"...much of the technology used on this mission came from other countries (and the ideas for them). "
And most of the people at NASA (or their recent ancestors) also came from other countries. There were probably even some Canadians involved and that's very convenient because if something should happen to go wrong we can simply blame them;-)
Yes I do, but Ford had absolutely nothing to do with his problems. If anything, the quality has been better since Ford came into the picture. The two '85s and the '92 he had were horrible. Bad electronics, leaky everything, and a self-destructing v-12 to top it all off. If he manages to get 250k miles out of his new one with no major problems then I'll put them in the same class as a Buick LeSabre.
Saying that Volvos quality has gone down just reinforces my point. Ford ownership or not, Volvo is not an American car.
"What puts the screws in individuals is bad government policies. Its criminal that in this country we don't have things like universal healthcare. Our health care among inner city populations is closer to that of developing countries than those of industrialized countries! But don't blame the economists for that."
I blame the taxman. As I said, he's hitting all the wrong people.
"Their goal is to make the overall economy as big as possible." Or in some cases, just to make it look as big as possible.
" Its up to the government to allocate the resulting dollars fairly to individuals." To a degree, yes. It's more important that the government performs its primary function which is to serve the PEOPLE, not the corporations who lobby for laws such as NAFTA. Get rid of the corporate lobby altogether. If a company wants some influence with government then let them get it by convincing their employees to vote one way or another.
"You'd probably be surprised to learn that another thing that economists broadly agree on is that the wealth distribution in this country needs to be more equitable." Not surprised at all. The stability of our society depends on it. If the "have nots" find themselves too far behind the "haves", the inevitable outcome is some type of class warfare.
"Besides, we don't have unfettered free trade. ----- No we don't. We need to get rid of more tarrifs and stupid job-protection laws."
Should we buy clothes made by children working in sweatshops? Should we do away with the labor unions and return to a time when a company could hold an entire town hostage? Regulation is a must and IMO it is not being done with the best interests of the general population in mind. More common than stupid job-protection laws is the type of legislation we saw immediately after 9/11 when congress decided that it was important to give billions to save the airlines, the same airlines whose negligence was largely too blame for the magnitude of the devastation in NYC and DC. The execs took the money and laid off the workers.
"We have an oligarchy of politicians and CEOs. ------ Those have nothing to do with free trade." Of course they do. They are how we get regs like NAFTA. They did it for the same reason a dog licks his balls, because they can.
"Just look at Walmart's "advertise homegrown, sell foreign slavegoods" campaign. ------- If Walmart makes more profit by importing their products, than they should do that. What you don't seem to understand is that doing that will cause job losses in whatever industry produces those goods Walmart no longer buys, but will cause job gains due to the extra money Walmart has to spend."
The only place I see Walmart money going is back into the beast, and into the pockets of the Walton billionaire club.
"If they are paying their CEO more money instead of investing it in workers and their business, than that's the government's job to tax that CEO's earnings and distribute it equitably." Actually, I think it's the stockholders and employees job the force the issue. Alas, they are merely sheep. I hope the high-flying fund managers rot in a jail cell for the way they cheated millions of people out of a fair chance to make a profit. I've never been a big supporter of labor unions, but nowadays I see many professions where I think they would do some good.
"I have no idea how you can say that the poor have more stuff than they used to, unless you believe --------- Those are the numbers. People have more real GDP than they used to. Where are the numbers to back up your claim?"
It used to be that an average family could house and feed their kids on one average fulltime salary. The numbers are just numbers. Open your eyes and take a look around to see the real bottom line.
"What's more insidious about the path we're on is that at every step individual freedoms are lost. -------- What does that have to do with free trade?"
"Most economists agree that unfettered free trade is good for everyone."
It may be good over the long-long term for the global system as a whole, but it puts the screws to people in ways that economists cannot even imagine as they sit in their ivory towers. Besides, we don't have unfettered free trade. We have an oligarchy of politicians and CEOs. The little guy is not free to trade when the big guy decides to put the crush on. Just look at Walmart's "advertise homegrown, sell foreign slavegoods" campaign.
I have no idea how you can say that the poor have more stuff than they used to, unless you believe "ketchup is a vegetable". Everywhere I look I see people's buying power going out the window. Sure, DVD players are affordable, but how about food, shelter and basic medical care? America used to be on top and now we're not.
What's more insidious about the path we're on is that at every step individual freedoms are lost. The viability of small business is destroyed by globalization.
What happened to the US television industry? Bad trade agreements. We ended up losing it to the Japanese who were dumping product here while overcharging their home market.
6% is a bogus number if only for the reason that you did agree with (underemployment). As for counting who are "looking for jobs", they have no reliable way of knowing that. They don't even know how many people are actually living in this country. The numbers used to calculate GDP can be and IMO are manipulated.
The Mickey Mouse IP laws are protectionism at their worst. The natural thing is for information to be free. Loosen the shackles and it was have an equalizing effect on wealth distribution. i.e. some wealth has already been redistributed in the wrong direction; we need to let it level out. Arguments about stifling innovation are overblown.
Your opinions seem to all be based on the assumption that pure capitalism is the "right thing". And as you said yourself, it inherently creates a widening gap between rich and poor. You ignore the inherent privilege that comes with wealth. And Bush wants to reduce/eliminate the inheritance tax? Great, we'll end up with the next generation of super-rich morons who have no clue what it's like to work for a living. Saying that the poor are better off than they were is BS as evidenced by the poverty line itself.
BTW, I did read the articles you pointed to. I disagree with most of them. You can easily google for some equally well thought out counterarguments.
I understand the math behind what you're saying, but the world is too chaotic to be explained by it. Until I see some honesty in government and big business and a turnaround in the wealth gap I have to say that they are full of shit. This country is supposed to be about freedom and democracy before capitalism.
The real world. I have many friends in the auto sales/parts/repair/insurance businesses. Even the ones who work primarily with foreign makes aren't stupid enough to buy them for themselves. They buy American because that's where the value is.
> So are trade deficits >----- >There are no such things as trade deficits.
Really?
>unemployment >----- >Unemployment is unavoidable. There is a natural level of unemployment >because of changing market conditions.
Changing market conditions caused largely by ill-conceived and poorly executed trade agreements.
> The fact that we operate at an unemployment rate of about 6% even in a >recession is a phenomenal achievement.
6% is a bogus number. It doesn't count people who are underemployed, people who can't find their first job, or people who have been out of work for so long that they are no longer elligible for benefits. Besides, the recession has been over for quite a while now... if you believe the liars in DC anyway.
>and an ever-growing class of people living below the poverty level. >------- >Economic theory only promises maximal total efficiency, not equitable >distrbution. And equitable distribution isn't important?
>To achieve a more equitable distribution of wealth, you >have to have the government redistribute wealth by raising taxes. They could reduce taxes for the vast majority of people and stop giving away the store to the fatcats. The intellectual property laws are out of control... more gifts to the rich. Revoke the Mickey Mouse laws and other pro-business legislation and just watch the wealth redistribute itself.
> Since taxes create inherent inefficiency, its a tradeoff between >maximal total efficiency and equitable redistribution. Taxes create inefficiency? No, bloated corrupt government creates inefficiency. Taxes are just the cost of running a government, military, and public infrastructures.
>This is why the European economies have less beeoming economies than >the US, but more equitable distribution. And probably the reason that many of them now enjoy a higher standard of living than we do.
>Don't be so naive and theoretical. >----- >This isn't unproven theory. These are basic, standard, well-accepted >concepts in economics. There is a great deal of empircal evidence, as >well, that shows that treaties like NAFTA actually ended up helping >everyone involved, and that many of the protectionist laws the US has >passed ended up costing the US economy hundreds of thousands of dollars >per year for every $50,000 a year job they saved. NAFTA might be helping people in Mexico and a few elite stockowners in the US, but most American are getting the shaft.
"Im all about old american cars (since they truly will last forever)" And a lot of the good old stuff is still available. Smallblock Chevs are still a nice piece. GM's pushrod v6's are hard to break.
I agree that Cadillac has made mostly crap since 1982. But Caddy is small potatos. And Aston Martin is irrelevent. A Geo with a Chevy nameplate is still a Geo. I'm talking about Chrysler minivans with Chrysler (not mitsubishi) engines, Buicks, Chevy Luminas and Impalas, Mercury Marquis, GMC trucks, etc. Sure, there's non-US content in them... mostly Canadian.
BTW, do you guys ever fix the stuff you design? Ever hear of putting bolts where you can get a wrench on them? And can you tell me what the hell Lexus was thinking when they put a hydraulic radiator fan in their midrange cars?
You're a bit off topic talking about greedy CEO's, but it's a valid point. IMO, it's the consumer's responsibility to spend his money wisely. That's why I'd rather pay the local mechanic to replace a worn-out engine in an old car than to buy a new car.
Globalization is happening and can't be stopped. But there's no reason to rush things by dragging ourselves down to "their" level of prosperity.
"When you send $$$ offshore, then other people have more money to buy *your* goods."
I have a much better chance of seeing the money come back when I spend it near home. We buy tons of cars from Japan and they buy almost none of ours. It has nothing to do with quality. It's culture and protectionism.
If you think that US cars are cheap and plasticky and that imports are not, then you just aren't looking deep enough. There's a very good reason why you don't see toyotas being used as taxicabs. They wouldn't last a month in NYC or Boston.
Tariffs? They don't amount to squat. We should have had big tariffs on Japanese TV's back in the seventies before they stole the market from us by dumping.
Your opinion of the quality of American cars is not only overly-simplistic, but it's just plain wrong.
Closer doesn't matter for most phone support issues. The tech is either sitting beside you, or he isn't. The American business practice has nothing to do with diagnosing a printer problem or a virus infected OS. Timezone? It seems to me that the better value is to deal with someone working normal business hours.
If you want the best value, then consider what happens when you send $$$ offshore. Put an American worker out of his job and you'll end up giving him some money in unemployment compensation. That ex-worker won't be able to support the domestic economy. Sure, you can save a few bucks up front, but it's gonna cost you in the long run.
Everytime I hear someone bitch about the economy, I ask what kind of car they drive. If they say Toyota, Hyundai or Volkswagen then they can kiss my ass.
SCO a DDOS victim and Jeffrey Dahmer was a murder victim. Do I care?
Darl McFuckwad is guilty of DDOS'ing the entire Linux industry. Shove an Atlas V rocket up his ass and send him into orbit (around uranus) and I won't feel even a scosche of sympathy for him. In fact, I'd push the launch button myself.
Slashdot Mirror
Mars should be OK. Just watch out for pics of Uranus.
Yeah, then press the reset button on the front of the rover...Doh!
"...much of the technology used on this mission came from other countries (and the ideas for them). "
;-)
And most of the people at NASA (or their recent ancestors) also came from other countries. There were probably even some Canadians involved and that's very convenient because if something should happen to go wrong we can simply blame them
Yes I do, but Ford had absolutely nothing to do with his problems. If anything, the quality has been better since Ford came into the picture. The two '85s and the '92 he had were horrible. Bad electronics, leaky everything, and a self-destructing v-12 to top it all off. If he manages to get 250k miles out of his new one with no major problems then I'll put them in the same class as a Buick LeSabre.
Saying that Volvos quality has gone down just reinforces my point. Ford ownership or not, Volvo is not an American car.
No i'd call it a shitbox. It sounds more like my father's Jaguars than any of the deomestics he ever owned or any of the ones I've owned.
"What puts the screws in individuals is bad government policies.
Its criminal that in this country we don't have things like universal healthcare. Our health care among inner city populations is closer to that of developing countries than those of industrialized countries! But don't blame the economists for that."
I blame the taxman. As I said, he's hitting all the wrong people.
"Their goal is to make the overall economy as big as possible."
Or in some cases, just to make it look as big as possible.
" Its up to the government to allocate the resulting dollars fairly to individuals."
To a degree, yes. It's more important that the government performs its primary function which is to serve the PEOPLE, not the corporations who lobby for laws such as NAFTA. Get rid of the corporate lobby altogether. If a company wants some influence with government then let them get it by convincing their employees to vote one way or another.
"You'd probably be surprised to learn that another thing that economists broadly agree on is that the wealth distribution in this country needs to be more equitable."
Not surprised at all. The stability of our society depends on it. If the "have nots" find themselves too far behind the "haves", the inevitable outcome is some type of class warfare.
"Besides, we don't have unfettered free trade.
-----
No we don't. We need to get rid of more tarrifs and stupid job-protection laws."
Should we buy clothes made by children working in sweatshops? Should we do away with the labor unions and return to a time when a company could hold an entire town hostage? Regulation is a must and IMO it is not being done with the best interests of the general population in mind. More common than stupid job-protection laws is the type of legislation we saw immediately after 9/11 when congress decided that it was important to give billions to save the airlines, the same airlines whose negligence was largely too blame for the magnitude of the devastation in NYC and DC. The execs took the money and laid off the workers.
"We have an oligarchy of politicians and CEOs.
------
Those have nothing to do with free trade."
Of course they do. They are how we get regs like NAFTA. They did it for the same reason a dog licks his balls, because they can.
"Just look at Walmart's "advertise homegrown, sell foreign slavegoods" campaign.
-------
If Walmart makes more profit by importing their products, than they should do that. What you don't seem to understand is that doing that will cause job losses in whatever industry produces those goods Walmart no longer buys, but will cause job gains due to the extra money Walmart has to spend."
The only place I see Walmart money going is back into the beast, and into the pockets of the Walton billionaire club.
"If they are paying their CEO more money instead of investing it in workers and their business, than that's the government's job to tax that CEO's earnings and distribute it equitably."
Actually, I think it's the stockholders and employees job the force the issue. Alas, they are merely sheep. I hope the high-flying fund managers rot in a jail cell for the way they cheated millions of people out of a fair chance to make a profit. I've never been a big supporter of labor unions, but nowadays I see many professions where I think they would do some good.
"I have no idea how you can say that the poor have more stuff than they used to, unless you believe
---------
Those are the numbers. People have more real GDP than they used to. Where are the numbers to back up your claim?"
It used to be that an average family could house and feed their kids on one average fulltime salary. The numbers are just numbers. Open your eyes and take a look around to see the real bottom line.
"What's more insidious about the path we're on is that at every step individual freedoms are lost.
--------
What does that have to do with free trade?"
You can
"Most economists agree that unfettered free trade is good for everyone."
It may be good over the long-long term for the global system as a whole, but it puts the screws to people in ways that economists cannot even imagine as they sit in their ivory towers. Besides, we don't have unfettered free trade. We have an oligarchy of politicians and CEOs. The little guy is not free to trade when the big guy decides to put the crush on. Just look at Walmart's "advertise homegrown, sell foreign slavegoods" campaign.
I have no idea how you can say that the poor have more stuff than they used to, unless you believe "ketchup is a vegetable". Everywhere I look I see people's buying power going out the window. Sure, DVD players are affordable, but how about food, shelter and basic medical care? America used to be on top and now we're not.
What's more insidious about the path we're on is that at every step individual freedoms are lost. The viability of small business is destroyed by globalization.
What happened to the US television industry? Bad trade agreements. We ended up losing it to the Japanese who were dumping product here while overcharging their home market.
6% is a bogus number if only for the reason that you did agree with (underemployment). As for counting who are "looking for jobs", they have no reliable way of knowing that. They don't even know how many people are actually living in this country. The numbers used to calculate GDP can be and IMO are manipulated.
The Mickey Mouse IP laws are protectionism at their worst. The natural thing is for information to be free. Loosen the shackles and it was have an equalizing effect on wealth distribution. i.e. some wealth has already been redistributed in the wrong direction; we need to let it level out. Arguments about stifling innovation are overblown.
Your opinions seem to all be based on the assumption that pure capitalism is the "right thing". And as you said yourself, it inherently creates a widening gap between rich and poor. You ignore the inherent privilege that comes with wealth. And Bush wants to reduce/eliminate the inheritance tax? Great, we'll end up with the next generation of super-rich morons who have no clue what it's like to work for a living. Saying that the poor are better off than they were is BS as evidenced by the poverty line itself.
BTW, I did read the articles you pointed to. I disagree with most of them. You can easily google for some equally well thought out counterarguments.
I understand the math behind what you're saying, but the world is too chaotic to be explained by it. Until I see some honesty in government and big business and a turnaround in the wealth gap I have to say that they are full of shit. This country is supposed to be about freedom and democracy before capitalism.
"what kind of a dream world are you livng in?"
The real world. I have many friends in the auto sales/parts/repair/insurance businesses. Even the ones who work primarily with foreign makes aren't stupid enough to buy them for themselves. They buy American because that's where the value is.
> So are trade deficits
>-----
>There are no such things as trade deficits.
Really?
>unemployment
>-----
>Unemployment is unavoidable. There is a natural level of unemployment >because of changing market conditions.
Changing market conditions caused largely by ill-conceived and poorly executed trade agreements.
> The fact that we operate at an unemployment rate of about 6% even in a >recession is a phenomenal achievement.
6% is a bogus number. It doesn't count people who are underemployed, people who can't find their first job, or people who have been out of work for so long that they are no longer elligible for benefits. Besides, the recession has been over for quite a while now... if you believe the liars in DC anyway.
>and an ever-growing class of people living below the poverty level.
>-------
>Economic theory only promises maximal total efficiency, not equitable >distrbution.
And equitable distribution isn't important?
>To achieve a more equitable distribution of wealth, you
>have to have the government redistribute wealth by raising taxes.
They could reduce taxes for the vast majority of people and stop giving away the store to the fatcats. The intellectual property laws are out of control... more gifts to the rich. Revoke the Mickey Mouse laws and other pro-business legislation and just watch the wealth redistribute itself.
> Since taxes create inherent inefficiency, its a tradeoff between >maximal total efficiency and equitable redistribution.
Taxes create inefficiency? No, bloated corrupt government creates inefficiency. Taxes are just the cost of running a government, military, and public infrastructures.
>This is why the European economies have less beeoming economies than >the US, but more equitable distribution.
And probably the reason that many of them now enjoy a higher standard of living than we do.
>Don't be so naive and theoretical.
>-----
>This isn't unproven theory. These are basic, standard, well-accepted >concepts in economics. There is a great deal of empircal evidence, as >well, that shows that treaties like NAFTA actually ended up helping >everyone involved, and that many of the protectionist laws the US has >passed ended up costing the US economy hundreds of thousands of dollars >per year for every $50,000 a year job they saved.
NAFTA might be helping people in Mexico and a few elite stockowners in the US, but most American are getting the shaft.
"It's pretty standard economic theory"
So are trade deficits, unemployment, and an ever-growing class of people living below the poverty level.
"Please read up on it."
Don't be so naive and theoretical.
"Im all about old american cars (since they truly will last forever)"
And a lot of the good old stuff is still available. Smallblock Chevs are still a nice piece. GM's pushrod v6's are hard to break.
I agree that Cadillac has made mostly crap since 1982. But Caddy is small potatos. And Aston Martin is irrelevent. A Geo with a Chevy nameplate is still a Geo. I'm talking about Chrysler minivans with Chrysler (not mitsubishi) engines, Buicks, Chevy Luminas and Impalas, Mercury Marquis, GMC trucks, etc. Sure, there's non-US content in them... mostly Canadian.
BTW, do you guys ever fix the stuff you design? Ever hear of putting bolts where you can get a wrench on them? And can you tell me what the hell Lexus was thinking when they put a hydraulic radiator fan in their midrange cars?
"made in another Western economy"
If you're talking about England, then I agree 100%. If you're talking about Germany, I'll agree 75% (WWII wasn't THAT long ago).
You're a bit off topic talking about greedy CEO's, but it's a valid point. IMO, it's the consumer's responsibility to spend his money wisely. That's why I'd rather pay the local mechanic to replace a worn-out engine in an old car than to buy a new car.
Globalization is happening and can't be stopped. But there's no reason to rush things by dragging ourselves down to "their" level of prosperity.
There's a higher percentage of domestic content in the average Ford than in the average Toyota.
"When you send $$$ offshore, then other people have more money to buy *your* goods."
I have a much better chance of seeing the money come back when I spend it near home. We buy tons of cars from Japan and they buy almost none of ours. It has nothing to do with quality. It's culture and protectionism.
If you think that US cars are cheap and plasticky and that imports are not, then you just aren't looking deep enough. There's a very good reason why you don't see toyotas being used as taxicabs. They wouldn't last a month in NYC or Boston.
Tariffs? They don't amount to squat. We should have had big tariffs on Japanese TV's back in the seventies before they stole the market from us by dumping.
Your opinion of the quality of American cars is not only overly-simplistic, but it's just plain wrong.
Closer doesn't matter for most phone support issues. The tech is either sitting beside you, or he isn't. The American business practice has nothing to do with diagnosing a printer problem or a virus infected OS. Timezone? It seems to me that the better value is to deal with someone working normal business hours.
If you want the best value, then consider what happens when you send $$$ offshore. Put an American worker out of his job and you'll end up giving him some money in unemployment compensation. That ex-worker won't be able to support the domestic economy. Sure, you can save a few bucks up front, but it's gonna cost you in the long run.
Everytime I hear someone bitch about the economy, I ask what kind of car they drive. If they say Toyota, Hyundai or Volkswagen then they can kiss my ass.
Actually it makes sense that they would just disable the most significant address line and go straight from a 1024 to a 512.
SCO a DDOS victim and Jeffrey Dahmer was a murder victim. Do I care?
Darl McFuckwad is guilty of DDOS'ing the entire Linux industry. Shove an Atlas V rocket up his ass and send him into orbit (around uranus) and I won't feel even a scosche of sympathy for him. In fact, I'd push the launch button myself.
Oh, and make sure you get a 50mm 1.4 to go with it. The 135mm 2.8 was a darling, and the 43-86 3.5 zoom was quite a popular piece.
I sold a zillion of those as a kid clerk at Service Merchandise ~1980. They're terrific.
But Nikon always had the best rep for lenses, so I'd recommend finding a good clean Nikkormat FT series.
There's a section that covers stream pipes. I always read it steam pipes.
"the control circuit simply failed"
Maybe I'm over-simplifying it, but haven't they ever heard of fuses?
"By definition, a motor turns"
Linear induction motors don't turn.