They managed 2 make Left 4 dead 1 a legend within 3 days. Don't 4get that it was a 1derful, remarkable 6ess. A lot of zombies 8 brainz. It's 4 this reason that Left 4 dead 2 is being pushed out 2 months after Left 4 Dead 1 reached market sa2ration. Maybe they'll throw you a reb8 if you bought Left 4 Dead 1, but don't expect them 2 just hand it over to every1.
So while you're at work you're supposed to suspend all web-related activity? Including on breaks? In any modern company, they realize that the internet, and connectivity, are facts of life -- they're just as important as letting your employees talk about their cats (or whatever) over the cubicle wall. If you don't let your employees socialize at all, everyone loses, since they'll be as motivated as inanimate objects (and, statistically, this is well known).
So are you supposed to bring your own computer with you to work?
Also, you're right, it's not your network, it's the company's network, which means that the company's security is being compromised by using IE6. If something you did, with IE6, made your company vulnerable to an attack, and this action is traced back to you, who do you think will be held accountable?
Not just companies, countries too. Like Israel and South Korea. These stats are from September last year, but "The Facts"(pun?) haven't changed much since. Far too many websites are coded for IE, not standards.
Microsoft Web Developer: What do you give for the over/under on number of posts?
Microsoft Web Admin: 300
Microsoft Web Developer: I'll put $20 on the over.
Microsoft Web Admin: You're on.
I'll put $20 that whoever wrote that FUD-paganda really *did* make some bets with the co-workers to see how pissed off they could get certain websites/blogs. It's almost written as a test balloon to see if they can get away with it.
Oh, and the MS Web Developer is going to win by a landslide.
Your CTO or equivalent should be putting a stop to that, and if he is not, he is not doing his job.
It goes beyond "not doing your job" if you're forcing people to use IE6. You're endangering their privacy, that company's privacy, and opening up the infrastructure to countless attacks. I'd replace "not doing your job" with "reckless endangerment". When you file your lawsuit, I mean.
Well, you'd e able to tell a few things were different. For example you'd be able to keep around 50 tabs open without the need for a quantum computer. Also, 80% of the content will render faster, by a factor of 5. If there's considerable use of JavaScript the page will be far more responsive, and you'll probably get features you don't see normally (because functionality is watered-down for IE, on many/most web-apps).
There's quite a bit of truth in that if(IE){}else{} statement: if(ie){
Preload 50k of non-standard JavaScript in order to translate correct standards implementation into msie-lingo }else{
Simply run script. }
You've gotta love it that they keep pushing the word "Fact" into their FUD.
This is pathetic and infuriating at the same time, which is common with MS propaganda. As I went over the list (as well as the mythbusting bit) I laughed in a "black humor" sort of way -- it reads like a parody, kind of like something you'd read on TheOnion.
Isn't it nice that as long as you keep things just ambiguous enough, you can use the word "FACT" in an ad to state just about anything. At some point, if the law doesn't intervene, they will start positioning Google as the "Dark Corporation that spies on you", and Apple as a religious cult. I'm pretty sure they could do that now and they'd be un-sue-able.
Well, there's AIR. You can use just web-standards to develop for it. And you have the benefit of WebKit plus their JavaScipt engine, which I think is a version of Tamarin. On the free side, there's Titanium, and Prism. But these are site-specific-browsers. If you meant something that you could package into a gzip/tar and send over the web, I think you're left with the usual feature-sniffing and mass-o-files stuff that we all know and "love"...
You can make plugins for specific tasks, like media or paste-in bytecode, but you can't use this same tactic to improve the underpinnings. How do you speed up JavaScript? How do you add support for CSS3 features?
Unless you mean a "plugin" that, in effect, kidnaps the entire browser. If that's the case, sign me up.
I'm actually staring at the screen and trying to think of what to "say". Have you just met Microsoft? They've had.Net code running on BSD since ~2002, and I'm *not* talking about Mono. They've released plenty of code that runs "on the competition", while attacking both from the legal *and* the PR fronts. It's all a messed up game for them, they're stalling for as long as they can. They'll help you along with your science project and then sue you for using their patents in it. If we haven't learned this by now, I suppose we never will.
Verbose? Maybe. Hard to read? What do you consider easy to read?
Actually, I seems to me that those two properties conflict somewhat. For example, Perl is terse, and for the most part reads like machine code. The most gruesome monster I can think of is C++.Net, which, indeed, is both extraordinarily verbose and looks like a maniac typed it.
But what do you think "reads" well, disregarding everything else? (If I'd had to guess I'd say you're a fan of either Python or some version of Lisp?)
I could easily whip up a dozen articles on how many-a-programmer has fallen in love with JavaScript. In fact, I could give you articles of that nature for any language. Ditto for articles about how language X sucks. Whatever language/tools you like, I'll find you people who hate them.
I agree that it would be *nice* to be able to program using any language you wanted, but it's not the case at the moment (nor for the foreseeable future). I switched from C++ (primarily) to JavaScript/Python, originally not because I *wanted* to, but because I *had* to. I now see the good parts in both, but I can't force my opinions upon you. The point is: If you can't adapt, you're going to have a big problem finding work soon, at least if you want to program *inside* the browser.
(I'd mention that you can use Java/GWT, but from an earlier comment, I take it that won't solve the problem)
Ok, you've been around for a while. I'm going to infer, from that statement, that you have experience in numerous languages? And, from previous statements, that you don't like parenthesis "goo", so that means C, C++, Objective C, Java, Lisp (man, you must hate lisp...) or any derivatives of the above? What does that leave us with? I guess Python is parenthesis-less, and Perl has less parenthesis. I guess you can do Ruby with relatively few, but you'll still need them.
Seriously, which specific language were you thinking of for programming XML/SGML and the DOM?
Sometimes it really sucks you can't contribute to a discussion and mod it. I reached your post only after posting my rants. You hit the nail on the head: People are confusing Graphic Designers with Developers. Even if canvas gave you 5 times the capabilities of Flash, it won't do the trick until there's an authoring environment -- an end-user application that's designed to be used by graphic designers. There are only so many polymaths around who can code and do visual design. Programmers write tools for, primarily, programmers. Thus the abundance of IDEs and coding tool stacks. It takes an effort, and a team of people with varied skillsets to create a software program that's meant to do, for example, animation.
I can only hope that the guys that are doing Inkscape will consider something along these lines.
As an aside: Does anyone remember how they pushed SVG before they bought out Macromedia? They even made a decent player, which you can still get here. Notice the first line on the page: "Please note that Adobe has announced that it will discontinue support for Adobe SVG Viewer on January 1, 2009."... Who needs SVG after you own Flash?
Screw Flash. Screw Acrobat. Screw Silverlight. On the web, the most puritan Free Software advocates are right: If it's proprietary, don't download. Don't install. You've just giving them the power to take away your choices.
The assumption that the IE team is motivated to compete with other browsers on the grounds of features and compatibility is naive. MS if pushing Silverlight through every vector they can think of. They like things the way they are: proprietary. This is the same company that makes Visual Studio, along with compilers for a dozen languages. Do you *really* think they'd have a problem developing a JavaScript engine to compete with V8? Or implement a few additional CSS rules? How about Canvas?
As long as the numbers of IE usage remain where they are, they are not compelled to push this route of technology. They like things the way they are now.
I have to develop cross-browser apps regularly, so I can attest that Opera is a breath of fresh air in terms of standards/feature support.
But for the exact reason you cited, I don't use Opera. It's a constant reminder that the web is a complete wreck. I'll often give people examples of how huge websites bite it when you load them on Opera. So in the end what have you gained? Are you suffering for a cause? Do you want to constantly reminded that most "web developers" don't know there is a standard?
I prefer less pain in all things. I use Firefox for most sites, and sometimes Chrome for sites that I know are highly compliant. I could make things more painful and install one of the many X/HTML validation plugins in Firefox and set it to always sound an alarm when there's a mistake, but this seems counter-productive, when I'm trying to consume content.
I agree overall, although with one exception: Grandma? Are you going to explain to Grandma what P2P is? Or how to server content from her computer? Would that be before or after you explain to her the finer points of the TCP/IP stack?
Every time someone wants to relay that something is "too geeky for normal people", they bring up Grandma. Leave Grandma alone.
Slashdot Mirror
They managed 2 make Left 4 dead 1 a legend within 3 days. Don't 4get that it was a 1derful, remarkable 6ess. A lot of zombies 8 brainz. It's 4 this reason that Left 4 dead 2 is being pushed out 2 months after Left 4 Dead 1 reached market sa2ration. Maybe they'll throw you a reb8 if you bought Left 4 Dead 1, but don't expect them 2 just hand it over to every1.
So while you're at work you're supposed to suspend all web-related activity? Including on breaks? In any modern company, they realize that the internet, and connectivity, are facts of life -- they're just as important as letting your employees talk about their cats (or whatever) over the cubicle wall. If you don't let your employees socialize at all, everyone loses, since they'll be as motivated as inanimate objects (and, statistically, this is well known).
So are you supposed to bring your own computer with you to work?
Also, you're right, it's not your network, it's the company's network, which means that the company's security is being compromised by using IE6. If something you did, with IE6, made your company vulnerable to an attack, and this action is traced back to you, who do you think will be held accountable?
Not just companies, countries too. Like Israel and South Korea. These stats are from September last year, but "The Facts"(pun?) haven't changed much since. Far too many websites are coded for IE, not standards.
Microsoft Web Developer: What do you give for the over/under on number of posts?
Microsoft Web Admin: 300
Microsoft Web Developer: I'll put $20 on the over.
Microsoft Web Admin: You're on.
I'll put $20 that whoever wrote that FUD-paganda really *did* make some bets with the co-workers to see how pissed off they could get certain websites/blogs. It's almost written as a test balloon to see if they can get away with it.
Oh, and the MS Web Developer is going to win by a landslide.
... you keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Ditto for "Security" and "Standards".
To rephrase, in msie "Manageability" == "Oppression".
To be fair (ugh, must I...), the above equation is true for the majority of large corporation, MS is just facilitating that "need".
Your CTO or equivalent should be putting a stop to that, and if he is not, he is not doing his job.
It goes beyond "not doing your job" if you're forcing people to use IE6. You're endangering their privacy, that company's privacy, and opening up the infrastructure to countless attacks. I'd replace "not doing your job" with "reckless endangerment". When you file your lawsuit, I mean.
Well, you'd e able to tell a few things were different. For example you'd be able to keep around 50 tabs open without the need for a quantum computer. Also, 80% of the content will render faster, by a factor of 5. If there's considerable use of JavaScript the page will be far more responsive, and you'll probably get features you don't see normally (because functionality is watered-down for IE, on many/most web-apps).
There's quite a bit of truth in that if(IE){}else{} statement:
if(ie){
Preload 50k of non-standard JavaScript in order to translate correct standards implementation into msie-lingo
}else{
Simply run script.
}
You've gotta love it that they keep pushing the word "Fact" into their FUD.
This is pathetic and infuriating at the same time, which is common with MS propaganda. As I went over the list (as well as the mythbusting bit) I laughed in a "black humor" sort of way -- it reads like a parody, kind of like something you'd read on TheOnion.
Isn't it nice that as long as you keep things just ambiguous enough, you can use the word "FACT" in an ad to state just about anything. At some point, if the law doesn't intervene, they will start positioning Google as the "Dark Corporation that spies on you", and Apple as a religious cult. I'm pretty sure they could do that now and they'd be un-sue-able.
Well, there's AIR. You can use just web-standards to develop for it. And you have the benefit of WebKit plus their JavaScipt engine, which I think is a version of Tamarin. On the free side, there's Titanium, and Prism. But these are site-specific-browsers. If you meant something that you could package into a gzip/tar and send over the web, I think you're left with the usual feature-sniffing and mass-o-files stuff that we all know and "love"...
You can make plugins for specific tasks, like media or paste-in bytecode, but you can't use this same tactic to improve the underpinnings. How do you speed up JavaScript? How do you add support for CSS3 features?
Unless you mean a "plugin" that, in effect, kidnaps the entire browser. If that's the case, sign me up.
I'm actually staring at the screen and trying to think of what to "say". Have you just met Microsoft? They've had .Net code running on BSD since ~2002, and I'm *not* talking about Mono. They've released plenty of code that runs "on the competition", while attacking both from the legal *and* the PR fronts. It's all a messed up game for them, they're stalling for as long as they can. They'll help you along with your science project and then sue you for using their patents in it. If we haven't learned this by now, I suppose we never will.
Verbose? Maybe. Hard to read? What do you consider easy to read?
Actually, I seems to me that those two properties conflict somewhat. For example, Perl is terse, and for the most part reads like machine code. The most gruesome monster I can think of is C++.Net, which, indeed, is both extraordinarily verbose and looks like a maniac typed it.
But what do you think "reads" well, disregarding everything else? (If I'd had to guess I'd say you're a fan of either Python or some version of Lisp?)
I could easily whip up a dozen articles on how many-a-programmer has fallen in love with JavaScript. In fact, I could give you articles of that nature for any language. Ditto for articles about how language X sucks. Whatever language/tools you like, I'll find you people who hate them.
I agree that it would be *nice* to be able to program using any language you wanted, but it's not the case at the moment (nor for the foreseeable future). I switched from C++ (primarily) to JavaScript/Python, originally not because I *wanted* to, but because I *had* to. I now see the good parts in both, but I can't force my opinions upon you. The point is: If you can't adapt, you're going to have a big problem finding work soon, at least if you want to program *inside* the browser.
(I'd mention that you can use Java/GWT, but from an earlier comment, I take it that won't solve the problem)
Ok, you've been around for a while. I'm going to infer, from that statement, that you have experience in numerous languages? And, from previous statements, that you don't like parenthesis "goo", so that means C, C++, Objective C, Java, Lisp (man, you must hate lisp...) or any derivatives of the above? What does that leave us with? I guess Python is parenthesis-less, and Perl has less parenthesis. I guess you can do Ruby with relatively few, but you'll still need them.
Seriously, which specific language were you thinking of for programming XML/SGML and the DOM?
Sometimes it really sucks you can't contribute to a discussion and mod it. I reached your post only after posting my rants. You hit the nail on the head: People are confusing Graphic Designers with Developers. Even if canvas gave you 5 times the capabilities of Flash, it won't do the trick until there's an authoring environment -- an end-user application that's designed to be used by graphic designers. There are only so many polymaths around who can code and do visual design. Programmers write tools for, primarily, programmers. Thus the abundance of IDEs and coding tool stacks. It takes an effort, and a team of people with varied skillsets to create a software program that's meant to do, for example, animation.
I can only hope that the guys that are doing Inkscape will consider something along these lines.
As an aside: Does anyone remember how they pushed SVG before they bought out Macromedia? They even made a decent player, which you can still get here. Notice the first line on the page: "Please note that Adobe has announced that it will discontinue support for Adobe SVG Viewer on January 1, 2009."... Who needs SVG after you own Flash?
Screw Flash. Screw Acrobat. Screw Silverlight. On the web, the most puritan Free Software advocates are right: If it's proprietary, don't download. Don't install. You've just giving them the power to take away your choices.
The assumption that the IE team is motivated to compete with other browsers on the grounds of features and compatibility is naive. MS if pushing Silverlight through every vector they can think of. They like things the way they are: proprietary. This is the same company that makes Visual Studio, along with compilers for a dozen languages. Do you *really* think they'd have a problem developing a JavaScript engine to compete with V8? Or implement a few additional CSS rules? How about Canvas?
As long as the numbers of IE usage remain where they are, they are not compelled to push this route of technology. They like things the way they are now.
Oh man, do I have a must-see film for you!
(actually it's a two-part miniseries, even better!)
let's blow earth things
There are plenty of "earth things being blown", even as we speak. Obviously on one visiting /. would know this.
Nah, most likely a ring of debris. "Look honey! The sun is shining through the pebbles!"
I have to develop cross-browser apps regularly, so I can attest that Opera is a breath of fresh air in terms of standards/feature support.
But for the exact reason you cited, I don't use Opera. It's a constant reminder that the web is a complete wreck. I'll often give people examples of how huge websites bite it when you load them on Opera. So in the end what have you gained? Are you suffering for a cause? Do you want to constantly reminded that most "web developers" don't know there is a standard?
I prefer less pain in all things. I use Firefox for most sites, and sometimes Chrome for sites that I know are highly compliant. I could make things more painful and install one of the many X/HTML validation plugins in Firefox and set it to always sound an alarm when there's a mistake, but this seems counter-productive, when I'm trying to consume content.
I agree overall, although with one exception: Grandma? Are you going to explain to Grandma what P2P is? Or how to server content from her computer? Would that be before or after you explain to her the finer points of the TCP/IP stack?
Every time someone wants to relay that something is "too geeky for normal people", they bring up Grandma. Leave Grandma alone.
They're all UNITED, though!
Taking into account spelling errors, some of them are UNTIED.
Possibly even more wrong is that your mind associated "cold one" with "necrophilia". Dude.