Let's try collecting similar benchmarks for a multitiered, workflow application for a few hundred users. Now add benchmarks for HOW MUCH TIME DID IT TAKE TO WRITE THE STUPID THING AND GET IT STABLE! My guess would be that the C/C++ version will take from two to ten times longer. My guess would also be that the other languages you mention would be deemed completely inappropriate.
Now, let's take the results of ALL the benchmarks to the big-time, decision-making boss and see who he is willing to make out a check to.
There's also the not so small point that it takes a much higher caliber programming to write code in C++ than in Java, and that those higher caliber programmers are more expensive and harder to find.
You are absolutely right, despite other replies being posted. No, Java is not good for writing operating systems and device drivers. No, Java is not good for creating realtime 3D games. But Java is great for business apps. Think of Java as the replacement for COBOL as well as VB. Enterprise Java Beans IS the future of business software.
As far as the various flavors of mini-Java, I have no clue as to how they will fare. And Jini is cool, but it may be ahead of its time. But the importance of these are miniscule compared to the significance of Java in the business world.
I programmed in Java for a couple of years but recently came back to C++. I switched not because I lost the faith, but because I really prefer systems programming to business apps. And while I love being back closer to the hardware, I really miss language. C++ is very powerful, but it's still a kludge. Java is clean and its extensive libraries are powerful, but its still slow and will never be suited to systems programming.
My problem with the Transvirtual folks is that they sold their soul to the devil. Microsoft enbraced and extended Java with their own proprietary extensions to the language, including new keywords. Transvirtual accepted money from Microsoft to incorporate Microsoft's extensions into Kaffe. Need I say more?
Or perhaps the end of Moore's law will result in a world-wide economic boom.
Since the biggest expense in making computer chips is the manufacturing equipment and facilities, if computer chip designs stabilized, then the life expectancy of chip making equipment would increase and the cost of making chips would go down significantly. Also, software costs might go down because people wouldn't have to upgrade perfectly adequate software because of a processor architecture change. The money not spent on upgrades might be spent on other software which could improve productivity in new areas.
With hardware and software prices dropping like a rock, more folks would be able to afford computer hardware and software, thereby increasing their productivity and value. As more people's incomes increase, the demands for goods and services increases, creating a snowballing growth in the economy. Even the makers of chip manufacturing equipment will do fine because they will be selling more equipment to keep up with the demand.
I don't necessary believe any of this. I just want to play devil's advocate to point out that nobody has a crystal ball.
Besides new technologies will quite likely make this discussion pointless. If electronics can't keep up, perhaps phontonics will take over and send up processor speed by a factor of 1000 over a period of five years totally blowing away Moore and his law. And don't forget about the neural network advancement posted on Slashdot recently.
Certain personality traits make certain people best suited to do certain jobs. Nuturing->caretaker, aggressive->warrior, charismatic->leader, etc. The original article agrees with this by assuming that technologists have a personality trait of geekiness.
If you take a cross section of any society, you will find that each personality trait only exists in only a fixed subset of the population. Therefore, it would appear that supply is limited. However, people without the desired personality traits, i.e. non-geeks, are joining the feast and the market is helping them will tools like Visual Basic. But, alas, even Visual Basic requires a certain amount of geekiness and there is a limit to the number of people even willing to try their hand at a technical job.
So, in response to "Don't get too comfy", I disagree with the statement "we are getting these concessions only because our skills are rare, and not because we are inherently remarkable". Geeks are suited to the job and if demand goes down, the non-geeks will be the first to go. But then again, I don't see demand slackening anytime soon.
I know this is a oversimplified argument, but it still holds. The bottom line is, I feel quite comfy, thank you very much.
The Internet is forcing changes in software development just like everything else it touches.
Lucky for Sun that they make money from hardware. At least they have options for changing their software development model, no matter how feeble their initial response.
Microsoft on the other hand is screwed. The only alternatives I see for them is niche markets and services, neither of which they've done well in the past.
"You can find old programmers And you can find bold programmers But you can't find old, bold programmers."
That's because old programmers have too many scars from running boldly onto the battlefield shooting at anything that moves. Other formerly bold programmers are now dead.
Your attitude is flamebait for many of us who care about the quality of software. It won't be long before the lawyers start to have a field day with our profession because of attitudes like yours.
Here's some clues:
The size of project affects the software process you should use. You may be a good carpenter and can build a doghouse with your eyes closed, but your skills won't get you very far if you need to build a domed stadium.
The sooner that mistakes are caught, the cheaper it is to fix them. For example, it's much better to catch a missed requirement before the code is written than after, and much better than after the customer has bought and installed the software.
The initial code is a very small part of a "product". Users need to know how to use it. Tech writers need to know how to document it. Testers need to know what they are supposed to test. Product managers and sales people need to know what features there are and what features may be added to it in the future. Other programmers need to know how to enhance and maintain it. Etc. etc. And where do you suppose that all of these players are to get their information?
I always wonder if certain companies promote these flamewars to scrounge for new ideas and insights into our thought processes. Oh well. Let the sun shine in.
Uhhh... I guess you just haven't been keeping up. As far as GUIs and usuability are concerned, I suggest you check out some of the recent commercial distributions such as Caldera, Red Hat, etc., etc. And as far as motivations for creating open source software, doesn't the quantity and quality of existing open source software speak for itself? Check out "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric Raymond. And lastly, apparently you aren't aware that our army is bigger, more motivated, and more qualified than your army. Therefore, REVOLUTION!!!
BookPool has the best prices on technical books I've found anywhere, typically 20 to 40 percent off. And they don't tack on bogus "handling" charges. The only book I've seen cheaper at Amazon was the Gang of Four book ("Design Patterns").
They don't have absolutely everything like Amazon, but they've had 95% of every technical book I've looked for.
The only other negative is that they don't usually have as many books in stock, usually around 50%. But they always seem to get them within about week.
I've ordered over a couple thousand dollars worth of books from them and have never had a problem. In the past, I would always go to Amazon to read the reviews and then order from BookPool. However, BookPool has just recently added the same kind of review mechanism that Amazon has.
After a serious plug like this I should probably tell you that I have no affiliation with BookPool and know absolutely nothing about them other than what I've seen on their website.
If somebody knows of a better place to get technical books, please tell me about it.
There was session on Enlightenment at Atlanta Linux Expo last year with Raster and Mandrake. Both of them said that the code had become spaghetti-like as it grew and both of them had worked on a major rewrite.
It's hard to believe that so many people are taking this article serious. Doesn't it bother you when the judging criteria includes:
"Content Quality - In this category, we analyzed government, media, and cultural sites and assigned them overall rankings."
How subjective can you get.
My bias for my hometown has me believing that Atlanta should be higher than #9. Three years ago, Atlanta was the most wired city in the world as a result of the Olympics. I've had cable modem to my house for about eighteen months now. And I've been offered DSL three times in the last six months.
VB people switch to J++ and love it
on
Microsoft's COOL
·
· Score: 1
I'm an old Unix/C guy whose been doing Java for a couple of years now. For the past several months I've been working in a serious Microsoft shop. Originally there was about fifty VBers and about three of us Java developers.
On my current project, several of the VBers have switched to Java, are doing quite well at it, and love it. They are really excited about things like inheritance and reflection. Also they are happy that people won't tell them that they're not real programmers anymore.
What made it all possible was J++. As much as I don't care for Microsoft, they do make real good tools. VBers are so spoiled with good tools that switching to other development environments is just that much more painful. With J++, they got to switch to a "real" language and continue working in a decent development environment.
Believe me when I say J++ is a great development environment. I worked with Symantec Cafe for over a year and it's dog crap compared to J++. (I haven't tried JBuilder yet.) Personally, I'm most comfortable with a command line, but when it comes to GUI development, it's silly not too use one of these tools.
If Microsoft drops J++, our current project will be seriously screwed. However, there would be one very good consequence. Every manager and programmer who didn't think twice about going with J++, will have been bitten once by Microsoft and thereful twice shy about following like sheep a company who puts profits far ahead of customers.
First, Gates would know better. Second, McNeely is as big an asshole as Gates, only dimmer. Third, "kiddes"? What duz that make you. By the way, I'm 39, you dork.
At 6:10 PM there was a teleforum with the heads of Corel and HCC. It wasn't that interesting but here's a few facts that I hadn't heard before:
Corel has sunk about five million Canadian dollars into the Netwinder.
There are 63 employees at Corel Computer. It hasn't been decided what will happen to them but the Corel CEO said that there is already 200 openings in the rest of Corel so nobody should worry.
Corel sold about half a million Canadian dollars worth of Netwinders last quarter with sales accelerating rapidly.
The release of the LC will probably be delayed by a month as a result of this deal.
Slashdot Mirror
Let's try collecting similar benchmarks for a multitiered, workflow application for a few hundred users. Now add benchmarks for HOW MUCH TIME DID IT TAKE TO WRITE THE STUPID THING AND GET IT STABLE! My guess would be that the C/C++ version will take from two to ten times longer. My guess would also be that the other languages you mention would be deemed completely inappropriate.
Now, let's take the results of ALL the benchmarks to the big-time, decision-making boss and see who he is willing to make out a check to.
There's also the not so small point that it takes a much higher caliber programming to write code in C++ than in Java, and that those higher caliber programmers are more expensive and harder to find.
Java is very portable. period.
You are absolutely right, despite other replies being posted. No, Java is not good for writing operating systems and device drivers. No, Java is not good for creating realtime 3D games. But Java is great for business apps. Think of Java as the replacement for COBOL as well as VB. Enterprise Java Beans IS the future of business software.
As far as the various flavors of mini-Java, I have no clue as to how they will fare. And Jini is cool, but it may be ahead of its time. But the importance of these are miniscule compared to the significance of Java in the business world.
I programmed in Java for a couple of years but recently came back to C++. I switched not because I lost the faith, but because I really prefer systems programming to business apps. And while I love being back closer to the hardware, I really miss language. C++ is very powerful, but it's still a kludge. Java is clean and its extensive libraries are powerful, but its still slow and will never be suited to systems programming.
My problem with the Transvirtual folks is that they sold their soul to the devil. Microsoft enbraced and extended Java with their own proprietary extensions to the language, including new keywords. Transvirtual accepted money from Microsoft to incorporate Microsoft's extensions into Kaffe. Need I say more?
Or perhaps the end of Moore's law will result in a world-wide economic boom.
Since the biggest expense in making computer chips is the manufacturing equipment and facilities, if computer chip designs stabilized, then the life expectancy of chip making equipment would increase and the cost of making chips would go down significantly. Also, software costs might go down because people wouldn't have to upgrade perfectly adequate software because of a processor architecture change. The money not spent on upgrades might be spent on other software which could improve productivity in new areas.
With hardware and software prices dropping like a rock, more folks would be able to afford computer hardware and software, thereby increasing their productivity and value. As more people's incomes increase, the demands for goods and services increases, creating a snowballing growth in the economy. Even the makers of chip manufacturing equipment will do fine because they will be selling more equipment to keep up with the demand.
I don't necessary believe any of this. I just want to play devil's advocate to point out that nobody has a crystal ball.
Besides new technologies will quite likely make this discussion pointless. If electronics can't keep up, perhaps phontonics will take over and send up processor speed by a factor of 1000 over a period of five years totally blowing away Moore and his law. And don't forget about the neural network advancement posted on Slashdot recently.
Certain personality traits make certain people best suited to do certain jobs. Nuturing->caretaker, aggressive->warrior, charismatic->leader, etc. The original article agrees with this by assuming that technologists have a personality trait of geekiness.
If you take a cross section of any society, you will find that each personality trait only exists in only a fixed subset of the population. Therefore, it would appear that supply is limited. However, people without the desired personality traits, i.e. non-geeks, are joining the feast and the market is helping them will tools like Visual Basic. But, alas, even Visual Basic requires a certain amount of geekiness and there is a limit to the number of people even willing to try their hand at a technical job.
So, in response to "Don't get too comfy", I disagree with the statement "we are getting these concessions only because our skills are rare, and not because we are inherently remarkable". Geeks are suited to the job and if demand goes down, the non-geeks will be the first to go. But then again, I don't see demand slackening anytime soon.
I know this is a oversimplified argument, but it still holds. The bottom line is, I feel quite comfy, thank you very much.
The whole world can see for itself that "the community" consists of real flesh and blood people rather marketing drones. Keep up the good work guys.
The Internet is forcing changes in software development just like everything else it touches.
Lucky for Sun that they make money from hardware. At least they have options for changing their software development model, no matter how feeble their initial response.
Microsoft on the other hand is screwed. The only alternatives I see for them is niche markets and services, neither of which they've done well in the past.
Where do these ideas come from. Movies? Books? Television news? Certainly not from experience.
Could it be true that people become computer geeks because they are antisocial? Some of these postings certainly suggest it.
More than likely it's that there are assholes in any cross section of the population and this guy is one of them.
"You can find old programmers
And you can find bold programmers
But you can't find old, bold programmers."
That's because old programmers have too many scars from running boldly onto the battlefield shooting at anything that moves. Other formerly bold programmers are now dead.
Your attitude is flamebait for many of us who care about the quality of software. It won't be long before the lawyers start to have a field day with our profession because of attitudes like yours.
Here's some clues:
The size of project affects the software process you should use. You may be a good carpenter and can build a doghouse with your eyes closed, but your skills won't get you very far if you need to build a domed stadium.
The sooner that mistakes are caught, the cheaper it is to fix them. For example, it's much better to catch a missed requirement before the code is written than after, and much better than after the customer has bought and installed the software.
The initial code is a very small part of a "product". Users need to know how to use it. Tech writers need to know how to document it. Testers need to know what they are supposed to test. Product managers and sales people need to know what features there are and what features may be added to it in the future. Other programmers need to know how to enhance and maintain it. Etc. etc. And where do you suppose that all of these players are to get their information?
Ada, too.
I always wonder if certain companies promote these flamewars to scrounge for new ideas and insights into our thought processes. Oh well. Let the sun shine in.
(Yes I know this is off topic.)
blather blather blather
History will speak for itself.
Uhhh... I guess you just haven't been keeping up. As far as GUIs and usuability are concerned, I suggest you check out some of the recent commercial distributions such as Caldera, Red Hat, etc., etc. And as far as motivations for creating open source software, doesn't the quantity and quality of existing open source software speak for itself? Check out "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric Raymond. And lastly, apparently you aren't aware that our army is bigger, more motivated, and more qualified than your army. Therefore, REVOLUTION!!!
(for now).
BookPool has the best prices on technical books I've found anywhere, typically 20 to 40 percent off. And they don't tack on bogus "handling" charges. The only book I've seen cheaper at Amazon was the Gang of Four book ("Design Patterns").
They don't have absolutely everything like Amazon, but they've had 95% of every technical book I've looked for.
The only other negative is that they don't usually have as many books in stock, usually around 50%. But they always seem to get them within about week.
I've ordered over a couple thousand dollars worth of books from them and have never had a problem. In the past, I would always go to Amazon to read the reviews and then order from BookPool. However, BookPool has just recently added the same kind of review mechanism that Amazon has.
After a serious plug like this I should probably tell you that I have no affiliation with BookPool and know absolutely nothing about them other than what I've seen on their website.
If somebody knows of a better place to get technical books, please tell me about it.
- Michael Zauzig
There was session on Enlightenment at Atlanta Linux Expo last year with Raster and Mandrake. Both of them said that the code had become spaghetti-like as it grew and both of them had worked on a major rewrite.
It's hard to believe that so many people are taking this article serious. Doesn't it bother you when the judging criteria includes:
"Content Quality - In this category, we analyzed government, media, and cultural sites and assigned them overall rankings."
How subjective can you get.
My bias for my hometown has me believing that Atlanta should be higher than #9. Three years ago, Atlanta was the most wired city in the world as a result of the Olympics. I've had cable modem to my house for about eighteen months now. And I've been offered DSL three times in the last six months.
I do know about these Summus people though.
Where do you see yourself in five years...
(Correct answer: Who cares. I having fun now.)
Do mercenaries have pride?
I'm an old Unix/C guy whose been doing Java for a couple of years now. For the past several months I've been working in a serious Microsoft shop. Originally there was about fifty VBers and about three of us Java developers.
On my current project, several of the VBers have switched to Java, are doing quite well at it, and love it. They are really excited about things like inheritance and reflection. Also they are happy that people won't tell them that they're not real programmers anymore.
What made it all possible was J++. As much as I don't care for Microsoft, they do make real good tools. VBers are so spoiled with good tools that switching to other development environments is just that much more painful. With J++, they got to switch to a "real" language and continue working in a decent development environment.
Believe me when I say J++ is a great development environment. I worked with Symantec Cafe for over a year and it's dog crap compared to J++. (I haven't tried JBuilder yet.) Personally, I'm most comfortable with a command line, but when it comes to GUI development, it's silly not too use one of these tools.
If Microsoft drops J++, our current project will be seriously screwed. However, there would be one very good consequence. Every manager and programmer who didn't think twice about going with J++, will have been bitten once by Microsoft and thereful twice shy about following like sheep a company who puts profits far ahead of customers.
First, Gates would know better.
Second, McNeely is as big an asshole as Gates, only dimmer.
Third, "kiddes"? What duz that make you.
By the way, I'm 39, you dork.
At 6:10 PM there was a teleforum with the heads of Corel and HCC. It wasn't that interesting but here's a few facts that I hadn't heard before:
Corel has sunk about five million Canadian dollars into the Netwinder.
There are 63 employees at Corel Computer. It hasn't been decided what will happen to them but the Corel CEO said that there is already 200 openings in the rest of Corel so nobody should worry.
Corel sold about half a million Canadian dollars worth of Netwinders last quarter with sales accelerating rapidly.
The release of the LC will probably be delayed by a month as a result of this deal.
That's all I can remember right now.