Ah, not *only* oil and gas... but including imports/exports of oil and gas. You're correct, I've misinterpreted the table. But don't forget electric cars would increase the need to generate electricity, which would then rely more heavily on non-renewable sources, because the sad reality is the technology is simply not available yet to replace non-renewables for power generation. So it probably wouldn't affect the overall energy figures much, in fact, it could make them worse in the short term.
Actually, you're right - someone else pointed out that table is all energy, not just electric. When they were talking about Mtoe, I thought they were talking about all power generation, but they're not - they're talking about all energy, including physical imports and exports. Which makes the data even more flawed. Bah!
It would be nice if someone (and the EU are best placed to do this) would release some more useful data on the matter. There are very few sources, it seems, when it comes to fact-finding country-level energy use, etc. I'll ask my brother in law. He must know, he runs power stations all over Europe.
Hmmm, you're right. I don't know what % of the dependency is electricity. Odd the EU don't publish that. It would be useful. I don't know how accurate the CIA figures are/where they harvest the data from.
Where does it say only for oil and gas? I must have missed that... Is it on another page or something, because it does not say that on the page I linked to? =/
It only looks at generation, not where the actual fuel comes from to achieve the generation. Energy is sold on markets, just like shares, with bear pits for traders, etc. This table purely looks at the amount of energy a country consumes vs. the amount it purchases on these markets, AFAIK. It doesn't ignore nuclear, etc. per se, but it does not account for where the fuel comes from to generate the power locally in the first instance.
What you're saying is only renewable sources or non-renewables sourced from within the borders of the country concerned should be counted towards dependency. In fact, therein you make a very valid point! The dependency charts are inherently flawed.
However, focussing on the data in the charts and tables on that website dodges a rather inescapable fact:
Regardless of the true dependency of other EU nations, Portugal is such a minuscule generator of power that, in the grand scheme of things, even if 100% of the energy it generated was renewable it would make sod all difference. Portugal *is* heavily dependent - more so than most EU countries - and would still have to buy the *vast* majority of its energy from neighbouring states who are *not* using renewable sources.
Whether they, themselves, are reliant on imported resources - whether or not they can be considered dependent or not - is irrelevant. Portugal *is* heavily dependent and 45% renewable only really starts to mean something when it's on the scale that France or Germany generate.
Portugal is small beer I'm afraid. That's the point.
There is one other point. Not only is climate on their side, but when the amount of energy generated per annum is *so* low as it is in Portugal (less than 4Mtoe) it's far easier to make a larger percentage of that total renewable. Fact is, if you covered Italy in wind turbines, every inch of the place, you wouldn't make up Italy's energy deficit. The same is true of Portugal. Don't get me wrong, that Portugal is investing time and effort in renewable energy, and in many respects allowing themselves to be a guinea pig, is commendable. But we shouldn't get too excited.
Well yes, and no - see my comment at the end. Portugal produces such a tiny percentage of the energy it consumes, that 45% of that energy is from renewable sources is practically insignificant, since it's importing huge amounts of power from countries like France who almost exclusively export nuclear power. =/
Portugal only generates 17% of the electricity it uses: http://energy.eu/#dependency
So actually the 45% renewables is 45% of that 17%.
Which is really, what, 8% of Portugal's consumed electricity?
The rest they buy from their EU neighbours, probably mostly from France who export 49% of their generated power, since Spain don't really output enough and presumable wouldn't *only* sell to Portugal (see same table). I'm not saying the Portuguese energy department (whatever it's called) doesn't try to buy renewable energy from the EU grid, but I don't think they practically could buy enough from their neighbours to reach 45% renewables *consumed*, which is what really matters - especially in a country with such a high energy dependency.
And Portugal is a hot country. I live in the south of France and used to live in the UK and I know how much lower my energy needs are here because I pay the bills! It's easier to use less energy in a country where you don't really need to heat yourself at any time of the year.
Not to be all doom and gloom, this is a political stunt, but if you want a real success story look at Denmark. Net energy exporter (over 35% more power generated than needed by the country) and 30% of the energy it generates is from renewables: http://energy.eu/#renewable
And they want to do better. Now that *is* impressive. If they weren't exporting so much energy then more than 50% of their consumed power would be renewable (though I guess the exports pay for a lot of the investment in renewables).
Slashdot Mirror
Ah, not *only* oil and gas ... but including imports/exports of oil and gas. You're correct, I've misinterpreted the table. But don't forget electric cars would increase the need to generate electricity, which would then rely more heavily on non-renewable sources, because the sad reality is the technology is simply not available yet to replace non-renewables for power generation. So it probably wouldn't affect the overall energy figures much, in fact, it could make them worse in the short term.
Actually, you're right - someone else pointed out that table is all energy, not just electric. When they were talking about Mtoe, I thought they were talking about all power generation, but they're not - they're talking about all energy, including physical imports and exports. Which makes the data even more flawed. Bah!
It would be nice if someone (and the EU are best placed to do this) would release some more useful data on the matter. There are very few sources, it seems, when it comes to fact-finding country-level energy use, etc. I'll ask my brother in law. He must know, he runs power stations all over Europe.
Hmmm, you're right. I don't know what % of the dependency is electricity. Odd the EU don't publish that. It would be useful. I don't know how accurate the CIA figures are/where they harvest the data from.
Where does it say only for oil and gas? I must have missed that... Is it on another page or something, because it does not say that on the page I linked to? =/
It only looks at generation, not where the actual fuel comes from to achieve the generation. Energy is sold on markets, just like shares, with bear pits for traders, etc. This table purely looks at the amount of energy a country consumes vs. the amount it purchases on these markets, AFAIK. It doesn't ignore nuclear, etc. per se, but it does not account for where the fuel comes from to generate the power locally in the first instance.
What you're saying is only renewable sources or non-renewables sourced from within the borders of the country concerned should be counted towards dependency. In fact, therein you make a very valid point! The dependency charts are inherently flawed.
However, focussing on the data in the charts and tables on that website dodges a rather inescapable fact:
Regardless of the true dependency of other EU nations, Portugal is such a minuscule generator of power that, in the grand scheme of things, even if 100% of the energy it generated was renewable it would make sod all difference. Portugal *is* heavily dependent - more so than most EU countries - and would still have to buy the *vast* majority of its energy from neighbouring states who are *not* using renewable sources.
Whether they, themselves, are reliant on imported resources - whether or not they can be considered dependent or not - is irrelevant. Portugal *is* heavily dependent and 45% renewable only really starts to mean something when it's on the scale that France or Germany generate.
Portugal is small beer I'm afraid. That's the point.
There is one other point. Not only is climate on their side, but when the amount of energy generated per annum is *so* low as it is in Portugal (less than 4Mtoe) it's far easier to make a larger percentage of that total renewable. Fact is, if you covered Italy in wind turbines, every inch of the place, you wouldn't make up Italy's energy deficit. The same is true of Portugal. Don't get me wrong, that Portugal is investing time and effort in renewable energy, and in many respects allowing themselves to be a guinea pig, is commendable. But we shouldn't get too excited.
We now know what to do with an ageing Bruce Willis!
Well yes, and no - see my comment at the end. Portugal produces such a tiny percentage of the energy it consumes, that 45% of that energy is from renewable sources is practically insignificant, since it's importing huge amounts of power from countries like France who almost exclusively export nuclear power. =/
Portugal only generates 17% of the electricity it uses: http://energy.eu/#dependency So actually the 45% renewables is 45% of that 17%. Which is really, what, 8% of Portugal's consumed electricity? The rest they buy from their EU neighbours, probably mostly from France who export 49% of their generated power, since Spain don't really output enough and presumable wouldn't *only* sell to Portugal (see same table). I'm not saying the Portuguese energy department (whatever it's called) doesn't try to buy renewable energy from the EU grid, but I don't think they practically could buy enough from their neighbours to reach 45% renewables *consumed*, which is what really matters - especially in a country with such a high energy dependency. And Portugal is a hot country. I live in the south of France and used to live in the UK and I know how much lower my energy needs are here because I pay the bills! It's easier to use less energy in a country where you don't really need to heat yourself at any time of the year. Not to be all doom and gloom, this is a political stunt, but if you want a real success story look at Denmark. Net energy exporter (over 35% more power generated than needed by the country) and 30% of the energy it generates is from renewables: http://energy.eu/#renewable And they want to do better. Now that *is* impressive. If they weren't exporting so much energy then more than 50% of their consumed power would be renewable (though I guess the exports pay for a lot of the investment in renewables).