:) All we need is RFID tags in all the food we buy and this can keep track of what you put in and take out (and don't put back), so it knows what you need.
Imagine being at the store and being able to ask it remotely, "hey, do we have milk?"
Actually, most of that software is bundled not because of demand for some crappy application, but because software vendor paid the PC vendor to include it in their build.
People like cheaper stuff, the above allows the computer to be cheaper.
People really don't care what OS is on their computer, as long as it pre-installed and works the way they know. It could be QNX or plan9 or anything else, as long as they are able to to the things they know how to do.
^ This...
Windows has been around for over a generation now, MS has been the OS supplier for nearly 2 generations now...
People know it, people use it, people are happy enough with it.
Changing is time consuming and hard, people don't want to change that much.
MS made a huge mistake being late to the phone and tablet business, Apple and Google own that space now.
Because the monopoly is already sustained when someone buys the system, and therefore is forced to pay the Tax. Thats the Idea.
Two flaws with this point.
1. The number of people who will actually request a refund and removal of Windows is tiny.
2. The amount of money removed from Microsoft is also tiny, thus not affecting the desktop OS market.
The entire premise is that if only MS was pushed aside, then Windows would lose its marketshare. The flaw with this idea is that there isn't anything else to take its place. You have OS X with about 6% marketshare, and that won't change much due to the price of Macs.
Linux? Are you kidding? The "year of the Linux desktop" isn't coming...
Most consumers aren't even aware of options (Linux). They see Windows as an integral part of the PC platform.
For desktop PCs, it is...
Other than OS X on the Mac, Windows *IS* the PC platform.
Linux on the desktop is a rounding error and is likely to always be so.
It isn't a technical thing, Linux has long since been "good enough".
But so has Windows...:)
I first installed Linux in 1994, since then I've used many flavors of it. It sure has some nice features over Windows, I'll grant you that. I've run in on more than one server.
On the desktop? Yea, not gonna happen for the mass market. Companies like Red Hat tried that a decade or more ago, as did others... the market wasn't interested then, it isn't interested now.
The iPad is FAR more of a threat than Linux ever was...
MS does indeed charge for Windows. Dell then collects money for installing "shovelware" on the computer from third party companies.
No Windows, no Windows cost, but no income from shovelware either.
So the net cost may well come out even.
Example:
Computer A:
Windows included, price to consumer $500 Bill of Materials: $400 for hardware, $50 for Windows, $-50 credit for installing shovelware from third parties, $100 profit for computer company.
Computer B:
No OS included, price to consumer $500 Bill of Materials: $400 for hardware, $100 profit for computer company
We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I think you're simply wrong.
But you're welcome to your point of view.:)
--------------
Let me put it another way... There really are only 3 modern desktop OS.
Windows OS X Linux
Some people indeed would be happy with OS X, except it is WAY too expensive for what you get for most people.
Linux? Are you kidding? The average customer is NOT interested in Linux. It has been tried... Red Hat and others have been trying for nearly 20 years to get Linux on the desktop...
MS isn't preventing people from selling computers with Linux on it... PEOPLE DO NOT WANT LINUX ON THEIR DESKTOP.
Or simply require the product key to be purchased separately and ship an unactivated copy of Windows on the computer.
Sure, lets have the government impose a PITA requirement that the general public isn't asking for, all the while getting into meddling with private business matters.
Great idea!
Whatever happened to "let the free market work it out"?
Dell SELLS multiple computers without Windows and has for years. What is the problem?
I don't think I could convince very many people (at least, not non-techies) that my dishwasher, refrigerator, and washing machine should be referred to as "computers".
:) Have you SEEN some of the new dishwashers and refrigerators?
This one clearly has a computer in it...:) touch screen and all... You can listen to Pandora on it, you can check the news and weather, it has wi-fi built in...
The number of buyers who would actually want to install an alternative OS (or be able to) is tiny.
^ This... So many geeks keep thinking that the "year of the Linux desktop" is just around the corner with the mass hords of consumers just waiting to be free of Microsoft and Windows.
Except... they aren't... and Linux isn't coming to the desktop... frankly, probably never...
My wife wants a computer that turns on and works. My Mom wants a computer that turns on and works.
Neither of them care if the computer is $600 or $650, so long as the above is true.
A computer for $650 that comes with Windows, runs anything, and just works, is far more useful than a computer for $600 that comes with some unknown OS called Linux that doesn't run all their software.
This is just a fact, the sooner tech heads understand this, the better off everyone will be.
Every time a new iPhone comes out, tech people complain about Apple and their "closed ecosystem".
You know what? Apple makes the majority of the profit in the smartphone business while selling only a fraction of the total handsets. Apple has sold over one third of a TRILLION dollars worth of iPhones.
Consumers clearly like what Apple is selling. That the minority of tech people don't is completely meaningless.
I see a LOT of computing options that have nothing to do with MS.
Frankly, they do have a large share of the desktop OS market, but that doesn't mean they have a monopoly on that market.
Apple's Mac is about 6% of the market, and plenty of people here keep claiming that lots and lots of people use Linux and have all setup their parents and grandma's with it...
So what is it? Is MS the only desktop OS option, or do others exist and are they reasonably accessible? I know that many malls have an Apple store in them and they all sell Macs.
--------------
As a side note... Standard Oil was a monopoly, they didn't just compete, they ran everyone else out of business. If MS worked like Standard Oil, then in 1997 they wouldn't have invested $150 million into Apple and guaranteed to provide MS Office for the Mac for another 5 years, they would have bought Apple and shut it down.
One of the very reasons MS probably invested in Apple was to keep someone else in the desktop OS business.
You would be correct that these days, most people in fact don't need a PC, at least not one like a Mac or Windows.
I would suggest that the iPad or Surface (RT flavor) are now "good enough" for what a lot of people use their PC for.
The web version of Quickbooks might work ok, but frankly anyone running their business accounting from a web app needs their head examined. That is the last thing I'd want online. And yes, I do own a business.
As for Google Docs, yea, it does enough for casual use. When you're in business however and need to trade and exchange documents, spreadsheets, and powerpoints to other people, only MS Office will do the job. Being "mostly compatible" is not acceptable.
Also, there are a lot of people (my wife included) who know how to use MS Office and don't care to change. As it is, we recently switched from MS Office 2010 that we owned to Office 365 that we pay about $70 a year for.
Why? Did we need 2013? Nope, not at all... but the 1 TB of OneDrive storage per user was cheaper than all the other options, so from that point of view (we were paying for Dropbox before), Office 365 is "free".
I bought several copies of Windows 7 back when it launched, retail copies... So I am not saving anything by moving to Linux now and I can use those copies safely until 2020.
By then, I may have to pony up a whole $200 to buy a few copies of Windows 10.
Yea, I'm not moving to Linux over that and neither are most people. My annual "Windows Tax" is maybe $20 a year spread out over time, and that is for 3 computers in my home and 5 in the business.
This fascination with "I wanna free OS" just baffles me, the cost of the OS is so minor compared to everything else, who really cares?
I argue that the iPhone and iPad really should not be called a "computer" (unless you also want to call your microwave oven, TV set, A/V receiver, DSLR, DVD/BD Player, VCR, etc. a "computer"), because there are simply absolutely no practical alternatives for the Firmware "OS" that completes the "product" design.
Oh, so almost everything in the world BUT a PC is not a computer?
I don't know about you, but everything from mainframes from the 70's to my PS3 all sure look and act like computers to me.
For that matter, my Atari 2600 sure looks like a computer to me...
Right now they "force" everyone buying a PC to get Windows, and they're able to do this by unfair OEM licensing schemes and as their position as the monopoly player.
There are so many things wrong with this statement...
1. "unfair OEM licensing schemes"
Really? When did the planet where life is fair blow up and scatter its people across the galaxy and why did so many of them land here?
2. Monopoly player?
So Apple is out of business and no longer selling a Mac? I can't build a PC or order one from Dell without Windows and put Linux on it?
MS has a lot of market share, they don't have a monopoly. I know several people who own Macs.
Yes, I do believe that's kind of the point - why do we have to (for most practical intents and purposes) get Windows bundled if MS supposedly isn't involved?
Because "most people" want their computer from Dell and HP to come with Windows.
YOU might not, but you're not "most people".
BTW, you CAN buy a Dell without Windows, you just have to order it that way, their business division sells them.
Dell has tried selling consumer PCs with Linux, it was a headache and they pulled them after commenting that the support issues were too much trouble and caused them to not save anything over the Windows version.
Then she doesn't need a PC, she needs an iPad or a Surface RT.
Frankly, when my wife wants to play around with facebook and do family contacts, she uses one of our iPads. Between Skype being super easy to use with it (and double that since we have kids), and Facebook having a nice interface for it... why use a PC?
What does she use her PC for? MS Office more than anything else. And no, she isn't going to switch to OpenOffice, even for free.
I use Quickbooks for my business, there isn't a Linux version. I'm not going to change my accounting software to avoid a $50 Windows "tax" once every 3-5 years...
Slashdot Mirror
:) All we need is RFID tags in all the food we buy and this can keep track of what you put in and take out (and don't put back), so it knows what you need.
Imagine being at the store and being able to ask it remotely, "hey, do we have milk?"
Actually, most of that software is bundled not because of demand for some crappy application, but because software vendor paid the PC vendor to include it in their build.
People like cheaper stuff, the above allows the computer to be cheaper.
So the OP was correct. :)
People really don't care what OS is on their computer, as long as it pre-installed and works the way they know. It could be QNX or plan9 or anything else, as long as they are able to to the things they know how to do.
^ This...
Windows has been around for over a generation now, MS has been the OS supplier for nearly 2 generations now...
People know it, people use it, people are happy enough with it.
Changing is time consuming and hard, people don't want to change that much.
MS made a huge mistake being late to the phone and tablet business, Apple and Google own that space now.
Because the monopoly is already sustained when someone buys the system, and therefore is forced to pay the Tax. Thats the Idea.
Two flaws with this point.
1. The number of people who will actually request a refund and removal of Windows is tiny.
2. The amount of money removed from Microsoft is also tiny, thus not affecting the desktop OS market.
The entire premise is that if only MS was pushed aside, then Windows would lose its marketshare. The flaw with this idea is that there isn't anything else to take its place. You have OS X with about 6% marketshare, and that won't change much due to the price of Macs.
Linux? Are you kidding? The "year of the Linux desktop" isn't coming...
Most consumers aren't even aware of options (Linux). They see Windows as an integral part of the PC platform.
For desktop PCs, it is...
Other than OS X on the Mac, Windows *IS* the PC platform.
Linux on the desktop is a rounding error and is likely to always be so.
It isn't a technical thing, Linux has long since been "good enough".
But so has Windows... :)
I first installed Linux in 1994, since then I've used many flavors of it. It sure has some nice features over Windows, I'll grant you that. I've run in on more than one server.
On the desktop? Yea, not gonna happen for the mass market. Companies like Red Hat tried that a decade or more ago, as did others... the market wasn't interested then, it isn't interested now.
The iPad is FAR more of a threat than Linux ever was...
Most people are not software geeks. Most people do not dream of spending their weekends downloading a Linux ISO and installing it on their computers.
so... help me out here...
If this is the case, how does the court ordering OEMs to offer Windows refunds help these people?
So you now get a Dell or HP without Windows. Guess what? You now have to download a Linux ISO and install it.
So... They'll keep Windows, thus making this whole thing pointless.
I don't think you read that right...
MS does indeed charge for Windows. Dell then collects money for installing "shovelware" on the computer from third party companies.
No Windows, no Windows cost, but no income from shovelware either.
So the net cost may well come out even.
Example:
Computer A:
Windows included, price to consumer $500
Bill of Materials:
$400 for hardware, $50 for Windows, $-50 credit for installing shovelware from third parties, $100 profit for computer company.
Computer B:
No OS included, price to consumer $500
Bill of Materials:
$400 for hardware, $100 profit for computer company
-------------
Now do you understand?
So the question becomes, "Does Best Buy have to offer *a* computer without Windows, or *all* computers without Windows?"
Those are two very different things.
This could turn out like Windows N edition in Europe, Dell might be forced to offer all computers with and without Windows.
Doesn't mean they'll sell very many of the "without" computers.
They only sell a few modem without operating systems, i.e. no laptops in europe.
Did you ever stop your "year of the Linux desktop" drumbeating long enough to ask why that might be?
Dell tried it almost 10 years ago, they sold consumer systems in the $500 range with Linux, the return rate was much higher than for Windows machines.
People just don't want it... but you don't want to hear that, so instead you blame MS for being evil...
No, they do not WANT their computer with windows.
We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I think you're simply wrong.
But you're welcome to your point of view. :)
--------------
Let me put it another way... There really are only 3 modern desktop OS.
Windows
OS X
Linux
Some people indeed would be happy with OS X, except it is WAY too expensive for what you get for most people.
Linux? Are you kidding? The average customer is NOT interested in Linux. It has been tried... Red Hat and others have been trying for nearly 20 years to get Linux on the desktop...
MS isn't preventing people from selling computers with Linux on it... PEOPLE DO NOT WANT LINUX ON THEIR DESKTOP.
It really is that simple.
I would suggest that iOS is also firmware, it is required to boot an iOS device.
You think it is so simple, you clearly haven't been in a courtroom full of lawyers. :)
Or simply require the product key to be purchased separately and ship an unactivated copy of Windows on the computer.
Sure, lets have the government impose a PITA requirement that the general public isn't asking for, all the while getting into meddling with private business matters.
Great idea!
Whatever happened to "let the free market work it out"?
Dell SELLS multiple computers without Windows and has for years. What is the problem?
I don't think I could convince very many people (at least, not non-techies) that my dishwasher, refrigerator, and washing machine should be referred to as "computers".
:) Have you SEEN some of the new dishwashers and refrigerators?
http://www.samsung.com/us/appl...
This one clearly has a computer in it... :) touch screen and all... You can listen to Pandora on it, you can check the news and weather, it has wi-fi built in...
Sure looks like a computer to me... :)
The number of buyers who would actually want to install an alternative OS (or be able to) is tiny.
^ This... So many geeks keep thinking that the "year of the Linux desktop" is just around the corner with the mass hords of consumers just waiting to be free of Microsoft and Windows.
Except... they aren't... and Linux isn't coming to the desktop... frankly, probably never...
My wife wants a computer that turns on and works. My Mom wants a computer that turns on and works.
Neither of them care if the computer is $600 or $650, so long as the above is true.
A computer for $650 that comes with Windows, runs anything, and just works, is far more useful than a computer for $600 that comes with some unknown OS called Linux that doesn't run all their software.
This is just a fact, the sooner tech heads understand this, the better off everyone will be.
Every time a new iPhone comes out, tech people complain about Apple and their "closed ecosystem".
You know what? Apple makes the majority of the profit in the smartphone business while selling only a fraction of the total handsets. Apple has sold over one third of a TRILLION dollars worth of iPhones.
Consumers clearly like what Apple is selling. That the minority of tech people don't is completely meaningless.
What people? A handful of geeks who've heard of Linux?
This... WAY, way too many geeks do not understand what Joe Consumer really wants...
Apple has sold a third of a TRILLION dollars worth of iPhones because they DO understand that most people do NOT want to screw with all that...
Apple and Google sell their respective operating systems for... wait for it... zero dollars and zero cents per copy.
This might be why Apple decided to just start giving away OS X. :)
Yes, there have been legal judgments... Doesn't make them right. :)
Microsoft is a monopoly
Are you sure about that?
I see a LOT of computing options that have nothing to do with MS.
Frankly, they do have a large share of the desktop OS market, but that doesn't mean they have a monopoly on that market.
Apple's Mac is about 6% of the market, and plenty of people here keep claiming that lots and lots of people use Linux and have all setup their parents and grandma's with it...
So what is it? Is MS the only desktop OS option, or do others exist and are they reasonably accessible? I know that many malls have an Apple store in them and they all sell Macs.
--------------
As a side note... Standard Oil was a monopoly, they didn't just compete, they ran everyone else out of business. If MS worked like Standard Oil, then in 1997 they wouldn't have invested $150 million into Apple and guaranteed to provide MS Office for the Mac for another 5 years, they would have bought Apple and shut it down.
One of the very reasons MS probably invested in Apple was to keep someone else in the desktop OS business.
the general public is unfamiliar with alternatives
The general public has never heard of Apple and the Mac?
You would be correct that these days, most people in fact don't need a PC, at least not one like a Mac or Windows.
I would suggest that the iPad or Surface (RT flavor) are now "good enough" for what a lot of people use their PC for.
The web version of Quickbooks might work ok, but frankly anyone running their business accounting from a web app needs their head examined. That is the last thing I'd want online. And yes, I do own a business.
As for Google Docs, yea, it does enough for casual use. When you're in business however and need to trade and exchange documents, spreadsheets, and powerpoints to other people, only MS Office will do the job. Being "mostly compatible" is not acceptable.
Also, there are a lot of people (my wife included) who know how to use MS Office and don't care to change. As it is, we recently switched from MS Office 2010 that we owned to Office 365 that we pay about $70 a year for.
Why? Did we need 2013? Nope, not at all... but the 1 TB of OneDrive storage per user was cheaper than all the other options, so from that point of view (we were paying for Dropbox before), Office 365 is "free".
I bought several copies of Windows 7 back when it launched, retail copies... So I am not saving anything by moving to Linux now and I can use those copies safely until 2020.
By then, I may have to pony up a whole $200 to buy a few copies of Windows 10.
Yea, I'm not moving to Linux over that and neither are most people. My annual "Windows Tax" is maybe $20 a year spread out over time, and that is for 3 computers in my home and 5 in the business.
This fascination with "I wanna free OS" just baffles me, the cost of the OS is so minor compared to everything else, who really cares?
I argue that the iPhone and iPad really should not be called a "computer" (unless you also want to call your microwave oven, TV set, A/V receiver, DSLR, DVD/BD Player, VCR, etc. a "computer"), because there are simply absolutely no practical alternatives for the Firmware "OS" that completes the "product" design.
Oh, so almost everything in the world BUT a PC is not a computer?
I don't know about you, but everything from mainframes from the 70's to my PS3 all sure look and act like computers to me.
For that matter, my Atari 2600 sure looks like a computer to me...
Right now they "force" everyone buying a PC to get Windows, and they're able to do this by unfair OEM licensing schemes and as their position as the monopoly player.
There are so many things wrong with this statement...
1. "unfair OEM licensing schemes"
Really? When did the planet where life is fair blow up and scatter its people across the galaxy and why did so many of them land here?
2. Monopoly player?
So Apple is out of business and no longer selling a Mac? I can't build a PC or order one from Dell without Windows and put Linux on it?
MS has a lot of market share, they don't have a monopoly. I know several people who own Macs.
Yes, I do believe that's kind of the point - why do we have to (for most practical intents and purposes) get Windows bundled if MS supposedly isn't involved?
Because "most people" want their computer from Dell and HP to come with Windows.
YOU might not, but you're not "most people".
BTW, you CAN buy a Dell without Windows, you just have to order it that way, their business division sells them.
Dell has tried selling consumer PCs with Linux, it was a headache and they pulled them after commenting that the support issues were too much trouble and caused them to not save anything over the Windows version.
Sure, but that is a $1,300 notebook, not counting upgrades and tax...
What is the OS? $50?
Then she doesn't need a PC, she needs an iPad or a Surface RT.
Frankly, when my wife wants to play around with facebook and do family contacts, she uses one of our iPads. Between Skype being super easy to use with it (and double that since we have kids), and Facebook having a nice interface for it... why use a PC?
What does she use her PC for? MS Office more than anything else. And no, she isn't going to switch to OpenOffice, even for free.
I use Quickbooks for my business, there isn't a Linux version. I'm not going to change my accounting software to avoid a $50 Windows "tax" once every 3-5 years...
Neither are most people.