I am as enthusiastic about notes as most/.'ers are about linux. If there is one thing I (and a few others have stated during this discussion) have found, it is that you need to know notes really well to run a good system. This isn't a toy that you can play with for a week.
As for a lot of postings. It was well deserved. I haven't seen such blatent spreading of misinformation in a long time.
As a systems integrator, many problems are not caused by software but are easy to blame the software. I do it with MS all the time.
There aren't many problems if you can successfully scale a mountain of servers to support 100,000+ users.
As for being late to the discussion...i work! I can't spend all day hitting/. 100 times waiting to complain about something else. Notice that I started at 12am CST. Thats when I got off work, and I got up at 6am to do it all over again.
And be prepared. I will be back when the next Notes discussion comes around. Just try to get
2: No one argues that the DB capabilities are not very strong (flat file). Rather that THEY HAVE ANY AT ALL! Show me a system where you can reprogram you're whole email system from scratch and maintain external DB connectivity.
3: My servers dont go down...and if they did go down that often, it wouldnt sell.
4: Running out of disk space has nothing to do with notes. That can happen on any platform. OR get more disk space. Are you an end user?
5: and you have full progmatic access to all the data. It can be easilly moved to whereever you want it. If it is done right, you never need to move it. Plus if you knew anything about the field level replication and the data store, you'd realize that there is not a standardized format that works with such an advanced feature.
>So Lotus has finally decided to "jump on the Linux bandwagon" has it?
For the last time! This is OLD news. Here is the JANUARY Computerworld snippet that says they would be developing the 5.0 server for linux. Linus Redux
>Lotus strikes me as a company very fond of heading in whatever direction the latest band-wagon might happen to be headed.
Read above statement. They were talking about it when everyone else did. Does this change your opinion?
>Recently, they dropped Unix support for all but the Domino server.
That would be because they are going to browser access. Only a couple of clients are being developed for DB Application Design!!! Seems to me that Lotus *IS* the forward thinking company that you say they are not.
>you can not win the game by allowing Microsoft to set the rules!
MS has never set the rules in this area. They have never gained ground on the installed base of notes. MS for once is clawing and scratching and still losing.
In fact, this information about a linux port was ON/. It is truely sad how easilly this community has taken misinformation and twisted it around against LN/D. I wouldnt blame them if they didn't release it after all.
You're little linux bandwagon is just a little chevette in an SUV world. Stop compaining.
Sorry, this is my 100th post on the subject, but...
>You'd never be able to get anything as good looking as/. out of Domino
You must not know much about Domino because this is EXACLTY what it is good at, with a lot less programming too. This could be done with simple @ commands much like a simple spreadsheet. Plus you wouldn't have to mess with a backend SQL system either.
>your company will never be truly successful when you are following the hype instead of leading it.
Interesting thought...since it seems anyone interested in true groupware is trying to catch up with all the features available in LN/D.
>Your customer base has been begging for a linux port for YEARS
Take a class in business. Until recently, developing a port to linux wasn't worth the $$$ they would get from the 4 people who would actually buy it for linux.
Secondly, The origional post is old news anyway. The Linux port has been approved well before any of these box builders out there even though of selling PCs with linux preinstalled.
ACK! All you have to do is place the HTML files in the configured directory...
You dont have to put your pages IN notes.
As for the use of notes. 3 months is nothing when it comes to learning a new system. BUT...
The above web site, although a bit ugly (I am not a graphic artist) was done completely in notes with SSL and a fully functional shopping cart system. this was with NO knowledge of HTML, CGI, PERL, JAVA, JAVASCRIPT, ETC.
And it only took me 6 months to learn how to do that. And I wrote it all that way I wanted it be. No prepackaged crap that is out there.
On the other note, the other web site that also runs on this server was created with frontpage and ftp'd into the directory and it works fine.
>and second, there's not that many people who want to fool with it.
Ya you are right...30 million people is not many at all.
I am currently on my first boot after installing R5 on NT, which was over a month ago. Previously, I was running 4.6x and it never crashed. Only took it down ever month or so for updates.
Come to think of it. My server has only crashed 1 time and that was my fault.
The only MS product running is the OS...I am using 3rd party apps for everything else.
The only reason that Windows (and now mac) have an actual client is for developing the applications for a web based system. Thats where the future is (unfortunatly) and thats how it's going to be. I dont think you'd have any luck getting them to release another client. R5 was made to eliminate the client.
They won't blame linux, they will tell the user to use the version that they developed it for.
They will blame the user.
If I try to use Office 2000 on Win3.1, MS would tell me the same thing.
I think the various distributions of linux is going to hurt linux's potential as more main stream applications are developed. Linux must become more standardized before it will ever be able to compete in the app server/workstation market.
>That is, when I am able to use it, due to poor setup
Well to start, this statement alone should discount all further statements against LN/D. Notes setup is very important.
>I am able to read my proprietarily stored email
Everything in notes is stored the same way. Even the server configuration files. I personally dont see a need to have to be able to read already downloaded email in multiple programs. Maybe if the server is down, but you dont need a server to read your mail if you keep a local copy of the database. Replication is LN/D most powerful feature.
>on which access depends on the uptime of the server (about 1.5 days)
I'll chalk this one up to the poor setup you talked about. My beta 1 test server never crashed that quickly.
>I can't go in using a decent emailer to read some of this email
Depending on the version, you can use any email program you like. Notes as far back as 4.5 i believe is MAPI compliant.
>I'd much rather use a bunch of smaller apps that do the individual parts better
So you like Micros~1. Bucket of bolts flying in close formation.
If it were really that bad (seemingly worse than Micro~1 for what it sounds like), Would there still be 30 Million people using it?
Using Notes for just email is blasphemy. And of course it's not going to be as fast a text mode pine for email.
What I dont understand is all the criticism that/.'ers give non-linux apps about how buggy and slow and problematic they are, why do any of you even try to use linux?
As I have stated before...If you want to see Notes done right, go talk to Chrysler.
Just because you support something, doesn't mean that you have to use it. What surprises me more is that IBM is releasing a new version of Warp Server and they are switching to NT.
Sticking with the origional subject...You've just described notes. With all the basic email functions comes a scheduler, serial route memos, document management, cutomized applications, a web server, news server, and w/ r5 you can have a real time messaging system, and is completely standards based.
I speak highly of notes because it allowed me to set up an ecommerce (ssl) web server and start my own business online. I completely wrote the whole system (including the shopping cart) with absolutely no CGI, HTML, Perl, etc knowledge other than a tag here and there. All with less than 1yr of notes tinkering experience.
They'd still probably choose notes. Notes can do a lot more than exchange can do. You need to bolt together 5 different MS apps to be able to do what notes does. Notes powerful email system is such a small portion of what notes can do.
4.x was ugly, but R5 has done a 180 in terms of UI functionality. I'd think you linux guys would embrace notes. 1: They are developing a domino server for it, and 2: It one of the only products out there for which MS cannot compete. And dont say exchange. Exchange is NOT groupware.
For any doubts about the power of Notes, go talk to Chrysler.
>I guess a lot of us picked it up in school, but arrogance seems to be part of the UNIX tradition.
Yes it is...I am one who does not think UNIX is all that great, and the minute I say that, 2.34E23 people start flaming me. UNIX has a very steep learning curve, and a lot of us dont have the time to learn it. I'm sure it has it's place just like (cough) NT does, but I personally think that it is not for the desktop......yet.
Exchange is not groupware. It can emulate it a bit, but is extreamly limited in its function.
As for the UI. I can see how some of these linux people (geeks in the good sense) could misinterperate it's function. Notes is written for the Average user, and the last time I looked, the Average User has never even heard of Linux (until recently). Once a button has been clicked on on the desktop, the UI responsibility is up to the developer, not lotus.
I'd like to see exchange do half the stuff that notes does. Thats why Notes is one of the last products to have a larger marketshare than MS. We should all support Lotus, whether you like it or not.
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I am as enthusiastic about notes as most /.'ers are about linux. If there is one thing I (and a few others have stated during this discussion) have found, it is that you need to know notes really well to run a good system. This isn't a toy that you can play with for a week.
/. 100 times waiting to complain about something else. Notice that I started at 12am CST. Thats when I got off work, and I got up at 6am to do it all over again.
As for a lot of postings. It was well deserved. I haven't seen such blatent spreading of misinformation in a long time.
As a systems integrator, many problems are not caused by software but are easy to blame the software. I do it with MS all the time.
There aren't many problems if you can successfully scale a mountain of servers to support 100,000+ users.
As for being late to the discussion...i work! I can't spend all day hitting
And be prepared. I will be back when the next Notes discussion comes around. Just try to get
Heh, I bet if adobe ported to linux, it wouldn't be called "Jumping on the bandwagon"
This makes me sick
1: Paranoid
2: No one argues that the DB capabilities are not very strong (flat file). Rather that THEY HAVE ANY AT ALL! Show me a system where you can reprogram you're whole email system from scratch and maintain external DB connectivity.
3: My servers dont go down...and if they did go down that often, it wouldnt sell.
4: Running out of disk space has nothing to do with notes. That can happen on any platform. OR get more disk space. Are you an end user?
5: and you have full progmatic access to all the data. It can be easilly moved to whereever you want it. If it is done right, you never need to move it. Plus if you knew anything about the field level replication and the data store, you'd realize that there is not a standardized format that works with such an advanced feature.
Read a book already
>So Lotus has finally decided to "jump on the Linux bandwagon" has it?
/. It is truely sad how easilly this community has taken misinformation and twisted it around against LN/D. I wouldnt blame them if they didn't release it after all.
For the last time! This is OLD news. Here is the JANUARY Computerworld snippet that says they would be developing the 5.0 server for linux.
Linus Redux
>Lotus strikes me as a company very fond of heading in whatever direction the latest band-wagon might happen to be headed.
Read above statement. They were talking about it when everyone else did. Does this change your opinion?
>Recently, they dropped Unix support for all but the Domino server.
That would be because they are going to browser access. Only a couple of clients are being developed for DB Application Design!!! Seems to me that Lotus *IS* the forward thinking company that you say they are not.
>you can not win the game by allowing Microsoft to set the rules!
MS has never set the rules in this area. They have never gained ground on the installed base of notes. MS for once is clawing and scratching and still losing.
In fact, this information about a linux port was ON
You're little linux bandwagon is just a little chevette in an SUV world. Stop compaining.
Sorry, this is my 100th post on the subject, but...
/. out of Domino
>You'd never be able to get anything as good looking as
You must not know much about Domino because this is EXACLTY what it is good at, with a lot less programming too. This could be done with simple @ commands much like a simple spreadsheet. Plus you wouldn't have to mess with a backend SQL system either.
>your company will never be truly successful when you are following the hype instead of leading it.
Interesting thought...since it seems anyone interested in true groupware is trying to catch up with all the features available in LN/D.
>Your customer base has been begging for a linux port for YEARS
Take a class in business. Until recently, developing a port to linux wasn't worth the $$$ they would get from the 4 people who would actually buy it for linux.
Secondly, The origional post is old news anyway. The Linux port has been approved well before any of these box builders out there even though of selling PCs with linux preinstalled.
ACK! All you have to do is place the HTML files in the configured directory...
You dont have to put your pages IN notes.
As for the use of notes. 3 months is nothing when it comes to learning a new system. BUT...
The above web site, although a bit ugly (I am not a graphic artist) was done completely in notes with SSL and a fully functional shopping cart system. this was with NO knowledge of HTML, CGI, PERL, JAVA, JAVASCRIPT, ETC.
And it only took me 6 months to learn how to do that. And I wrote it all that way I wanted it be. No prepackaged crap that is out there.
On the other note, the other web site that also runs on this server was created with frontpage and ftp'd into the directory and it works fine.
>and second, there's not that many people who want to fool with it.
Ya you are right...30 million people is not many at all.
ROFL...You've never played with NDS have you?
Sooo many companies want NDS implemented in to their systems and products.
Go visit Provo, UT at novell's HQ and you wont believe what NDS can do. Austrailia's Telecom/Postal system also uses it. It's just amazing...
He said it comes down for maintenence.
I am currently on my first boot after installing R5 on NT, which was over a month ago. Previously, I was running 4.6x and it never crashed. Only took it down ever month or so for updates.
Come to think of it. My server has only crashed 1 time and that was my fault.
The only MS product running is the OS...I am using 3rd party apps for everything else.
The only reason that Windows (and now mac) have an actual client is for developing the applications for a web based system. Thats where the future is (unfortunatly) and thats how it's going to be. I dont think you'd have any luck getting them to release another client. R5 was made to eliminate the client.
>Linux *IS* compatible with Solaris
Then why doesnt Domino run on linux? It runs on Solaris.
They won't blame linux, they will tell the user to use the version that they developed it for.
They will blame the user.
If I try to use Office 2000 on Win3.1, MS would tell me the same thing.
I think the various distributions of linux is going to hurt linux's potential as more main stream applications are developed. Linux must become more standardized before it will ever be able to compete in the app server/workstation market.
>That is, when I am able to use it, due to poor setup
Well to start, this statement alone should discount all further statements against LN/D. Notes setup is very important.
>I am able to read my proprietarily stored email
Everything in notes is stored the same way. Even the server configuration files. I personally dont see a need to have to be able to read already downloaded email in multiple programs. Maybe if the server is down, but you dont need a server to read your mail if you keep a local copy of the database. Replication is LN/D most powerful feature.
>on which access depends on the uptime of the server (about 1.5 days)
I'll chalk this one up to the poor setup you talked about. My beta 1 test server never crashed that quickly.
>I can't go in using a decent emailer to read some of this email
Depending on the version, you can use any email program you like. Notes as far back as 4.5 i believe is MAPI compliant.
>I'd much rather use a bunch of smaller apps that do the individual parts better
So you like Micros~1. Bucket of bolts flying in close formation.
If it were really that bad (seemingly worse than Micro~1 for what it sounds like), Would there still be 30 Million people using it?
/.'ers give non-linux apps about how buggy and slow and problematic they are, why do any of you even try to use linux?
Using Notes for just email is blasphemy. And of course it's not going to be as fast a text mode pine for email.
What I dont understand is all the criticism that
As I have stated before...If you want to see Notes done right, go talk to Chrysler.
Tell em to send the licenses over my way... my customers seem to love it. I guess it all comes down to implementation.
It is amazing, however, how many people I have seen running the server on a workstation win95 machine with very little memory.
Seems people think its just another application. Oh well, there is still nothing out there that even comes close to the power of LN/D.
Give me a break. Everytime I've seen someone unhappy with Domino/Notes it was because of 1 or 2 reasons.
1: The admin was thrown in to running the system with little time to prepare. (No fault to him/her)
2: The applications are written by a beginner.
Although easy, LN/D need experienced people to develop and maintain the system..just like everything else.
Just because you support something, doesn't mean that you have to use it. What surprises me more is that IBM is releasing a new version of Warp Server and they are switching to NT.
Sticking with the origional subject...You've just described notes. With all the basic email functions comes a scheduler, serial route memos, document management, cutomized applications, a web server, news server, and w/ r5 you can have a real time messaging system, and is completely standards based.
I speak highly of notes because it allowed me to set up an ecommerce (ssl) web server and start my own business online. I completely wrote the whole system (including the shopping cart) with absolutely no CGI, HTML, Perl, etc knowledge other than a
tag here and there. All with less than 1yr of notes tinkering experience.
Micros~1 ROTFL!!!
They'd still probably choose notes. Notes can do a lot more than exchange can do. You need to bolt together 5 different MS apps to be able to do what notes does. Notes powerful email system is such a small portion of what notes can do.
4.x was ugly, but R5 has done a 180 in terms of UI functionality. I'd think you linux guys would embrace notes. 1: They are developing a domino server for it, and 2: It one of the only products out there for which MS cannot compete. And dont say exchange. Exchange is NOT groupware.
For any doubts about the power of Notes, go talk to Chrysler.
Agreed... Some of the Linux guys out there are starting to sound like the NT guys.
>I guess a lot of us picked it up in school, but arrogance seems to be part of the UNIX tradition.
Yes it is...I am one who does not think UNIX is all that great, and the minute I say that, 2.34E23 people start flaming me. UNIX has a very steep learning curve, and a lot of us dont have the time to learn it. I'm sure it has it's place just like (cough) NT does, but I personally think that it is not for the desktop......yet.
I'm getting ready to take flame bullets but....
Exchange is not groupware. It can emulate it a bit, but is extreamly limited in its function.
As for the UI. I can see how some of these linux people (geeks in the good sense) could misinterperate it's function. Notes is written for the Average user, and the last time I looked, the Average User has never even heard of Linux (until recently). Once a button has been clicked on on the desktop, the UI responsibility is up to the developer, not lotus.
I'd like to see exchange do half the stuff that notes does. Thats why Notes is one of the last products to have a larger marketshare than MS. We should all support Lotus, whether you like it or not.