"It's scientifically known that eating meat is not neccessary. Humans do not need meat in their diet, all they need is fruit and vegetables (uncooked)."
Although people do not require meat, they do in most enviroments require the nutrition provided by meat. I make that distinction because beware, your health is in serious risk of you disregard this fact. We have the adaptions of an omnivore, our bodies can process meat so I think our bodies are made to take advantage of it. You must find substitutes for meat nutritionaly. I'm not a vegitarian but I like to eat and cook vegitarian. Try nutritional yeast, its very tastey and has nessisary vitamin B12 (If I remember correctly).
"Think of the sentient beings that died, and you are eating every time you put a steak in your mouth. I heard they eat horses in France. If they tried to eat one of my polo ponies, I would be extremely pissed off. "
Your pony is your property. It probably enjoys this status... I've heard other forms of life eat animals. What of a lower sentient form like a shark eating a dolphin? What of a Whale eating plankton? What of a lion eating a human? Its all about nature and survival. Life is a limited resource all creatures try to make the best of it. We can observe this. This is something of interest to life that can contemplate it.
"No, there is no excuse for eating meat. Horses don't need meat, cows don't need meat, monkeys don't need meat - and neither do humans, in fact, no living being needs cooked food at all, for that matter."
Its not an excuse, its a life style. Ask any human eating lion...
"It won't solve global warming or change the world. But dang it, thats cool."
Do you have a problem with the sun warming the earth? Now ridding the Sun from the earth.. Thats a big problem!
Thats ironic in a way. I guess nobody is perfect. At any rate, I misread this as a dispute about the ballot itself (see your original subject). Ok, it is possible that the book itself could be misaligned.
"The book is connected to the table, but the way it is hinged so that the pages expose a gap for the hole to show throw, the book itself could have shifted making the holes line up wrong."
I cannot weigh what I do not have clear evidence of. If you can, please post a photograph of the disputed voting table. I draw images pretty well too:
shameless plug> yannitell.com
That aside there must be a probable factor in a missaligned book (as you say there is a possibility of). Certainly not all of these booths had misaligned books, because on cnn.com I see a ballot that is perfectly understandable (to me at least).
One last thing. I think there would be an equal possiblity (if your idea is truth) of a Gore voter mistaking Buchanan as a Gore voter mistaking [whom ever is below Buchanan's marker]. Its a 50/50 split acording to your illustration.
How is GWB's integrity and principles at stake (in this example)?
"these votes probably should have gone to Al Gore"
Votes are for the person they voted for, not just for Al Gore!
This isn't as controversial as much of the media is making it out to be (read, weigh, consider!). The lost canidates should let the EC vote win and never loose hope (the future is wide open). This is not the time to dispute the EC in favor of Gore! That would undermine this entire election. If we change the EC, lets do it legaly for shits sake!!!
If the ballot was missaligned as you postulate It would be difficult to punch the voting apparatus thru the plastic. The ballots wouldn't even be over the holes at all!
If the voters took the time to follow the instructions and line the ballot up with the pegs at the top (if it is like Canaan TWP in Ohio), they wouldn't have to put 5lb (or more) of force to punch thru the plastic (or metal, whatever). If your postulate is correct, there must be many damaged voting apparatuses in Palm Beach County.
good argument (fact). I think I spoke too soon at any rate. This picture:
http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/0 9/election.president/index.html "the disputed Palm Beach County ballot"
I looked at the ballot again. How can this be disputed? I think its pretty clear. I'm going so far as to say that if a voter can't understand this, s/he has no grasp of the issues anyway. They should have stayed at home on election day.
Is there anyone on/. that personaly doesn't see that the arrow pointing from between the canidate (to the hole) is where the voting apparatus is supposed to go? Even in haste? Is 30 seconds too long to think about things at the poll?
first off, I didn't vote for nader, gore, buchanan, or bush. I live in Ohio. I voted in Ohio.
Here is a controversial point, one that many may find appalling. But since it is a free country still (I'm parading my 2c)... Here. Revote those countys. having the whole state of Florida revote is expensive for the voters. If Only 18K or so votes are in question lets eliminate uncertainty. Revote those countys! Isn't this the most fair? I welcome all critism to this idea. Please don't just reply with "thats stupid". Explain why. Thanks!
-- Funny how workers in southeast asian can't afford the sneakers they make, then.
Would you consider southeast asians to have the same rights and privlages as the typical early 20th century american?
America is about opportunity. Opportunity requires responsiblity. If you have no opportunity to be responsible then you are really up the creek. We can choose to be sucessful. Its not easy. But it is possible! Is it possible in south asia? I personaly don't know. Please enlighten..
This point isn't going to be popular around here but:
Rob all the rich to pay all the poor and who will you rob when there aren't anymore rich people?
ASK THE USSR
yours,
Theres no mention of 3D stereoscopy in this "a monitor on your eyeglasses" idea.
Isn't that a logical step?
You have to have two screens (one for the left eye and one for the right eye).
Then all they need is a micro sized free floating "gyro/gymbal" that can resolve the rotation of the head and you've got an inexpensive VR device... but for real.
The technology is not new, its almost as old at THE INVENTION OF PHOTOGRAPHY
A new survey in Business Week, of all places, finds that Americans are getting ticked off about corporate power. In fact a whopping 72% of Americans feel that big businesses have gained too much control over many aspects of their lives.In a variety of ways, abuse of technology is the reason for their unease, the Net the vehicle by which they're expressing it."
-- It would be nice if I actually had this
-- artical so I could see who was actually
-- survayed. So this is the anchor of the
-- arguement?
This feeling, says the BW/Harris Poll survey, is amplified by the Net, "and the discontented who use it." It provides an early-warning system that approximates Paul Revere, says the magazine, a way to spread the word about the latest corporate outrage.
-- Is the survey inacurate because of the Net's
-- amplification effect? Poor metaphor of Paul
-- Revere, BTW.
"With the Internet, information comes instantly," says Harvard University labor economist Richard B. Freeman, "so even if we don't have more people concerned about companies, those who can do more about it."
-- How are these people "doing more about it"?
-- Perfectly banal statement about the internet
-- being fast, we know.
And we do have more people concerned about companies, it appears.
-- How do you figure this? Do you know more than
-- this other fellow, "Richard B. Freeman"? I'm
-- just curious thats all.
The Net seems awash in corporatist machinations. C-Net and other online news services read more like the National Law Journal every day, as the rise of Open Source programming and other trends -- copyright, privacy issues, a nascent movement for social responsibility -- pit the tech culture squarely against closed business practices and the runaway corporate growth that's accelerated dramatically since the 80s, then jumped dramatically again with the explosion of the Net and the Web.
-- This is a funny thing about the internet: the
-- more YOU search, the more YOU find.
The rushed, sometimes panicky entry of large corporations into a culture which is at heart architecturally open and markedly individualistic seems at times like a cultural civil war. Legal conflicts now seem to outstrip technological experimentation, advances and breakthroughs, lawyers getting as rich off the Net as they do in product liability or malpractice suits. Links are now a continuing legal battleground. Recently motion picture companies got a court order barring 2600 Enterprises from linking to sites containing DeCSS code, but that's just one item in a continuing litany of encroachment. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints asked for and received a court order prohibiting a church critic from linking to copyrighted handbooks. Mattel, which makes Cyberpatrol blocking software, took legal action after the cphack.exe program revealed Cyberpatrol's list of blocked Web sites.
-- yes these things are bad. But I don't think it
-- is wise to start a civil war over them. Wars
-- tend to isolate people (with and without
-- factional propaganda). Consider this post #84.
-- We certainly don't need a war on ourselves
-- because ultimately we have nothing but
-- ourselves to blaim for these evils.
--
-- I'm all for questioning and confronting the
-- Particular Power. Its good when somebody
-- submits some info on contacts (ie. you can
-- find your representive with this ).
-- If you're going to say "we are powerless" you
-- must back that idea up with some real evidence
-- Don't just complain our society is impossible
-- to influence, give some examples of what you
-- tried that didn't work.
Then of course there are the ongoing free-music and file-sharing fights, Amazon's efforts to copyright software and Microsoft's legal threats demanding the removal of links (on Slashdot, among other places) to its Kerberos code. Just wait till AOL and Time Warner link up. Thousands of Net-related actions are pending, and most are less about technology than corporate power. The Net evolved free of corporate and government control, but corporations and governments are racing to catch up.
-- Absolutely correct, Jon. We have the power to
-- do as we please and we always will. This is
-- because we have the brains to out think our
-- preditors. If corporations try to control us
-- with technology then.. well? We made the
-- technology in the first place! If a human made
-- it, a human can defeat it. Unless you are a
-- self-defeatist.
In the Business Week survey, Americans gave business credit for the economic good times that have prevailed during the 90s. But the public is also becoming increasingly alarmed at corporate ethics, practices and power.
-- I can't dissagree with this at all!
Nearly 40% of Americans surveyed said they thought profits were more important to corporations than making safe, reliable products. Only 6% said they thought large businesses treated their employees well, and just 8% said companies did a good job of educating consumers about health and safety issues related to their products.
-- BTW, was this an internet poll?
-- sometimes blind surveys are not the best
-- sources of information. Why not ask the
-- corporations what they think of objectives.
-- They might even publish their objectives. If
-- you don't like greedy corporations don't work
-- with them, and certainly don't buy into one.
-- (freedom)
--
-- On the other hand, if you do like greedy
-- corporations, go for it.
-- (liberty)
Protests against Wal-Mart have erupted in more than 100 American cities, and issues ranging from the open distribution of technology to globalism to artistic control of culture to genetically altered food were cited in the survey. Without the news-spreading power of the Net, many of these efforts would probably have faltered.
-- People have funny issues:)
-- With ICQ and an email client I can save the
-- world! Oh joy.
The survey suggests that Americans are finally getting upset at their unchecked power and are coming to believe -- with amazing unanimity -- that large corporations need to be more responsible, ethical and regulated.
-- AH HAHAHA "We the people" need to behave more
-- responsible, ethical and regulated. Why thats
-- the funnyst thing I've ever heard, next to
-- the bill of rights [sarcastic]
This noble sentiment fails to take into account the proprietary and predatory nature of the contemporary global corporation. These companies have only one purpose. They are run by coalitions of analysts, stockholders, investors and executives whose overriding mission is to mass-market products, dominate markets and -- in the end -- maximize profits. There isn't a single CEO of a major corporation who wouldn't get fired in a flash if he or she decided to forego profits in favor of workers or community.
[snip]
-- Again this argument is self-defeatist.
-- Why do you believe this Katz?
This conflict between an individual, entrepeneurial spirit and surging corporatism is the single most significant political conflict on the Net. And if the Net is, in fact, fostering a political/social movement designed to protest, curb or transform corporatism, that could well be the most significant and unexpected contribution to public life that technology has made since e-mail.
-- I don't share this particular opinion, but
-- thats ok, we all have opinions (hopefully).
-- Getting down "the most significant action on
-- the net is pro or anti corportism" is
-- difficult to be a provable fact. If figureing
-- out how to diflect a meteorite to save the
-- earth from certain destruction
-- created "meteordot.org" and it created
-- somekind of knowalage base for it, I'd say
-- that might be big enough to be the biggest
-- fact of activity (on the net). Perhaps not..
Where is CeBit's side? Who were the individuals that were involved in this "play out"? Why would Creativelabs "boycott" CeBit? "Boycott" doesn't seem like the correct terminology for their action. Does this mean Creativelabs are not going to CeBit at all? Are there any other Mp3 hardware/software venders taking a similar action as Creativelabs? ZDnet mentions "the music industry" but are they really implying the "RIAA"?
Where are the protaginist's and antagonist's views on this matter?
I hope these people take into account the second law of thermodynamics which states (in part):
"systems become more disorganised in time"
In any system that is in temperatures above zero K, a form of wear and tear is always present. More wear and tear will occur the higher the temperature. Even high hardness solids at human comfortable temperatures slowly loose there form. Molecules are constantly moving (as in fluids like glass) or vibrating (in solids and also crystals). It is possible that with glass platters the pits could eventually level (eliminating its information content). Are there any mathematical models proving the life span of a glass platter for 50,000 years? CDRs should be out of the question because along with molecular movement there is also very slow chemical changes occuring. CDR substrates have different thermal properties from their acrylic media, they could literally warp right off in little flakes. I've had a number of CDRs do this to me (cheap ones, I'll admit). Hows that for a dead sea scrolls scenerio?
They should be cutting data on laboratory grade sapphire. They should protect that disc with some super heavy duty heat shealding like a raybestos covered relfective dewar (a thermos bottle). Keep that disc cool and free of thermo wear and tear!
Perhaps insead of some kind of ISO cdrom, maybe they should burn images of human readable text on to the disk. It should be as simple as possible for the 50,000s to read it. With just a microscope you don't need to know what:
atapi is
ISO is
ASCII is
You just need to know what the language is. Thats going to be hard enough right there.
Scott
Slashdot Mirror
"It's scientifically known that eating meat is not neccessary. Humans do not need meat in their diet, all they need is fruit and vegetables (uncooked)."
Although people do not require meat, they do in most enviroments require the nutrition provided by meat. I make that distinction because beware, your health is in serious risk of you disregard this fact. We have the adaptions of an omnivore, our bodies can process meat so I think our bodies are made to take advantage of it. You must find substitutes for meat nutritionaly. I'm not a vegitarian but I like to eat and cook vegitarian. Try nutritional yeast, its very tastey and has nessisary vitamin B12 (If I remember correctly).
"Think of the sentient beings that died, and you are eating every time you put a steak in your mouth. I heard they eat horses in France. If they tried to eat one of my polo ponies, I would be extremely pissed off. "
Your pony is your property. It probably enjoys this status... I've heard other forms of life eat animals. What of a lower sentient form like a shark eating a dolphin? What of a Whale eating plankton? What of a lion eating a human? Its all about nature and survival. Life is a limited resource all creatures try to make the best of it. We can observe this. This is something of interest to life that can contemplate it.
"No, there is no excuse for eating meat. Horses don't need meat, cows don't need meat, monkeys don't need meat - and neither do humans, in fact, no living being needs cooked food at all, for that matter."
Its not an excuse, its a life style. Ask any human eating lion...
"It won't solve global warming or change the world. But dang it, thats cool."
Do you have a problem with the sun warming the earth? Now ridding the Sun from the earth.. Thats a big problem!
Thats ironic in a way. I guess nobody is perfect. At any rate, I misread this as a dispute about the ballot itself (see your original subject). Ok, it is possible that the book itself could be misaligned.
"The book is connected to the table, but the way it is hinged so that the pages expose a gap for the hole to show throw, the book itself could have shifted making the holes line up wrong."
I cannot weigh what I do not have clear evidence of. If you can, please post a photograph of the disputed voting table. I draw images pretty well too:
shameless plug> yannitell.com
That aside there must be a probable factor in a missaligned book (as you say there is a possibility of). Certainly not all of these booths had misaligned books, because on cnn.com I see a ballot that is perfectly understandable (to me at least).
One last thing. I think there would be an equal possiblity (if your idea is truth) of a Gore voter mistaking Buchanan as a Gore voter mistaking [whom ever is below Buchanan's marker]. Its a 50/50 split acording to your illustration.
what am I missing here?
Scott
How is GWB's integrity and principles at stake (in this example)?
"these votes probably should have gone to Al Gore"
Votes are for the person they voted for, not just for Al Gore!
This isn't as controversial as much of the media is making it out to be (read, weigh, consider!). The lost canidates should let the EC vote win and never loose hope (the future is wide open). This is not the time to dispute the EC in favor of Gore! That would undermine this entire election. If we change the EC, lets do it legaly for shits sake!!!
Scott
You are forgeting something crucial.
If the ballot was missaligned as you postulate It would be difficult to punch the voting apparatus thru the plastic. The ballots wouldn't even be over the holes at all!
If the voters took the time to follow the instructions and line the ballot up with the pegs at the top (if it is like Canaan TWP in Ohio), they wouldn't have to put 5lb (or more) of force to punch thru the plastic (or metal, whatever). If your postulate is correct, there must be many damaged voting apparatuses in Palm Beach County.
Now what am I missing here?
Scott
good argument (fact). I think I spoke too soon at any rate. This picture:
0 9/election.president/index.html "the disputed Palm Beach County ballot"
/. that personaly doesn't see that the arrow pointing from between the canidate (to the hole) is where the voting apparatus is supposed to go? Even in haste? Is 30 seconds too long to think about things at the poll?
http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/
I looked at the ballot again. How can this be disputed? I think its pretty clear. I'm going so far as to say that if a voter can't understand this, s/he has no grasp of the issues anyway. They should have stayed at home on election day.
Is there anyone on
Scott
first off, I didn't vote for nader, gore, buchanan, or bush. I live in Ohio. I voted in Ohio.
Here is a controversial point, one that many may find appalling. But since it is a free country still (I'm parading my 2c)... Here. Revote those countys. having the whole state of Florida revote is expensive for the voters. If Only 18K or so votes are in question lets eliminate uncertainty. Revote those countys! Isn't this the most fair? I welcome all critism to this idea. Please don't just reply with "thats stupid". Explain why. Thanks!
-- Funny how workers in southeast asian can't afford the sneakers they make, then. Would you consider southeast asians to have the same rights and privlages as the typical early 20th century american? America is about opportunity. Opportunity requires responsiblity. If you have no opportunity to be responsible then you are really up the creek. We can choose to be sucessful. Its not easy. But it is possible! Is it possible in south asia? I personaly don't know. Please enlighten.. This point isn't going to be popular around here but: Rob all the rich to pay all the poor and who will you rob when there aren't anymore rich people? ASK THE USSR yours,
Theres no mention of 3D stereoscopy in this "a monitor on your eyeglasses" idea.
Isn't that a logical step?
You have to have two screens (one for the left eye and one for the right eye).
Then all they need is a micro sized free floating "gyro/gymbal" that can resolve the rotation of the head and you've got an inexpensive VR device... but for real.
The technology is not new, its almost as old at THE INVENTION OF PHOTOGRAPHY
-- my reply to this artical
:)
A new survey in Business Week, of all places, finds that Americans are getting ticked off about corporate power. In fact a whopping 72% of Americans feel that big businesses have gained too much control over many aspects of their lives.In a variety of ways, abuse of technology is the reason for their unease, the Net the vehicle by which they're expressing it."
-- It would be nice if I actually had this
-- artical so I could see who was actually
-- survayed. So this is the anchor of the
-- arguement?
This feeling, says the BW/Harris Poll survey, is amplified by the Net, "and the discontented who use it." It provides an early-warning system that approximates Paul Revere, says the magazine, a way to spread the word about the latest corporate outrage.
-- Is the survey inacurate because of the Net's
-- amplification effect? Poor metaphor of Paul
-- Revere, BTW.
"With the Internet, information comes instantly," says Harvard University labor economist Richard B. Freeman, "so even if we don't have more people concerned about companies, those who can do more about it."
-- How are these people "doing more about it"?
-- Perfectly banal statement about the internet
-- being fast, we know.
And we do have more people concerned about companies, it appears.
-- How do you figure this? Do you know more than
-- this other fellow, "Richard B. Freeman"? I'm
-- just curious thats all.
The Net seems awash in corporatist machinations. C-Net and other online news services read more like the National Law Journal every day, as the rise of Open Source programming and other trends -- copyright, privacy issues, a nascent movement for social responsibility -- pit the tech culture squarely against closed business practices and the runaway corporate growth that's accelerated dramatically since the 80s, then jumped dramatically again with the explosion of the Net and the Web.
-- This is a funny thing about the internet: the
-- more YOU search, the more YOU find.
The rushed, sometimes panicky entry of large corporations into a culture which is at heart architecturally open and markedly individualistic seems at times like a cultural civil war. Legal conflicts now seem to outstrip technological experimentation, advances and breakthroughs, lawyers getting as rich off the Net as they do in product liability or malpractice suits. Links are now a continuing legal battleground. Recently motion picture companies got a court order barring 2600 Enterprises from linking to sites containing DeCSS code, but that's just one item in a continuing litany of encroachment. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints asked for and received a court order prohibiting a church critic from linking to copyrighted handbooks. Mattel, which makes Cyberpatrol blocking software, took legal action after the cphack.exe program revealed Cyberpatrol's list of blocked Web sites.
-- yes these things are bad. But I don't think it
-- is wise to start a civil war over them. Wars
-- tend to isolate people (with and without
-- factional propaganda). Consider this post #84.
-- We certainly don't need a war on ourselves
-- because ultimately we have nothing but
-- ourselves to blaim for these evils.
--
-- I'm all for questioning and confronting the
-- Particular Power. Its good when somebody
-- submits some info on contacts (ie. you can
-- find your representive with this ).
-- If you're going to say "we are powerless" you
-- must back that idea up with some real evidence
-- Don't just complain our society is impossible
-- to influence, give some examples of what you
-- tried that didn't work.
Then of course there are the ongoing free-music and file-sharing fights, Amazon's efforts to copyright software and Microsoft's legal threats demanding the removal of links (on Slashdot, among other places) to its Kerberos code. Just wait till AOL and Time Warner link up. Thousands of Net-related actions are pending, and most are less about technology than corporate power. The Net evolved free of corporate and government control, but corporations and governments are racing to catch up.
-- Absolutely correct, Jon. We have the power to
-- do as we please and we always will. This is
-- because we have the brains to out think our
-- preditors. If corporations try to control us
-- with technology then.. well? We made the
-- technology in the first place! If a human made
-- it, a human can defeat it. Unless you are a
-- self-defeatist.
In the Business Week survey, Americans gave business credit for the economic good times that have prevailed during the 90s. But the public is also becoming increasingly alarmed at corporate ethics, practices and power.
-- I can't dissagree with this at all!
Nearly 40% of Americans surveyed said they thought profits were more important to corporations than making safe, reliable products. Only 6% said they thought large businesses treated their employees well, and just 8% said companies did a good job of educating consumers about health and safety issues related to their products.
-- BTW, was this an internet poll?
-- sometimes blind surveys are not the best
-- sources of information. Why not ask the
-- corporations what they think of objectives.
-- They might even publish their objectives. If
-- you don't like greedy corporations don't work
-- with them, and certainly don't buy into one.
-- (freedom)
--
-- On the other hand, if you do like greedy
-- corporations, go for it.
-- (liberty)
Protests against Wal-Mart have erupted in more than 100 American cities, and issues ranging from the open distribution of technology to globalism to artistic control of culture to genetically altered food were cited in the survey. Without the news-spreading power of the Net, many of these efforts would probably have faltered.
-- People have funny issues
-- With ICQ and an email client I can save the
-- world! Oh joy.
The survey suggests that Americans are finally getting upset at their unchecked power and are coming to believe -- with amazing unanimity -- that large corporations need to be more responsible, ethical and regulated.
-- AH HAHAHA "We the people" need to behave more
-- responsible, ethical and regulated. Why thats
-- the funnyst thing I've ever heard, next to
-- the bill of rights [sarcastic]
This noble sentiment fails to take into account the proprietary and predatory nature of the contemporary global corporation. These companies have only one purpose. They are run by coalitions of analysts, stockholders, investors and executives whose overriding mission is to mass-market products, dominate markets and -- in the end -- maximize profits. There isn't a single CEO of a major corporation who wouldn't get fired in a flash if he or she decided to forego profits in favor of workers or community.
[snip]
-- Again this argument is self-defeatist.
-- Why do you believe this Katz?
This conflict between an individual, entrepeneurial spirit and surging corporatism is the single most significant political conflict on the Net. And if the Net is, in fact, fostering a political/social movement designed to protest, curb or transform corporatism, that could well be the most significant and unexpected contribution to public life that technology has made since e-mail.
-- I don't share this particular opinion, but
-- thats ok, we all have opinions (hopefully).
-- Getting down "the most significant action on
-- the net is pro or anti corportism" is
-- difficult to be a provable fact. If figureing
-- out how to diflect a meteorite to save the
-- earth from certain destruction
-- created "meteordot.org" and it created
-- somekind of knowalage base for it, I'd say
-- that might be big enough to be the biggest
-- fact of activity (on the net). Perhaps not..
-- scott yannitell
Where is CeBit's side? Who were the individuals that were involved in this "play out"? Why would Creativelabs "boycott" CeBit? "Boycott" doesn't seem like the correct terminology for their action. Does this mean Creativelabs are not going to CeBit at all? Are there any other Mp3 hardware/software venders taking a similar action as Creativelabs? ZDnet mentions "the music industry" but are they really implying the "RIAA"?
Where are the protaginist's and antagonist's views on this matter?
weak journalism
-Scott
I hope these people take into account the second law of thermodynamics which states (in part): "systems become more disorganised in time" In any system that is in temperatures above zero K, a form of wear and tear is always present. More wear and tear will occur the higher the temperature. Even high hardness solids at human comfortable temperatures slowly loose there form. Molecules are constantly moving (as in fluids like glass) or vibrating (in solids and also crystals). It is possible that with glass platters the pits could eventually level (eliminating its information content). Are there any mathematical models proving the life span of a glass platter for 50,000 years? CDRs should be out of the question because along with molecular movement there is also very slow chemical changes occuring. CDR substrates have different thermal properties from their acrylic media, they could literally warp right off in little flakes. I've had a number of CDRs do this to me (cheap ones, I'll admit). Hows that for a dead sea scrolls scenerio? They should be cutting data on laboratory grade sapphire. They should protect that disc with some super heavy duty heat shealding like a raybestos covered relfective dewar (a thermos bottle). Keep that disc cool and free of thermo wear and tear! Perhaps insead of some kind of ISO cdrom, maybe they should burn images of human readable text on to the disk. It should be as simple as possible for the 50,000s to read it. With just a microscope you don't need to know what: atapi is ISO is ASCII is You just need to know what the language is. Thats going to be hard enough right there. Scott