Considering I am one of the voting members of the KDE FreeQt Foundation (no Widget there), I'm amazed to discover that we need unanymous vote.
BTW: If you want free Qt working on win32, all you need to do is port the X version. Despite what misinformed people say, the QPL says nothing about platforms.
What Corel is doing, is that they are NOT giving binaries to anyone under 18.
The GPL does NOT say that you have to give binaries to anyone who asks you. It simply says that if you give them binaries, you have to give them source.
Now, As long as you are 18, you can get binaries from Corel, and you can also get sources from Corel.
In what specific way are they breaking any license?
They are just not redistributing their GPL-based product, which is a long stablished right: consider in-house packages based on GPLd code.
Further, does Corel say that if you are over 18 and get their package you can not give it to a minor?
If you had seen the number of people who end in a hospital with eye injuries because of corks every christmas you would really really want them not to sue you.
"Think of it this way: it makes no more sense to provide documentation for a GUI solely through that GUI than would it make sense to provide documentation on how to use a Braille reader only using Braille-encoded "print".
Think of it this way: the KDE docs are not solely available through a GUI so critizicing KDE for making the docs solely available through a GUI makes even less sense.
"What you aren't understanding is that to a Unix person, if the documentation is GUI-accessible only, it doesn't count."
HTML documentation, as the one included by default with KWM is not "GUI-accessible only". You can read it using a series of text based readers, ranging from cat, to less, to w3m, to emacs. So, this point is simply unexistant.
In fact, latest unix versions, such as SCO unixware 7, include a handy viewer for HTML docs, called "man". If your man is broken and doesn't support that, fix it.
Besides, who are you to speak in the name of "unix people"???? I have used unix for years, use nothing but unix, and don't share your opinion. Does it make me "non-unix people" somehow?
As for if Winix is evil or not, I don't give a damn, considering Winix is a term you are inventing to cover an object you can define as you wish. If you want to define it to be evil, that is solely an issue for yourself.
Those emacs users can easily go to the KDE control center and change the binding to something they like.
Now, notice how it is kwm the one that is flexible and friendly to other programs. How would you change emacs to not interfere with kwm? I bet it is a whole lot harder.
In keybinding matters, emacs is a bag full of elbows.
"I don't like the doc format kwm installs" != "kwm is undocumented". If you gonna gripe, gripe in ways that can be reasonably understood.
"The point on the keybinding is that only a Windows user would guess it."
Not only windows users. An enlightenment user will guess it. A KDE user will guess it. A fvwm95 user will guess it. A qvwm user will guess it. A icewm user will guess it. All of them are not windows users, so you are just wrong.
A twm user will not guess it, but then again, a twm user will not guess ANY OTHER key combination either, right?
"window ring bindings are hardly standard" oh, alt-tab is used by what? 80% of all the GUI users in the world? That's fairly standard, even if only defacto.
"Maybe the FRONT key, although that should probably just be raise, or raise-lower toggle."
The FRONT key only exists for people using Sun keyboards. Making it the default when 99% of the keyboards where the program can be used does not have a FRONT key would be either idiotic, or intentionally annoying. Intentional annoyances are evil. So, probably not a good idea.
It would be the equivalent of making the "less than" operator in perl be "%", just to be different from Visual Basic.
It may surprise you, but I live in a half million inhabitants city where there is no used computer store, 150KM away from a million inhabitants one with no used computer store. And yes, I usually consider this a civilized area:-)
I went through this very same thing less than a year ago. No computer store would sell me that memory for less than $30 the 4MB stick, recycled from an old computer.
Chris, despite what you seem to believe, it is perfectly possible to disagree with you and not be wrong, not be ignorant, know what I'm taking about and not being based on prejudice.
Re:*g* agh! I've been Robertoed! ;)
on
KDE 2.0 in Action
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· Score: 2
Disclaimer: I am far from "top" anything, and wether you want to feel insulted by what I say or not, I'm not sure I can fix, since I don;t think I was insulting. Whatever.
"It _is_ a matter of thinking." Nonsense. You can't judge without experiencing.
People hate unfamiliar interfaces. If you feel insulted by having that generalization applied to you, then I'd say you are too easily insulted to be worth arguing with.
You are finding fault on KDE and GNOME at the same time for not being original and for not being identical to MACos. That's schizocriticism.
KDE does make an effort to present a coherent representation of the computer. If you find the effort a failure, that's a whole different thing.
"I have never seen _any_ file manager, other than the MacOS Finder, that behaves as though the user's placement of an icon or object is in any way significant or worthy of notice. It's always 'and now we sort everything and line it up in neat rows, because we can'. I _realise_ that's what everybody but MacOS does, but can't you see that it screws up people's orientation? That's not how a desk behaves. "
This paragraph by itself shows how prejudiced you are. Face it: your computer is not a desktop. You are not finding here that KDE or windows doesn't present a coherent representation of the computer, you are finding that they are not coherent to what you expect, because you expect them to behave like a MAC!. It's habit, TRAINING. Feel insulted already?
If you think you are presenting a real problem a real windows user ever had, I challenge you to find me ONE reference to this that is not from a MAC user. Go ahead. My email is available.
"your way of doing things, which you maintain is not merely comparable but equal"
Go reread my post. Now understand it. Let it enter your pedantic brain. Now reread the part where I specifically say MACos is superior from a usability point of view. Now apologize.
"You CAN'T learn anything if you deny there's anything to learn"
Where the HELL did I say that? I suggest that, if you want to argue with voices in your head, you do it in a private place. All I am saying is that for most practical purposes, most people can adapt to one thing or the other without giving a damn, as soon as they had time to adapt.
That's why there are 300 million windows users who would hate using a mac if it was placed in front of them tomorrow, but wouldn't care in 3 months.
Now, reread your post. If you felt insulted by mine, how the fuck should I feel about yours?
BTW: I don't know why, considering the pedantic ass you are, I always end helping you. Did you read my response to you on Usenet about your mail server thing from yesterday?
Re:Why not in Debian's Distribution?
on
KDE 2.0 in Action
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· Score: 1
Because Debian won't include it. As for their reasons, some Debian representative surely will be happy to explain.
After they do, I suggest you ask him why they don't distribute the LGPL'd kdelibs package.
Chris, you seem to repeat this mantra once every few months here or in usenet;-)
So your reason to use linux is to have things your Mac does not do. Big deal. I want linux to be good enough so that I don't need to even think on buying a mac, and I'm willing to spend my effort making it so.
"I don't think either KDE or Gnome are remotely comparable to MacOS for usability."
It's not a matter of thinking. Try them. Try them for a long while so you lose your MAC habits. Trying them briefly will simply make you hate them because anything that is not a Mac will be foreign to you.
I personally believe your mac is probably better in usability. I also believe it's not so much better that it's worth paying even $100 for it, at least for MY use.
Getting extra 4MB for a 486 can be quite difficult, since that memory has not been manufactured in years. In fact, those 4MB will probably cost you about the same as 32MB for a modern computer.
Slashdot Mirror
Considering I am one of the voting members of the KDE FreeQt Foundation (no Widget there), I'm amazed to discover that we need unanymous vote.
BTW: If you want free Qt working on win32, all you need to do is port the X version. Despite what misinformed people say, the QPL says nothing about platforms.
What Corel is doing, is that they are NOT giving binaries to anyone under 18.
The GPL does NOT say that you have to give binaries to anyone who asks you. It simply says that if you give them binaries, you have to give them source.
Now, As long as you are 18, you can get binaries from Corel, and you can also get sources from Corel.
In what specific way are they breaking any license?
They are just not redistributing their GPL-based product, which is a long stablished right: consider in-house packages based on GPLd code.
Further, does Corel say that if you are over 18 and get their package you can not give it to a minor?
If you had seen the number of people who end in a hospital with eye injuries because of corks every christmas you would really really want them not to sue you.
"Think of it this way: it makes no more sense to provide documentation for a GUI solely through that GUI than would it make sense to provide documentation on how to use a Braille reader only using Braille-encoded "print".
Think of it this way: the KDE docs are not solely available through a GUI so critizicing KDE for making the docs solely available through a GUI makes even less sense.
You are simply not making any sense.
"What you aren't understanding is that to a Unix person, if the documentation is GUI-accessible only, it doesn't count."
HTML documentation, as the one included by default with KWM is not "GUI-accessible only". You can read it using a series of text based readers, ranging from cat, to less, to w3m, to emacs. So, this point is simply unexistant.
In fact, latest unix versions, such as SCO unixware 7, include a handy viewer for HTML docs, called "man". If your man is broken and doesn't support that, fix it.
Besides, who are you to speak in the name of "unix people"???? I have used unix for years, use nothing but unix, and don't share your opinion. Does it make me "non-unix people" somehow?
As for if Winix is evil or not, I don't give a damn, considering Winix is a term you are inventing to cover an object you can define as you wish. If you want to define it to be evil, that is solely an issue for yourself.
Those emacs users can easily go to the KDE control center and change the binding to something they like.
Now, notice how it is kwm the one that is flexible and friendly to other programs. How would you change emacs to not interfere with kwm? I bet it is a whole lot harder.
In keybinding matters, emacs is a bag full of elbows.
"I don't like the doc format kwm installs" != "kwm is undocumented". If you gonna gripe, gripe in ways that can be reasonably understood.
"The point on the keybinding is that only a Windows user would guess it."
Not only windows users. An enlightenment user will guess it. A KDE user will guess it. A fvwm95 user will guess it. A qvwm user will guess it. A icewm user will guess it. All of them are not windows users, so you are just wrong.
A twm user will not guess it, but then again, a twm user will not guess ANY OTHER key combination either, right?
"window ring bindings are hardly standard" oh, alt-tab is used by what? 80% of all the GUI users in the world? That's fairly standard, even if only defacto.
"Maybe the FRONT key, although that should probably just be raise, or raise-lower toggle."
The FRONT key only exists for people using Sun keyboards. Making it the default when 99% of the keyboards where the program can be used does not have a FRONT key would be either idiotic, or intentionally annoying. Intentional annoyances are evil. So, probably not a good idea.
It would be the equivalent of making the "less than" operator in perl be "%", just to be different from Visual Basic.
That was operator error, the same answer is above, with my name in it.
I do have a man page for kwm, because I bothered to generate it from the SGML sources. Do it if you are so inclined.
Perhaps you would like to address the more interesting point of why is deliberately choosing a different keybinding from windows a feature?
It may surprise you, but I live in a half million inhabitants city where there is no used computer store, 150KM away from a million inhabitants one with no used computer store. And yes, I usually consider this a civilized area :-)
:-)
I went through this very same thing less than a year ago. No computer store would sell me that memory for less than $30 the 4MB stick, recycled from an old computer.
Of course everyone's mileage WILL vary
Chris, despite what you seem to believe, it is perfectly possible to disagree with you and not be wrong, not be ignorant, know what I'm taking about and not being based on prejudice.
Disclaimer: I am far from "top" anything, and wether you want to feel insulted by what I say or not, I'm not sure I can fix, since I don;t think I was insulting. Whatever.
"It _is_ a matter of thinking." Nonsense. You can't judge without experiencing.
People hate unfamiliar interfaces. If you feel insulted by having that generalization applied to you, then I'd say you are too easily insulted to be worth arguing with.
You are finding fault on KDE and GNOME at the same time for not being original and for not being identical to MACos. That's schizocriticism.
KDE does make an effort to present a coherent representation of the computer. If you find the effort a failure, that's a whole different thing.
"I have never seen _any_ file manager, other than the MacOS Finder, that behaves as though the
user's placement of an icon or object is in any
way significant or worthy of notice. It's always
'and now we sort everything and line it up in neat
rows, because we can'. I _realise_ that's what everybody but MacOS does, but can't you see that
it screws up people's orientation? That's not how a desk behaves. "
This paragraph by itself shows how prejudiced you are. Face it: your computer is not a desktop. You are not finding here that KDE or windows doesn't present a coherent representation of the computer, you are finding that they are not coherent to what you expect, because you expect them to behave like a MAC!. It's habit, TRAINING. Feel insulted already?
If you think you are presenting a real problem a real windows user ever had, I challenge you to find me ONE reference to this that is not from a MAC user. Go ahead. My email is available.
"your way of doing things, which you maintain is not merely comparable but equal"
Go reread my post. Now understand it. Let it enter your pedantic brain. Now reread the part where I specifically say MACos is superior from a usability point of view. Now apologize.
"You CAN'T learn anything if you deny there's anything to learn"
Where the HELL did I say that? I suggest that, if you want to argue with voices in your head, you do it in a private place. All I am saying is that for most practical purposes, most people can adapt to one thing or the other without giving a damn, as soon as they had time to adapt.
That's why there are 300 million windows users who would hate using a mac if it was placed in front of them tomorrow, but wouldn't care in 3 months.
Now, reread your post. If you felt insulted by mine, how the fuck should I feel about yours?
BTW: I don't know why, considering the pedantic ass you are, I always end helping you. Did you read my response to you on Usenet about your mail server thing from yesterday?
Because Debian won't include it.
As for their reasons, some Debian representative surely will be happy to explain.
After they do, I suggest you ask him why they don't distribute the LGPL'd kdelibs package.
Who told you KDE "is to woo people away from W95/NT in the corporate/business setting"?
I write KDE programs for entirely different reasons, and I know for a fact that others have their own personal reasons that don;t match that either.
Aren't you being way too quick to assign a motive to people you simply don't know?
For what it's worth, most KDE people I have asked work in it for fun and to have a desktop they can use themselves, in that order.
Chris, you seem to repeat this mantra once every few months here or in usenet ;-)
So your reason to use linux is to have things your Mac does not do. Big deal. I want linux to be good enough so that I don't need to even think on buying a mac, and I'm willing to spend my effort making it so.
"I don't think either KDE or Gnome are remotely comparable to MacOS for usability."
It's not a matter of thinking. Try them. Try them for a long while so you lose your MAC habits. Trying them briefly will simply make you hate them because anything that is not a Mac will be foreign to you.
I personally believe your mac is probably better in usability. I also believe it's not so much better that it's worth paying even $100 for it, at least for MY use.
well that's the point, isn't it? ;-)
Getting extra 4MB for a 486 can be quite difficult, since that memory has not been manufactured in years. In fact, those 4MB will probably cost you about the same as 32MB for a modern computer.
If you double the amount of RAM in the system, didn't you expect to see a major difference in performance?
Actually, the standard C++ IDL mapping forces you to be bloated by specification.
KDE provides a huge lot of features. A 286 can't even get X running, much less a program on top of it, even if it only draws a single icon.
Comparing by LOC will always favour the C code, which simply needs more LOCs to implement the same features.
When was the last time you checked KSpread? It has had lots of development lately.
What did you find missing on KSpread? Maybe someone will concentrate on those features.
Gill: Did you look at Killustrator?
Gimp: So, it is not a GNOME app. Is the "bonobization" part of the GIMP source tree or is it a hacked version?
Middle-click on the background.
KImageShop is in CVS. It compiles. It does what the screenshot shows. How can that be wishful thinking?
Oh, but there is a catch (of course ;-)
:-)
When applications exit normally, they don't store session information!
So, you are going to have to make the application store some information on any exit, regardless of wether it's a session checkpoint or not.
That's not session management anymore
You can already access news and email simply using pop3: and nntp: URL's :-)
Gnumeric: have you tried KOffice's spreadsheet?
Gimp: Since when is Gimp a GNOME app?
Gnome-db: is it usable already?
I have no idea what gill is.