And when Jehovah says "Worship no other god before me," isn't he agreeing that there are many?
No he's not saying other God's exist just that we should not worship other Gods. Men tend to try to do that, just look in the bible to see how the jews built and worshipped a golden calf while Moses was up on the mountain chatting with God. Many people worship other stuff to like money, cars, etc. God is saying not to do this. This is the same thing when God tells us to have no idols.
What? Where do you get this conclusion from? Christianity certainly doesn't exclude other religions. What if their God is the same thing? As per what God would do, I wouldn't presume to question God. Perhaps those statements should be looked at in context, rather than in a broad sweeping generalization - maybe then they'll make more sense. "Love God above all others." "Love your neighbor as yourself." Done. If a person does that, then they're Christian in my book.
Christianity does exclude other religions. Check the Bible. Jesus says that he is the light and the truth and the only way to the father is through him. That's kindof specific don't you think?
There's nothing that says that repetetive rebirth isn't possible. That could be what heaven is. It's not like anyone knows. Ditto with the "eternal life/eternal death" thing. You don't know there's a difference, and I can easily believe that it's the same thing.
Christianity specifically teaches that there is an afterlife and a judgement and you get one chance at this life. It's scattered throughout the whole Bible, especially the new testament. Revelation has some good parts about people sleeping (dead) being raised and the like. Never anything about reincarnation, etc.
One says that it has a trunk and big ears and another that it has a muzzle and small pointy and hairy ears.
Yes, but what if the elephant says it has a trunk and two big ears, then it doesn't matter what the blind men say.
One also wonders, if animals never hurt each other pre-sin, then how did they survive? Lions certainly didn't eat plants, and it seems a bit unlikely that the gazelles of the savanna
That's exactly what the Bible says...all animals were vegetarians. So why do they have fangs? Because they are different now...everything is. If the world was created and sustained by God, why would it be so hard for it to reflect the curse Adam and Eve's sin brought about?
Let's even ignore humans, because the usual response is, "humans have free will, they can do what they want, it's not God's fault if they kill each other." How about all the animals that have died horribly over the ages, and suffered pain? Or those that are born deformed, unable to survive more than a few days, hours, or minutes? Those that are attacked by carnivores, torn to shreds while still alive, and eaten? Did you know there's a kind of lizard in the American Southwest that, in order to discourage attackers, actually bursts a vein and shoots a stream of blood out of its eye? Does God get the creative credit for those things, too?
Two reasons:
-Humans have free will and can screw things up (you heard this one)
-The world is fallen and cursed and thus our being independent of God messed everything else up too (as God created it all for us). See Genesis
We are capable of commiting "evil" acts, and God isn't. Thus, the simple observation that there is evil in the world commited by humans implies that humans are more powerful than God. It's not simply that god chooses not commit evil acts, omnibenevolence requires that he does not commit evil acts.
How can God be omnipotent and not have free will? I believe it would be more accurate to say God could commit evil, but he chooses not to because its not his nature. Otherwise you are putting limits on a limitless God.
The problem with this argument is that every time I prayed to God (and I tried very hard for a very long time to be a good Xtian) I got nothing back. Nada.
Maybe you were only expecting "yes" rather than "no" or "not yet" or "yes, but do this...". God does what is best for us, not necessarily what our heart desires. I have yet to receive the billion dollars I asked for.
And "friends" of mine who were also supposedly on the same wavelength and also talking with God for advice stabbed me in the back, ridiculed me, etc.
Fellow fallable humans. Don't put your trust in them, put it in the Lord. Your compliant is what they did against you, not what he did.
Or perhaps God no longer acts in obvious ways like that is BECAUSE IT'S A BOOK! It's fiction. Parable. Written by men. Men interested in controlling the behavior of other men in order to maintain power over them.
Hmm if the New Testament were fiction why did so many people fall for it when the very people mentioned in the book were still alive? I mean, they could have gone and seen the stuff for theirselves. They could have pulled out Jesus' body and said "Look, here it is. He is no God." You might read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel...it goes over all of this much better than I ever could
These sects believe that when you die, if you've accepted Jesus, and repent your sins - you go to Heaven. Otherwise, your soul is effectively destroyed forever. This has profoundly less impact on the ethics a person demonstrates in one's lifetime than the whole "roasting in the eternal flames of hell getting assraped by demons" deal.
Of course true Christian theology states that those who don't believe do go to hell and live eternity apart from God. The reason for this is God values us so much he will not destroy us. You'll either be in heaven or hell but never destroyed. Now what hell is - that is open to interpretation. We know for sure though that it is eternity apart from God. Whether there is flames and brimstone...I doubt it will make much of a difference.
It's not free will if you will be punished for choosing wrong.
Of course it is. I have free will right now. I could go out and murder someone, and I'll be punished. I might get life in prison, or maybe execution. Free will is simply defined as the ability to choose...free choice. Or by the ability to make free choices without them being constrained by external circumstances (like fate).
You believe in jesus despite the fact that what you believe cannot be proven scientifically. Any scientific reasoning has to start from the assumption that there is no god. If we included such an absurdity as the first assumption in our proof, anything could be proven to be the work of god. Also any such proof would be negated by proving the assumption wrong (impossible). Therein lies the contradiction of science and religion.
You do understand that many millions of people have lived throughout history and left no tangible proof that they existed?
Exactly. There is no evidence and if someone claims there is you should indeed look closer to examine the evidence. Exact science is actually about proving hypothesis wrong, not proving them right. So far there is no evidence for the existence of a god that has not been dismissed decisively (other than eye witness reports by peasants, discovery channel and various other unreliable sources).
There may be little evidence of God but there is some evidence of Jesus Christ who spent his life claiming to be God and backing that up not only through his actions but via miracles that nobody else could do. You might read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It's pretty good.
How many posts does it take, how slow is god to anger? 10 posts, 20? 100? at what point does Allah say, "he's been reading pro-Islam posts on Slashdot all day, but died in a car accident without believing in me. To hell with him."
Who can say? to the Lord a post is like a thousand posts, and a thousand posts is like a post. Although no doubt you've been having to hear Christian beliefs for a long time and probably will continue to, long before an SUV kills you. By the way, you're talking about Allah here. He will no doubt strike you dead after just a few posts, or at least have you slaughtered like the infidel you are. Now Jehovah won't do that.
Well, I don't know. The problem here is that different sects of Christianity have very different ideas of what constitutes "fruits of the spirit." Admittedly I'm an outsider formerly on the inside, but to my eyes, none of these sects have an adequate claim to the best set of criteria. (OTOH, I suspect that the people who scream the loudest about having the best criteria, are the same people whose own spiritual fruits have grown rotten.)
It is actually quite interesting to read what the bible says about this. For example, it says if you speak in tounges you better have someone sitting beside you translating it, otherwise shut up. Likewise, if you do a prophecy it better come true or you're a liar and not speaking for God (too bad some sects predicting the end of the world don't get this). Personally I don't care for these churches where people convulse, scream, pass out, etc. The Lord isn't putting on a circus...much of this these people do theirselves and is not "gifts"
I don't see any reason why all of those deities couldn't be the same thing, seen by humans and mangled into (mostly) unrecognizable forms. The fact that they appear distinct is exactly what the parable is trying to address.
Well two issues here... One is that many times these dieties exhibit traits and personalities that conflict with each other. One being would not do that. Secondly, just because something is similar doesn't make it identical. I could say two people are white, male, programmers, like computers and perl, etc, etc. and yet they are two distinct people (or maybe one doesn't even exist).
Indeed, how can we ever know God?
By Christian theology: We can only know about God via what he has revealed in his word, his dealings in history, and his prophet. Now KNOWING God is entirely different. For that we are told the holy spirit will dwell inside of us and that is how we will know him - via a one-on-one relationship.
He gave us a wealth of experimental data. We call it the Universe.
Of course the universe in and of itself can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, and thus science can neither provide or disprove him. It ultimately comes down to faith (which means, believing and trusting in God even though you can't directly see and hear him)
How do you know that every religion says different things? They all fundamentally say "Be nice to each other". And every one stresses some spirituality. Isn't that what Christ said is important? You're quibbling over details.
Hmm, well Islam says that in its marketing materials but there is an awful lot of conquest, killing of the infidels, etc. in the Quaran. So it is a god of Love or War? Likewise what little I know of buddahism, etc. seems to have absolutely nothing to do with God but with man seeking the path of enlighenment. Well that is a lot different than Christianity that stresses we were created by God to worship him and be in fellowship with him.
Want a test? Sure. Take a child. Take him to as many religious ceremonies as you can think of. Now ask him or her what the philosophical difference is between them. I'd bet that he won't be able to tell you. (I know. I was one of those kids.) This isn't because he's stupid, or he doesn't understand - it's because you've become stupid about this kinda thing, and you don't understand that they're all saying the same thing.
Geez I don't know where to start. Get a book on world religions and then try to tell me they all say the same thing. They don't. Not even close. And its a lot more than small differences. Also a child isn't a good example, what does a child know? They know they are sitting in church being bored and would like to go get an icecream cone. Do you think they are listening to or understanding the sermon or anything else? If they are then they must be smart because I certainly wasn't when I was young.
And as for God contradicting himself, He's not ! That's what the elephant story explains! What you see as contradictions are merely different people seeing God in different ways, and then mangling and destroying the religion due to human greed, envy, and suffering. Every religion is like that - Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Muslim, Judaism, Wiccan, all of them. But all of them have the same kernel of truth in them.
Actually this doesn't have anything to do with the elephant story. Sure, if all we knew of religion was what man had figured out. But you will find in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and probably others statements which are portrayed as the direct commandments and direct word of God. So if God is talking then, we're not feeling up an elephant but rather listening to the truth as he says it.
I think you're insane to believe that God has a list of "by-laws". What about those who were slaughtered during the Crusades? They heard of Christianity - it was at the end of a sword. To believe that up in Heaven, God's got a list of "exceptions" - that's crazy. If that were true, every lawyer would go to heaven just so they could work for God.
I said if someone was incapable of understanding or accepting Christ then the Lord will deal with them appropriately. He is just and he is love. Those two qualities would not allow someone to be punished for what they are not guilty of.
No - if you believe in a salvation and damnation, it better be independent of religion if it's universal. Otherwise God is nothing more than another human being. It has to be some basic simple fact about human existence.
I don't understand this. What rules says salvation and damnation cannot be part of religion? If a religion says "God created you. He'll decide how you spend eternity". That seems to fit religion very well.
This isn't just how it is. God made it that way. God's rule on how to get into heaven is unjust.
Yes he did make it that way. But its not unjust. Unjust being defined as "unfair". It is actually quite fair...you reap what you sow, you receive punishment for what you did. Unless you believe in Christ, then the sentence is thrown out since Christ took our punishment himself. Seems pretty just to me.
Your logic is bad. How does it follow that since I don't believe in him, I don't need him?
Hmm, so you've just said you don't need him, yet you're complaining that by Christian doctrine, you'll go to hell and be seperated by him forever (as in being unjust?).
Or is he just a spoiled brat. Just because I don't believe in Jesus, it doesn't mean I'd rather not go to hell, yet Jesus would refuse to help me? Doesn't sound like the Jesus I know.
Jesus will indeed help you if you ask him. Of course you have to ask him this side of eternity.
What, exactly, does the Bible prove? This is a pretty reasonable question to ask, I think.
Well if you take it on its historical basis alone, then finding evidence to back up the historical information would add to its credibility. Thus if you can provide reasonable evidence that Christ existed, and that he performed the miracles he is said to have done, then you would put some credence into what he actually said. See "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.
I am constantly amazed that christians find it so hard to believe that muslims or jews or whoever else don't easily and readily convert to christianity upon hearing of it. Is it so hard to see that they are no more likely to convert to your religion than you are to convert to theirs, and for pretty much exactly the same reasons (or at least, by exactly the same reasonings)?
This is true. That is why Christianity stresses that we can never "convert" someone. It's only God that can do the converting. But it is a Christian's responsibility to share the good news and let God take it from there. Because its the Holy Spirit that does it...no well-formed argument or elegant speech will do anything.
that is, you point to your book and say, "see, no one comes to the father except through christ" and then wonder how a muslim fails to accept that, but it doesn't surprise you in the least when a muslim says to you "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger" and you fail to accept *that* as true. If you died today and Allah said to you, "You read on slashdot that there was no God but Me. And yet you failed to believe. I condemn you to everlasting torment!" would you accept that as a fair judgement?
In the same bible it says God is patient and slow to anger. In other words, He gives us about a zillion chances to believe in him. He isn't going to condemn someone because they ignored a post of Slashdot.
I'm betting that the folks that you call Christians who call themselves Christians but really aren't, are the folks that don't agree with *your* interpretation of Christs teachings.
Well actually I was referring to people who come to my church, sit on the pews every Sunday and are only Christian for about an hour every week. Their actions, their morals, etc. don't reflect Christ's teachings.
I'm a Mormon (who *are* Christian, contrary to what your preacher told you) and routinely hear this silliness from born-agains and other myopic new testament believers, and frankly, I am sick and tired of hearing it. May I ask, what do you think the word means?
Well I was never thinking of Mormans but since you bring the issue up I do have some questions. As I understand it Mormanism directly contracts the Bible. For instance, Mormans do not believe in the trinity (one God in three persons) but rather that the father and son are seperate beings. They also believe God was once flesh, that Jesus was his literal son, and that we will all day become just like (read: equal) to God. Now perhaps some of this is misunderstanding but many "anti-Morman" books and websites state this as official Morman teachings. I cannot say for myself since I have not looked into it first hand.
Where do you think it comes from? If we ignore doctrine altogether, then all it means is someone who follows Christ in some fashion. That's it. No more is required. You don't have to believe most of what he said, or even believe that he existed. You just have to follow his teachings in some way. Just because I don't follow your interpretation of things, doesn't mean that I am not a Christian.
Potentially. But if your beliefs directly contradict the Bible then how can they be true christianity? I'm not talking whether you will be saved or not (as you probably will) but rather what it means to be christian.
And saying that I give Christians a bad name because of it is so insulting and rude, as to be a non-Christian act in itself.
Like I said, many people give Christianity a bad name. Just watch some of these evangelists sometime.
Christ himself said, take my name upon you. That is what I've done, and I am Christian, no matter what you say.
Yes but He also said beware of false teachings and to follow him. And for me, that means looking primarily to what He said and what his disciples said. If something disagrees with what they said, then its wrong.
And maybe you missed something in the Old Testament (which is part of the Bible, and not just Psalms and Proverbs, the whole thing), but Judaism is true in many ways. Jesus came and corrected some people who were nitpicking too much, but they weren't wrong in every way. The Old Testament is as much a part of the Bible as the New.
This is true but if you understand it from a Christian viewpoint then it is this... Christ came to fulfill Judaism and not to abolish it. The laws given to Moses were meant to show man that he can never earn his way to heaven and that if you break even one law you're in trouble. It's supposed to show the need for the messiah and ultimately Christ's sacrifice and forgiveness. Thus Jews aren't necessarily wrong if they follow the law to a T, but they sure are missing the point.
Although you may think that the "faith" side of the faith vs works debate is the obvious and correct side, many folks around the world don't agree with you, but that doesn't make them non-Christian.
Well actually it does. Just go read what Jesus, the disciples, and Paul said.
When we die we are judged and this is it.
True, and Jesus will throw out our sentence if we believe in him. He will say "not guilty."
Judged based on what? I thought there weren't any rules? How can we be judged if everything is okay? In a court, when there is no law, the judge cannot make a decision.
But that's the whole point! Why didn't God create more beings whose 'very nature' was good, who didn't want to do evil? Why not make an Adam and Eve that didn't want to break rules?
Well apparently that comes with the territory and is just part of the nature of a free will free thinking being is that they could choose to do what God considers moral or they may do something God considers immoral. But if you create a being with a blank slate, then it could go either way could it not?
God has free will, in which case there is no problem with a being both having free will and yet never wanting to do evil. Therefore, God would have created free beings that didn't want to evil. After all, God dislikes evil and doesn't want it around. But It didn't, so we have a contradiction.
Well this is hard to answer since we know little about God. But I would say if God has always existed and always will (out of time) then he came with both free will and goodness. He didn't have to choose it. He didn't have to develop like we have to. He came as the final end package. But...
God doesn't have free will. Like I said, a robot.
God is omnipotent and anything is possible if he desired it. I've heard people say "Well God could never do this as he is Love, etc.". Nope...that's putting a chain around God. The correct answer is "God WOULD never do this as jhe is Love".
I stand to lose any possibility of appeasing any of the hundreds of other alleged gods with different sets of rules and requirements; I stand to lose my freedom to a system, managed and manipulated by powerful people, that is evolutionarily optimized not for my benefit but only for the continued survival and control of the system; and most of all I stand to reduce my ability to freely make reasoned ethical judgements.
All this for a miniscule chance at turning into an immortal couch potato after I die? Somehow, that just doesn't seem worth it.
My god requires that you not believe in god in order to achieve paradise. He wants you to make decisions on your own, independent of religious influence. He's a tough god, because he wants you to do all the work; you have to figure out the answers yourself. If you believe in god, he sends you to hell for cheating.
Better not believe in god, then. You'd better stop, or you'll be in big trouble!
Well now this is a challenge people have faced for millenia. How do you know which of the hundreds of religions (if any) are right? Well first off, you have to look at their beliefs. Which seems easier to believe, that there is one God, or 10,000 (and counting every year)? And also, which one makes more sense...a God of love and freedom, or one who will send you to hell if you don't bow down and worship him 5 times a day (and you better face a certain direction while you do it too!). And furthermore, maybe you could look into alledged evidence. The people of the day who were around Jesus never called him a magician or a sham when they saw him doing miracles. They usually used some religious law technicality (he can't heal people on the sabbath...thats a day of rest!). I've read hundreds of books on every religion and I chose Christianity and haven't regretted it. One of the best books out there is "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel in which he lays it all out exactly what evidence there is that Jesus was the real thing.
But I really have no control over whether I believe something or not. I either believe or I don't. I certainly can't choose to believe in God simply because there's a potential reward after dying.
Well actually you do. The first thing is to have a desire to believe. Ok so if you have that then you need help actually believing. Well one thing to do is to actually research it and learn about it. You can't believe in something unless you know about it. Secondly, you can try practicing the belief. By this I mean sitting down and praying to God to help reveal himself to you and help you believe. Maybe try that for a month and see what happens. All you got to lose is maybe 5 minutes every day. Also helpful would be to be around Christians, attending a Christian event, etc. If you do all of that then I seriuosly doubt you will walk away empty handed.
In my experience, the overwhelming majority of Christians, particularly the high-profile ones who are in positions of leadership *DO* believe this as well, and try very hard to make sure everyone else believes this.
Ah but that doesn't mean its true to Christianity anymore than those september 11th hijackers were being true to Islam. I am a devout Christian but do you think I put any value in what TV evangelists and the like have to say in between their constant pleas for money so they can build theirselves a new mansion?
As a Christian, this is the part of Fundamentalism that I find most objectionable. This idea of eternal damnation comes from the Greek mythos (the ancient Isreleis did not belive in an afterlife per se). This can be seen in the gospel of Luke, where the only time the Greek word hades is used is in the parable of the rich man and Lazardus (5 cent summary: Selfish rich man is tortured by fire in Hades, poor suffering man is in heaven).
No that is what you read into my sentence. I said if you don't believe you're going to hell. I didn't add "for everlasting punishment due to your sins". As I've stated elsewhere on this board, nobody will go to hell who did not choose it. The Lord doesn't want anyone to go there or be punished, but the fact is many will reject him and thus will end up there. I don't know what it will be like but I suspect their own misery and separation from God will worse than any flames and heat. But the fact remains that someone who does not believe in God surely cannot (maybe even would not want to) spent eternity in the Lord's presence. And someone who is not pure cannot either (remember when Christ forgives us he cleanses us).
Eventually, someone needs to invent a True-Chrstian-Detector device so that we can sort out the "real believers" from everyone else. Until then, I've only got one way to tell whether someone is a Christian, and that is to ask them:
Another good way is to look at their actions and personality as in "fruits of the spirit". I don't know the exact verse off hand but Paul discusses traits that show when someone is in touch with the holy spirit.
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No he's not saying other God's exist just that we should not worship other Gods. Men tend to try to do that, just look in the bible to see how the jews built and worshipped a golden calf while Moses was up on the mountain chatting with God. Many people worship other stuff to like money, cars, etc. God is saying not to do this. This is the same thing when God tells us to have no idols.
Christianity does exclude other religions. Check the Bible. Jesus says that he is the light and the truth and the only way to the father is through him. That's kindof specific don't you think?
There's nothing that says that repetetive rebirth isn't possible. That could be what heaven is. It's not like anyone knows. Ditto with the "eternal life/eternal death" thing. You don't know there's a difference, and I can easily believe that it's the same thing.
Christianity specifically teaches that there is an afterlife and a judgement and you get one chance at this life. It's scattered throughout the whole Bible, especially the new testament. Revelation has some good parts about people sleeping (dead) being raised and the like. Never anything about reincarnation, etc.
One says that it has a trunk and big ears and another that it has a muzzle and small pointy and hairy ears.
Yes, but what if the elephant says it has a trunk and two big ears, then it doesn't matter what the blind men say.
That's exactly what the Bible says...all animals were vegetarians. So why do they have fangs? Because they are different now...everything is. If the world was created and sustained by God, why would it be so hard for it to reflect the curse Adam and Eve's sin brought about?
Two reasons:
-Humans have free will and can screw things up (you heard this one)
-The world is fallen and cursed and thus our being independent of God messed everything else up too (as God created it all for us). See Genesis
From which Scripture do you get THAT belief?
Indeed, that sounds an awful lot like "good works earn your way into heaven" which the Bibles speaks against.
How can God be omnipotent and not have free will? I believe it would be more accurate to say God could commit evil, but he chooses not to because its not his nature. Otherwise you are putting limits on a limitless God.
Maybe you were only expecting "yes" rather than "no" or "not yet" or "yes, but do this...". God does what is best for us, not necessarily what our heart desires. I have yet to receive the billion dollars I asked for.
And "friends" of mine who were also supposedly on the same wavelength and also talking with God for advice stabbed me in the back, ridiculed me, etc.
Fellow fallable humans. Don't put your trust in them, put it in the Lord. Your compliant is what they did against you, not what he did.
Hmm if the New Testament were fiction why did so many people fall for it when the very people mentioned in the book were still alive? I mean, they could have gone and seen the stuff for theirselves. They could have pulled out Jesus' body and said "Look, here it is. He is no God." You might read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel...it goes over all of this much better than I ever could
Of course true Christian theology states that those who don't believe do go to hell and live eternity apart from God. The reason for this is God values us so much he will not destroy us. You'll either be in heaven or hell but never destroyed. Now what hell is - that is open to interpretation. We know for sure though that it is eternity apart from God. Whether there is flames and brimstone...I doubt it will make much of a difference.
Of course it is. I have free will right now. I could go out and murder someone, and I'll be punished. I might get life in prison, or maybe execution. Free will is simply defined as the ability to choose...free choice. Or by the ability to make free choices without them being constrained by external circumstances (like fate).
You do understand that many millions of people have lived throughout history and left no tangible proof that they existed?
There may be little evidence of God but there is some evidence of Jesus Christ who spent his life claiming to be God and backing that up not only through his actions but via miracles that nobody else could do. You might read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It's pretty good.
Who can say? to the Lord a post is like a thousand posts, and a thousand posts is like a post. Although no doubt you've been having to hear Christian beliefs for a long time and probably will continue to, long before an SUV kills you. By the way, you're talking about Allah here. He will no doubt strike you dead after just a few posts, or at least have you slaughtered like the infidel you are. Now Jehovah won't do that.
It is actually quite interesting to read what the bible says about this. For example, it says if you speak in tounges you better have someone sitting beside you translating it, otherwise shut up. Likewise, if you do a prophecy it better come true or you're a liar and not speaking for God (too bad some sects predicting the end of the world don't get this). Personally I don't care for these churches where people convulse, scream, pass out, etc. The Lord isn't putting on a circus...much of this these people do theirselves and is not "gifts"
Well two issues here... One is that many times these dieties exhibit traits and personalities that conflict with each other. One being would not do that. Secondly, just because something is similar doesn't make it identical. I could say two people are white, male, programmers, like computers and perl, etc, etc. and yet they are two distinct people (or maybe one doesn't even exist).
Indeed, how can we ever know God?
By Christian theology: We can only know about God via what he has revealed in his word, his dealings in history, and his prophet. Now KNOWING God is entirely different. For that we are told the holy spirit will dwell inside of us and that is how we will know him - via a one-on-one relationship.
He gave us a wealth of experimental data. We call it the Universe.
Of course the universe in and of itself can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, and thus science can neither provide or disprove him. It ultimately comes down to faith (which means, believing and trusting in God even though you can't directly see and hear him)
How do you know that every religion says different things? They all fundamentally say "Be nice to each other". And every one stresses some spirituality. Isn't that what Christ said is important? You're quibbling over details.
Hmm, well Islam says that in its marketing materials but there is an awful lot of conquest, killing of the infidels, etc. in the Quaran. So it is a god of Love or War? Likewise what little I know of buddahism, etc. seems to have absolutely nothing to do with God but with man seeking the path of enlighenment. Well that is a lot different than Christianity that stresses we were created by God to worship him and be in fellowship with him.
Want a test? Sure. Take a child. Take him to as many religious ceremonies as you can think of. Now ask him or her what the philosophical difference is between them. I'd bet that he won't be able to tell you. (I know. I was one of those kids.) This isn't because he's stupid, or he doesn't understand - it's because you've become stupid about this kinda thing, and you don't understand that they're all saying the same thing.
Geez I don't know where to start. Get a book on world religions and then try to tell me they all say the same thing. They don't. Not even close. And its a lot more than small differences. Also a child isn't a good example, what does a child know? They know they are sitting in church being bored and would like to go get an icecream cone. Do you think they are listening to or understanding the sermon or anything else? If they are then they must be smart because I certainly wasn't when I was young.
And as for God contradicting himself, He's not ! That's what the elephant story explains! What you see as contradictions are merely different people seeing God in different ways, and then mangling and destroying the religion due to human greed, envy, and suffering. Every religion is like that - Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Muslim, Judaism, Wiccan, all of them. But all of them have the same kernel of truth in them.
Actually this doesn't have anything to do with the elephant story. Sure, if all we knew of religion was what man had figured out. But you will find in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and probably others statements which are portrayed as the direct commandments and direct word of God. So if God is talking then, we're not feeling up an elephant but rather listening to the truth as he says it.
I think you're insane to believe that God has a list of "by-laws". What about those who were slaughtered during the Crusades? They heard of Christianity - it was at the end of a sword. To believe that up in Heaven, God's got a list of "exceptions" - that's crazy. If that were true, every lawyer would go to heaven just so they could work for God.
I said if someone was incapable of understanding or accepting Christ then the Lord will deal with them appropriately. He is just and he is love. Those two qualities would not allow someone to be punished for what they are not guilty of.
No - if you believe in a salvation and damnation, it better be independent of religion if it's universal. Otherwise God is nothing more than another human being. It has to be some basic simple fact about human existence.
I don't understand this. What rules says salvation and damnation cannot be part of religion? If a religion says "God created you. He'll decide how you spend eternity". That seems to fit religion very well.
Yes he did make it that way. But its not unjust. Unjust being defined as "unfair". It is actually quite fair...you reap what you sow, you receive punishment for what you did. Unless you believe in Christ, then the sentence is thrown out since Christ took our punishment himself. Seems pretty just to me.
Your logic is bad. How does it follow that since I don't believe in him, I don't need him?
Hmm, so you've just said you don't need him, yet you're complaining that by Christian doctrine, you'll go to hell and be seperated by him forever (as in being unjust?).
Or is he just a spoiled brat. Just because I don't believe in Jesus, it doesn't mean I'd rather not go to hell, yet Jesus would refuse to help me? Doesn't sound like the Jesus I know.
Jesus will indeed help you if you ask him. Of course you have to ask him this side of eternity.
Well if you take it on its historical basis alone, then finding evidence to back up the historical information would add to its credibility. Thus if you can provide reasonable evidence that Christ existed, and that he performed the miracles he is said to have done, then you would put some credence into what he actually said. See "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.
This is true. That is why Christianity stresses that we can never "convert" someone. It's only God that can do the converting. But it is a Christian's responsibility to share the good news and let God take it from there. Because its the Holy Spirit that does it...no well-formed argument or elegant speech will do anything.
that is, you point to your book and say, "see, no one comes to the father except through christ" and then wonder how a muslim fails to accept that, but it doesn't surprise you in the least when a muslim says to you "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger" and you fail to accept *that* as true. If you died today and Allah said to you, "You read on slashdot that there was no God but Me. And yet you failed to believe. I condemn you to everlasting torment!" would you accept that as a fair judgement?
In the same bible it says God is patient and slow to anger. In other words, He gives us about a zillion chances to believe in him. He isn't going to condemn someone because they ignored a post of Slashdot.
Well actually I was referring to people who come to my church, sit on the pews every Sunday and are only Christian for about an hour every week. Their actions, their morals, etc. don't reflect Christ's teachings.
I'm a Mormon (who *are* Christian, contrary to what your preacher told you) and routinely hear this silliness from born-agains and other myopic new testament believers, and frankly, I am sick and tired of hearing it. May I ask, what do you think the word means?
Well I was never thinking of Mormans but since you bring the issue up I do have some questions. As I understand it Mormanism directly contracts the Bible. For instance, Mormans do not believe in the trinity (one God in three persons) but rather that the father and son are seperate beings. They also believe God was once flesh, that Jesus was his literal son, and that we will all day become just like (read: equal) to God. Now perhaps some of this is misunderstanding but many "anti-Morman" books and websites state this as official Morman teachings. I cannot say for myself since I have not looked into it first hand.
Where do you think it comes from? If we ignore doctrine altogether, then all it means is someone who follows Christ in some fashion. That's it. No more is required. You don't have to believe most of what he said, or even believe that he existed. You just have to follow his teachings in some way. Just because I don't follow your interpretation of things, doesn't mean that I am not a Christian.
Potentially. But if your beliefs directly contradict the Bible then how can they be true christianity? I'm not talking whether you will be saved or not (as you probably will) but rather what it means to be christian.
And saying that I give Christians a bad name because of it is so insulting and rude, as to be a non-Christian act in itself.
Like I said, many people give Christianity a bad name. Just watch some of these evangelists sometime.
Christ himself said, take my name upon you. That is what I've done, and I am Christian, no matter what you say.
Yes but He also said beware of false teachings and to follow him. And for me, that means looking primarily to what He said and what his disciples said. If something disagrees with what they said, then its wrong.
And maybe you missed something in the Old Testament (which is part of the Bible, and not just Psalms and Proverbs, the whole thing), but Judaism is true in many ways. Jesus came and corrected some people who were nitpicking too much, but they weren't wrong in every way. The Old Testament is as much a part of the Bible as the New.
This is true but if you understand it from a Christian viewpoint then it is this... Christ came to fulfill Judaism and not to abolish it. The laws given to Moses were meant to show man that he can never earn his way to heaven and that if you break even one law you're in trouble. It's supposed to show the need for the messiah and ultimately Christ's sacrifice and forgiveness. Thus Jews aren't necessarily wrong if they follow the law to a T, but they sure are missing the point.
Although you may think that the "faith" side of the faith vs works debate is the obvious and correct side, many folks around the world don't agree with you, but that doesn't make them non-Christian.
Well actually it does. Just go read what Jesus, the disciples, and Paul said.
When we die we are judged and this is it.
True, and Jesus will throw out our sentence if we believe in him. He will say "not guilty."
Judged based on what? I thought there weren't any rules? How can we be judged if everything is okay? In a court, when there is no law, the judge cannot make a decision.
See above.
Well apparently that comes with the territory and is just part of the nature of a free will free thinking being is that they could choose to do what God considers moral or they may do something God considers immoral. But if you create a being with a blank slate, then it could go either way could it not?
God has free will, in which case there is no problem with a being both having free will and yet never wanting to do evil. Therefore, God would have created free beings that didn't want to evil. After all, God dislikes evil and doesn't want it around. But It didn't, so we have a contradiction.
Well this is hard to answer since we know little about God. But I would say if God has always existed and always will (out of time) then he came with both free will and goodness. He didn't have to choose it. He didn't have to develop like we have to. He came as the final end package. But...
God doesn't have free will. Like I said, a robot.
God is omnipotent and anything is possible if he desired it. I've heard people say "Well God could never do this as he is Love, etc.". Nope...that's putting a chain around God. The correct answer is "God WOULD never do this as jhe is Love".
I stand to lose any possibility of appeasing any of the hundreds of other alleged gods with different sets of rules and requirements; I stand to lose my freedom to a system, managed and manipulated by powerful people, that is evolutionarily optimized not for my benefit but only for the continued survival and control of the system; and most of all I stand to reduce my ability to freely make reasoned ethical judgements.
All this for a miniscule chance at turning into an immortal couch potato after I die? Somehow, that just doesn't seem worth it.
My god requires that you not believe in god in order to achieve paradise. He wants you to make decisions on your own, independent of religious influence. He's a tough god, because he wants you to do all the work; you have to figure out the answers yourself. If you believe in god, he sends you to hell for cheating.
Better not believe in god, then. You'd better stop, or you'll be in big trouble!
Well now this is a challenge people have faced for millenia. How do you know which of the hundreds of religions (if any) are right? Well first off, you have to look at their beliefs. Which seems easier to believe, that there is one God, or 10,000 (and counting every year)? And also, which one makes more sense...a God of love and freedom, or one who will send you to hell if you don't bow down and worship him 5 times a day (and you better face a certain direction while you do it too!). And furthermore, maybe you could look into alledged evidence. The people of the day who were around Jesus never called him a magician or a sham when they saw him doing miracles. They usually used some religious law technicality (he can't heal people on the sabbath...thats a day of rest!). I've read hundreds of books on every religion and I chose Christianity and haven't regretted it. One of the best books out there is "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel in which he lays it all out exactly what evidence there is that Jesus was the real thing.
Well actually you do. The first thing is to have a desire to believe. Ok so if you have that then you need help actually believing. Well one thing to do is to actually research it and learn about it. You can't believe in something unless you know about it. Secondly, you can try practicing the belief. By this I mean sitting down and praying to God to help reveal himself to you and help you believe. Maybe try that for a month and see what happens. All you got to lose is maybe 5 minutes every day. Also helpful would be to be around Christians, attending a Christian event, etc. If you do all of that then I seriuosly doubt you will walk away empty handed.
Ah but that doesn't mean its true to Christianity anymore than those september 11th hijackers were being true to Islam. I am a devout Christian but do you think I put any value in what TV evangelists and the like have to say in between their constant pleas for money so they can build theirselves a new mansion?
No that is what you read into my sentence. I said if you don't believe you're going to hell. I didn't add "for everlasting punishment due to your sins". As I've stated elsewhere on this board, nobody will go to hell who did not choose it. The Lord doesn't want anyone to go there or be punished, but the fact is many will reject him and thus will end up there. I don't know what it will be like but I suspect their own misery and separation from God will worse than any flames and heat. But the fact remains that someone who does not believe in God surely cannot (maybe even would not want to) spent eternity in the Lord's presence. And someone who is not pure cannot either (remember when Christ forgives us he cleanses us).
Another good way is to look at their actions and personality as in "fruits of the spirit". I don't know the exact verse off hand but Paul discusses traits that show when someone is in touch with the holy spirit.