pretty much every time I have to do heavy XP maintenance is because of viruses. Since they all already have antivir+firewal+non-admin user+opera or firefox, I don't think I can do more within XP.
If, aside from solving the virus problem, Linux rises too many other issues, I'll give up. I'd like to at least give it a serious try before deciding, though.
since there is transition coming anyway, either to 7 or to linux, the time seems right to investigate.
thanks. I'm at 93.2% of the opensuse torrent, next step is a virtualbox on my main PC, then a full install on a new partition on my secondary pc , then a full install on my main pc.
I might drop you a line if i get terminally stuck (my AIO printer/scanner looks ominous:-p).. I'd really like to get to the point, not so much where I don't have issues or even where I can solve them out-of-hand like I mostly can in Windows; but at least where I can find solutions on my own:-p
1- The 4 problematic PCs are running XP or 7 perfectly right now, so I'm not buying the faulty/crappy hardware line. I checked driver support, they are even supposed to be linux-compatible even if old-ish, except for a very old Via-C7 one which should require manual config, except I can get to that point. My issue is not about Linux being hard to install, because when everything works it's very easy. My issues with Linux are more about limited driver support, failure to install on some systems, lacking/outdated documentation, and disappointment with forums help. But that's not the question at hand, I'll make do with those issues.
2- You're making the assumption that I'll DL the distro and run around installing it everywhere. You're wrong. And they won't see me fumbling. By the time I roll Linux out, I'll be competent enough (or I won't roll it out), and after a few funny experiences, I do all my installs at home, alone, with peace, quiet, time, my PCs and my tools on hand. Plus it a good policy to make them at least make the effort to bring the PC over, otherwise I'm a permanent on-call slave.
3- Making it look and feel like XP is a way to have the flattest possible learning curve. You're free to disagree, but I don't find the 'set expectations' approach convincing.
4- Read the OP: I installed Ubuntu. My issues with it is implied: not XP-like enough. I didn't mention the other problems I have with Ubuntu apart from the look and feel, though I do have some: rsync fumbling ntfs-to-ntfs syncs; nx-desktop configuration (the doc seems to assume more knowledge than I have, which is a common Linux catch). I assume you'll give me the "ntfs is bad" speech, but since I won't switch everything overnight I'll have a lot of NTFS everywhere, all my users data partitions and backup drives are ntfs.
The 'icons moving around' thing was just an exemple, not a key design goal/issue.
Thank you for all the answers, especially the more constructive and helpful ones. They can be categorized as follows:
1- Don't do anything: not really satisfying. -> XP breaks regularly, even with antivirus, firewall, router, Firefox, non-admin user... must be PDFs or social engineering. -> XP is nearing EOL, so there will be a transition, either to 7 or Linux
2- Not your choice, let them choose: Mmmm... non-techies ? Someone has to choose for them. Most of 'my' users already use OOo, firefox, thunderbird and VLC, so on the apps side the transition should be OK except for games and very specific apps.
3- You're an incompetent idiot, crawl back to your cave and don't pretend to be able to support anyone: kinda true, and helpful forewarning about the atmosphere on many Linux forums. I'm trying to get better though, and think Slashdot is a good place to ask that seminal question. I will of course work on it myself before rolling it out. Right now I'm on Ubuntu 9.10, seems OK, Basic software OK, VLC a bit cranky to setup, need to look for IM and Skype, and a backup/dir synch solution that works well with NTFS (RSYNC has issues), and a remote desktop solution that works well (VNC is ugly and slow, the nx-desktop has issues)
4- PCLinux, PuppyLinux, Vistx, and other minor distros: I myself talked about PuppyLinux in my original 'Ask', but for some reason it was edited out. My concern with those is driver support: I'd like to use the same setup everywhere, and with 'lesser' distros, I'm afraid of drivers problems.
5- Use KDE 3.5 instead of Gnome: thanks, that sound like a very good idea. KDE 4.4 seems now stable, but may actually bee too much for my needs.
6- OpenSUSE seems the consensus, with honorable mentions to Ubuntu, MEPIS and Mint. I'll try that out, since my latest attempt at switching Ubuntu to Kubuntu fubared my PC (i'm sure it was fixable, but couldn't find how to, and didn't get helpful help on the forums). SUSE seems natively KDE, so that's better.
7- XP themes from gnome-look or KDE-look.org: I'll try them out. My concern i similar to the 'minor' distros: long-term evolution, and support. I'd much rather use a distro that works for me out-of the box, with very minimal tweaking nor extensions.
I agree with you about the hardware. On the software side, I've been watching over them for several years, so I'm fairly confident I can anticipate issues.
I'm on basic Ubuntu right now, but it seems needlessly different from the XP look and feel. Hence my looking for something more XP-like to cut my teeth on before rolling it out.
I've already got Ubuntu up on a couple of PCs, managed to get the susual stuff, and even VLC after a bit of tweaking, running... I'm just missing a good IM client and Skype, and I'll be up to speed with what 'my' users need. I'm still having issues with NTFS-to-NTFS disk/directory synchronization (timestamps seem borked ? I miss xxcopy and SyncToy badly:p ), backups/restores (linux seems to spread its config files even wider than windows ?), and RDP remote desktop (VNC is very slow).
they don' know much about XP either, and less about Vista. The only place they go for help is me... It would be a good laugh to send them over to technet...
Mac is expensive, different from XP, requires a new PC...
benefit = me not having to clean viruses so often. And it's either Linux or 7, no that XP is nearing EOL. I'd rather go with Linux if I can get it to be not much more painful than transitioning ot 7, for the sake of minimizing maintenance headaches.
My issue with the minor distros is drivers, especially video and wireless. Puppylinux looks incredibly nice, too, but I'd really like to try and roll out one single distro everywhere, so I need to minimize hardware issues because in my experience if there's an issue, it's very hard to fix (very little docs, community support not as forthcoming as 'advertised'...)
and.. they call me for EVERYTHING, including when icons move around on the desktop:-p
The reason is: I'm tired of XP getting broken, and since there's a transition to 7 looming on the horizon, I'd rather transition them to something that may be, if not more reliable per se, at least less virus-prone. I've tried every trick in the book, from antivirus to firewalls to non-admin User account to alternative browsers/office suite (my bad I guess, I never did anything about PDF and Flash)...
Most of my users are not really qualified to use a computer, let alone decide on their own what OS+Software they should use:-)
Thanks, but 1- I did manage to install 7 with 3 HDs in my system. 2- encryption is not very important for home use. 3- ditto with RAID, specially since RAID is not a substitute for backups, and what's really important is backups. 4- I have no clue what partition you're talking about. My 7 (home) install has no such thing.
I'll try out a Live CD before final install, just to make sure the hardware is recognized. I've also had numerous issues installing Linux, and found the tools very lacking, the doc mostly non-existent (or outdated), and the forums very hostile. After literally wasting days on some issues, my take now is 'if it's broken, try to fix it for 1hr max, then give up".
Not really. I've switched pretty much all of them over to VLC, Firefox and Thunderbird by now. Most of them don't use Office at all, or for the little they do, OOo should be OK. I'm more concerned about games actually, it's hard to find even classics (Scrabble...) for Linux. And IM+Skype, but I'm fairly confident I'll find something.
Actually I'm the one who's tired with them getting viruses and bringing back their PCs every 3 to 6 months:-p Macs would force them to buy a new, and expensive, computer, that would be too different from what little they already know, so that's pretty much out. XP is becoming a real pain, and since 7 changes things enough to throw off very incompetent users, I'll take advantage of that to transition them to Linux instead, hopefully bringing an end to the quarterly/semesterly de-crappings.
I my self am pretty satisfied with Ubuntu, but it definitely does not look like XP at all. I'm downloading openSuse right now, and will try out the KDE version in a VirtualBox on my PC, since it seems to be what most recommend. My original post included that I quite like PuppyLinux too, but for some reason that was edited out.
I knew I would get that kind of reaction wording my question that way. My aim is not to bash Linux, but of the 6 PCs I currently have at home, it failed to install on 4, from a HALT error to a grey screen after loading x to a weird system screen with no login or launch options to a great big freeze at the desktop. I tried looking around for docs on these 4 issues, and either didn't find any relevant info, or it didn't work, or the info was incomplete or outdated. But then again, I'm dumb.
Since it did install on my 2 latest PCs, I'm taking it as a sign it will work well enough for simple desktop tasks, though the community, as you so effectively prove, is as welcoming to curious passer-bys and newbies as ever.
As for making it look like Windows, my users have a tendency to be even dumber than me. My 80-year old dad is thrown off when a video driver update changes his screen's resolution...
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pretty much every time I have to do heavy XP maintenance is because of viruses. Since they all already have antivir+firewal+non-admin user+opera or firefox, I don't think I can do more within XP.
If, aside from solving the virus problem, Linux rises too many other issues, I'll give up. I'd like to at least give it a serious try before deciding, though.
since there is transition coming anyway, either to 7 or to linux, the time seems right to investigate.
thanks. I'm at 93.2% of the opensuse torrent, next step is a virtualbox on my main PC, then a full install on a new partition on my secondary pc , then a full install on my main pc.
I might drop you a line if i get terminally stuck (my AIO printer/scanner looks ominous :-p).. I'd really like to get to the point, not so much where I don't have issues or even where I can solve them out-of-hand like I mostly can in Windows; but at least where I can find solutions on my own :-p
1- The 4 problematic PCs are running XP or 7 perfectly right now, so I'm not buying the faulty/crappy hardware line. I checked driver support, they are even supposed to be linux-compatible even if old-ish, except for a very old Via-C7 one which should require manual config, except I can get to that point. My issue is not about Linux being hard to install, because when everything works it's very easy. My issues with Linux are more about limited driver support, failure to install on some systems, lacking/outdated documentation, and disappointment with forums help. But that's not the question at hand, I'll make do with those issues.
2- You're making the assumption that I'll DL the distro and run around installing it everywhere. You're wrong. And they won't see me fumbling. By the time I roll Linux out, I'll be competent enough (or I won't roll it out), and after a few funny experiences, I do all my installs at home, alone, with peace, quiet, time, my PCs and my tools on hand. Plus it a good policy to make them at least make the effort to bring the PC over, otherwise I'm a permanent on-call slave.
3- Making it look and feel like XP is a way to have the flattest possible learning curve. You're free to disagree, but I don't find the 'set expectations' approach convincing.
4- Read the OP: I installed Ubuntu. My issues with it is implied: not XP-like enough. I didn't mention the other problems I have with Ubuntu apart from the look and feel, though I do have some: rsync fumbling ntfs-to-ntfs syncs; nx-desktop configuration (the doc seems to assume more knowledge than I have, which is a common Linux catch). I assume you'll give me the "ntfs is bad" speech, but since I won't switch everything overnight I'll have a lot of NTFS everywhere, all my users data partitions and backup drives are ntfs.
The 'icons moving around' thing was just an exemple, not a key design goal/issue.
Thank you for all the answers, especially the more constructive and helpful ones. They can be categorized as follows:
1- Don't do anything: not really satisfying.
-> XP breaks regularly, even with antivirus, firewall, router, Firefox, non-admin user... must be PDFs or social engineering.
-> XP is nearing EOL, so there will be a transition, either to 7 or Linux
2- Not your choice, let them choose: Mmmm... non-techies ? Someone has to choose for them. Most of 'my' users already use OOo, firefox, thunderbird and VLC, so on the apps side the transition should be OK except for games and very specific apps.
3- You're an incompetent idiot, crawl back to your cave and don't pretend to be able to support anyone: kinda true, and helpful forewarning about the atmosphere on many Linux forums. I'm trying to get better though, and think Slashdot is a good place to ask that seminal question. I will of course work on it myself before rolling it out. Right now I'm on Ubuntu 9.10, seems OK, Basic software OK, VLC a bit cranky to setup, need to look for IM and Skype, and a backup/dir synch solution that works well with NTFS (RSYNC has issues), and a remote desktop solution that works well (VNC is ugly and slow, the nx-desktop has issues)
4- PCLinux, PuppyLinux, Vistx, and other minor distros: I myself talked about PuppyLinux in my original 'Ask', but for some reason it was edited out. My concern with those is driver support: I'd like to use the same setup everywhere, and with 'lesser' distros, I'm afraid of drivers problems.
5- Use KDE 3.5 instead of Gnome: thanks, that sound like a very good idea. KDE 4.4 seems now stable, but may actually bee too much for my needs.
6- OpenSUSE seems the consensus, with honorable mentions to Ubuntu, MEPIS and Mint. I'll try that out, since my latest attempt at switching Ubuntu to Kubuntu fubared my PC (i'm sure it was fixable, but couldn't find how to, and didn't get helpful help on the forums). SUSE seems natively KDE, so that's better.
7- XP themes from gnome-look or KDE-look.org: I'll try them out. My concern i similar to the 'minor' distros: long-term evolution, and support. I'd much rather use a distro that works for me out-of the box, with very minimal tweaking nor extensions.
Again, thanks for all the answers and feedback.
I agree with you about the hardware. On the software side, I've been watching over them for several years, so I'm fairly confident I can anticipate issues.
Thanks, that's helpful, a bit.
Thanks, it look a bit extreme but right on target
Thanks.
I'm on basic Ubuntu right now, but it seems needlessly different from the XP look and feel. Hence my looking for something more XP-like to cut my teeth on before rolling it out.
thanks :-p
They (and I) are tired of viruses, and face at least an upgrade to Vista in the near furtue. Don't use non-web games (except Scrabble).
Thanks
or maybe I'm asking now to get a headstart ?
I've already got Ubuntu up on a couple of PCs, managed to get the susual stuff, and even VLC after a bit of tweaking, running... I'm just missing a good IM client and Skype, and I'll be up to speed with what 'my' users need. I'm still having issues with NTFS-to-NTFS disk/directory synchronization (timestamps seem borked ? I miss xxcopy and SyncToy badly :p ), backups/restores (linux seems to spread its config files even wider than windows ?), and RDP remote desktop (VNC is very slow).
they don' know much about XP either, and less about Vista. The only place they go for help is me... It would be a good laugh to send them over to technet...
Mac is expensive, different from XP, requires a new PC...
benefit = me not having to clean viruses so often. And it's either Linux or 7, no that XP is nearing EOL. I'd rather go with Linux if I can get it to be not much more painful than transitioning ot 7, for the sake of minimizing maintenance headaches.
My issue with the minor distros is drivers, especially video and wireless. Puppylinux looks incredibly nice, too, but I'd really like to try and roll out one single distro everywhere, so I need to minimize hardware issues because in my experience if there's an issue, it's very hard to fix (very little docs, community support not as forthcoming as 'advertised'...)
and.. they call me for EVERYTHING, including when icons move around on the desktop :-p
The issue with minor distros is drivers, especially video drivers. I like PuppyLinux a lot, too.
Thanks, mine is 80, so it seems I should try something KDE-Based :-p
The reason is: I'm tired of XP getting broken, and since there's a transition to 7 looming on the horizon, I'd rather transition them to something that may be, if not more reliable per se, at least less virus-prone. I've tried every trick in the book, from antivirus to firewalls to non-admin User account to alternative browsers/office suite (my bad I guess, I never did anything about PDF and Flash)...
Most of my users are not really qualified to use a computer, let alone decide on their own what OS+Software they should use :-)
Thanks, but
1- I did manage to install 7 with 3 HDs in my system.
2- encryption is not very important for home use.
3- ditto with RAID, specially since RAID is not a substitute for backups, and what's really important is backups.
4- I have no clue what partition you're talking about. My 7 (home) install has no such thing.
I know the feeling :-p
I'll try out a Live CD before final install, just to make sure the hardware is recognized. I've also had numerous issues installing Linux, and found the tools very lacking, the doc mostly non-existent (or outdated), and the forums very hostile. After literally wasting days on some issues, my take now is 'if it's broken, try to fix it for 1hr max, then give up".
Thanks. DLing it as we speak. I'm using Ubuntu myself, and it certianly looks very different from XP.
Yep. Already started that when I helped them with Windows though, so now I'm trying to make less work for myself ^^
Not really. I've switched pretty much all of them over to VLC, Firefox and Thunderbird by now. Most of them don't use Office at all, or for the little they do, OOo should be OK. I'm more concerned about games actually, it's hard to find even classics (Scrabble...) for Linux. And IM+Skype, but I'm fairly confident I'll find something.
Actually I'm the one who's tired with them getting viruses and bringing back their PCs every 3 to 6 months :-p Macs would force them to buy a new, and expensive, computer, that would be too different from what little they already know, so that's pretty much out. XP is becoming a real pain, and since 7 changes things enough to throw off very incompetent users, I'll take advantage of that to transition them to Linux instead, hopefully bringing an end to the quarterly/semesterly de-crappings.
I my self am pretty satisfied with Ubuntu, but it definitely does not look like XP at all. I'm downloading openSuse right now, and will try out the KDE version in a VirtualBox on my PC, since it seems to be what most recommend. My original post included that I quite like PuppyLinux too, but for some reason that was edited out.
I knew I would get that kind of reaction wording my question that way. My aim is not to bash Linux, but of the 6 PCs I currently have at home, it failed to install on 4, from a HALT error to a grey screen after loading x to a weird system screen with no login or launch options to a great big freeze at the desktop. I tried looking around for docs on these 4 issues, and either didn't find any relevant info, or it didn't work, or the info was incomplete or outdated. But then again, I'm dumb.
Since it did install on my 2 latest PCs, I'm taking it as a sign it will work well enough for simple desktop tasks, though the community, as you so effectively prove, is as welcoming to curious passer-bys and newbies as ever.
As for making it look like Windows, my users have a tendency to be even dumber than me. My 80-year old dad is thrown off when a video driver update changes his screen's resolution...