Zimbra has a pretty good OS edition, which integrates in pretty well with Exchange. If you want to use Outlook instead, you can get the professional edition which has some added functionality, but it's not as if the OS version is crippled.
This is in line with usual practices. I don't think I have seen a free Outlook Sync yet anywhere.
HULA is C, not C++. It is also built ontop of standards. IMAP, SMTP, etc. I am not talking about standards, I am talking about the open source stack. Use or migrate to what's already proven and out there with mind share as opposed to pushing your own incompatible LDAP system (never integrated AFAIK with other LDAP systems - certainly not with Active Directory) as opposed to continuing a system with a severe case of NIH.
Tomcat? Wtf has a java j2ee container got to do with a web server? You seem to be confused. Tomcat is a servlet/jsf container, not just (or even primarily) a J2EE container. Look at JBOSS for that. Tomcat is a primary way to serve JSF files, which puts it squarely in the dynamic web serving category. Hula had (last I looked, which was about 3 months ago) it's own web server for quite a while.
Sendmail is not, it is just an, unfortunately, still popular implementation of some standards -- Sendmail has the advantage of being the one true way to send SMTP email for a very long time. Postfix, Q-Mail and others have stepped into that role. The bottom line still is that I don't see anyone here making any kind of argument that somehow Hula's mail stack was a industry leader or as well tested as any of thoose aforementioned packages.
A web server is nothing particularly special anyway, particularly when you're serving fully dynamic content. So adding another web server for system admins to learn how to admin on top of what they already do is justified? Requiring all Hula developers to learn a different stack is not a good path for adoption of the technology.
The architecture wasn't particularly well documented, but it was simple, about as simple as it can get. But it was different. That's what people fail to understand. Requiring developers and administrators to learn completely new functionality that could just as easily be based off of other much more widely accepted open technologies is a sure way to loose developer interest. Is SMTP + Backing Store + LDAP + Web front end that hard to understand? Yes, if ever piece of it is proprietary, no if it's Postfix + MySQL + OpenLDAP + Tomcat/Apache.
Why not just say it was too immature for you or you didn't like it, and leave it at that.
Your right. I didn't like Hula once I got past the "gee-whiz" factor and actually started looking at code. And a year later, the reasons I didn't like the hula code still hold. Here is the rub, as a IT consultant (who has installed several 1000+ user email solutions on everything from Exchange to Sendmail + LDAP) I am out there promoting the daylight out of solutions that are not Hula. As a open source contributor I write code for solutions not Hula. And sadly, I still move people from Linux to Windows because their linux solution can't compete with Exchange.
I use both Outlook (for work) and Zimbra (for home). Zimbra's interface is a bit slower getting started (the Zimbra guys need to do some sped work), but other then that it's just as responsive as Outlook, and it has drag and drop, inline spell check, awesome documents support (in beta now) and you can pull it up with any modern browser.
I know I am coming off as a Zimbra troll here, but the amount of wrong information that is floating here is non trivial.
Guess I missed that in my MCSE track;-) I could have sworn that my design test had something to do with it... I guess all the thousands of users at Denver hospitals that run outlook that talk to a exchange server that I setup don't really use any of the features.. In fact the sendmail choke mail boxes that talk to active directory before the exchange cluster? Those don't work either.
If you want to make a point, don't do it by making stupid assumptions. And I highly suggest you try out Zimbra. You might just get a bit of a surprise.
This is absolutely correct. I have seen more UNIX/Linux shops closed because of the need for integrated mail, documents and calenders then for any other reason. First the execs demand mail, then calender, then wonder why they are paying for both Windows and Linux support... then Linux support goes bye bye, and the microsoft lock in factor hits.
Hula wasn't able to do anything without a huge amount of duct-tape and bailing wire. Even if you did manage by some mircle to get it working, replacing all of the sendmail, httpd and ldap servers, you could not integrate with ActiveDirectory, could not add functionality to the stack, had a web interface that was just plain ugly (dragonfly is much better) and could not easily integrate with most of the anti spam systems out there.
More to the point, they had a core crew that looked at JWZ, declared him God, read his statements, proclaimed them good, and then immediately replayed every single mistake that Mozilla ever made.
Hula needed to be simple, clean and functional. Even know a year later, it is none of those things.
I was very excited about Hula when it was first announced. I quickly became less enthusastic until I discovered Zimbra, which I have been using since Beta 1 days (it's not version 4.5RC1).
As far as the microsoft angle goes, I don't think it is nearly as open and shut as that. Hula had a variety of problems that were difficult to overcome. Almost all of those problems are centered around the underly platform.
There is always a question of building on top of the existing stack, or replacing the stack. Hula choose to replace the stack rather then build on top of industry standards
Hula's C++ mail server duplicates sendmail and postfix. That means you loose the time tested nature of sendmail and postfix and replace it with buggy and possibly insecure mail. That's a problem.
That stack also had a proprietary web server. You loose all the work in apache and tomcat.
Your new code in on python? Look I know that Python is a pretty piece of work, but it is not something that clients are going to get excited about supporting. Open source means you eat your own dogfood, and very few companies are willing to find python experts to support their mail platform.
Anyone who thinks that Hula had any kind of momentum at all before this announcement is ignoring the fundamental architectural problems that killed the project months and months ago. Something may emerge from the ashes. Zimbra has proven it can be done, but it will have to be a firefox to this convoluted and bloated Mozilla.
Once again, go take a look at Zimbra. There was a article in the Wall Street Journal a few weeks ago that was front page even that covered the traction Zimbra is getting. It even mentioned that Microsoft and specifically Bill G knew about Zimbra, and were starting to have customers bring it up. That's the kind of product the open source world needs in this space.
I really highly suggest people look at Zimbra. It has 4+million (IIRC) installed mailboxes, is built on top of FOSS (notably Postfix, DSPAM, Spamassassin and Amavis for the mail delivery, and AJAX + Javascript for the web front end). The development proccess is not as transparent as it should be, but bugzilla, subversion and the forums provide more then enough information to get going.
And yes, this the product that needs to be made for Linux to continue it's dominance in the internet world, and give it a strong entry into the intranet world.
Law enforcement has a large database from convictions of people who this kind of crap. Part of that database is a fairly complex hash. If that has can be made significantly difficult to fool, you have a easy way to build a 90% tool...
And frankly, someone needs to do this. The rule of the internet is being forgotten, which is that it is far better to regulate yourself, then to let your government do it for you.
Of course, the usual suspects started this article with the same age-old trick of comparing Canada to China, and the United States to Nazi germany for daring to do something that they might not like.
Just as a question, (because frankly I have not seen the community come to grips with the fact that there is still child pornography available easily on the interest), how do you want to handle this problem?
Babylon 5's time has come and gone. That's not to take anything away from it. It represented a age where only Star Trek existed. All of the Sci-Fi series that have started to get traction sense, in particular Firefly, Stargate and Firefly have benefited from it leading the way. Even some of the more mainstream series like LOST, which has the actress Mira Furlan who played Delenn on B5, are in it's footsteps to some degree.
But we have also moved past that story into new and interesting stories with much higher production values. I hope for the series, but I think that when you go back and look at B5, you have to appreciate what it did, rather then what it is now (which is dated, and a bit cliched).
Honestly, This seems completly behind the time. The lesson of Gmail is that uses will accept less functionality in exchange for more universal access. Take a look at Zimbra if you want to see a real exchange killer.
As someone who has tried to do what you suggest, and then worked in pain to deal with all of the cross browser issues, the strange XMLHttpRequest behavior, systems for relability,etc, the bloat is well worth it.
If I had to pick a solution for the world to use for rich internet applications, I'd choose OpenLaszlo over Java Applets, Java WebStart, Macromedia Flex, DHTML, etc.
The great news is, the way they are going, you won't have to. Right now Laslo interpretes the code to DHTML and Flash.I hope someday they do a XUL port as well. But anyway you look at it, you will be able to at least code your app in something friendlier then Javascript, and relegate Javascript to just simple glue and scripts, what it was designed for, rather then writing everything from scratch in Javascript.
Honestly, Zimbra (which is AJAX based) is one of the most exciting and intuitive applications I have seen yet. The Zimbra model (where the front end is a completly seperate application independent of the backend) really raises the bar on what the web experience should be whil managing data. Note, that AJAX is usually a poor choice for the read only web which seems to be what you are highlighting here.
Because of the popularity of Mash Ups. Ie, I want to be able to pull a list of books from Amazon, or a shipping status from FEDEX using Zimbra. Zimbra and Laszlo both have a model where the front end applicaiton is completly distinct (as it should be IMHO) from the backend. Hence, more funtionality is needed.
On the other hand, I would like to see Browser manufacturors add the ability to do cross site calls, but with some security system behind it.
Guess what, you are not the judge, you don't get to make that determination.
Funny how critics of the Bush Administration are all for "Law and Justice" until it actually applies to then. I guess the court system doesn't have any validity if it isn't doing what they want?
Warrent's are the correct channel for criminal prosecution. But Al Qaeda is not a criminal organization, they are a terrorist organization. The US does not have the means to prosecute a criminal globally except in a few rare circumstances. Hence we need mechanisms for intelligence that are governed differently (note not laxer, just targeted around intelligence)
I agree that Republicanism is the worst form of government, except for all the others. But we still have to make trade offs for security. We do have to understand how terrorism actually works. So far I have yet to see anyone prosecuted soley because of a illegal warrant, or wiretap without authorization. Now that the administration backtracked on Padilla, we won't see it happen, because no judge would move forward on a case without the standard set of warrants etc.
I am glad people are concerned about these issues. But there does need to be some avenue for the government to actually have a functioning intelligence system. Warrents are for criminal prosecution. This is about foreign intelligence.
Just curious, but has anyone thought that our own government might not be the bad guys here? That they might actually be trying to use these records to rapidly roll up terrorist groups after a initial attack instead of having to arrest 5000+ in the aftermath of 9/11? Maybe that they are legitimately trying to build in a system that allows them to protect Americans?
Anyone think that maybe there might be good and legitimate reasons for this system? I know that I am about to taste the wrath of/. for daring to question the mindthink, but there is a role for government here to actually analyze and stop terrorist attacks, preferabley before they kill Americans.
We have a intelligence committee in the congress for a reason. They have a job to do to oversee this. I am sure the self-important judiciary committee will get into this as well. Involving some random judge who doesn't have security clerence and special interst groups (who I tend to agree with) when they are not my elected representatives may not be the best thing here. We live in a representitive democracy, let's work through the correct channels there.
No. The terrorists have won when the killed you and forced you to let them kill all the Jews, ban all the women, stone all the Hindus, and whipped all the children.
You miss the point. The problem was that the Titanic was overtopping the vertical dividers that were designed to keep areas os the ship isolated in case of a accident. If it were a issue with a total failure along the entire ship, then yes, counterflooding would be bad. The idea is to minimize when the tipping occurs to keep the ship slowly sinking, instead of rapidly sinking when the barriers were overtopped.
Engineering estimates is that it might have added 3-5 hours onto titanics lifespan, enough to save lives, even if not enough to preserve the ship till help arrived.
It also should be noted that for some insane reason, the Titanic crew didn't counterflood. If they had they might have been able to significantly slow down the entire drop of the ship, and almost certainly the frame of the ship would have remained intact on the water rather then having the stern of the ship rise out of the water, and then the entire ship snapping.
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Zimbra has a pretty good OS edition, which integrates in pretty well with Exchange. If you want to use Outlook instead, you can get the professional edition which has some added functionality, but it's not as if the OS version is crippled.
This is in line with usual practices. I don't think I have seen a free Outlook Sync yet anywhere.
Why not just say it was too immature for you or you didn't like it, and leave it at that.
Your right. I didn't like Hula once I got past the "gee-whiz" factor and actually started looking at code. And a year later, the reasons I didn't like the hula code still hold. Here is the rub, as a IT consultant (who has installed several 1000+ user email solutions on everything from Exchange to Sendmail + LDAP) I am out there promoting the daylight out of solutions that are not Hula. As a open source contributor I write code for solutions not Hula. And sadly, I still move people from Linux to Windows because their linux solution can't compete with Exchange.
I use both Outlook (for work) and Zimbra (for home). Zimbra's interface is a bit slower getting started (the Zimbra guys need to do some sped work), but other then that it's just as responsive as Outlook, and it has drag and drop, inline spell check, awesome documents support (in beta now) and you can pull it up with any modern browser.
I know I am coming off as a Zimbra troll here, but the amount of wrong information that is floating here is non trivial.
Actually Zimbra does. It will use AD both for contact lookup and authentication.
Guess I missed that in my MCSE track ;-) I could have sworn that my design test had something to do with it... I guess all the thousands of users at Denver hospitals that run outlook that talk to a exchange server that I setup don't really use any of the features.. In fact the sendmail choke mail boxes that talk to active directory before the exchange cluster? Those don't work either.
If you want to make a point, don't do it by making stupid assumptions. And I highly suggest you try out Zimbra. You might just get a bit of a surprise.
This is absolutely correct. I have seen more UNIX/Linux shops closed because of the need for integrated mail, documents and calenders then for any other reason. First the execs demand mail, then calender, then wonder why they are paying for both Windows and Linux support... then Linux support goes bye bye, and the microsoft lock in factor hits.
Hula wasn't able to do anything without a huge amount of duct-tape and bailing wire. Even if you did manage by some mircle to get it working, replacing all of the sendmail, httpd and ldap servers, you could not integrate with ActiveDirectory, could not add functionality to the stack, had a web interface that was just plain ugly (dragonfly is much better) and could not easily integrate with most of the anti spam systems out there.
More to the point, they had a core crew that looked at JWZ, declared him God, read his statements, proclaimed them good, and then immediately replayed every single mistake that Mozilla ever made.
Hula needed to be simple, clean and functional. Even know a year later, it is none of those things.
As far as the microsoft angle goes, I don't think it is nearly as open and shut as that. Hula had a variety of problems that were difficult to overcome. Almost all of those problems are centered around the underly platform.
Anyone who thinks that Hula had any kind of momentum at all before this announcement is ignoring the fundamental architectural problems that killed the project months and months ago. Something may emerge from the ashes. Zimbra has proven it can be done, but it will have to be a firefox to this convoluted and bloated Mozilla.
Once again, go take a look at Zimbra. There was a article in the Wall Street Journal a few weeks ago that was front page even that covered the traction Zimbra is getting. It even mentioned that Microsoft and specifically Bill G knew about Zimbra, and were starting to have customers bring it up. That's the kind of product the open source world needs in this space.
I really highly suggest people look at Zimbra. It has 4+million (IIRC) installed mailboxes, is built on top of FOSS (notably Postfix, DSPAM, Spamassassin and Amavis for the mail delivery, and AJAX + Javascript for the web front end). The development proccess is not as transparent as it should be, but bugzilla, subversion and the forums provide more then enough information to get going.
And yes, this the product that needs to be made for Linux to continue it's dominance in the internet world, and give it a strong entry into the intranet world.
Law enforcement has a large database from convictions of people who this kind of crap. Part of that database is a fairly complex hash. If that has can be made significantly difficult to fool, you have a easy way to build a 90% tool...
And frankly, someone needs to do this. The rule of the internet is being forgotten, which is that it is far better to regulate yourself, then to let your government do it for you.
Of course, the usual suspects started this article with the same age-old trick of comparing Canada to China, and the United States to Nazi germany for daring to do something that they might not like.
Just as a question, (because frankly I have not seen the community come to grips with the fact that there is still child pornography available easily on the interest), how do you want to handle this problem?
Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?
Babylon 5's time has come and gone. That's not to take anything away from it. It represented a age where only Star Trek existed. All of the Sci-Fi series that have started to get traction sense, in particular Firefly, Stargate and Firefly have benefited from it leading the way. Even some of the more mainstream series like LOST, which has the actress Mira Furlan who played Delenn on B5, are in it's footsteps to some degree.
But we have also moved past that story into new and interesting stories with much higher production values. I hope for the series, but I think that when you go back and look at B5, you have to appreciate what it did, rather then what it is now (which is dated, and a bit cliched).
Not that I won't buy it anyways I suppose.
Honestly, This seems completly behind the time. The lesson of Gmail is that uses will accept less functionality in exchange for more universal access. Take a look at Zimbra if you want to see a real exchange killer.
As someone who has tried to do what you suggest, and then worked in pain to deal with all of the cross browser issues, the strange XMLHttpRequest behavior, systems for relability,etc, the bloat is well worth it.
If I had to pick a solution for the world to use for rich internet applications, I'd choose OpenLaszlo over Java Applets, Java WebStart, Macromedia Flex, DHTML, etc.
The great news is, the way they are going, you won't have to. Right now Laslo interpretes the code to DHTML and Flash.I hope someday they do a XUL port as well. But anyway you look at it, you will be able to at least code your app in something friendlier then Javascript, and relegate Javascript to just simple glue and scripts, what it was designed for, rather then writing everything from scratch in Javascript.
Honestly, Zimbra (which is AJAX based) is one of the most exciting and intuitive applications I have seen yet. The Zimbra model (where the front end is a completly seperate application independent of the backend) really raises the bar on what the web experience should be whil managing data. Note, that AJAX is usually a poor choice for the read only web which seems to be what you are highlighting here.
Because of the popularity of Mash Ups. Ie, I want to be able to pull a list of books from Amazon, or a shipping status from FEDEX using Zimbra. Zimbra and Laszlo both have a model where the front end applicaiton is completly distinct (as it should be IMHO) from the backend. Hence, more funtionality is needed.
On the other hand, I would like to see Browser manufacturors add the ability to do cross site calls, but with some security system behind it.
Guess what, you are not the judge, you don't get to make that determination.
Funny how critics of the Bush Administration are all for "Law and Justice" until it actually applies to then. I guess the court system doesn't have any validity if it isn't doing what they want?
Warrent's are the correct channel for criminal prosecution. But Al Qaeda is not a criminal organization, they are a terrorist organization. The US does not have the means to prosecute a criminal globally except in a few rare circumstances. Hence we need mechanisms for intelligence that are governed differently (note not laxer, just targeted around intelligence)
I agree that Republicanism is the worst form of government, except for all the others. But we still have to make trade offs for security. We do have to understand how terrorism actually works. So far I have yet to see anyone prosecuted soley because of a illegal warrant, or wiretap without authorization. Now that the administration backtracked on Padilla, we won't see it happen, because no judge would move forward on a case without the standard set of warrants etc.
I am glad people are concerned about these issues. But there does need to be some avenue for the government to actually have a functioning intelligence system. Warrents are for criminal prosecution. This is about foreign intelligence.
Just curious, but has anyone thought that our own government might not be the bad guys here? That they might actually be trying to use these records to rapidly roll up terrorist groups after a initial attack instead of having to arrest 5000+ in the aftermath of 9/11? Maybe that they are legitimately trying to build in a system that allows them to protect Americans?
/. for daring to question the mindthink, but there is a role for government here to actually analyze and stop terrorist attacks, preferabley before they kill Americans.
Anyone think that maybe there might be good and legitimate reasons for this system? I know that I am about to taste the wrath of
We have a intelligence committee in the congress for a reason. They have a job to do to oversee this. I am sure the self-important judiciary committee will get into this as well. Involving some random judge who doesn't have security clerence and special interst groups (who I tend to agree with) when they are not my elected representatives may not be the best thing here. We live in a representitive democracy, let's work through the correct channels there.
No. The terrorists have won when the killed you and forced you to let them kill all the Jews, ban all the women, stone all the Hindus, and whipped all the children.
Or did you think this was a war on republicans?
You miss the point. The problem was that the Titanic was overtopping the vertical dividers that were designed to keep areas os the ship isolated in case of a accident. If it were a issue with a total failure along the entire ship, then yes, counterflooding would be bad. The idea is to minimize when the tipping occurs to keep the ship slowly sinking, instead of rapidly sinking when the barriers were overtopped.
Engineering estimates is that it might have added 3-5 hours onto titanics lifespan, enough to save lives, even if not enough to preserve the ship till help arrived.
It also should be noted that for some insane reason, the Titanic crew didn't counterflood. If they had they might have been able to significantly slow down the entire drop of the ship, and almost certainly the frame of the ship would have remained intact on the water rather then having the stern of the ship rise out of the water, and then the entire ship snapping.