I frequently travel to the Rockville-Gaithersburg-Germantown corridor of Maryland on business, and I never fail to be amazed just how much STEM work is there, and in nearby areas, mostly sucking off the government teat. I know it extends well beyond STEM, but that's the part of it that's most visible to me. It's nice to know the rest of the country's tax dollars are going towards keeping the people there fat and happy, while most of the rest of the country limps along.
English started as a European language. However they've bastardized it over there, while we Americans have preserved its integrity (not far from the truth - American English is closer to the common language of the Colonial Era than British English).
It's also not a free market if the owners of a company have a magical, state created and enforced, way to escape their liabilities. It's called a "corporation".
The US is so far from Sweden in this regard that any comparisons are pointless. Neither I, nor I suspect any other posters here, know about the situation in Chile.
Slashdot Mirror
I agree points 2 and 3 are important. As for point 1, I didn't say that Clojure was a bad language (I don't even know it), just that it was YALV. Even if it's superior to other Lisp(s), it's still another step in the balkanization that has helped keep Lisp(s) in a niche.
Having many standards is the same as having no standard, and often even a mediocre standard is better than no standard at all.
borking up the whitespace in a Python code sample? That ain't OK at all.
It may have to do with a sloppy HTML conversion by Slashdot or something, but it is ironic.
P.S. I'm actually a fan of the Python/Haskell whitespace approach.
Even though I have mixed feelings about the Lisp family of languages, I wish they would become more popular. I've never been convinced that it's the One True Approach, but for some things they're great.
Unfortunately, much of the Lisp(s) community is the biggest enemy of the broader adoption of Lisp(s). Part of the problem is that one has to refer to Lisp(s) in the plural. Common Lisp is clearly the most powerful variant, but it's byzantine in its (unnecessary) complexity and redundant features, as well as still using a standard from 1985 (the later ANSI standard didn't change much). I understand that CL started as an attempt to unify various Lisp dialects, which explains its byzantine and redundant features. But that was 27 years ago! They could have moved towards deprecating parts of it. Allow it to compiled with a switch that says "accept deprecated", "warn on deprecated" or "forbid deprecated". The libraries also need some serious updating. 27 years ago people didn't expect networking and graphics in standard libraries, but times change. The usual rebuttal that there are many such libraries is part of the problem. Lisp is the ultimate in herding cats.
Scheme turns that around. It started as a "toy" language for teaching, but 30+ years still doesn't have standard features needed in a powerful language (e.g. a module system). R6RS tried to fix that, but was largely rejected by the implementers. R7RS is supposed to fix that, but we'll see. Meanwhile Racket (and other implementations) go off and do their own thing (albeit Racket has pragmas to enforce R5RS or R6RS compatibility).
Now along comes Clojure. I haven't even looked at it because my reaction is that the last thing the world needs is YALV (Yet Another Lisp Variant). Undoubtedly Clojure fans will tell me what's newer and betterer about it, but it's still YALV.
Lastly there's the attitude of a small but vocal minority of Lispers who believe Lisp(s) are the One True Approach, are condescending towards anyone who doesn't accept that as an article of faith, and argue that every drawback of Lisp(s) is actually an advantage that lesser programmers don't appreciate. If their goal is to keep Lisp(s) a niche language used only by the self-proclaimed cognoscenti, they're doing a damn good job of it.
Are they going to send a human Canadian? Ho-hum. Humans on the moon is a been-there-done-that kind of thing. Now, the first moose on the moon, that would be be cool!
tell them that country is Canada
Canada is a country? Then how come their queen lives in the mother country?
Yes she was, but it was so secret at the time that she couldn't reveal what she was doing.
Almost as importantly, almost all of Fairchild's very early IC production was sold to the military.
You tend to be a bit obsessive-compulsive. Right?
He's posting on Slashdot.
Remember when The Scream was stolen? I was like, "where are they gonna fence that?"
To somebody with too much money and too little ethics. It's done all the time with irreplaceable objects. The thieves probably just lacked the right connections.
I always thought it was better to barbeque in the winter. Why stand around a fire in the summer?
You're kidding, right? The fundamental principle of a corporation is "limited liability". Look it up.
Pick a way.
There is no contradiction there. Altruism and collectivism are economic issues.
Gimme a break.
You're missing the forest for the trees. I disagree with his concern about pron, and many other things. I lean to the left, but cite an article from The American Conservative because he makes the basic criticisms of libertarianism so well, not because I otherwise agree with the author's politics. The author's important point is that what other people do, and are allowed to do, does affect others. Libertarians ignore that, or take the extremist view that there is no right to regulate other people's behavior except where it involves physical violence. In the real world compromise is necessary. I don't want to interfere with my neighbor watching pron, but having him open a slaughterhouse in a residential neighborhood is another matter.
The most important point in the article is this:
Like Marxism, libertarianism offers the fraudulent intellectual security of a complete a priori account of the political good without the effort of empirical investigation.
TL;DR, but thanks for helping to make my point.
there have been a number of analysis done which showed that without the support of people who happened to be living in the San Francisco bay area, and the liberal support of the University of California system, Silicon Valley could not have happened
That's probably true, but there was nothing unique about the bay area when SV got started. Many other places had/have good universities, and most of the people who started SV weren't even from that area. The "gang of eight", for example, were all people who moved there because they got jobs at Shockley Semiconductor Laboratories.
Attempts to replicate it have failed due to a lack of the right people or lack of economic support.
Or because Shockley and his mom are dead. It was really the IC that made SV, and inventions like that don't come along very often.
That's true to some extent, but lots of places have gotten some federal spending (both legitimate and pork). The DC area is an endless hog trough.
If they're not nice to us, we could lead everyone over a cliff. Errr, who goes first in that scenario?
It's the same place.
Probably why the GP said "are a leading cluster" instead of "are leading clusters".
Businesses build where they can acquire (1)people (2)space (3)economic benefits (4)access to transportation for goods.
You forgot #5: happenstance. The best explanation for why Silicon Valley is where it is, is that Bill Shockley's mother lived there. He could have started Shockley Semiconductor Laboratories almost anywhere he wanted, and either New Jersey or SoCal would have made more sense. Seattle became a big tech hub because Gates and Allen were from there, and they missed home more than they liked New Mexico.
by this measure, DC, Maryland, and Virginia are a leading cluster
It's called "pork". I frequently travel to the Rockville-Gaithersburg-Germantown corridor of Maryland on business, and I never fail to be amazed just how much STEM work is there, and in nearby areas, mostly sucking off the government teat. I know it extends well beyond STEM, but that's the part of it that's most visible to me. It's nice to know the rest of the country's tax dollars are going towards keeping the people there fat and happy, while most of the rest of the country limps along.
English started as a European language. However they've bastardized it over there, while we Americans have preserved its integrity (not far from the truth - American English is closer to the common language of the Colonial Era than British English).
with temps as low as 14 F
You must be from California or something. Some of us call those temps "winter".
Mighty touchy about a quip, aren't we.
We're discussing employment, not serfdom.
It's also not a free market if the owners of a company have a magical, state created and enforced, way to escape their liabilities. It's called a "corporation".
The US is so far from Sweden in this regard that any comparisons are pointless. Neither I, nor I suspect any other posters here, know about the situation in Chile.
Someone needs to take some logic courses. And then some courses on capitalism. BTW, you pay for your text messages? Really?
That's a classic non-argument. Try making a point.