That being said I believe their should be a level of education for all citizens. But honestly generic BA's are worth about as much as the paper they are printed on. College is almost useless in terms of actual education unless you're pursuing a specialized profession (medicine, law, engineering, etc.). If you cant learn the garbage you get in most programs before you leave high school, then college is little more than a massive tax on stupid.
That's academia at it's finest. They will take the state and federal funds but put preference on the out-of-state or international students. And then they look down their nose at anyone that's not "enlightened" by their institutions. They push policies that ensure their power and authority and deride the unwashed masses who havent yet lost their common sense.
My investments are not in stocks. I believe in supporting my local economy rather than investors or major corporations. Not that I begrudge anyone who does, I just choose not to.
If what I do with my wealth doesnt matter, then why are we having this conversation....
I do not whine when my suppliers raise their prices. They do so either out of necessity (because of their costs) or because they believe they have a higher quality of service than their competitors. It's up to me to decide if the latter is true or find a new supplier. I must reconcile with myself that they have a business, and like me they have every right to whatever profit from it the market will bare. Likewise, I do not whine about paying taxes. I understand and respect the lawful purpose of government and that it is necessary. I argue the logic of people who are never satisfied with what my tax rate is or how deeply the government becomes embedded in every single aspect of my life and that of my family.
Do you have the foggiest idea how many business are forced to hire their own security forces? Or how much they spend on security systems, or other prevention systems like fences, locks, security glass for windows, etc? Do you know how much that drives down the profits?.... Even though they pay exponentially more dollars in taxes than your average citizen they must subsidize their security because they know full well that the police (that they pay for in taxes) will not be reacting to a crime against them quickly enough to prevent it, nor succeed in identifying the culprits an appreciable portion of the time.
That's just one example of the only partially true notion that society provided and provides all of the base for the businesses to function. There's certainly some truth in it, but not nearly as much as you'd like to think. It's very common for a business to be required to build, rebuild or expand roads around their business in order to obtain the required permits from the city or county so that their business can be opened. They are often required to fund egresses or traffic lights, or crosswalks, or sideways. Sometimes its as crazy as being required to build a new playground at the closest school or erect a statue at the local firehouse or something just to grease the skids on permits.
There's a case here right now where 7 businesses on one side of a highway are being told that they must pay for rebuilding and expanding a multi-million dollar overpass that connects to the town on the other side. The logic is that the businesses are the reason for the congestion on the overpass. The reality is that the overpass is one of 3 exits from the highway that are the only 3 arteries from the highway into the town of 250,000. The overpass is used by thousands of commuters daily who get on the highway and go to work in other towns. The congestion doesn't have a damn thing to do with those 7 businesses (none of which services more than 20 people a day), but the city council is peddling the same kind of crap you are about the evil businesses soaking up resources and trying to milk them for the funds rather than using the taxes those companies and those thousands of commuters pay. But they managed to find the funds for a $7million dollar bike trail that sees about 50 bicycles a week.....
This kind of extortion and manipulation isnt remotely new, and it's the same kind of crap that people like me already chalk up to "the cost of doing business" that people like you are completely clueless on. We complain some, yes. But obviously not that loudly because it's a foreign concept to almost anyone that doesn't own a business. The volume of the "pay your fair share" bitching sure isnt reduced over time though.
I do. I contribute a higher percentage of finances to the economy already. Turns out that the President's claims about the tax rates are complete horseshit (shocker).
Not to mention that I do this for my business, my personal income, and again on my investments.
So what's another $30,000 this year going to matter?
How about next year?
How about the year after that?
When is enough, enough? When will you feel that I have contributed my "fair share"?
Regardless, for every [insert arbitrary number] that shouldnt matter that you say is fair for me to add, there's a decent probability that I don't make an investment in something (helping a business who hires people expand?), or don't make some luxury purchase (which supports a business and jobs), or contribute to a charity. You assume I give nothing extra to the community, and you again assume that it is more appropriate for government to choose where that extra contribution goes....
Would there be people that worked 15 hours a day, 7 days a week, and were perfectly happy recieving exactly the same rewards as those who work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week? Probably, but they'd be in the vast minority. There'd be a hell of a lot more people who were lazy, and did as little as possible in as few hours as possible because their reward remained a constant regardless.
You can wish for people to want to do the right thing, but you assume that people actually care. There are millions who will take everything and provide nothing if given any oppurtunity to.
And yes, I fully anticipate the "Republicans are the ones that want to take and give nothing in taxes" remarks. It's a lie, and anyone being honest accepts that.
And only in America can someone twist "I want to keep my family home which I inherited, or sell it and keep the majority of the money instead of lose it all because of overburdensome taxes" into "screw everyone else, I want to giggle as the country burns as a result of my greed".
Is your position so shallow that you have to be that dishonest to argue it?
You didnt show why at all. You made a statement and expected me to accept it as fact. I know you wish that I'd just take what you say as gospel, but the facts say otherwise.
Unfortunately for your arguments the fact checks are coming in quickly today on the "Buffett Rule". Seems that the arguments that the rich are being taxed less than the low or middle class is complete horseshit. This marks one of the very few times in the last decade that the reporting groups on the left and the right are in agreement, with this data being discussed on a myriad of programs last night.
And you manipulate the conversation by attempting to label anyone the "idle rich". Those who have amassed their fortunes have sacrficed more and commited more than you are probably capable.
Bill Gates will beg to differ. As would Steve Jobs, or Warren Buffett. In fact, of the wealthiest Americans the majority built their own fortunes. And those people are responsible for tens of thousands of jobs.
So your logic then, is that I should continue to invest myself, my time, my money and my effort into businesses that employ people and pump money into the economy with smaller and smaller returns on that investment and feel fulfilled in the knowledge that what I've done is enrich those who have never risked anything?
1) The tax rate in China is meaningless because (a) you cant run a business at all without government clearance and all the fees associated, and (b) because China manipulates its currency distorting any attempts at economic evaluations.
2) The workers are paid little more than slave wages, and China should be brough before the UN for crimes against their citizens.
3) "China's government directly owns industries, including farms and factories".... And because of it they can tell every citizen to shut up and take it. Who else are they going to work for or get a wage from?
4) "Coporate Anarchy" is a contradiction. Capatilism and corporations rely on stability and predictability. Anarchy is the anthesis of stability. Ackward.....
5) There's nothing that a Democrat wont say about the benefits of a communist or socialist system while trying desperately not to use either title, because any rational person can show how both systems have historically led to nothing but mass death and oppression.
6) I'm not a Republican; Registered Independent.
Thats a horseshit arguement. You might as well say, "Do you think it's better that the wealthy pay more? Or should we all eat babies instead?"
The burden is almost entirely on the wealthiest already with 70% of the taxes being paid by the highest 10% of earners. There is no possible argument to suggest that the middle class is the most taxed.
That being said, I believe the middle class to be highly over-taxed, but that's due to governement spending that is completely out of control on entitlements, pet projects and waste.
If I put in more effort than is my fair share, why have I not earned the right to claim a greater profit?
I'm pretty tired of putting in all the extra hours and all the extra stress to be told I should feel guilty about getting a bigger paycheck. Particularly when my extra hours and stress enable others to earn a paycheck they might not otherwise get at all.
Ok, let's shoot for the middle-ground then. If every person is gauranteed to get the medium reward regardless of their level of effort, they will strive for the medium output.
We're excatly on point, and its a point that you brought to the table.
Well, then it's great that nobody is saying anything like this. The specific proposal from Obama is that millionaires should be the same rate as the middle class. This is done by changing capital gains tax to match income tax.
Put aside all of the rest of the rhetoric and tell me how that one, specific suggestion isn't a good idea.
You wanted to know how the proposed legislation could possibly have a negative impact. I gave you a pointed argument. You inherit your family's home, and because of taxes you can neither keep it nor sell it and retain any appreciable value from it. I fail to see how that is a benefit to society, other than to say that you have too much (your birthright) and the government is going to take it and give the value to others.
I had nothing to fall back on. Nothing. My family was absent, and my friends were drunks. I saved up $150 for an electronics assembly class. That's how I got out of pizza and bars. When I failed, I went back to pizza and bars until I saved enough to try something else.
Again, you can either whine about your situation, or you can do what it takes to change it. I chose the latter, and I have limited patience for those to continue to do the former. I sure as hell dont think anyone is incapable of improving their lot in life, and I dont see why I need to make sure they never have to.
You are also being asked to pay back to a system that has given you the opportunity for the success you enjoyed: one that created infrastructure projects such as the interstate highway system, the internet, and a lot of higher education using marginal tax rates which historically have been much higher than those at the present. Your attitude is worse than "may be the best man win," it's "I got mine, screw you."
I wasnt "given" anything. I started from nothing after working for a decade as a pizza delivery guy and waiter. Needles to say I was high risk and no bank would look at me.
I don't have a degree. I went back to school about 4 years ago to finaly get one and dropped out after 3 years when I realized what a complete sham the "higher education" system is. Unless you're going into a specialized profession like engineering or medicine then college is a complete joke. I spent a god-awful amount of money to learn nothing I hadnt already gotten from high school or taught myself.
I failed twice in business before this success.
The point is, you can bitch and moan all day about what isn't given to you (as you obviously believe is the natural order for those that succeed). Or you can decide you're going to do what is necessary and commit to success. It wasnt pleasant, and it wasnt easy. But I can now have some comfort after having put forth the investment in myself. Unless your argument is that there are too many stupid people who just arent capable of making that choice (which I dont happen to believe in the slightest) then you have no arguement.
Ah, gotcha. The counter-argument is of course that if everyone went home with exactly the same every day, regardless of how hard they worked or how in-demand the fruits of their labor was, then everyone would obviously strive for perfection in all they do.
Here's a scenario for you:
You grandmother dies (probably because evil capitalists sold her kidneys on the black market or something). She leaves you the family home; a beautiful Victorian in downtown San Fransico. You sell it because there's no way you can afford the $45,000 yearly taxes on it. Guess what. That income from that sale is Capital Gains.
You'll be lucky to pay the accountant fees from the exchange.
By by family home, and you're left a tiny fraction of its worth.
It certainly isnt convenient when someone lists all the things they are taxed on is it. Unfortunately those are the realities of being a business owner. In fact, those are a subset of them. I didn't go into training costs (which are taxed) or insurance costs (which are taxed) or accountant fees (which are taxed), or a dozen other things.
It's easy enough for a person thats never risked it all or personally invested themselves in a venture to believe that these "rich" people are just soaking the world of it's wealth and abusing the poor workers. But the reality is that people who dont actually own a business dont have the first fucking clue of all the bullshit that goes along with it. You don't hear people complaining about it much because it's accepted as a part of the deal. You want to succeed, you pay your dues. But what's hapenning now is that people who are paying their dues are being made out to be pirates who pay nothing and should be required to pay nearly everything.
State / Federal Income Taxes: (state only if applicable)
I pay these taxes for myself on what I earn.
I pay these AGAIN for all those I employ.
I pay these a THIRD time for every dollar the business earns, regardless of whether it's paid out to any individual. I pay if I spend it, and I pay if I save it.
Sales Tax:
I pay these taxes for myself for all necessary and luxurie goods I purchase myself from my personal income.
I pay these on all goods I purchase for use or resale for my business.
I pay these all a THIRD time for all goods and services I sell as a part of my business.
Property Tax:
I pay my personal property tax on my house.
I pay property tax also on that of my business, and every building supporting it.
For every $300 you're taxed on at the grocery store I'm taxed on $5000. You don't want to acknowledge that for every one tax you pay out in the above categories I pay out 2, sometimes 3, sometimes more, and I do it on scale that you cant allow to be spoken because your argument crumbles. I know this based on my personal expenses and those of my employees. You don't want to talk about that though, because it erodes your arguments in seconds.
I should fully invest myself in my business, and if I should become successful I should shut up and pay all the taxes I pay now because that's a good deal. I should further pay much more in taxes so that people other than myself may have a tax "free ride".
I did, and I do. I'm a business owner, and employer. I put my own ass on the line, and now I'm being told that I should give almost all of what I make in large part to support those that never tried.
Slashdot Mirror
Encouragement is not assurance.
That being said I believe their should be a level of education for all citizens. But honestly generic BA's are worth about as much as the paper they are printed on. College is almost useless in terms of actual education unless you're pursuing a specialized profession (medicine, law, engineering, etc.). If you cant learn the garbage you get in most programs before you leave high school, then college is little more than a massive tax on stupid.
That's academia at it's finest. They will take the state and federal funds but put preference on the out-of-state or international students. And then they look down their nose at anyone that's not "enlightened" by their institutions. They push policies that ensure their power and authority and deride the unwashed masses who havent yet lost their common sense.
My investments are not in stocks. I believe in supporting my local economy rather than investors or major corporations. Not that I begrudge anyone who does, I just choose not to.
If what I do with my wealth doesnt matter, then why are we having this conversation....
I do not whine when my suppliers raise their prices. They do so either out of necessity (because of their costs) or because they believe they have a higher quality of service than their competitors. It's up to me to decide if the latter is true or find a new supplier. I must reconcile with myself that they have a business, and like me they have every right to whatever profit from it the market will bare. Likewise, I do not whine about paying taxes. I understand and respect the lawful purpose of government and that it is necessary. I argue the logic of people who are never satisfied with what my tax rate is or how deeply the government becomes embedded in every single aspect of my life and that of my family.
Do you have the foggiest idea how many business are forced to hire their own security forces? Or how much they spend on security systems, or other prevention systems like fences, locks, security glass for windows, etc? Do you know how much that drives down the profits?.... Even though they pay exponentially more dollars in taxes than your average citizen they must subsidize their security because they know full well that the police (that they pay for in taxes) will not be reacting to a crime against them quickly enough to prevent it, nor succeed in identifying the culprits an appreciable portion of the time.
That's just one example of the only partially true notion that society provided and provides all of the base for the businesses to function. There's certainly some truth in it, but not nearly as much as you'd like to think. It's very common for a business to be required to build, rebuild or expand roads around their business in order to obtain the required permits from the city or county so that their business can be opened. They are often required to fund egresses or traffic lights, or crosswalks, or sideways. Sometimes its as crazy as being required to build a new playground at the closest school or erect a statue at the local firehouse or something just to grease the skids on permits.
There's a case here right now where 7 businesses on one side of a highway are being told that they must pay for rebuilding and expanding a multi-million dollar overpass that connects to the town on the other side. The logic is that the businesses are the reason for the congestion on the overpass. The reality is that the overpass is one of 3 exits from the highway that are the only 3 arteries from the highway into the town of 250,000. The overpass is used by thousands of commuters daily who get on the highway and go to work in other towns. The congestion doesn't have a damn thing to do with those 7 businesses (none of which services more than 20 people a day), but the city council is peddling the same kind of crap you are about the evil businesses soaking up resources and trying to milk them for the funds rather than using the taxes those companies and those thousands of commuters pay. But they managed to find the funds for a $7million dollar bike trail that sees about 50 bicycles a week.....
This kind of extortion and manipulation isnt remotely new, and it's the same kind of crap that people like me already chalk up to "the cost of doing business" that people like you are completely clueless on. We complain some, yes. But obviously not that loudly because it's a foreign concept to almost anyone that doesn't own a business. The volume of the "pay your fair share" bitching sure isnt reduced over time though.
I do. I contribute a higher percentage of finances to the economy already. Turns out that the President's claims about the tax rates are complete horseshit (shocker).
http://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-rich-taxed-less-secretaries-070642868.html
Not to mention that I do this for my business, my personal income, and again on my investments.
So what's another $30,000 this year going to matter?
How about next year?
How about the year after that?
When is enough, enough? When will you feel that I have contributed my "fair share"?
Regardless, for every [insert arbitrary number] that shouldnt matter that you say is fair for me to add, there's a decent probability that I don't make an investment in something (helping a business who hires people expand?), or don't make some luxury purchase (which supports a business and jobs), or contribute to a charity. You assume I give nothing extra to the community, and you again assume that it is more appropriate for government to choose where that extra contribution goes....
Would there be people that worked 15 hours a day, 7 days a week, and were perfectly happy recieving exactly the same rewards as those who work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week? Probably, but they'd be in the vast minority. There'd be a hell of a lot more people who were lazy, and did as little as possible in as few hours as possible because their reward remained a constant regardless.
You can wish for people to want to do the right thing, but you assume that people actually care. There are millions who will take everything and provide nothing if given any oppurtunity to.
And yes, I fully anticipate the "Republicans are the ones that want to take and give nothing in taxes" remarks. It's a lie, and anyone being honest accepts that.
And only in America can someone twist "I want to keep my family home which I inherited, or sell it and keep the majority of the money instead of lose it all because of overburdensome taxes" into "screw everyone else, I want to giggle as the country burns as a result of my greed".
Is your position so shallow that you have to be that dishonest to argue it?
You didnt show why at all. You made a statement and expected me to accept it as fact. I know you wish that I'd just take what you say as gospel, but the facts say otherwise.
Unfortunately for your arguments the fact checks are coming in quickly today on the "Buffett Rule". Seems that the arguments that the rich are being taxed less than the low or middle class is complete horseshit. This marks one of the very few times in the last decade that the reporting groups on the left and the right are in agreement, with this data being discussed on a myriad of programs last night.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/20/news/economy/buffett_rule_milllonaires/index.htm?iid=RNM
http://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-rich-taxed-less-secretaries-070642868.html
And for fun I ran through the first 100 or so people on the Fortune 500 list. Almost all were self-made. More holes in your arguments...
How about the empoyer that chooses not to hire you because you posted on some forumn somewhere that you dislike the current president's policies.....
And you manipulate the conversation by attempting to label anyone the "idle rich". Those who have amassed their fortunes have sacrficed more and commited more than you are probably capable.
Bill Gates will beg to differ. As would Steve Jobs, or Warren Buffett. In fact, of the wealthiest Americans the majority built their own fortunes. And those people are responsible for tens of thousands of jobs.
So your logic then, is that I should continue to invest myself, my time, my money and my effort into businesses that employ people and pump money into the economy with smaller and smaller returns on that investment and feel fulfilled in the knowledge that what I've done is enrich those who have never risked anything?
1) The tax rate in China is meaningless because (a) you cant run a business at all without government clearance and all the fees associated, and (b) because China manipulates its currency distorting any attempts at economic evaluations.
2) The workers are paid little more than slave wages, and China should be brough before the UN for crimes against their citizens.
3) "China's government directly owns industries, including farms and factories".... And because of it they can tell every citizen to shut up and take it. Who else are they going to work for or get a wage from?
4) "Coporate Anarchy" is a contradiction. Capatilism and corporations rely on stability and predictability. Anarchy is the anthesis of stability. Ackward.....
5) There's nothing that a Democrat wont say about the benefits of a communist or socialist system while trying desperately not to use either title, because any rational person can show how both systems have historically led to nothing but mass death and oppression. 6) I'm not a Republican; Registered Independent.
Thats a horseshit arguement. You might as well say, "Do you think it's better that the wealthy pay more? Or should we all eat babies instead?"
The burden is almost entirely on the wealthiest already with 70% of the taxes being paid by the highest 10% of earners. There is no possible argument to suggest that the middle class is the most taxed.
That being said, I believe the middle class to be highly over-taxed, but that's due to governement spending that is completely out of control on entitlements, pet projects and waste.
If I put in more effort than is my fair share, why have I not earned the right to claim a greater profit?
I'm pretty tired of putting in all the extra hours and all the extra stress to be told I should feel guilty about getting a bigger paycheck. Particularly when my extra hours and stress enable others to earn a paycheck they might not otherwise get at all.
Ok, let's shoot for the middle-ground then. If every person is gauranteed to get the medium reward regardless of their level of effort, they will strive for the medium output.
A society of mediocrity does not inspire me.
Well, then it's great that nobody is saying anything like this. The specific proposal from Obama is that millionaires should be the same rate as the middle class. This is done by changing capital gains tax to match income tax.
Put aside all of the rest of the rhetoric and tell me how that one, specific suggestion isn't a good idea.
You wanted to know how the proposed legislation could possibly have a negative impact. I gave you a pointed argument. You inherit your family's home, and because of taxes you can neither keep it nor sell it and retain any appreciable value from it. I fail to see how that is a benefit to society, other than to say that you have too much (your birthright) and the government is going to take it and give the value to others.
I had nothing to fall back on. Nothing. My family was absent, and my friends were drunks. I saved up $150 for an electronics assembly class. That's how I got out of pizza and bars. When I failed, I went back to pizza and bars until I saved enough to try something else.
Again, you can either whine about your situation, or you can do what it takes to change it. I chose the latter, and I have limited patience for those to continue to do the former. I sure as hell dont think anyone is incapable of improving their lot in life, and I dont see why I need to make sure they never have to.
You are also being asked to pay back to a system that has given you the opportunity for the success you enjoyed: one that created infrastructure projects such as the interstate highway system, the internet, and a lot of higher education using marginal tax rates which historically have been much higher than those at the present. Your attitude is worse than "may be the best man win," it's "I got mine, screw you."
I wasnt "given" anything. I started from nothing after working for a decade as a pizza delivery guy and waiter. Needles to say I was high risk and no bank would look at me.
I don't have a degree. I went back to school about 4 years ago to finaly get one and dropped out after 3 years when I realized what a complete sham the "higher education" system is. Unless you're going into a specialized profession like engineering or medicine then college is a complete joke. I spent a god-awful amount of money to learn nothing I hadnt already gotten from high school or taught myself.
I failed twice in business before this success.
The point is, you can bitch and moan all day about what isn't given to you (as you obviously believe is the natural order for those that succeed). Or you can decide you're going to do what is necessary and commit to success. It wasnt pleasant, and it wasnt easy. But I can now have some comfort after having put forth the investment in myself. Unless your argument is that there are too many stupid people who just arent capable of making that choice (which I dont happen to believe in the slightest) then you have no arguement.
You got a house for nothing. How is that not entirely profit.
Ah, gotcha. The counter-argument is of course that if everyone went home with exactly the same every day, regardless of how hard they worked or how in-demand the fruits of their labor was, then everyone would obviously strive for perfection in all they do.
Here's a scenario for you:
You grandmother dies (probably because evil capitalists sold her kidneys on the black market or something). She leaves you the family home; a beautiful Victorian in downtown San Fransico. You sell it because there's no way you can afford the $45,000 yearly taxes on it. Guess what. That income from that sale is Capital Gains.
You'll be lucky to pay the accountant fees from the exchange.
By by family home, and you're left a tiny fraction of its worth.
That's a boldfaced lie and you know it.
It's easy enough for a person thats never risked it all or personally invested themselves in a venture to believe that these "rich" people are just soaking the world of it's wealth and abusing the poor workers. But the reality is that people who dont actually own a business dont have the first fucking clue of all the bullshit that goes along with it. You don't hear people complaining about it much because it's accepted as a part of the deal. You want to succeed, you pay your dues. But what's hapenning now is that people who are paying their dues are being made out to be pirates who pay nothing and should be required to pay nearly everything.
State / Federal Income Taxes: (state only if applicable)
I pay these taxes for myself on what I earn.
I pay these AGAIN for all those I employ.
I pay these a THIRD time for every dollar the business earns, regardless of whether it's paid out to any individual. I pay if I spend it, and I pay if I save it.
Sales Tax:
I pay these taxes for myself for all necessary and luxurie goods I purchase myself from my personal income.
I pay these on all goods I purchase for use or resale for my business.
I pay these all a THIRD time for all goods and services I sell as a part of my business.
Property Tax:
I pay my personal property tax on my house.
I pay property tax also on that of my business, and every building supporting it.
For every $300 you're taxed on at the grocery store I'm taxed on $5000. You don't want to acknowledge that for every one tax you pay out in the above categories I pay out 2, sometimes 3, sometimes more, and I do it on scale that you cant allow to be spoken because your argument crumbles. I know this based on my personal expenses and those of my employees. You don't want to talk about that though, because it erodes your arguments in seconds.
The irony is poetic.
I should fully invest myself in my business, and if I should become successful I should shut up and pay all the taxes I pay now because that's a good deal. I should further pay much more in taxes so that people other than myself may have a tax "free ride".
I did, and I do. I'm a business owner, and employer. I put my own ass on the line, and now I'm being told that I should give almost all of what I make in large part to support those that never tried.