Second, there are potential issues with file corruption. According to the article, corruption has been an issue already when a user tweaked the ChangeSet file.
The story, if true, simply identifies a server bug that needed to be fixed anyway.
I think McVoy's approach was flawed, but I don't think he was trying to screw anyone.
Other than me? And all the other (large) group of kernel developers who would not use BitKeeper, because we knew that this, or something much like it, would happen?
it is clearly stated that he is uncomfortable with the situation simply because it is costing more money to support a free BK than the extra revenue such support is apparenty encouraging
Which is a little disingenuous considering that few people would have even heard of BitKeeper if Linus had not decided to use it for Linux. So how much of McVoy's revenue is really "extra", and how much of it would not exist at all if he had not managed to convince Linus to drink his koolaid?
Why not just write a free alternative if Tridge is so concerned about non-free tools?
This is being done of course. Tridge's BitKeeper export tool is to recover the revision data currently locked up in BitKeeper repositories, to move it into one of the new tools. Once we have all the revision data safely moved to non-proprietary repositories, you will thank Tridge... a lot.
"Isn't it a bit ironic though, that the poster-child open source project is taking a productivity hit from retooling due to lock-in to a proprietary product?"
What "lock-in" exactly? How would this be any different if a open-source project died and one needed to transfer files? I don't think moving the files is the problem-what to move them to is a greater one...
The only way to export the main bulk of a BitKeeper repository to CVS is by asking Larry McVoy to set up a BK to CVS gateway for you. Larry will run the (unreleased) CVS gateway code on a server he controls. So Larry better like you. That lets me out, for one. Even if Larry does condescend to set up a CVS BitKeeper gateway for you, you will not get _all_ the revision data. Some of the merge graph will be missing.
Besides that, there is the so-called open source BK client, which only exports a pathetically limited subset of the information locked up in a BitKeeper repository.
The folks who talk about the attempted proprietary lock-in are not just blowing smoke.
we're now encouraging users to submit suggestions for actual changes to our encyclopedia articles. We're very interested in hearing your opinions on how to create a thriving community of people that are passionate about building a great reference source
While we appreciate the enthusiasm, unforunately you are doomed because nobody wants to write an encylopedia for you for free and hand over all their rights to you, never mind having to buy it back later.
Encarta has already fallen far behind Wikipedia, and this have-baked attempt at glasnost falls far short of what it would take to rescue it. Sorry. Encarta is doomed.
Good thing too. The world's knowledge was created by the world's people and belongs to the world's people, not to some random corporation.
Congress has added an amendment to the Energy Bill to extend daylight-savings time by two months.
Daylight savings time is a stupid, usless, confusing, time wasting anachronism that outlived its usefulness many years ago. Don't tie ribbons on the pig, get rid of it.
I'm not familiar with BitKeeper. Can anyone comment on the possible ramifications of having all these large-scale commercial contributors using a tool that Linus & Co no longer use/have access to?
Sure. It doesn't matter, and we don't care.
This is a great day for Linux, and Linus for that matter. Oh, and me.
The question is where to go now? My preference would be GNU Arch, as it's more decentralized.
Hi Bruce,
You want to keep an eye on Monotone. Recently, it has gone through a redesign specifically aimed at making it changeset-oriented, with a view to replacing BitKeeper. It has a ways to go, but the project is active and the work is professional. Arch and Subversion are both worthy and usable systems right now, and many projects are already working happily with one or the other.
This whole showdown is a 'tempest in a teacup' or 'tussles in Brussels' and will die down to an endless Eurocratic paper shuffle that will never be fully resolved.
Sure, and the $650 million fine already levied was just a figment of your imagination.
Sure, they have a choice. They can take their ball and go home. "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept." Of course, it would never go that far. MS would threaten it, maybe stop selling Windows in Europe for a few weeks, then both sides would panic and split the difference.
Microsoft would panic and capitulate, you mean. If Gates was somehow insane enough to try or even threaten such a thing, Microsoft stock would fall by half the next day.
"I spend time and money making content and I pay the bills just fine without DRM."
Sad or not, good or bad, YOU do not represent the VAST majority of content producers
But HE understands the position of the VAST majority of content consumers, which is more important. Whichever content producers do not understand this are going to suffer pain. Much pain. Try this little experiment: think to yourself "who is king?"
If the thought popped into your head "the customer is king!" then you are well on the way to having a clue.
"You've got it backwards... they're the same thing functionally. Technically they're completely different."
Not quite the same technically either. Intel cloned EMT-64 from a non-final version of AMD64, with a result that a couple of the EMT-64 instructions are from the pre-Alpha AMD instruction set.
Without proper ACID compliance, everything else is decoration. The recent failure of one of the Wikipedia MySQL servers to start up again after a power failure proves beyond a reasonable doubt that MySQL is not ACID compliant.
(Was the corruption due to a disk lying about cache flush/disable? Easy, test the disk. If it doesn't lie, then MySQL was the culprit.)
These people make me sick. It's stories like this that make me realize why Microsoft is the object of so much hate. It's not because of their products, it's all about how they deal with competition.
But not just how Microsoft deals with competition, but with customers, programmers, partners, the legal system, third world countries, internet standards, I could go on. Microsoft is just a bad citizen. Never mind the poor quality of its products.
The one reason why all^Wmost of the kernel developers use BK is because they aren't stupid, BK is a great tool and can save hours of work
That is a lie. Most kernel developers do not use BitKeeper, because they do not agree with the license or Larry McVoy's pathetic control freakyness, and they hope Linus will soon come to his senses.
The one reason why people whine is because they want to have the advantages of BK, but without using a propietary tool.
If you are using the term "whine" in reference to kernel developers, then you are most probably a BitMover employee.
but if you skim LKML or any of the digests you'll see that Andrea et al *do* whine incessently about this - it's been raised, and re-raised, and re-raised again when the no-to-BK people don't get their way.
That is because the situation is not resolved.
I'd call that even less professional than anything you can level at Larry, and I can understand him getting sick of it and taking a cheap shot or two back.
It has nothing to do with professionalism, it has everything to do with Larry being a dyed in the wool asshole.
"I don't keep my beer in my neighbor's fridge, I don't keep my money in my accountant's saving account, and I don't keep my source code in closed-source revision control systems."
But you keep your beer in your own fridge, which you don't have the schematics for, so your analogy is somewhat lacking
He doesn't have the schematics for his beer either, so his position was actually totally consistent.
Slashdot Mirror
Second, there are potential issues with file corruption. According to the article, corruption has been an issue already when a user tweaked the ChangeSet file.
The story, if true, simply identifies a server bug that needed to be fixed anyway.
I think McVoy's approach was flawed, but I don't think he was trying to screw anyone.
Other than me? And all the other (large) group of kernel developers who would not use BitKeeper, because we knew that this, or something much like it, would happen?
it is clearly stated that he is uncomfortable with the situation simply because it is costing more money to support a free BK than the extra revenue such support is apparenty encouraging
Which is a little disingenuous considering that few people would have even heard of BitKeeper if Linus had not decided to use it for Linux. So how much of McVoy's revenue is really "extra", and how much of it would not exist at all if he had not managed to convince Linus to drink his koolaid?
Why not just write a free alternative if Tridge is so concerned about non-free tools?
This is being done of course. Tridge's BitKeeper export tool is to recover the revision data currently locked up in BitKeeper repositories, to move it into one of the new tools. Once we have all the revision data safely moved to non-proprietary repositories, you will thank Tridge... a lot.
"Isn't it a bit ironic though, that the poster-child open source project is taking a productivity hit from retooling due to lock-in to a proprietary product?"
What "lock-in" exactly? How would this be any different if a open-source project died and one needed to transfer files? I don't think moving the files is the problem-what to move them to is a greater one...
The only way to export the main bulk of a BitKeeper repository to CVS is by asking Larry McVoy to set up a BK to CVS gateway for you. Larry will run the (unreleased) CVS gateway code on a server he controls. So Larry better like you. That lets me out, for one. Even if Larry does condescend to set up a CVS BitKeeper gateway for you, you will not get _all_ the revision data. Some of the merge graph will be missing.
Besides that, there is the so-called open source BK client, which only exports a pathetically limited subset of the information locked up in a BitKeeper repository.
The folks who talk about the attempted proprietary lock-in are not just blowing smoke.
Or is this Linus making a not-so-subtle pot-shot at Larry McVoy? You are way off the mark and you have failed miserably as a Linus watcher. Linus obviously aims the "git" allusion at himself.
we're now encouraging users to submit suggestions for actual changes to our encyclopedia articles. We're very interested in hearing your opinions on how to create a thriving community of people that are passionate about building a great reference source
While we appreciate the enthusiasm, unforunately you are doomed because nobody wants to write an encylopedia for you for free and hand over all their rights to you, never mind having to buy it back later.
Encarta has already fallen far behind Wikipedia, and this have-baked attempt at glasnost falls far short of what it would take to rescue it. Sorry. Encarta is doomed.
Good thing too. The world's knowledge was created by the world's people and belongs to the world's people, not to some random corporation.
Congress has added an amendment to the Energy Bill to extend daylight-savings time by two months.
Daylight savings time is a stupid, usless, confusing, time wasting anachronism that outlived its usefulness many years ago. Don't tie ribbons on the pig, get rid of it.
Congress has added an amendment to the Energy Bill to extend daylight-savings time by two months.
Except he's right.
Except that he's wrong. Linux has not failed, and it will do even better with Larry McVoy gone.
I'm not familiar with BitKeeper. Can anyone comment on the possible ramifications of having all these large-scale commercial contributors using a tool that Linus & Co no longer use/have access to?
Sure. It doesn't matter, and we don't care.
This is a great day for Linux, and Linus for that matter. Oh, and me.
linus didn't consider the nature of what he was using and got burned.
Well, let me point out Andrew Morton is the guy who does most of the heavy lifting on the kernel these days, and he uses his own scripts.
The question is where to go now? My preference would be GNU Arch, as it's more decentralized.
Hi Bruce,
You want to keep an eye on Monotone. Recently, it has gone through a redesign specifically aimed at making it changeset-oriented, with a view to replacing BitKeeper. It has a ways to go, but the project is active and the work is professional. Arch and Subversion are both worthy and usable systems right now, and many projects are already working happily with one or the other.
Regards,
Daniel
"I have to say that the open source community couldn't have failed more than they have" -- Larry McVoy
Thanks for that Larry, and good riddance.
This whole showdown is a 'tempest in a teacup' or 'tussles in Brussels' and will die down to an endless Eurocratic paper shuffle that will never be fully resolved.
Sure, and the $650 million fine already levied was just a figment of your imagination.
Sure, they have a choice. They can take their ball and go home. "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept." Of course, it would never go that far. MS would threaten it, maybe stop selling Windows in Europe for a few weeks, then both sides would panic and split the difference.
Microsoft would panic and capitulate, you mean. If Gates was somehow insane enough to try or even threaten such a thing, Microsoft stock would fall by half the next day.
It didn't seem to me like any single company had the stomach to keep after the scum that are ruining the Net for the rest of us.
I thought it was Microsoft that is ruining the net for the rest of is. Isn't it Microsoft that created the spam industry?
"I spend time and money making content and I pay the bills just fine without DRM."
Sad or not, good or bad, YOU do not represent the VAST majority of content producers
But HE understands the position of the VAST majority of content consumers, which is more important. Whichever content producers do not understand this are going to suffer pain. Much pain. Try this little experiment: think to yourself "who is king?"
If the thought popped into your head "the customer is king!" then you are well on the way to having a clue.
"You've got it backwards... they're the same thing functionally. Technically they're completely different."
Not quite the same technically either. Intel cloned EMT-64 from a non-final version of AMD64, with a result that a couple of the EMT-64 instructions are from the pre-Alpha AMD instruction set.
Without proper ACID compliance, everything else is decoration. The recent failure of one of the Wikipedia MySQL servers to start up again after a power failure proves beyond a reasonable doubt that MySQL is not ACID compliant.
(Was the corruption due to a disk lying about cache flush/disable? Easy, test the disk. If it doesn't lie, then MySQL was the culprit.)
These people make me sick. It's stories like this that make me realize why Microsoft is the object of so much hate. It's not because of their products, it's all about how they deal with competition.
But not just how Microsoft deals with competition, but with customers, programmers, partners, the legal system, third world countries, internet standards, I could go on. Microsoft is just a bad citizen. Never mind the poor quality of its products.
Right, and also what other costs might you save?
daily malware cleaning
lower hardware cost
license auditing costs
downtime costs
Not to mention, having access to thousands of free applications, many that are best of breed.
The one reason why all^Wmost of the kernel developers use BK is because they aren't stupid, BK is a great tool and can save hours of work
That is a lie. Most kernel developers do not use BitKeeper, because they do not agree with the license or Larry McVoy's pathetic control freakyness, and they hope Linus will soon come to his senses.
The one reason why people whine is because they want to have the advantages of BK, but without using a propietary tool.
If you are using the term "whine" in reference to kernel developers, then you are most probably a BitMover employee.
but if you skim LKML or any of the digests you'll see that Andrea et al *do* whine incessently about this - it's been raised, and re-raised, and re-raised again when the no-to-BK people don't get their way.
That is because the situation is not resolved.
I'd call that even less professional than anything you can level at Larry, and I can understand him getting sick of it and taking a cheap shot or two back.
It has nothing to do with professionalism, it has everything to do with Larry being a dyed in the wool asshole.
"I don't keep my beer in my neighbor's fridge, I don't keep my money in my accountant's saving account, and I don't keep my source code in closed-source revision control systems."
But you keep your beer in your own fridge, which you don't have the schematics for, so your analogy is somewhat lacking
He doesn't have the schematics for his beer either, so his position was actually totally consistent.