What do you mean zend costs in a commercial environment? The underlying zend engine used by PHP is free! The zend cache product costs money, but is definitely not needed by PHP, and there are free open source alternatives to boot. PHP/Zend is most definitely free in commercial settings. We've got loads of them running, and didn't need to pay a dime in licensing fees.
Who said that the cc numbers were actually on the webserver? If you can attack the webserver in such a way as to have it execute code, it can easily connect to a second db server. OR... You can see the source code, grab database passwords often in plaintext in the sourcecode, and hit the SQL Server database with enterprise manager remotely - unless they've wised up and had SQL server ports blocked except from trusted sources. From what I've seen, that's doubtful. People will spend thousands on a firewall for SQL server rather than just restrict access to specific IP address at the network card level.
One of our clients had to downgrade to Access 95, but it works. Probably something with differing MDAC drivers or some other MS data components not being right.:(
Wasn't saying it wouldn't work - the original "Why?" responder was saying that Access and SQLServer were based around the same code - I was pointing out that they weren't.
The poster didn't say whether they already HAVE SQL on NT, or whether it might be an option later. Agreed, if they HAVE it already, just use it. If they DON'T have it, spec out the requirements. No doubt SQL Server has many good points, and for most jobs will be stronger than MySQL.
But... if they don't need it, why spend the money? We just completed work for people who bought SQL2000 and 2 W2k boxes, THEN brought in someone to build the website, before it was specced. We built on it, and yes, it worked fine, but for their needs, ONE (maybe two) Linux boxes with MySQL would STILL have been overkill. I have 1 box handling 2-3 times their load, and it's a 300mhz with 128 megs of RAM. They've got 512 meg systems, dual processor 750 mhz, RAID, etc.
Again, nothing wrong with SQL Server, but it's overkill in many situations. We prefer to inform clients of their needs first, and make purchase recommendations after needs analysis, not before.
is what we use, with
var $DSN = "DSN_NAME";// Hostname of our mssql server.
var $Database = "datbase";// Logical database name on that server.
var $User = "username";// User und Password for login.
var $Password = "pass";
as part of a DB class we use. This is PHP, and the ODBC driver apparently will build the connection string for you. I used to have connection string stuff, but I don't have it with me right now - email me privately if you can't find any and I'll see what I can do.
If you're being overridden based on a higher up's emotional decisions, you may be best to move on, reframe the issue.
*YOU* are the one who will need to support it - if there's a crash at 2am, will your boss be driving in to fix it? Or will you (or someone else in your department?) Remote maintenance of an Access installation will probably require PCAnywhere or something similar - creating DSNs for applications remotely can't, I think, be done solely via Access over a network. (ok, use a raw connection string in the app I guess)
As much as I love MySQL, other open source options may be a better option, depending on concurrency and complexity of the system. But to be fair, if it's something that actually *could* fit in Access, you can most likely do it in MySQL anyway - I think you'll still get better concurrency performance in MySQL than Access.
The MyODBC program has some windows-based setup program. You should be able to just put in the IP address, port, username and password, and you'll have a DSN created. Access should just be able to 'open' than DSN itself and connect you - at least, that's how we do it.
I don't think it's Sybase-based. SQL Server was based off of early Sybase code (SQL 6.5 and Sybase 10(?) were *very* similar), but Access is based around the "Jet" engine, which is pretty dissimilar to Sybase. Just look at the query syntax for an Access query and a SQL server query even. Been very few moderately complex Access queries that I could ever straight drop into a SQL server and have work - there's always porting going on.
Perhaps the very latest version of Access is merged with SQL2000, but I don't think so.
We've got some clients who are comfortable with Access, so they use Access with the MyODBC driver, and hit the MySQL on the back end. They simply update their data in Access, and it's "live" on the site instantly.
That's the only major downside to this - people who work with Access aren't always used to thinking that thousands of people will be affected by their data changes in real time, so we don't give this functionality to all client.:)
It's also nice for them to be able to create their own reports based on live data from the website, rather than having us build web-based reporting tools. Yes, it's nice extra work, but when you don't have time and/or they have a budget, letting clients develop things how they want with their own tools is a nice option.
A way that I can click on a banner, have it send me, via email, more information, so I can read it later. Registered users of OSDN sites with their email address on file would be given that option.
I don't want every advertiser to have my email address tho. I want OSDN to be the intermediary - have THEM email me more detailed info about the ad I clicked on. Popups would be an alternative, but I HATE having my reading interrupted. I have enough distractions already.:(
Does no one consider the potential for fraudulent evidence in "cybercourts"? Seeing evidence and testimony via "streaming video" just sounds too precarious to me. If the whole thing was done in court, but you could "optionally" see things digitally, or see evidence digitally, fine. Well, maybe not even then. Did anyone see the "all your base are belong to us" flash movie someone put together? Look at how many real photos were doctored to include "all your base are belong to us" in them. They look REAL. If people start deciding cases based solely on digital evidence, we'll have LONGER court cases trying to prove the validity.
"Without the growth from *purchases* (which business can afford), the economy will not do as well."
People *purchase* our services to set up web/file/print servers. They save money by only purchasing our services, not our services plus licensing fees.
In the many dotcom crashes over the past year, couldn't more of them have used open source to spend a few hundred thousand less on servers/desktops/etc.? Maybe they wouldn't have had to lay off as many people. They could have PURCHASED more/better labor rather than PURCHASE more MS servers (or other closed-source products).
Money will continue to be spent - make no doubt about it. But if open source continues to grow like it has been, it'll be spent less on closed-source software like MS and more on people to actually do the work that needs to be done.
" If every time your user has a problem, you fix it without explaining what caused it, you're going to potentially decrease the learning rate of your user base. In other words, users will commonly repeat the same mistakes, and you will commonly repeat the same fix. "
You're assuming that the problem is one which will repeat itself often. Many times people have a one time problem (printer problem, etc.) that is much easier solved by doing what needs to be done in 30 seconds rather than explaining the entire concept of driver coding ins and outs.
"there are limits to what you can do with 30 year-old technology".
Let's not forget that when we refer to "unix" as a "30 year old technology", MS has been around almost that long as well. More telling, my Windows still has copyright dates from the early 80's in it. Presumably this is a refernce to early MS DOS technology still buried in the OS someplace.
Should I use a technology that's nearly 20 years old? Worded as "20 years old" dates it almost as much. Think back to computers 20 years ago - TI99 and commodore vic 20s were the rage, no? Atari 400, etc. So parts of what is now in Windows was written during the Donkey Kong/Space Invaders years.
Sorry, no, it doesn't work seemlessly. I am unable to simply highlight text in a Konqueror window, copy it, then paste it in my AIM window. Whatever the reasons may be (x/kde/aol/whatever) I can't do that. It's STILL a pain, relative to Windows. Perhaps it's even more frustrating because KDE2 is pretty slick otherwise, yet simple things like this still don't work. Whether it's actually simple to implement or not, it's simple from an end user perspective.
Even more troubling than the point you raised is the notion of privacy. I certainly don't want my tax information I calculate in Excel (hypothetically that is) streaming to MS or anyone else for that matter just to be crunched. It would make far more sense, I'd think, to build in a method to distribute time-sensitive versions of the functions to be executed in a sandbox of sorts. I may only need function X for a week to tweak some numbers, but don't ever need it again. I get the code, it runs locally, then destroys itself. True, the author may be subject to having their IP violated/stolen across the wires, but THEY'D GET PAID. That's the whole model. They'd sell loads of 'use' of their software, with the risk of piracy (which exists now anyway).
Turn this around to the Corel-described Excel example. *I* pay money to send MY data across the wires to SOMEONE ELSE'S SYSTEM (with who knows what type of security model). !?!?!?!
For *trivial* things this might be OK. For serious number crunching, this is, imo, a huge hole.
Lovely idealistic answer, but consider the following:
You end up looking bitter/sour that you didn't get the work before - 'sour grapes', etc. It can take a lot of dancing around to prove your point without making it look like 'whining'. At least, many of the people I've seen try this tack have failed.
"We've already spent our budget". They don't care if you're telling the truth or not - they don't have any money to spend. They're often sitting on thousands (or tens of thousands or more) of licenses for programs that are useless. They can't return them, so they make do.
You pique their interest, they do some research, and find that they WERE screwed. So now they're suspicious of any consultant, and don't trust you.
You end up talking to the person who hired the last 'consultant'. Sitting there outlining point by point how stupid the decision was doesn't often endear you. Also, if the SAME PERSON hires you, you already KNOW this person is stupid. You want to continue to deal with a stupid person? Perhaps some people do, because if the other 'consultant' can pull a fast one, so can you.
This is definitely an area that needs addressing in this industry, but dealing with companies who've been burned can often be a HUGE uphill battle. It CAN be a pretty easy 'sale' as well, but more often than not, I've found, it's not easy.
A java *application* can be small. It's distributing the jvm to make sure that someone has the proper version for your app which can be problematic. If everyone had a current JVM (and they were easy to update), people would write more java applications.
I think the original poster meant 'server side java', but even then, I'd still question that claim about 'most' sites. My guess is that more sites are powered by 'asp/vbscipt' on the server than java on the server.
Even if it's technically correct, I've seen about 20 posts here already saying things like 'CGI sucks - PHP rules!' (I'm a huge PHP fan btw, this is not a PHP slam).
Although the mozilla people mention using it to test CGI programs locally, that seems probably the worst use of this technology. MUCH more interesting would be to tie in existing code (perl, javascript, etc) into one cohesive app, and run it *locally* with the mozilla app as the interface. No need for a net connection at all - you could write apps in Perl and distribute them to be used with a standalone Mozilla machine. Yes it could be done now if you're also shipping a webserver, but this is less to install and maintain.
Think standalone kiosks for starters. I was given a demo of a standalone kiosk system over a year ago (never got off the ground). The machine it came with was an NT box with VB Scripts, SQL server and some other stuff - huge $$$. Yes, you could replicate all of this with Apache/Mysql, etc. This just seems to make it even easier. Rather than treating the browser as just a client, it becomes more integrated - it becomes the app itself. Also, by using this IPC stuff, my Perl scripts can do one thing, my javascripts can do something else, and the mozilla frontend would tie it together (that's my impression, anyway).
I personally am becoming disenchanted with the whole mozilla thing - yes all this stuff is cool, but I think we all just wanted a decent browser about a year ago. Yes, keep developing and adding on, but a small, quick browser (with a netscape 4.7 compatibility toggle switch!) would have helped stave off the decline of this browser technology.
PHP on many virtual hosting environments is running in CGI mode.
Please put a bit more thought into the next post before a knee-jerk post like this. "PHP is great, CGI is bad!". It's not even apples v. oranges, because at least both of those are fruits.
Write letters. Get others to do the same. To heck with Touchstone - contact the advertisers directly and tell them that you specifically will NOT do business with them because of this. If you get enough people to do this, it won't matter what type of 'operations' are 'prohibited' - the movie maker won't put this kind of crap in the DVD.
The more I hear about DVD crap like this (region encoding, etc) the less I want one. Just got a new VHS player and it's fine. OK, I can't skip around as quickly, but I CAN skip around!:)
Bit late to the game here, but for the sake of the archives...
NPR itself might not be hurt too much, but the local NPR affiliates might be.
Think about the type of programming that NPR stations do - often times it's somewhat more indepth reporting on 'offbeat' issues that don't rate much merit on national networks. I'm thinking primarily LOCAL items. LPFM promises to put more local issues and music programming on the air - just the kind of thing that would (short term anyway) cause NPR stations to lose listeners.
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What do you mean zend costs in a commercial environment? The underlying zend engine used by PHP is free! The zend cache product costs money, but is definitely not needed by PHP, and there are free open source alternatives to boot. PHP/Zend is most definitely free in commercial settings. We've got loads of them running, and didn't need to pay a dime in licensing fees.
Who said that the cc numbers were actually on the webserver? If you can attack the webserver in such a way as to have it execute code, it can easily connect to a second db server. OR... You can see the source code, grab database passwords often in plaintext in the sourcecode, and hit the SQL Server database with enterprise manager remotely - unless they've wised up and had SQL server ports blocked except from trusted sources. From what I've seen, that's doubtful. People will spend thousands on a firewall for SQL server rather than just restrict access to specific IP address at the network card level.
One of our clients had to downgrade to Access 95, but it works. Probably something with differing MDAC drivers or some other MS data components not being right. :(
...are you saying this doesn't work?
Wasn't saying it wouldn't work - the original "Why?" responder was saying that Access and SQLServer were based around the same code - I was pointing out that they weren't.
The poster didn't say whether they already HAVE SQL on NT, or whether it might be an option later. Agreed, if they HAVE it already, just use it. If they DON'T have it, spec out the requirements. No doubt SQL Server has many good points, and for most jobs will be stronger than MySQL.
But... if they don't need it, why spend the money? We just completed work for people who bought SQL2000 and 2 W2k boxes, THEN brought in someone to build the website, before it was specced. We built on it, and yes, it worked fine, but for their needs, ONE (maybe two) Linux boxes with MySQL would STILL have been overkill. I have 1 box handling 2-3 times their load, and it's a 300mhz with 128 megs of RAM. They've got 512 meg systems, dual processor 750 mhz, RAID, etc.
Again, nothing wrong with SQL Server, but it's overkill in many situations. We prefer to inform clients of their needs first, and make purchase recommendations after needs analysis, not before.
Yep I have actually -
) ;
// Hostname of our mssql server.
var $Database = "datbase"; // Logical database name on that server.
var $User = "username"; // User und Password for login.
var $Password = "pass";
$this->Link_ID=odbc_pconnect($this->DSN, $this->User,$this->Password,SQL_CUR_USE_IF_NEEDED
is what we use, with var $DSN = "DSN_NAME";
as part of a DB class we use. This is PHP, and the ODBC driver apparently will build the connection string for you. I used to have connection string stuff, but I don't have it with me right now - email me privately if you can't find any and I'll see what I can do.
If you're being overridden based on a higher up's emotional decisions, you may be best to move on, reframe the issue.
*YOU* are the one who will need to support it - if there's a crash at 2am, will your boss be driving in to fix it? Or will you (or someone else in your department?) Remote maintenance of an Access installation will probably require PCAnywhere or something similar - creating DSNs for applications remotely can't, I think, be done solely via Access over a network. (ok, use a raw connection string in the app I guess)
As much as I love MySQL, other open source options may be a better option, depending on concurrency and complexity of the system. But to be fair, if it's something that actually *could* fit in Access, you can most likely do it in MySQL anyway - I think you'll still get better concurrency performance in MySQL than Access.
The MyODBC program has some windows-based setup program. You should be able to just put in the IP address, port, username and password, and you'll have a DSN created. Access should just be able to 'open' than DSN itself and connect you - at least, that's how we do it.
I don't think it's Sybase-based. SQL Server was based off of early Sybase code (SQL 6.5 and Sybase 10(?) were *very* similar), but Access is based around the "Jet" engine, which is pretty dissimilar to Sybase. Just look at the query syntax for an Access query and a SQL server query even. Been very few moderately complex Access queries that I could ever straight drop into a SQL server and have work - there's always porting going on.
Perhaps the very latest version of Access is merged with SQL2000, but I don't think so.
We've got some clients who are comfortable with Access, so they use Access with the MyODBC driver, and hit the MySQL on the back end. They simply update their data in Access, and it's "live" on the site instantly.
:)
That's the only major downside to this - people who work with Access aren't always used to thinking that thousands of people will be affected by their data changes in real time, so we don't give this functionality to all client.
It's also nice for them to be able to create their own reports based on live data from the website, rather than having us build web-based reporting tools. Yes, it's nice extra work, but when you don't have time and/or they have a budget, letting clients develop things how they want with their own tools is a nice option.
A way that I can click on a banner, have it send me, via email, more information, so I can read it later. Registered users of OSDN sites with their email address on file would be given that option.
:(
I don't want every advertiser to have my email address tho. I want OSDN to be the intermediary - have THEM email me more detailed info about the ad I clicked on. Popups would be an alternative, but I HATE having my reading interrupted. I have enough distractions already.
Does no one consider the potential for fraudulent evidence in "cybercourts"? Seeing evidence and testimony via "streaming video" just sounds too precarious to me. If the whole thing was done in court, but you could "optionally" see things digitally, or see evidence digitally, fine. Well, maybe not even then. Did anyone see the "all your base are belong to us" flash movie someone put together? Look at how many real photos were doctored to include "all your base are belong to us" in them. They look REAL. If people start deciding cases based solely on digital evidence, we'll have LONGER court cases trying to prove the validity.
"Without the growth from *purchases* (which business can afford), the economy will not do as well."
People *purchase* our services to set up web/file/print servers. They save money by only purchasing our services, not our services plus licensing fees.
In the many dotcom crashes over the past year, couldn't more of them have used open source to spend a few hundred thousand less on servers/desktops/etc.? Maybe they wouldn't have had to lay off as many people. They could have PURCHASED more/better labor rather than PURCHASE more MS servers (or other closed-source products).
Money will continue to be spent - make no doubt about it. But if open source continues to grow like it has been, it'll be spent less on closed-source software like MS and more on people to actually do the work that needs to be done.
" If every time your user has a problem, you fix it without explaining what caused it, you're going to potentially decrease the learning rate of your user base. In other words, users will commonly repeat the same mistakes, and you will commonly repeat the same fix. "
You're assuming that the problem is one which will repeat itself often. Many times people have a one time problem (printer problem, etc.) that is much easier solved by doing what needs to be done in 30 seconds rather than explaining the entire concept of driver coding ins and outs.
"there are limits to what you can do with 30 year-old technology".
Let's not forget that when we refer to "unix" as a "30 year old technology", MS has been around almost that long as well. More telling, my Windows still has copyright dates from the early 80's in it. Presumably this is a refernce to early MS DOS technology still buried in the OS someplace.
Should I use a technology that's nearly 20 years old? Worded as "20 years old" dates it almost as much. Think back to computers 20 years ago - TI99 and commodore vic 20s were the rage, no? Atari 400, etc. So parts of what is now in Windows was written during the Donkey Kong/Space Invaders years.
Sorry, no, it doesn't work seemlessly. I am unable to simply highlight text in a Konqueror window, copy it, then paste it in my AIM window. Whatever the reasons may be (x/kde/aol/whatever) I can't do that. It's STILL a pain, relative to Windows. Perhaps it's even more frustrating because KDE2 is pretty slick otherwise, yet simple things like this still don't work. Whether it's actually simple to implement or not, it's simple from an end user perspective.
Even more troubling than the point you raised is the notion of privacy. I certainly don't want my tax information I calculate in Excel (hypothetically that is) streaming to MS or anyone else for that matter just to be crunched. It would make far more sense, I'd think, to build in a method to distribute time-sensitive versions of the functions to be executed in a sandbox of sorts. I may only need function X for a week to tweak some numbers, but don't ever need it again. I get the code, it runs locally, then destroys itself. True, the author may be subject to having their IP violated/stolen across the wires, but THEY'D GET PAID. That's the whole model. They'd sell loads of 'use' of their software, with the risk of piracy (which exists now anyway).
Turn this around to the Corel-described Excel example. *I* pay money to send MY data across the wires to SOMEONE ELSE'S SYSTEM (with who knows what type of security model). !?!?!?!
For *trivial* things this might be OK. For serious number crunching, this is, imo, a huge hole.
Lovely idealistic answer, but consider the following:
You end up looking bitter/sour that you didn't get the work before - 'sour grapes', etc. It can take a lot of dancing around to prove your point without making it look like 'whining'. At least, many of the people I've seen try this tack have failed.
"We've already spent our budget". They don't care if you're telling the truth or not - they don't have any money to spend. They're often sitting on thousands (or tens of thousands or more) of licenses for programs that are useless. They can't return them, so they make do.
You pique their interest, they do some research, and find that they WERE screwed. So now they're suspicious of any consultant, and don't trust you.
You end up talking to the person who hired the last 'consultant'. Sitting there outlining point by point how stupid the decision was doesn't often endear you. Also, if the SAME PERSON hires you, you already KNOW this person is stupid. You want to continue to deal with a stupid person? Perhaps some people do, because if the other 'consultant' can pull a fast one, so can you.
This is definitely an area that needs addressing in this industry, but dealing with companies who've been burned can often be a HUGE uphill battle. It CAN be a pretty easy 'sale' as well, but more often than not, I've found, it's not easy.
A java *application* can be small. It's distributing the jvm to make sure that someone has the proper version for your app which can be problematic. If everyone had a current JVM (and they were easy to update), people would write more java applications.
I think the original poster meant 'server side java', but even then, I'd still question that claim about 'most' sites. My guess is that more sites are powered by 'asp/vbscipt' on the server than java on the server.
Even if it's technically correct, I've seen about 20 posts here already saying things like 'CGI sucks - PHP rules!' (I'm a huge PHP fan btw, this is not a PHP slam).
Although the mozilla people mention using it to test CGI programs locally, that seems probably the worst use of this technology. MUCH more interesting would be to tie in existing code (perl, javascript, etc) into one cohesive app, and run it *locally* with the mozilla app as the interface. No need for a net connection at all - you could write apps in Perl and distribute them to be used with a standalone Mozilla machine. Yes it could be done now if you're also shipping a webserver, but this is less to install and maintain.
Think standalone kiosks for starters. I was given a demo of a standalone kiosk system over a year ago (never got off the ground). The machine it came with was an NT box with VB Scripts, SQL server and some other stuff - huge $$$. Yes, you could replicate all of this with Apache/Mysql, etc. This just seems to make it even easier. Rather than treating the browser as just a client, it becomes more integrated - it becomes the app itself. Also, by using this IPC stuff, my Perl scripts can do one thing, my javascripts can do something else, and the mozilla frontend would tie it together (that's my impression, anyway).
I personally am becoming disenchanted with the whole mozilla thing - yes all this stuff is cool, but I think we all just wanted a decent browser about a year ago. Yes, keep developing and adding on, but a small, quick browser (with a netscape 4.7 compatibility toggle switch!) would have helped stave off the decline of this browser technology.
Hmmm...
Do you program at all?
PHP is a language.
"CGI" is NOT a language.
PHP on many virtual hosting environments is running in CGI mode.
Please put a bit more thought into the next post before a knee-jerk post like this. "PHP is great, CGI is bad!". It's not even apples v. oranges, because at least both of those are fruits.
That can't be "real" BASIC - I don't see any line numbers! ;)
Short answer -
:)
Write letters. Get others to do the same. To heck with Touchstone - contact the advertisers directly and tell them that you specifically will NOT do business with them because of this. If you get enough people to do this, it won't matter what type of 'operations' are 'prohibited' - the movie maker won't put this kind of crap in the DVD.
The more I hear about DVD crap like this (region encoding, etc) the less I want one. Just got a new VHS player and it's fine. OK, I can't skip around as quickly, but I CAN skip around!
Bit late to the game here, but for the sake of the archives...
NPR itself might not be hurt too much, but the local NPR affiliates might be.
Think about the type of programming that NPR stations do - often times it's somewhat more indepth reporting on 'offbeat' issues that don't rate much merit on national networks. I'm thinking primarily LOCAL items. LPFM promises to put more local issues and music programming on the air - just the kind of thing that would (short term anyway) cause NPR stations to lose listeners.
All just imo of course...