:) I would love a diesel electric truck, that of course makes perfect sense... if you can get the battery and energy storage systems right.
The trick of course to a train is that it can start and run at a fairly constant speed and it doesn't start and stop the way vehicles have to. It is why jet airplanes have become so fuel efficient, they burn lots of fuel taking off and landing, but at cruising altitude they are amazingly fuel efficient.
Coming back to the truck, I was quite serious... the Volt technology would give me EV in town and long range for those times I need it, let me plug it in to recharge for short trips.
I'm TOTALLY a customer, once the price comes down. The price is the primary problem. Some people posting here keep thinking the price isn't that big a deal, it is a huge deal, which is why EVs just aren't selling in anything other than single digit numbers... A few thousand here and a few thousand there are nice, but it is the true believers buying them, the general public won't buy them in their price comes done.
Of course, none of this matters until we get our power from the wall from something other than coal, natural gas, and oil. But that is another issue...:)
Riiiiiiiiight, so that bargin $15K ICE car is never going to need maintenance?
Of course it will, but over 5 years, lets be honest about what that really means.
Oil changes, and that's about it... So 2 a year at $30 each, $60 a year or $300 total. Big deal...
Tires? Your Volt has those too. Wipers? Has those too. Really, modern cars don't need anything but oil changes for the first 5 years.
EVs are cheaper for 90% of drivers daily usage patterns at this point.
TCO, no they aren't, you're simply not correct.
Simple case:
$32,500 out the door price (after tax credit) for a loaded Chevy Volt vs. $17,200 out the door price for a loaded Chevy Spark.
Both vehicles have similar equipment, carry the same number of people, etc...
The Volt is $15,300 more expensive, at $3.50 a gallon for gas, that works out to 4371 gallons of "free" fuel you can put into the Spark. Of course the power for the Volt isn't free, so add 10% more and call it 4,800 gallons of gas to equal out the cost of the vehicles.
The Spark gets 32 mpg combined rating, at that rating, 4,800 gallons will drive you 153,600 miles. Even if you drive 20K miles a year (which is way, way above average), it will take you 6 years to just break even.
In no way does a Volt make any sense whatsoever, the math doesn't lie.
No, it isn't... It is $35k for the base model, less $7,500 credit which I might or might not need, and is also the government just giving me back my own money.
As soon as many people buy them, that credit will go away.
Check the option boxes and it is back to $40k, less $7.5k you're at $32.5k.
Compare that to a Chevy Spark 2LT which has all the features checked, and that is $17.2k, without any credits required.
The Volt is twice the price of a similar sized 4 seat car, with similar equipment. Not sure why you can't see that.
While you are correct in the sense that if you drive enough, the savings of not buying fuel do add up...
The use case where that is true is narrow...
There are plenty of very efficient small cars that can be purchased for $10K+ fewer dollars than the Volt. Over 5 years of ownership, you'll be hard pressed to burn $10K in gas in a small 4 person car over the cost of recharging a Volt.
Add to that the resale of a Volt in 5 years is likely to be terrible as they keep dropping the price, it makes for an even worse investment.
It may well get there, but the people pushing for it today like to ignore a few details that explain why EVs are hardly a rounding error in vehicle sales.
It isn't because people want to waste money, it is because people have done the math and it makes no sense, unless you're "a true believer".
You need to go drive the new model, you likely will be surprised...
It doesn't roll in turns, it doesn't lose traction, they made it shorter and wider, gave it much better suspension, and a stiffer frame.
As for plastic, there is little of that left, the panel is real aluminium, wood, and leather. Your impressions of what the higher end of American cars offer might well be out of date.
As for zero to 35 mph times, there is a decent chance that my truck will beat your Jetta to 35, and again to 60. A 2014 Jetta 1.8T with the manual transmission has a 0-60 time of 7.6 seconds. My truck does it in 6.4 seconds (and weighs 3 tons to boot!).
Now, in fairness, you can buy a pair of Jettas for the price of a single one of my truck, so there is that.:)
That is real leather all over that panel, brushed aluminium around the screen, real wood as well. Almost no plastic whatsoever. Get in one, it really does beat the GL, I drove it and compared, the GMC is nicer.
Except, that will cost a lot of money to build and the investors in such a project want a rate of return on that investment, and it will need maintenance, and it will need land to put it on (that costs money), and taxes have to be paid on all that.
So, um... no, solar panels and sea water won't just solve it...
That, but consider that Toyota might be pushing hydrogen for reasons other than "it's the best choice".
It may be that they have decided they can't compete with GM's Voltech or Tesla's EV tech, so they'll go this way and try and win by making "their standard" win.
Leasing is expensive most of the time. The times when it is not are the rare exceptions, not the rule.
I've priced out leasing a number of times, it simply doesn't make sense if you care about total cost of ownership.
If leasing a Nissan Leaf makes sense, it isn't because the car itself makes sense, but because of rebates and tax incentives that have pushed it there. Those will go away the minute it becomes popular since they would cost too much.
As fast? Depends on the model and engine you get in the A6, my new truck will do 0-60 mph in 6.4 seconds.
For a truck that is just shy of 3 tons, that's not bad...
As for handling, that is much improved as well, you should try driving one. The Denali has magnetic ride suspension, it is a vast improvement over the 2012 model, handles tight in turns out and no longer leans much in hard cornering.
It is still a truck, if you like a car like the A6, by all means, enjoy, nothing wrong with that. I'm just offering another possible option at that price point.
To suggest that a Chevy Volt or Tesla S compares with anything gas powered at their respective price points is just absurd.
Frankly, for $60K, you can get a GMC Yukon SLT that is nicer inside than most of what BMW, Audi, and Mercedes sells at that price point, it rides better, hauls more, and has as much, if not more power.
Spend $65K and get the Denali, even more power (420hp, 460 ft/p torque), even nicer interior, and active noise cancellation in the cabin.
I shopped BMW and Mercedes before buying my new 2015 Yukon XL Denali (took delivery two weeks ago). I drove the GL, it just does not compare, it costs more, offers less, it just isn't there.
I only need 50 miles a day of range almost the entire year. But about 5% of the time, I need 300+ miles of range with the ability to "recharge" in 15 minutes.
Owning a single vehicle that does both tasks costs less than buying two vehicles. It also costs less than buying the EV and renting a truck for the road trips, we don't really have in place a system to do that well, and frankly I don't want to take someone else's beater rental vehicle on a family road trip, I want to take MY vehicle on a family road trip.
Half the price of a Volt, same size and people carrying power...
I keep seeing people saying, "$35K is affordable!". Yea, maybe it is, but for $35K you can buy a Chevy Traverse, or a Camaro... or a hundred other more interesting cars than a Volt.
Yes, that may all be true... but you continue to compare a cheap compact 4 seat car to the average new car which includes all the big expensive stuff.
You can buy a Chevy Sonic which has about the same amount of space and is about the same size as a Volt, for about half the price.
Deal with that problem, then we'll take your "but it is affordable" comments seriously. No one buying $30K+ cars "wants" a 4 seat compact, unless it comes from BMW.
No, a $40K vehicle is NOT out of the reach for most of the population, but what you get for $40K buying EV vs. buying gas, is massively different.
You can get a lot more car for your money buying gas than buying EV, that's the problem.
$40K buys you a top of the line minivan or SUV, it buys you an entry level luxury car... A Chevy Volt? Give me a break, that is a cheap $20K compact car with a fancy battery in it.
Gas it at every filling station, diesel is at most of them, but when traveling on the highways, you'll find it at almost all of them, because big trucks use it.
It might be, if you could hire a diesel that you wanted to drive... if the cost of that was reasonable, and if the infrastructure still existed to support it...
Then you have the issue of the EV costing quite a bit more to buy...
Slashdot Mirror
:) I would love a diesel electric truck, that of course makes perfect sense... if you can get the battery and energy storage systems right.
The trick of course to a train is that it can start and run at a fairly constant speed and it doesn't start and stop the way vehicles have to. It is why jet airplanes have become so fuel efficient, they burn lots of fuel taking off and landing, but at cruising altitude they are amazingly fuel efficient.
Coming back to the truck, I was quite serious... the Volt technology would give me EV in town and long range for those times I need it, let me plug it in to recharge for short trips.
I'm TOTALLY a customer, once the price comes down. The price is the primary problem. Some people posting here keep thinking the price isn't that big a deal, it is a huge deal, which is why EVs just aren't selling in anything other than single digit numbers... A few thousand here and a few thousand there are nice, but it is the true believers buying them, the general public won't buy them in their price comes done.
Of course, none of this matters until we get our power from the wall from something other than coal, natural gas, and oil. But that is another issue... :)
Riiiiiiiiight, so that bargin $15K ICE car is never going to need maintenance?
Of course it will, but over 5 years, lets be honest about what that really means.
Oil changes, and that's about it... So 2 a year at $30 each, $60 a year or $300 total. Big deal...
Tires? Your Volt has those too. Wipers? Has those too. Really, modern cars don't need anything but oil changes for the first 5 years.
EVs are cheaper for 90% of drivers daily usage patterns at this point.
TCO, no they aren't, you're simply not correct.
Simple case:
$32,500 out the door price (after tax credit) for a loaded Chevy Volt
vs.
$17,200 out the door price for a loaded Chevy Spark.
Both vehicles have similar equipment, carry the same number of people, etc...
The Volt is $15,300 more expensive, at $3.50 a gallon for gas, that works out to 4371 gallons of "free" fuel you can put into the Spark. Of course the power for the Volt isn't free, so add 10% more and call it 4,800 gallons of gas to equal out the cost of the vehicles.
The Spark gets 32 mpg combined rating, at that rating, 4,800 gallons will drive you 153,600 miles. Even if you drive 20K miles a year (which is way, way above average), it will take you 6 years to just break even.
In no way does a Volt make any sense whatsoever, the math doesn't lie.
No, it isn't... It is $35k for the base model, less $7,500 credit which I might or might not need, and is also the government just giving me back my own money.
As soon as many people buy them, that credit will go away.
Check the option boxes and it is back to $40k, less $7.5k you're at $32.5k.
Compare that to a Chevy Spark 2LT which has all the features checked, and that is $17.2k, without any credits required.
The Volt is twice the price of a similar sized 4 seat car, with similar equipment. Not sure why you can't see that.
Err... Should have been $5k over the current price.
And if basic economics are not your cup of tea, then nothing I say will matter to you.
I would buy an EV truck tomorrow, if I could for a reasonable price.
I can't, so I don't. I like the idea of the technology, but not the current price or implemtation of it.
Give me my current truck with Volt technology for $5 over the current price and I'm a customer.
While you are correct in the sense that if you drive enough, the savings of not buying fuel do add up...
The use case where that is true is narrow...
There are plenty of very efficient small cars that can be purchased for $10K+ fewer dollars than the Volt. Over 5 years of ownership, you'll be hard pressed to burn $10K in gas in a small 4 person car over the cost of recharging a Volt.
Add to that the resale of a Volt in 5 years is likely to be terrible as they keep dropping the price, it makes for an even worse investment.
It may well get there, but the people pushing for it today like to ignore a few details that explain why EVs are hardly a rounding error in vehicle sales.
It isn't because people want to waste money, it is because people have done the math and it makes no sense, unless you're "a true believer".
You need to go drive the new model, you likely will be surprised...
It doesn't roll in turns, it doesn't lose traction, they made it shorter and wider, gave it much better suspension, and a stiffer frame.
As for plastic, there is little of that left, the panel is real aluminium, wood, and leather. Your impressions of what the higher end of American cars offer might well be out of date.
As for zero to 35 mph times, there is a decent chance that my truck will beat your Jetta to 35, and again to 60. A 2014 Jetta 1.8T with the manual transmission has a 0-60 time of 7.6 seconds. My truck does it in 6.4 seconds (and weighs 3 tons to boot!).
Now, in fairness, you can buy a pair of Jettas for the price of a single one of my truck, so there is that. :)
http://www.seriouswheels.com/p...
That is real leather all over that panel, brushed aluminium around the screen, real wood as well. Almost no plastic whatsoever. Get in one, it really does beat the GL, I drove it and compared, the GMC is nicer.
In that case, for a LOT less money, just buy a gas powered car and fill up at the station.
The problem is, Hydrogen makes no sense whatsoever, Toyota is either insane, or they are very smart and just trying to stall for time.
That sounds nice, solar panels and sea water...
Except, that will cost a lot of money to build and the investors in such a project want a rate of return on that investment, and it will need maintenance, and it will need land to put it on (that costs money), and taxes have to be paid on all that.
So, um... no, solar panels and sea water won't just solve it...
That, but consider that Toyota might be pushing hydrogen for reasons other than "it's the best choice".
It may be that they have decided they can't compete with GM's Voltech or Tesla's EV tech, so they'll go this way and try and win by making "their standard" win.
All reasonable points...
Offer the Chevy Volt for $20K and they could sell half a million of them a year...
At $35K, it is a non-starter...
It begins and ends there, all other arguments are really academic...
Leasing is expensive most of the time. The times when it is not are the rare exceptions, not the rule.
I've priced out leasing a number of times, it simply doesn't make sense if you care about total cost of ownership.
If leasing a Nissan Leaf makes sense, it isn't because the car itself makes sense, but because of rebates and tax incentives that have pushed it there. Those will go away the minute it becomes popular since they would cost too much.
No, of course not, it is a big heavy truck...
As fast? Depends on the model and engine you get in the A6, my new truck will do 0-60 mph in 6.4 seconds.
For a truck that is just shy of 3 tons, that's not bad...
As for handling, that is much improved as well, you should try driving one. The Denali has magnetic ride suspension, it is a vast improvement over the 2012 model, handles tight in turns out and no longer leans much in hard cornering.
It is still a truck, if you like a car like the A6, by all means, enjoy, nothing wrong with that. I'm just offering another possible option at that price point.
To suggest that a Chevy Volt or Tesla S compares with anything gas powered at their respective price points is just absurd.
Actually they tend to do pretty well, I traded in my 2012 Yukon XL Denali and got 77.5% of what I paid for it back.
Frankly, that isn't bad at all...
Mock America all you like by calling us "Merrica", if you don't live here, then you simply don't have room to talk.
Our cities tend to be more spread out and we simply have to drive everywhere, other than a few key locations.
I would question the 15% efficiency number you provide, that may have been true once, but it has gotten better since then.
Still, today I wouldn't expect it over 30%, small engines simply not being as efficient as large engines can be.
That being said, cost is but one concern, ease of refueling is another, plus the cost to purchase in the first place.
Once again, we come back to EV costing FAR more than ICE does. Fix that and I think most people will deal with the range issues.
I know I'd be a buyer if the price were closer.
Frankly, for $60K, you can get a GMC Yukon SLT that is nicer inside than most of what BMW, Audi, and Mercedes sells at that price point, it rides better, hauls more, and has as much, if not more power.
Spend $65K and get the Denali, even more power (420hp, 460 ft/p torque), even nicer interior, and active noise cancellation in the cabin.
I shopped BMW and Mercedes before buying my new 2015 Yukon XL Denali (took delivery two weeks ago). I drove the GL, it just does not compare, it costs more, offers less, it just isn't there.
^ This...
I only need 50 miles a day of range almost the entire year. But about 5% of the time, I need 300+ miles of range with the ability to "recharge" in 15 minutes.
Owning a single vehicle that does both tasks costs less than buying two vehicles. It also costs less than buying the EV and renting a truck for the road trips, we don't really have in place a system to do that well, and frankly I don't want to take someone else's beater rental vehicle on a family road trip, I want to take MY vehicle on a family road trip.
That is true, but for the current price of EVs, you can spend half as much and get just as nice a car and buy gas for years...
EVs sound and look great to people who put "saving the planet" above "saving money".
Nothing wrong with that, but the majority of people won't make that choice. Get EV costs way down and they'll sell like hotcakes...
Yep, another good one is the Chevy Spark...
Half the price of a Volt, same size and people carrying power...
I keep seeing people saying, "$35K is affordable!". Yea, maybe it is, but for $35K you can buy a Chevy Traverse, or a Camaro... or a hundred other more interesting cars than a Volt.
Yes, that may all be true... but you continue to compare a cheap compact 4 seat car to the average new car which includes all the big expensive stuff.
You can buy a Chevy Sonic which has about the same amount of space and is about the same size as a Volt, for about half the price.
Deal with that problem, then we'll take your "but it is affordable" comments seriously. No one buying $30K+ cars "wants" a 4 seat compact, unless it comes from BMW.
No, a $40K vehicle is NOT out of the reach for most of the population, but what you get for $40K buying EV vs. buying gas, is massively different.
You can get a lot more car for your money buying gas than buying EV, that's the problem.
$40K buys you a top of the line minivan or SUV, it buys you an entry level luxury car... A Chevy Volt? Give me a break, that is a cheap $20K compact car with a fancy battery in it.
Gas it at every filling station, diesel is at most of them, but when traveling on the highways, you'll find it at almost all of them, because big trucks use it.
The same one that doesn't put electrical outlets within handy reach of parking spaces, nor are most of them weather proof.
It might be, if you could hire a diesel that you wanted to drive... if the cost of that was reasonable, and if the infrastructure still existed to support it...
Then you have the issue of the EV costing quite a bit more to buy...
EV's time may come, but it isn't here yet...