Then slowly as the ps3 gains traction along with cost reductions in manufacturing and increasing tech availible for the ps3 you'll see the ps3 come back in 2008 as a dominating system.
A failing console making a comeback after being almost two years on the market is something that - as far as I can remember - has never happened in this business, and I don't think it will ever happen. The reason is simple:
If a console starts to lose ground, developers start to abandon it. The console will see less exclusives, and the cross-platform games will be shoddier on that console. Hence, its appeal to consumers will decrease, which will make it fail even quicker, decreasing the chance of a comeback.
Owning both a Wii and a PS3, I can see this starting to happen already. While more and more exclusive 3rd-party games are announced for the Wii, PS3 exclusives are going multi-platform one by one. PS3 games often run worse than 360 games (Ridge Racer, THPS3) - although this may be because they're first-gen games for a console that is pretty hard to program - while Wii ports often do interesting things that no other version does (see Godfather).
If this trend continues, Sony's games will be the only reason to buy a PS3 by 2008. And if Nintendo can't sustain a console on its own (see Gamecube), Sony can't, either.
If the PS3 is to become the dominant console, it needs to make a comeback now, not in a year.
"Two Gamecubes duct-taped together"? I think you're still using last month's analogy. Haven't you seen the memo? The Wii's games lineup looks pretty good right about now. Bunch of new games you might want to check out: Super Paper Mario, Heatseeker, Godfather, SSX Blur.
I've Karma to burn so I'll chip in I found out my local toys r us actually had a PS3 and Wii sat next to each other and despite what everyone says everyone was hulked around the PS3 (mostly going £500! we can't afford that yet.)
Probably because they already own a Wii, so they play the one they don't own yet?
As for the Wii's graphics: Not sure what game you've played. There are some Wii games with really awful graphics, and there are some with nice graphics. The Wii is capable of easily outpacing the original Xbox, so it's certainly not "going back to PS1 level graphics."
Nintendo has a number of killer apps in development. The current lineup is not great, but it's not bad either, given the age of the console. Definitely better than the PS3 (where you still basically have Motorstorm and Resistance - personally, I'm not into FPS; I own Motorstorm, Ridge Racer and flOw, none of which are games you're going to play for more than a few weeks at most). The third party support is also good, and getting better. EA, interestingly, has released a bunch of awesome games - Godfather comes to mind.
Not sure about your classic controller remark. Are you just making things up? I don't think there's even one Wii game that supports the classic controller. As far as I can tell, it's strictly VC games (and maybe for Metal Slug, not sure).
Wait, I'm starting to see what you're doing here. You're not actually making a coherent argument. You're just making stuff up as you go. Damn. Sorry for replying. Look, the Wii is winning because it's fun, just like the iPod became the best selling MP3 player by being easy to use and offering a full solution that did not force the user to copy MP3 files using Windows, or scroll through his songs on a single list using arrow buttons. There's a well-sized list of awesome games for the Wii, some of them even from EA, and yes, there are Wii games with good graphics. The controllers are great. Sure, they cost more than PS3 controllers, all things considered, but they're easily worth it, and you still come out ahead by a huge margin, given the Wii's price.
Give the Wii a fair chance, and you'll end up liking it.
It doesn't need to sell as well as Madden. Like the GameCube, a game just needs to sell more than it costs to make
Actually, it's not quite that simple. That would lead to lost potential profit. If a dev team finishes a game and is about to start a new one, you obviously go with the one that has the most potential profit. If you could compete with Madden and make profit x, or you could instead create a GTA clone and make profit y, then you go with the GTA clone if y > x, even though you could have made money with the football game.
Not neccessarily disagreeing with you. Just saying that "it makes profit" alone isn't enough to get a game made. Committing a team to a game means that the team can't make another game that could make more money.
This may be somewhat OT, but I agree with the car racing AI. It's not only that they're simply rubberbanding, it's also that they're often driving exactly the same course each time. I like how some Burnout games have aggressive AI where the cars try to push you into oncoming traffic or smash you into walls, or push you out in corners. That feels very realistic, and much more like human racers.
I don't think he means the "if/then" part literally, as in "uses if and then in code." I think what he's trying to say is that AI in games thinks like that. "IF unarmed THEN look for weapon. IF you see gamer, THEN cover. IF nothing to do THEN walk around in pattern."
This is different from real AI, even though things like neuronal nets obviously also use if and then.
(Obligatory disclaimer: I own both a PS3 and a Wii)
Yes, there are Wii games that are "gimmicky" (in that they don't offer much depth, but rely on the novelty of the controller). Kororinpa would be one of these. But most games aren't gimmicky at all. Games like "Godfather: Blackhand Edition" show that the controller isn't a gimmick. It's a legitimate successor to the "old" gamepad. In fact, it ads so much to the game if used correctly that it can turn a mediocre game (such as the "traditional" version of Godfather) into an utterly awesome experience.
This sounds like hyperbole, but it's true. Play Godfather. This is the game that convinced me that the Wii is for real, and that it will win this generation.
As I've said somewhere else in this discussion, the PS3 has been relegated to the position of slideshow server for pictures taken during sessions of Wii gaming. The PS3 is a great console, but the games quite simply aren't there. Motorstorm is great entertainment for a week, and I don't really like FPS, so I'm fresh out of PS3 games. The Wii games, on the other hand, just keep on coming.
That argument is nonsensical. The fact that games don't use 100% of the PS3's capabilities does not mean that they still run after Sony removes caches or RAM. They won't remove anything connected to playing PS3 games.
really now, does ANYONE plan on using their PS3 as a photo album
It's really all I use the PS3 for at the moment. Quite often, friends come over to play Wii. I usually take pictures of them jumping and flailing around, and we then watch them using the PS3.
So your point is that you think that the Wii Attach Rate Statistics are outdated. Well, I linked to a google search on "wii attach rate," to which you replied with "Yes, Nintendo had a far better attach rate... in december 06... troll."
In this context, "attach rate" refers to the number of games sold for each console ("The game attach rate is defined as the average number of games purchased per game system, calculated by simply dividing the total number of games sold by the total number of consoles sold," as defined by arstechnica). Now, this number has an interesting property: It typically only ever goes up during the lifetime of a console. The reason is simple: The older a console is, the more owners you have who have owned the console for a longer time, and have thus had more time to buy games.
Or, in other words, you're very likely to own more games for your 5-years-old PS2 than for your brand-new PS3.
So, back to your argument: You're claiming that the attach rate from 4 months ago is useless. Now lets go back to what the original argument that sparked the discussion was:
It's a good thing they're not losing money on those consoles, cause they're certainly not making any on games. What's the only game 90% of the Wii owners are playing? Wii sports. And are they buying others? Nope, because the gimmick pretty much ends there.
The claim was that people who buy Wiis don't buy other games. But even the attach rate of a few months ago - which has only gone up since then - disproves that.
You still have not explained to me how what I wrote is wrong in any way. I have no idea why you keep ranting on and on about the PS3 or the Xbox or the Wii's success. This discussion has got nothing to do with success or failure, with the "console war," with crashes, with Oblivion, with game styles, with "Nintendo Fans," or with which console comes out on top. In fact, I actually own a PS3 and very much want it to succeed.
I only said that the original claim - that Wii buyers only play Wii Sports - is wrong.
In fact, I still don't quite understand what made you so angry, and why you keep ranting on and on about all those things, about which I have claimed nothing at all.
Frankly, I'm still not entirely sure what you're trying to tell me. You sound a bit like a anti-Nintendo fanboy, jumping at every chance he gets to rant about how bad Nintendo is.
Rule by the people does not guarantee rule for the people. You've hit the nail on the head by calling it dictatorship by the majority. I agree that this is a Bad Thing, but is it better or worse than a benevolent dictatorship by oligarchy (which is what you essentially have when say Congress overrides the majority will of the people for the common good).
Well, that seems like an awfully harsh way to put it:-)
In a constitutional state, there are rules governing what each branch of the government can do. The people are essentially part of a branch of the government (usually - and in this example - the legislative branch). Thus, they are limited in their power. That the Congress or a court can legally override a majority vote doesn't turn the government into an oligarchy. In the end, these officials were - directly or indirectly - elected by the people, and they're doing the job the people told them to do, even if that job includes limiting the people's power.
Unfortunately, there's no Japanese training for foreigners - I'd buy that in a second. There's only a bunch of Japanese Training apps for the Japanese, which are only marginally useful for foreigners.
There was no announcement from Microsoft. iSuppli announced something to that end, but they are bascially making stuff up (okay, they are taking gear apart, trying to figure out how much it cost to put it together, which is rather similar to just making stuff up).
True, though - compared to the original Xbox, the 360 is probably doing a lot better. I don't think the original Xboxes ever turned a profit, which is why Microsoft was so quick in killing it, and which is why Microsoft took a totally different approach with the 360.
Can we please drop the stupid 'they are in stock so that proves no one is buying them' concept?
We could, if it weren't true. It's still early after launch. The PS3 launched a few weeks ago in Europe. I bought mine a week after launch and had no trouble finding one - most electronics shops had them in stock (although the store I bought mine in had no Sixaxis, so I bought one of these crappy Logitech pads with a freaking hairdrier inside them).
It's not like Sony manufactured 6 millions of these. By all rights, they should be sold out.
And while we are on this topic, can we also please drop the 'I don't know anyone with a PS3 but I know for a fact that everyone on earth wants a Wii'
I don't think anyone said that, but if you mean to imply that the Wii doesn't have more mass market appeal than the PS3, you must have been sleeping for the last few months. Good morning, I hope you had a nice dream, because you're not going to like reality:-)
You seem to be pretty sure about Microsoft's profit margin. I don't think they ever announced anything in that regard, have they? Frankly, I doubt they're making money on console sales. If they did make money, they would probably lower the price, given how the sales numbers of the 360 aren't exactly spectacular.
Either way, as you say, Microsoft's console gaming division most certainly doesn't make money, all things considered. And not only due to their investment in games: They have a lot of investment to get back from developing the 360 itself, too. Not that it matters - Microsoft will gladly put billions into this whole idea just to destroy Sony.
I loved the first two Paper Mario games (in fact, I only bought the N64 version after I played the Cube version, and I got a N64 just so I could play it). I'm in Europe, so I haven't yet got Super Paper Mario, but I heard that - apart from the combat, which isn't turn-based anymore - the game still plays very similarly to the "old" Paper Marios. Hopefully it's true.
Slashdot Mirror
More hardware: Costs for every PC sold.
Harder software: Costs once to write it.
A failing console making a comeback after being almost two years on the market is something that - as far as I can remember - has never happened in this business, and I don't think it will ever happen. The reason is simple:
If a console starts to lose ground, developers start to abandon it. The console will see less exclusives, and the cross-platform games will be shoddier on that console. Hence, its appeal to consumers will decrease, which will make it fail even quicker, decreasing the chance of a comeback.
Owning both a Wii and a PS3, I can see this starting to happen already. While more and more exclusive 3rd-party games are announced for the Wii, PS3 exclusives are going multi-platform one by one. PS3 games often run worse than 360 games (Ridge Racer, THPS3) - although this may be because they're first-gen games for a console that is pretty hard to program - while Wii ports often do interesting things that no other version does (see Godfather).
If this trend continues, Sony's games will be the only reason to buy a PS3 by 2008. And if Nintendo can't sustain a console on its own (see Gamecube), Sony can't, either.
If the PS3 is to become the dominant console, it needs to make a comeback now, not in a year.
"Two Gamecubes duct-taped together"? I think you're still using last month's analogy. Haven't you seen the memo? The Wii's games lineup looks pretty good right about now. Bunch of new games you might want to check out: Super Paper Mario, Heatseeker, Godfather, SSX Blur.
Probably because they already own a Wii, so they play the one they don't own yet?
As for the Wii's graphics: Not sure what game you've played. There are some Wii games with really awful graphics, and there are some with nice graphics. The Wii is capable of easily outpacing the original Xbox, so it's certainly not "going back to PS1 level graphics."
Nintendo has a number of killer apps in development. The current lineup is not great, but it's not bad either, given the age of the console. Definitely better than the PS3 (where you still basically have Motorstorm and Resistance - personally, I'm not into FPS; I own Motorstorm, Ridge Racer and flOw, none of which are games you're going to play for more than a few weeks at most). The third party support is also good, and getting better. EA, interestingly, has released a bunch of awesome games - Godfather comes to mind.
Not sure about your classic controller remark. Are you just making things up? I don't think there's even one Wii game that supports the classic controller. As far as I can tell, it's strictly VC games (and maybe for Metal Slug, not sure).
Wait, I'm starting to see what you're doing here. You're not actually making a coherent argument. You're just making stuff up as you go. Damn. Sorry for replying. Look, the Wii is winning because it's fun, just like the iPod became the best selling MP3 player by being easy to use and offering a full solution that did not force the user to copy MP3 files using Windows, or scroll through his songs on a single list using arrow buttons. There's a well-sized list of awesome games for the Wii, some of them even from EA, and yes, there are Wii games with good graphics. The controllers are great. Sure, they cost more than PS3 controllers, all things considered, but they're easily worth it, and you still come out ahead by a huge margin, given the Wii's price.
Give the Wii a fair chance, and you'll end up liking it.
(Disclaimer: I own both)
Actually, it's not quite that simple. That would lead to lost potential profit. If a dev team finishes a game and is about to start a new one, you obviously go with the one that has the most potential profit. If you could compete with Madden and make profit x, or you could instead create a GTA clone and make profit y, then you go with the GTA clone if y > x, even though you could have made money with the football game.
Not neccessarily disagreeing with you. Just saying that "it makes profit" alone isn't enough to get a game made. Committing a team to a game means that the team can't make another game that could make more money.
This may be somewhat OT, but I agree with the car racing AI. It's not only that they're simply rubberbanding, it's also that they're often driving exactly the same course each time. I like how some Burnout games have aggressive AI where the cars try to push you into oncoming traffic or smash you into walls, or push you out in corners. That feels very realistic, and much more like human racers.
I don't think he means the "if/then" part literally, as in "uses if and then in code." I think what he's trying to say is that AI in games thinks like that. "IF unarmed THEN look for weapon. IF you see gamer, THEN cover. IF nothing to do THEN walk around in pattern."
This is different from real AI, even though things like neuronal nets obviously also use if and then.
It's a CF card. The Wii only reads SD cards.
I doubt they will do it, simply due to a) fear of piracy and b) fear of losing (part of) their revenue licensing games.
Who do you mean by "they"? Hackers? So then you have to play cat and mouse with Sony, just as you have to with the PSP?
(Obligatory disclaimer: I own both a PS3 and a Wii)
Yes, there are Wii games that are "gimmicky" (in that they don't offer much depth, but rely on the novelty of the controller). Kororinpa would be one of these. But most games aren't gimmicky at all. Games like "Godfather: Blackhand Edition" show that the controller isn't a gimmick. It's a legitimate successor to the "old" gamepad. In fact, it ads so much to the game if used correctly that it can turn a mediocre game (such as the "traditional" version of Godfather) into an utterly awesome experience.
This sounds like hyperbole, but it's true. Play Godfather. This is the game that convinced me that the Wii is for real, and that it will win this generation.
As I've said somewhere else in this discussion, the PS3 has been relegated to the position of slideshow server for pictures taken during sessions of Wii gaming. The PS3 is a great console, but the games quite simply aren't there. Motorstorm is great entertainment for a week, and I don't really like FPS, so I'm fresh out of PS3 games. The Wii games, on the other hand, just keep on coming.
And that would be because the 360 is starved for RAm as well :-)
That argument is nonsensical. The fact that games don't use 100% of the PS3's capabilities does not mean that they still run after Sony removes caches or RAM. They won't remove anything connected to playing PS3 games.
It's really all I use the PS3 for at the moment. Quite often, friends come over to play Wii. I usually take pictures of them jumping and flailing around, and we then watch them using the PS3.
So your point is that you think that the Wii Attach Rate Statistics are outdated. Well, I linked to a google search on "wii attach rate," to which you replied with "Yes, Nintendo had a far better attach rate... in december 06... troll."
In this context, "attach rate" refers to the number of games sold for each console ("The game attach rate is defined as the average number of games purchased per game system, calculated by simply dividing the total number of games sold by the total number of consoles sold," as defined by arstechnica). Now, this number has an interesting property: It typically only ever goes up during the lifetime of a console. The reason is simple: The older a console is, the more owners you have who have owned the console for a longer time, and have thus had more time to buy games.
Or, in other words, you're very likely to own more games for your 5-years-old PS2 than for your brand-new PS3.
So, back to your argument: You're claiming that the attach rate from 4 months ago is useless. Now lets go back to what the original argument that sparked the discussion was:
The claim was that people who buy Wiis don't buy other games. But even the attach rate of a few months ago - which has only gone up since then - disproves that.
You still have not explained to me how what I wrote is wrong in any way. I have no idea why you keep ranting on and on about the PS3 or the Xbox or the Wii's success. This discussion has got nothing to do with success or failure, with the "console war," with crashes, with Oblivion, with game styles, with "Nintendo Fans," or with which console comes out on top. In fact, I actually own a PS3 and very much want it to succeed.
I only said that the original claim - that Wii buyers only play Wii Sports - is wrong.
In fact, I still don't quite understand what made you so angry, and why you keep ranting on and on about all those things, about which I have claimed nothing at all.
Frankly, I'm still not entirely sure what you're trying to tell me. You sound a bit like a anti-Nintendo fanboy, jumping at every chance he gets to rant about how bad Nintendo is.
What's your point?
Well, that seems like an awfully harsh way to put it :-)
In a constitutional state, there are rules governing what each branch of the government can do. The people are essentially part of a branch of the government (usually - and in this example - the legislative branch). Thus, they are limited in their power. That the Congress or a court can legally override a majority vote doesn't turn the government into an oligarchy. In the end, these officials were - directly or indirectly - elected by the people, and they're doing the job the people told them to do, even if that job includes limiting the people's power.
Other than that, I agree with your post.
Unfortunately, there's no Japanese training for foreigners - I'd buy that in a second. There's only a bunch of Japanese Training apps for the Japanese, which are only marginally useful for foreigners.
There was no announcement from Microsoft. iSuppli announced something to that end, but they are bascially making stuff up (okay, they are taking gear apart, trying to figure out how much it cost to put it together, which is rather similar to just making stuff up).
True, though - compared to the original Xbox, the 360 is probably doing a lot better. I don't think the original Xboxes ever turned a profit, which is why Microsoft was so quick in killing it, and which is why Microsoft took a totally different approach with the 360.
Other than the games already mentioned, Wii Fitness and Wii Music are going to be heavy hitters.
It's very rare that I read something on /. which actually changes what I think. Truly insightful point, thanks!
We could, if it weren't true. It's still early after launch. The PS3 launched a few weeks ago in Europe. I bought mine a week after launch and had no trouble finding one - most electronics shops had them in stock (although the store I bought mine in had no Sixaxis, so I bought one of these crappy Logitech pads with a freaking hairdrier inside them).
It's not like Sony manufactured 6 millions of these. By all rights, they should be sold out.
And while we are on this topic, can we also please drop the 'I don't know anyone with a PS3 but I know for a fact that everyone on earth wants a Wii'I don't think anyone said that, but if you mean to imply that the Wii doesn't have more mass market appeal than the PS3, you must have been sleeping for the last few months. Good morning, I hope you had a nice dream, because you're not going to like reality :-)
You seem to be pretty sure about Microsoft's profit margin. I don't think they ever announced anything in that regard, have they? Frankly, I doubt they're making money on console sales. If they did make money, they would probably lower the price, given how the sales numbers of the 360 aren't exactly spectacular.
Either way, as you say, Microsoft's console gaming division most certainly doesn't make money, all things considered. And not only due to their investment in games: They have a lot of investment to get back from developing the 360 itself, too. Not that it matters - Microsoft will gladly put billions into this whole idea just to destroy Sony.
I loved the first two Paper Mario games (in fact, I only bought the N64 version after I played the Cube version, and I got a N64 just so I could play it). I'm in Europe, so I haven't yet got Super Paper Mario, but I heard that - apart from the combat, which isn't turn-based anymore - the game still plays very similarly to the "old" Paper Marios. Hopefully it's true.
Have you played Raving Rabbits on the PS2? Sorry, but Grandparent's point holds.