>> As long as they don't break any laws, >> there is no reason for me to do anything. > > If you are talking about the door-knob turner, > they ARE breaking the law. > It is called prowling. And Trespass. > And if they keep doing it, stalking
What LAWS do I break, entering a door beliving it to be my destination?
What LAWS do I break, if as a janator if I check the building for open doors.
Do I break any LAW doing the same as a security guard, friendly neightbor, police and so on.
There are reasonable limits to any action, and it varies depending on the situation. But you are obviously far from realising this, in this and in any exampel you have used.
I heard a rumor once that a fire victim sued his savior for breaking into his house, I never belived this story to be true but... If someone told me that you where this victim, I would belive it after reading this tread.
> Resolution is possible with reasonable people. > ORBS are not reasonable with their methology.
Unfortunately, your methology of "shoot first, be reasonable later" aren't as good as you think.
> They blindly attack hosts,
The only blind attack I've seen so far is yours, and it's against the fabric of reason and judgement.
> and when asked for proof as to why my host was attacked, > they can provide NO PROOF OF SPAM > so that I might figure out how to stop that > 'alledged spam' in the future.
You logic is not only flawed, it's lame.
WHY should they give "proof of spam" when they are surveing for Open Relays?
WHY do you make up fact to support you argument? (Is it to weak to stand on it's own "feet"?)
[taken from another tread] > This behaviour is as annoying and rude when a spammer does it, > as it is when ORBS does it. > The difference is the spammer tries once. ORBS keeps trying.
This is, as every statment you make, not true!
SPAMMERS port-scan entiry NET-BLOCKS, ORBS doesn't do this. (no matter how much you belive it to be so)
Spammers won't stop ABUSEing your server, even if you try asking og pleading. ORBS stops if you ask them to, and add you to their list as "asked not to be tested".
Spammer try over and over til they find an Open Relay, then they ABUSE this security problem. ORBS report it, the DON'T ATTACK or ABUSE it! (Contrary to you endless wordtwisting, this is far from what you are telling everyone.)
The same thing happens when you are using IRC, when you connect the server, another server test one or more port on your computer. This to check for security problems, either to warn or block you from connecting.
Same thing happens when using other services, they send you ident datagrams to confirm your "identity" and might reject your connection.
If YOU don't like this, don't act like a crybaby, please unplugg your computer insted. YOU try over and over to fuse false accusation against ORBS without any proof. Even when confrontet of false statements YOU ignore it, making YOU WORSE than SPAMMERS! Right now, YOU are the net-terrorist!
You missunderstand the point of the list, it lists Open Relay servers.....
If they compromized the list with delays and leaving out "freinds", it would be useless and it would be UNFAIR!
ORBS provide information to help you on their web page, ORBS can if they have the resources give you tips aswell. BUT... You must understand the the problem of fixing an Open Relay server is the responsibility of the administor, and not ORBS or anyone associated with them.
BTW: You dog-story just could make it trough my "abnormal reality" filter.
I have devotion to the truth, your outright LIES doesn't change this. And while your socalled truth are based on lies, I'll find other truths based on facts.
Your conduct in this tread is proof enough for me that whatever ORBS or any other organization has done to you, it can never warrant such bashing or rude behaviour.
As long as they don't break any laws, there is no reason for me to do anything.
As long as their intentions are good, there is no way i would mind.
As long as they respected my wishes when asked to stop checking my doors/windows, even if it resulting in being publicly listed as "wan't let us check his door, it might be open", I can't realy see why this should bother me.
Besides this statement it's more and more obvious that ORBS have somehow hurt your feelings, seriously you should try to resolv this matter insted of turning news and chat into your personal battleground for vendetta.
If Police are allowed to use force to stop perpetrators, you are allowed to do so too. There will be different details for both that are regulated by law, but on a basic level you are allowed to do the same as the police. When your operation increase you get more responsibility, but the resposibilities for those who interact with any you will also increase as you gain authority. (I not saying that ORBS is an authority now, or that should be treated as one). If you decided to start a security company, laws would change your authorative powers but law would also regulate what people can do with, for and against such companies and persons working for them.
> Users trust them to provide even-handed and consistent service.
I feel the many of the complaints against ORBS are due to lack of knowledge on how ORBS operate, and due to the attitude of the people working at ORBS.
I feel that the attitude is largely due all the people giving them responsibilities they certainly don't have or is in any way connected to being listed in ORBS. This seems to be linked to the lack of knowledge often aswell, things like "Why want't ORBS - remove "me" from the list when I ask them." - remove "me" from the list when I block ORBS and have no Open Relays." - remove "me" give me a few extra days before listing me so I can fix the problem." - give "me" proof of SPAM."
There is also some complains about the intrusivness of there test, which I feel is a very subjective opinions. Even tough Open Relay checking can be used to find servers to abuse, any checking MUST be defined be the (re)action and intention of the user/org doing it.
> Say you run a network. > You don't want certain groups accessing your network, say ORBS. > It's your network, so its your prerogative, right?
True, as long as you accept my perrogative to use any list I feel is needed for security.
> However, ORBS claims to be offering a viable > service by maintaining a list of offending > open relays on the Internet.
True, and to be "viable" you must test the servers.
> Say that you don't run any open relays, > but you don't let ORBS check your servers > as above. Is it fair for them to list all > your addresses as open relays?
The static listings imply WHY it's listed, so can see if it's realy an Open Realy or just listed for blocking ORBS.
Even the unexpecting sender from that block will get an correct error message, like: "553 above.net has multiple open relays and has blocked the ORBS tester."
> The way I see it is that you have a responsibility for your network; > ORBS has taken on much more responsibility than that, > whether they like it or not
The amount of responseblity a network ADMIN is losing, is ONLY controlled by the ADMIN himself. If he doesn't understand what he is doing, YES then any list will take control away from any ADMIN.
>> They first send you a note saying your door is unlocked, > > And what gives them the right to even be TRYING my door?
Does people have to have written autherazation to send you mail, send mail to your server, use your doorbell, can they call you or..?..
> In the physical world, someone who goes from house to house trying doorknobs is called a prowler.
Strange, someone doing that in MY world is usualy called friendly neightbor, cleaning agenties, police or security and compared to criminals they are much better liked.
> Ahh, so the claims of testing based on spam complaints is bogus
NO there has never been a claim of testing based on spam, this is an imagination of your mind.
Only that servers be nominated for checking by someone who found a mailservers behaviour suspect.
I find your arguement with ORBS less suitable for public chat/news/mail, it smells quite biased and frankly unfair.
The wording net-terrorist is in itself rude, calling ORBS's actions rude in several of your postings today doesn't realy make me take your case seriously. You should be more concerned about your own behaviour, your high-nose attitude could make any admin block your mail, server or network.
>> The more serveres using ORBS protection, the faster/better the result will come. > > The endorsement of rude behavior (baseless port scans) helps no one.
Since ORBS testing is neither PORT SCAN or BASELESS, I would have to say your agrument makes no sense.
The spreading of false information and halftruths surely can't help anyone either.
1) I agree that this "can" be a problem, but seriusly if an ISP allowed SPAM to be openly relayed through their servers. The customer must be instructed to fix it ASAP!
2) This is the BEST part of RSS!
3) This never helps the customer, the open relay mailserver will wrongly translate the error to "unknown user". Even when the REAL error message is listed close by you can bet your "sweet ass" they wan't understand or even locate this message. If they call to complain explaining is often waisted, and as long as they don't send SPAM themselvs they can't understand that someone did.
I feel sorry for you in some way, but this could be avoided with smarter solutions. (Those who sold your "mailsystem" should have been force-fed their own software-package)
But I must blame your for not taking the time and resources to fix this server once and for all, it should not be such a big hazle. Some type of authentication, or DNS manipulation to give them correct mailserver IP when they travel (their ISP mailserver).
You forget that ORBS is an Open Relay list, and NOT a ANTI-SPAM list.
The reasons for listing those who deny or block ORBS tester is obvious, if you can't determind if their secure they are presumed unsecure.
Would you open your FireWall for unknown traffic, to find out later that you have been hacked? Hardly, you would block everything and then open the traffic you knew and needed to allow.
> As a behavior-modification tool, the ORBS is useless.
I disagree.
After using ORBS for almost a year, I've helped many admins fix their mail-servers. (a small proof of it's power) The more serveres using ORBS protection, the faster/better the result will come.
The court is no smart way to solve problems with lack of competence and understanding of mail-server administration.
1. ORBS does not to perform any PORT-SCANS what-so-ever! 2. ORBS perform SMTP relay checks on mail-servers which users nominate after suspect behaviour. 3. ORBS only block proven Open Relay servers, and server which ORBS can't check. 4. BOZO-admins who treaten ORBS with lawsuits and other bogus stuff gets promptly rejected, as it should be if you ask me.
MAPS doesn't protect my servers from unwanted SPAM at all, they only tell me from which server i got my SPAM yesterday.
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>> As long as they don't break any laws,
>> there is no reason for me to do anything.
>
> If you are talking about the door-knob turner,
> they ARE breaking the law.
> It is called prowling. And Trespass.
> And if they keep doing it, stalking
What LAWS do I break, entering a door
beliving it to be my destination?
What LAWS do I break, if as a janator if I
check the building for open doors.
Do I break any LAW doing the same as a security
guard, friendly neightbor, police and so on.
There are reasonable limits to any action,
and it varies depending on the situation.
But you are obviously far from realising this,
in this and in any exampel you have used.
I heard a rumor once that a fire victim sued
his savior for breaking into his house,
I never belived this story to be true but...
If someone told me that you where this victim,
I would belive it after reading this tread.
> Resolution is possible with reasonable people.
> ORBS are not reasonable with their methology.
Unfortunately, your methology of "shoot first, be reasonable later" aren't as good as you think.
> They blindly attack hosts,
The only blind attack I've seen so far is yours,
and it's against the fabric of reason and judgement.
> and when asked for proof as to why my host was attacked,
> they can provide NO PROOF OF SPAM
> so that I might figure out how to stop that
> 'alledged spam' in the future.
You logic is not only flawed, it's lame.
WHY should they give "proof of spam" when they
are surveing for Open Relays?
WHY do you make up fact to support you argument?
(Is it to weak to stand on it's own "feet"?)
[taken from another tread]
> This behaviour is as annoying and rude when a spammer does it,
> as it is when ORBS does it.
> The difference is the spammer tries once. ORBS keeps trying.
This is, as every statment you make, not true!
SPAMMERS port-scan entiry NET-BLOCKS,
ORBS doesn't do this.
(no matter how much you belive it to be so)
Spammers won't stop ABUSEing your server,
even if you try asking og pleading.
ORBS stops if you ask them to,
and add you to their list as "asked not to be tested".
Spammer try over and over til they find an Open Relay,
then they ABUSE this security problem.
ORBS report it, the DON'T ATTACK or ABUSE it!
(Contrary to you endless wordtwisting,
this is far from what you are telling everyone.)
The same thing happens when you are using IRC,
when you connect the server, another server test one or more port on your computer.
This to check for security problems,
either to warn or block you from connecting.
Same thing happens when using other services,
they send you ident datagrams to confirm your
"identity" and might reject your connection.
If YOU don't like this, don't act like a crybaby,
please unplugg your computer insted.
YOU try over and over to fuse false accusation
against ORBS without any proof.
Even when confrontet of false statements
YOU ignore it, making YOU WORSE than SPAMMERS!
Right now, YOU are the net-terrorist!
You missunderstand the point of the list,
it lists Open Relay servers.....
If they compromized the list with delays and leaving out "freinds", it would be useless and it would be UNFAIR!
ORBS provide information to help you on their web page,
ORBS can if they have the resources give you tips aswell.
BUT...
You must understand the the problem of fixing an
Open Relay server is the responsibility of the administor,
and not ORBS or anyone associated with them.
BTW: You dog-story just could make it trough my "abnormal reality" filter.
I have devotion to the truth, your outright LIES doesn't change this.
And while your socalled truth are based on lies, I'll find other truths based on facts.
Your conduct in this tread is proof enough for me that whatever ORBS or any other organization has done to you, it can never warrant such bashing or rude behaviour.
You are still having problems understanding the differsence between reason and proof.
As long as they don't break any laws,
there is no reason for me to do anything.
As long as their intentions are good,
there is no way i would mind.
As long as they respected my wishes when asked to stop checking my doors/windows,
even if it resulting in being publicly listed as "wan't let us check his door, it might be open",
I can't realy see why this should bother me.
Besides this statement it's more and more obvious that ORBS have somehow hurt your feelings,
seriously you should try to resolv this matter insted of turning news and chat into your personal battleground for vendetta.
As you surely understand...
Locking your door is LEGAL!
Killing your neightbor is IL-LEGAL!
... I hope that make things clear, Global or NOT.
Yes I agree, but the basic element still reamins.
If Police are allowed to use force to stop perpetrators, you are allowed to do so too.
There will be different details for both that are regulated by law, but on a basic level you are allowed to do the same as the police.
When your operation increase you get more responsibility, but the resposibilities for those who interact with any you will also increase as you gain authority.
(I not saying that ORBS is an authority now,
or that should be treated as one).
If you decided to start a security company,
laws would change your authorative powers
but law would also regulate what people can do with, for and against such companies and persons working for them.
> Users trust them to provide even-handed and consistent service.
I feel the many of the complaints against ORBS are due to lack of knowledge on how ORBS operate,
and due to the attitude of the people working at ORBS.
I feel that the attitude is largely due all the people giving them responsibilities they certainly don't have or is in any way connected to being listed in ORBS.
This seems to be linked to the lack of knowledge often aswell, things like "Why want't ORBS
- remove "me" from the list when I ask them."
- remove "me" from the list when I block ORBS and have no Open Relays."
- remove "me" give me a few extra days before listing me so I can fix the problem."
- give "me" proof of SPAM."
There is also some complains about the intrusivness of there test,
which I feel is a very subjective opinions.
Even tough Open Relay checking can be used to find servers to abuse,
any checking MUST be defined be the (re)action and intention of the user/org doing it.
Since you can't differ PORT-SCAN from sending E-MAIL for Open Relay testing,
or even can't differ "reason" from "proof" you have A big problem.
You might wanna buy a dictionary!
Your claims of net-terrorism is funny at most.
> Say you run a network.
> You don't want certain groups accessing your network, say ORBS.
> It's your network, so its your prerogative, right?
True, as long as you accept my perrogative to use any list I feel is needed for security.
> However, ORBS claims to be offering a viable
> service by maintaining a list of offending
> open relays on the Internet.
True, and to be "viable" you must test the servers.
> Say that you don't run any open relays,
> but you don't let ORBS check your servers
> as above. Is it fair for them to list all
> your addresses as open relays?
The static listings imply WHY it's listed,
so can see if it's realy an Open Realy or just listed for blocking ORBS.
Even the unexpecting sender from that block
will get an correct error message, like:
"553 above.net has multiple open relays and has blocked the ORBS tester."
> The way I see it is that you have a responsibility for your network;
> ORBS has taken on much more responsibility than that,
> whether they like it or not
The amount of responseblity a network ADMIN is losing,
is ONLY controlled by the ADMIN himself.
If he doesn't understand what he is doing,
YES then any list will take control away from any ADMIN.
For the n'th time!
ORBS does NOT scan networks,
they only test nominated servers.
Regards...
>> They first send you a note saying your door is unlocked,
..?..
>
> And what gives them the right to even be TRYING my door?
Does people have to have written autherazation to send you mail, send mail to your server, use your doorbell, can they call you or
> In the physical world, someone who goes from house to house trying doorknobs is called a prowler.
Strange, someone doing that in MY world is usualy called friendly neightbor, cleaning agenties, police or security and compared to criminals they are much better liked.
> Ahh, so the claims of testing based on spam complaints is bogus
NO there has never been a claim of testing based on spam, this is an imagination of your mind.
Only that servers be nominated for checking by someone who found a mailservers behaviour suspect.
Regards...
I find your arguement with ORBS less suitable for public chat/news/mail, it smells quite biased and frankly unfair.
The wording net-terrorist is in itself rude, calling ORBS's actions rude in several of your postings today doesn't realy make me take your case seriously.
You should be more concerned about your own behaviour, your high-nose attitude could make any admin block your mail, server or network.
Regards...
No, it's more like "withholding evidence".
Regards...
> ORBS is unable to provide any PROOF that my host was used for spam.
They are still not a anti-spam list,
they are however a Open Relay list.
WHY should they prove this then ???
> And telling the admins at ORBS you are going to block them because you find their behavoir rude gets you listed in the ORBS database.
If you are free to block them,
how can you say they can't block you?
>> BOZO-admins who treaten ORBS with lawsuits and other bogus stuff
>
> Oh, so if you find ORBS rude, you should get blocked?
Please, if you like shuffeling...
...shuffel cards and not my statments.
My statement was reffering to treats of lawsuits against ORBS, i still think ORBS should reject them no matter the treats.
Regards...
The word "listed" should have been used insted of "blocked", but this does not I agree with you.
You say blocking ORBS is ok,
but it isn't ok for ORBS to block anyone.
Seriusly, you must be kidding!
Regards
>> The more serveres using ORBS protection, the faster/better the result will come.
>
> The endorsement of rude behavior (baseless port scans) helps no one.
Since ORBS testing is neither PORT SCAN or BASELESS, I would have to say your agrument makes no sense.
The spreading of false information and halftruths surely can't help anyone either.
Regards
Obviusly you have a flawed brain.
Not seing the difference in testing and abusing makes you unsuitable to questioning anyones logic!
Regards...
You are talking politics, something you obviously no nothing about.
Question:
Ever read any customer/ISP agreements?
Please do, spesially the legal part!
Regards...
1)
I agree that this "can" be a problem, but seriusly if an ISP allowed SPAM to be openly relayed through their servers. The customer must be instructed to fix it ASAP!
2)
This is the BEST part of RSS!
3)
This never helps the customer, the open relay mailserver will wrongly translate the error to "unknown user". Even when the REAL error message is listed close by you can bet your "sweet ass" they wan't understand or even locate this message. If they call to complain explaining is often waisted, and as long as they don't send SPAM themselvs they can't understand that someone did.
Regards...
I vote they Rule!
They stopped you from relaying mail from an Open Relay, and thats always nice.
Regards...
I feel sorry for you in some way,
but this could be avoided with smarter solutions.
(Those who sold your "mailsystem" should have been force-fed their own software-package)
But I must blame your for not taking the time and resources to fix this server once and for all,
it should not be such a big hazle.
Some type of authentication, or DNS manipulation to give them correct mailserver IP when they travel (their ISP mailserver).
Regards...
You forget that ORBS is an Open Relay list, and NOT a ANTI-SPAM list.
The reasons for listing those who deny or block ORBS tester is obvious, if you can't determind
if their secure they are presumed unsecure.
Would you open your FireWall for unknown traffic, to find out later that you have been hacked?
Hardly, you would block everything and then open
the traffic you knew and needed to allow.
Regards...
> As a behavior-modification tool, the ORBS is useless.
I disagree.
After using ORBS for almost a year,
I've helped many admins fix their mail-servers.
(a small proof of it's power)
The more serveres using ORBS protection,
the faster/better the result will come.
The court is no smart way to solve problems
with lack of competence and understanding
of mail-server administration.
Regards...
Your statement is uther BULLSHIT!
1. ORBS does not to perform any PORT-SCANS what-so-ever!
2. ORBS perform SMTP relay checks on mail-servers which users nominate after suspect behaviour.
3. ORBS only block proven Open Relay servers, and server which ORBS can't check.
4. BOZO-admins who treaten ORBS with lawsuits and other bogus stuff gets promptly rejected,
as it should be if you ask me.
MAPS doesn't protect my servers from unwanted SPAM at all, they only tell me from which server
i got my SPAM yesterday.
I like ORBS, MAPS is far from sufficient.
Regards...
Don't fool yourself, child!
Regards...