Yeah, the guy pissed off a soldier in what is basically a war zone and got beat up. After that, the soldiers said that he was interfering with their duties so he was deported.
If your friend likes getting beat up by people who don't want to be videotaped, he doesn't have to travel that far - he can just go a little to the south and try to pull that shit on American cops* he would be thrown in jail for "assaulting a police officer" as well.
I mean, of course the soldiers who did that should be punished, but this is police brutality, not a crime against humanity.
I'm not going to explain to you why beating up a protester is not comparable to killing millions of people - you're obviously not going to understand. On the one hand, I really envy you for living a life where this kind of thing seems as atrocious and foreign as the Holocaust, but then again, I kinda pity you for not having a clue about the rest of the world.
* And, I guess, just about every other cop as well - it's just that the Americans were caught doing that
There are similarities between Catholic nuns and the SS - they both wear black. So what? If you try hard enough, you can connect anything with everything.
Even if there are situations outside of Israel that more closely resemble Nazism
You mean, "resemble Nazism much more closely and yet, unlike Israel, never compared to the Nazis".
There is almost universal support for Israel here among our politicians.
First of all, what made you think I was talking about Canadian politicians (of all people)?! I was obviously focusing on Internet forum posters. But, if you already mentioned it, the Israel=Nazis theme is not confined to the Internet - it's a pretty common theme in anti-Israeli protests as well. And of course, you have the Muslim world, where this analogy (as well as holocaust denial, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and other, more obvious expressions of classical antisemitism) is pretty mainstream.
I never claimed they hide anything. Your media spends a considerable amount of time on your various conflicts with your neighbours that the rest of the world mainly receives a brief summary of [...] If you are claiming that you aren't exposed to any propaganda at all, then we must be dealing with a different interpretation of what propaganda is.
Or maybe, that you don't have a clue what "propaganda" means. As someone who's familiar with actual propaganda (my parents come from the Soviet Union, and I have all kinds of Soviet books at my house), trust me, it's not the subtle bias that you seem to think it is. But then again, I wouldn't expect someone who can't see the huge difference between Israel and the Nazis to see the difference.
And by the way, there is nothing wrong or even resembling "propaganda" in giving local news more importance than foreign news. People care a lot more about stuff that might happen to them or to the people they know than about stuff that happens to foreign people. You're not scoring freedom points by treating all of the world news equally (unless, of course, you're supposed to be an international news service). You're just not giving the people the information they need.
Well you're emotionally attached to the situation, and unable to see things objectively
The Nazi analogy is only used because it's emotionally charged. It makes no sense objectively.
The point of calling you a nazi is to shame you, if it upsets you that much then its obviously working.
It doesn't shame me, it offends me. Claiming that I kill Christian babies to make Matzot from their blood would have the same effect. Do you think that would be a legitimate claim as well?
Nope. Every country has a certain amount of propaganda. In yours, you are told over and over how you are being victimized, and you believe it. (etc etc)
First of all, you know absolutely nothing about Israeli media, so I don't see how you can make cute theories about it. And second, I was talking about how you implied that the Israel media hides Chinese crimes and focuses on Israeli wrongdoings, which was just odd.
I believe this is because Jews were persecuted by Nazis, then became Nazis.
And I claim that this is a juvenile and offensive idea, that has very little relation to the truth, and it only taints Israel/Palestine debates and trivializes Nazi atrocities.
What's even more annoying, is people like you, who get angry when Jews object to being compared to the people who killed their parents' families.
No, no, no. Vilifying Israel?
Good, then we agree that you were on crack while you wrote that comment about "my government's propaganda".
We are Nazis, but Americans are bigger Nazis
No. As I previously said:
You do realize that unless you come from Scandinavia or something, it's very likely that your own country committed its share of atrocities as well, right? I only brought up the US because I'm most familiar with its politics. Hiding behind "well, the US is the devil too" ain't going to work.
(to be honest, the Scandinavians aren't angels either, but hell, I like Scandinavians)
You mean only before/during the Olympics. And of course, nobody's comparing them to the Nazis even now.
If your seeing something different, it's probably due to your location and your government's propaganda.
You do understand what you're implying, right? Somehow I doubt that the Israelis are so keen on vilifying Israel, that they completely forget about China. I wonder how that made sense in your head.
Liar? I said they would never get away with the things Israel does. (re: border expansion) I never said they were saints.
First of all, you're trying to mask an outright lie (that you never claimed that the US was any better than Israel) with a complete bullshit statement (that the US would never get away with the things Israel does), and you know, that does work to a certain extent. I really don't know where to start.
But, the US would never get away with "border expansion"? Are you high or something? You're sure that you didn't miss little stuff like the Mexican war (of course you did, you seemed not to know anything about it) or the fact that the US is currently occupying not one, but two different countries just because it can?
Israel wouldn't even exist if they didn't pay your bills.
Israel managed to exist just fine without US support for ~20 years, and against overwhelming odds. In fact, the massive aid only started as a result of the 1973 war - the US basically started paying Israel and Egypt so they won't nuke each other.
It is when Israel kills thousands of people itself
As I've mentioned before, more people died as a result of the latest Iraq war than in the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And it's only one war out of many. And unlike Israel, that's only trying to defend itself from people who wish to destroy it (HAMAS, Hizballah), the US did it more or less for no reason.
and the blind support of Israel is the number one catalyst to both of those wars
Bullshit. Why don't you blame the current violence in Georgia on Israel as well, while you're at it?
You do see many many many people condemning the actions of China. Far more often than is said about Israel.
You must be kidding me.
Kicking people out of their homes is not defense. Destroying Lebanon is not defense.
Kicking out people who started a war against you, and who are still seeking to destroy your country, is defense (as was the case in the independence war). Responding to aggressive behavior (kidnapping soldiers, shooting missiles at civilians) by an organization that seeks to destroy Israel is the very definition of "defense".
You were trying to prove that the US is somehow better than Israel.
I was? You are mistaken.
Liar:
Nobody is forced to serve in the military there, they do not fire rockets, or bomb Mexico or Canada that I know of. They don't kick people out of their houses and make settlements in Mexico and claim it as their land by virtue of their religion and culture.
But that was like two comments ago... there's no way I'm going to notice, right?
Anyway...
I do not care which one of you war pigs is worse.
War pigs, heh? You do realize that unless you come from Scandinavia or something, it's very likely that your own country committed its share of atrocities as well, right? I only brought up the US because I'm most familiar with its politics. Hiding behind "well, the US is the devil too" ain't going to work.
They support you, so they are at least as bad as you are.
Right, killing tens of thousands of people is nothing compared to the horrible crime of supporting Israel. This really says a lot about your sense of morality.
Of course, because China, Sudan and North Korea would be more likely to do the kinds of things that Israel does. I'm not so sure about Russia.
Of course, both China and North Korea are so much worse than Israel, it's silly to compare them to Israel (it's very logical to compare them to the Nazis, though. and yet, when you mention China, you don't automatically get an idiot shouting "Nazis" - strange, huh?). Even comparing Israel to the US is far-fetched.
As for Russia, look no further than Chechnya - much worse than anything Israel has ever done, and completely overlooked by the world. I won't even mention the Soviet-era hijinks, or Putin's anti-democratic internal policy.
I'm not sure the military in the countries you mentioned engage in the activities that yours does. I don't think they would get away with it either.
You mean defending their country from people who vowed to destroy it? You're right.
Well if you're going back in history the whole continent was stolen really.
Yup, you're completely right (and it wasn't the only continent stolen by the Europeans either). And yet none of the American countries is maligned like Israel, imagine that.
This is supposed to excuse what Israel does today? They did it, so we should be able to as well?
You were trying to prove that the US is somehow better than Israel. And I proved that you're completely wrong.
It's good to put things in perspective. After all, that's the main thing you lack. When you put things in perspective, you understand that just about any Western country (and let's be honest, many Eastern and African ones as well) could be compared to the Nazis, and it would usually be a more accurate analogy. And when you see that, you start wondering why Israel, of all countries, is the one that's constantly compared to the Nazis.
So the US doesn't have conscription, unlike, say, Germany, Switzerland or Finland. They have enough money for a professional army (made of the poorest members of its society). So what?
they do not fire rockets, or bomb Mexico or Canada that I know of.
No, they just bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan - faraway countries that pose no threat to them. And that's only in the past couple of years.
They don't kick people out of their houses and make settlements in Mexico and claim it as their land by virtue of their religion and culture.
First of all, the US did take a lot of land from Mexico, so your example sucks.
But the main problem is that you're forgetting how US itself was formed. Indeed, it was by kicking people off their land, while periodically massacring them. And no, they didn't have any cultural, or even religious justification for that - it was pure greed.
Not anymore anyway.
So all Israel has to do is wait for a century or so, and everything will be forgotten and forgiven. Cool.
(note: I don't think that would actually work in Israel's case).
Don't you realize that if the Israeli's didn't act like Nazi's this wouldn't be an issue?
The point is, Israel doesn't act like the Nazis in any meaningful sense.
It's their behaviour that makes people say that.
No. Other countries behave much worse than Israel: China, Russia, the US, not to mention such regimes as Sudan or North Korea. And yet, Israel is the only one who is constantly compared to the Nazis.
You make good points, but we are just taking on two fundamental viewpoints that don't necessarily contradict each other but interpret the situation differently.
No idea what you mean, but whatever.
Regardless of our differences, we should focus our energies on something productive like figuring out a way to eliminate hostilities between these people and search for a solution--possibly a nice compromise?
You're the one who keeps dragging this thing back to Hitler. It's a great tactic to avoid explaining the actions of Israel, to divert the subject where you are being attacked by some some Jew hater.
Are you serious?! You do realize that my only point was that the Israel=Nazi meme is cheap demagoguery? You're trying to divert it to some boring "settlements=baaad" debate, and you're crying because I won't play your game?
Anyway, I'm glad that we finally agree on one point: comparing Israel with the Nazis hurts serious debate by turning it into an emotionally charged troll fest ("a great tactic" indeed...)
That's not happening here as much as you try to pretend it is.
First of all, I was mostly talking about how you're defending this obnoxious practice, and not about how pervasive it is over here. And second... did you read the discussion on this page?! The thread about how Israel/Jews is just like the Nazis is huge, with all kinds of cute jokes about crescent-shaped patches for Muslims, and people like you, crawling out from their holes, crying about how the mean Jews won't let those people compare them to the Nazis.
But even if we ignore this article, I can tell you that every single English-language Internet forum I've been to* suffers from this problem. The moment somebody brings up Israel, you'll find a fucktard crying "Nazis!" in the first 20 comments. It's like Godwin's Law on steroids.
No it's just incorrect. To say someone hates something when they don't is wrong.
Antisemites often claim that they "don't hate Jews" either. They just have a long list of claims, some more outrageous than others, against the Jewish people. You've already repeated one of the more famous claims - that the Jewish belief of "the chosen people" is like the Nazi Uber/Untermensch. What's even more problematic, is that you've defended someone who compared Jews to the Nazis.
Does this make you a full-fledged antisemite? I don't think so. But it does make you much closer to one than Israel is to the Nazis.
It isn't wrong to say that Israel took what isn't theirs, forced people off their land & homes, and continues to do so.
That could be said about China, Russia, the US, and just about any Western European country as well. The Nazis aren't famous for occupation and colonization - they're famous for killing millions of innocent people, simply because they didn't like their race. You might as well say that Catholic priests are SS officers because they wear black*.
* And no, I don't want to start a stupid debate about the wrongdoings of the Catholic Church
Well yes, it is really simple, and you can just obfuscate the issue by playing semantic games like "technically there was no such country as Palestine" and "technically this land belonged to Egypt and Jordan" and "Palestine is just a concept."
No, not just "technically". There never was an independent country called "Palestine". What's more important, before 1948 there was no distinct "Palestinian people" either. If the 1948 attack on Israel succeeded, there wouldn't be a "Palestinian people" now either. There would be only "Western Jordanians".
Btw, nobody actually argues about this point. Not the Arabs, not the Palestinians themselves, and certainly not the Israelis. This is really basic stuff, you know?
My ancestors are Polish, and for quite some time there was supposedly "no such country" as Poland
But at some point there was a Polish country, and, more importantly, a Polish people, who spoke the Polish language, and had unique customs and traditions. This cannot be said about Palestinians, who simply belonged to the larger Arab ethnicity before the 1948 war.
The point is that Israel is occupying Palestinian territory.
Uhm, you do realize that according to the Arabs (and Iranians), Israel is Palestinian territory, right? Dividing the land between Israel and a yet-to-be-formed Palestinian state is a compromise. Note how the little map in the HAMAS's logo includes both Israel and PA territory.
All of the hostilities didn't just magically come out of nowhere. It's not about "Israels neighbors hate Israel just because they're not Arab" or something ridiculous like that.
Really, then what was the deal with the 1948 war? You know, the one when several Arab countries (all of Israel's neighbors+Iraq) tried to eradicate Israel and annex the territory to Jordan? How about the hostilities before 1948?
Anyway, as I said in my previous post, go read a book about Israel/Palestine. Hell, you can read the Wikipedia article and know a lot more about the conflict than you do now. Arguing with someone who knows so little about the subject is very annoying.
So, you do think that the theoretical person who flipped you off on the highway to be in any way comparable to the Nazis? I mean, he's an asshole who doesn't mind hurting people with his rude gestures, the Nazis were assholes who didn't mind hurting people with their gas chambers and submachine guns, it's just a difference of "level", right?
Well, guess what, you can't lose all perspective and then still rationally compare anything. Otherwise, everything is kinda like everything else, and the act of comparing anything is meaningless.
That especially true for the Nazis, who are not known for "killing people", but for killing millions of people. According to your theory, you could just take any murder and say that it's "like the Holocaust". But of course, if you say it, you will look like a moron.
In any case, if you want a non-quantitative difference, notice that I said "The Nazis killed millions of people simply because they believed that they were of an inferior race", while Israel killed people "while fighting against people who were trying to destroy it". That's an incredibly important difference, and if you ignore it, you might as well not make the analogy at all.
Israel is occupying territory that officially belongs to Palestine (at least according to the United Nations)
You seem to think that there is, or ever was, a country called "Palestine". That just shows how little you know about the subject.
Israel took the West Bank from Jordan, and the Gaza strip from Egypt. Shortly after the war, both countries relinquished their claims to the land. At no point did it "officially" belonged to "Palestine" (unless you mean the pre-1948 British colony by the same name).
Now, there is a concept called "Palestine", but it means something much more complicated and nuanced than you seem to think.
Israel has invaded Palestine, and that is why other nations tried to intervene.
Now you're just making shit up. Did you think I wouldn't notice or something?
Well, guess what, the six-day war (the one you're probably referring to), was not about Israel invading Palestine, if only because there was no such country. It has to do with the Suez canal, and with Israel's neighbors' objection to Israel's existence.
You know what, I won't even try to understand what you meant by "systematically destroying what's left of Palestine". It's just too obvious that you don't know shit about Israel/Palestine.
I really don't see how you have the nerve to argue about something you know so little about, and while using condescending little quips like "it's very simple". Did you think your self-confidence could hide your basic ignorance?
I'm sorry if that sounded a little harsh, but the topic is pretty important to me, and I find your attitude to be, frankly, insulting.
"Proper discussion", eh? So, I guess you think "antisemite" is way too harsh, and is too emotionally loaded to be a legitimate claim against you?
Guess what, the differences between you and "actual" antisemites is much smaller than between Israel and the Nazis, and the term "antisemite" is much less loaded than "Nazi".
Here we go with the God promised us this land stuff. I find this part entertaining.
No. There's lots of archeological evidence and external sources (that is, Roman, Babylonian etc.) that prove that the Jews lived in what we now call "Israel". To claim that religion is the only reason Jews think Israel is their ancestral homeland is to show your deep ignorance.
But even if we ignore that part - who do you think gets to decide where the Jewish ancestral homeland is, other than the Jews? And it's not as if the Jews claim the whole world to be their birthright. They only want a tiny piece of desert, without any oil or other precious natural resources, where they could exercise their natural right of self-determination.
Defending itself by expanding its borders and building settlements? Come on now.
No, by fighting people who want to destroy it. Or are you claiming that Israel has no real enemies?
Also, "expanding its borders"? Are you serious? You mean the land taken in 1967? Even if we ignore the fact that it was taken from countries that were trying to destroy it at the time, and the fact that both Egypt and Jordan relinquished their claims to that land, you do realize that it's a tiny piece of land? The way you make it sound like some imperialist campaign is preposterous.
Uh, no. You have a real misunderstanding of cause and effect
No, you didn't understand what I meant. When you're comparing Israelis and Nazis, you're not only demonizing Israel, but also trivializing the Nazi atrocities. The only way you can seriously claim that the two are comparable, you either have to claim that Israelis systematically killed millions of people because of their ethnicity (and then you'd have to provide some sort of proof for that crazy claim), or, more likely, you claim that the Nazis weren't that bad - and that's "hardcore holocaust denial".
It is not a one-dimensional comparison. Just because the level is not the same, does not mean there are not similarities in kind.
No, it's a ludicrous comparison. You might as well say that the person who flipped you off on the highway was like the Nazis. The Nazis killed millions of people simply because they believed that they were of an inferior race. Israel killed.. how many? Thousands? Tens of thousands, since 1948? And that was while fighting against people who were trying to destroy it.
There are lots of more appropriate analogies - China, Russia, even the US, who killed more people in the current war than Israel killed since its inception. Actually, even compared to much smaller regional conflicts, the Israeli/Palestinian is civilized (you don't see people raping girls and then shooting them in the head, like, say, in Iraq), bloodless conflict.
And yet, the moment you say "Israel" you heard people shouting "Nazis!".
As an objective analogy, it's bullshit. As an incredibly offensive statement... well, it works. But it's strange that people see that meme as anything but a lame troll.
I mean, you're completely wrong - Israel is not just a colony like the US or Australia, it's the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, and the only country they have (unlike colonists, by the very definition of the word). But that's not the point.
I was talking about the victims of colonization. You know, countries that were, at some point, European colonies?
Slashdot Mirror
Yeah, the guy pissed off a soldier in what is basically a war zone and got beat up. After that, the soldiers said that he was interfering with their duties so he was deported.
If your friend likes getting beat up by people who don't want to be videotaped, he doesn't have to travel that far - he can just go a little to the south and try to pull that shit on American cops* he would be thrown in jail for "assaulting a police officer" as well.
I mean, of course the soldiers who did that should be punished, but this is police brutality, not a crime against humanity.
I'm not going to explain to you why beating up a protester is not comparable to killing millions of people - you're obviously not going to understand. On the one hand, I really envy you for living a life where this kind of thing seems as atrocious and foreign as the Holocaust, but then again, I kinda pity you for not having a clue about the rest of the world.
* And, I guess, just about every other cop as well - it's just that the Americans were caught doing that
2. If that's the most appalling thing you can think of, then you're living a very sheltered life.
Again, there are similarities
There are similarities between Catholic nuns and the SS - they both wear black. So what? If you try hard enough, you can connect anything with everything.
Even if there are situations outside of Israel that more closely resemble Nazism
You mean, "resemble Nazism much more closely and yet, unlike Israel, never compared to the Nazis".
There is almost universal support for Israel here among our politicians.
First of all, what made you think I was talking about Canadian politicians (of all people)?! I was obviously focusing on Internet forum posters. But, if you already mentioned it, the Israel=Nazis theme is not confined to the Internet - it's a pretty common theme in anti-Israeli protests as well. And of course, you have the Muslim world, where this analogy (as well as holocaust denial, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and other, more obvious expressions of classical antisemitism) is pretty mainstream.
I never claimed they hide anything. Your media spends a considerable amount of time on your various conflicts with your neighbours that the rest of the world mainly receives a brief summary of [...] If you are claiming that you aren't exposed to any propaganda at all, then we must be dealing with a different interpretation of what propaganda is.
Or maybe, that you don't have a clue what "propaganda" means. As someone who's familiar with actual propaganda (my parents come from the Soviet Union, and I have all kinds of Soviet books at my house), trust me, it's not the subtle bias that you seem to think it is. But then again, I wouldn't expect someone who can't see the huge difference between Israel and the Nazis to see the difference.
And by the way, there is nothing wrong or even resembling "propaganda" in giving local news more importance than foreign news. People care a lot more about stuff that might happen to them or to the people they know than about stuff that happens to foreign people. You're not scoring freedom points by treating all of the world news equally (unless, of course, you're supposed to be an international news service). You're just not giving the people the information they need.
Well you're emotionally attached to the situation, and unable to see things objectively
The Nazi analogy is only used because it's emotionally charged. It makes no sense objectively.
The point of calling you a nazi is to shame you, if it upsets you that much then its obviously working.
It doesn't shame me, it offends me. Claiming that I kill Christian babies to make Matzot from their blood would have the same effect. Do you think that would be a legitimate claim as well?
Nope. Every country has a certain amount of propaganda. In yours, you are told over and over how you are being victimized, and you believe it. (etc etc)
First of all, you know absolutely nothing about Israeli media, so I don't see how you can make cute theories about it. And second, I was talking about how you implied that the Israel media hides Chinese crimes and focuses on Israeli wrongdoings, which was just odd.
I believe this is because Jews were persecuted by Nazis, then became Nazis.
And I claim that this is a juvenile and offensive idea, that has very little relation to the truth, and it only taints Israel/Palestine debates and trivializes Nazi atrocities.
What's even more annoying, is people like you, who get angry when Jews object to being compared to the people who killed their parents' families.
No, no, no. Vilifying Israel?
Good, then we agree that you were on crack while you wrote that comment about "my government's propaganda".
We are Nazis, but Americans are bigger Nazis
No. As I previously said:
You do realize that unless you come from Scandinavia or something, it's very likely that your own country committed its share of atrocities as well, right? I only brought up the US because I'm most familiar with its politics. Hiding behind "well, the US is the devil too" ain't going to work.
(to be honest, the Scandinavians aren't angels either, but hell, I like Scandinavians)
but especially before/during the Olympics
You mean only before/during the Olympics. And of course, nobody's comparing them to the Nazis even now.
If your seeing something different, it's probably due to your location and your government's propaganda.
You do understand what you're implying, right? Somehow I doubt that the Israelis are so keen on vilifying Israel, that they completely forget about China. I wonder how that made sense in your head.
Liar? I said they would never get away with the things Israel does. (re: border expansion) I never said they were saints.
First of all, you're trying to mask an outright lie (that you never claimed that the US was any better than Israel) with a complete bullshit statement (that the US would never get away with the things Israel does), and you know, that does work to a certain extent. I really don't know where to start.
But, the US would never get away with "border expansion"? Are you high or something? You're sure that you didn't miss little stuff like the Mexican war (of course you did, you seemed not to know anything about it) or the fact that the US is currently occupying not one, but two different countries just because it can?
Israel wouldn't even exist if they didn't pay your bills.
Israel managed to exist just fine without US support for ~20 years, and against overwhelming odds. In fact, the massive aid only started as a result of the 1973 war - the US basically started paying Israel and Egypt so they won't nuke each other.
It is when Israel kills thousands of people itself
As I've mentioned before, more people died as a result of the latest Iraq war than in the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And it's only one war out of many. And unlike Israel, that's only trying to defend itself from people who wish to destroy it (HAMAS, Hizballah), the US did it more or less for no reason.
and the blind support of Israel is the number one catalyst to both of those wars
Bullshit. Why don't you blame the current violence in Georgia on Israel as well, while you're at it?
You do see many many many people condemning the actions of China. Far more often than is said about Israel.
You must be kidding me.
Kicking people out of their homes is not defense. Destroying Lebanon is not defense.
Kicking out people who started a war against you, and who are still seeking to destroy your country, is defense (as was the case in the independence war). Responding to aggressive behavior (kidnapping soldiers, shooting missiles at civilians) by an organization that seeks to destroy Israel is the very definition of "defense".
You were trying to prove that the US is somehow better than Israel.
I was? You are mistaken.
Liar:
Nobody is forced to serve in the military there, they do not fire rockets, or bomb Mexico or Canada that I know of. They don't kick people out of their houses and make settlements in Mexico and claim it as their land by virtue of their religion and culture.
But that was like two comments ago... there's no way I'm going to notice, right?
Anyway...
I do not care which one of you war pigs is worse.
War pigs, heh? You do realize that unless you come from Scandinavia or something, it's very likely that your own country committed its share of atrocities as well, right? I only brought up the US because I'm most familiar with its politics. Hiding behind "well, the US is the devil too" ain't going to work.
They support you, so they are at least as bad as you are.
Right, killing tens of thousands of people is nothing compared to the horrible crime of supporting Israel. This really says a lot about your sense of morality.
Of course, because China, Sudan and North Korea would be more likely to do the kinds of things that Israel does. I'm not so sure about Russia.
Of course, both China and North Korea are so much worse than Israel, it's silly to compare them to Israel (it's very logical to compare them to the Nazis, though. and yet, when you mention China, you don't automatically get an idiot shouting "Nazis" - strange, huh?). Even comparing Israel to the US is far-fetched.
As for Russia, look no further than Chechnya - much worse than anything Israel has ever done, and completely overlooked by the world. I won't even mention the Soviet-era hijinks, or Putin's anti-democratic internal policy.
I'm not sure the military in the countries you mentioned engage in the activities that yours does. I don't think they would get away with it either.
You mean defending their country from people who vowed to destroy it? You're right.
Well if you're going back in history the whole continent was stolen really.
Yup, you're completely right (and it wasn't the only continent stolen by the Europeans either). And yet none of the American countries is maligned like Israel, imagine that.
This is supposed to excuse what Israel does today? They did it, so we should be able to as well?
You were trying to prove that the US is somehow better than Israel. And I proved that you're completely wrong.
It's good to put things in perspective. After all, that's the main thing you lack. When you put things in perspective, you understand that just about any Western country (and let's be honest, many Eastern and African ones as well) could be compared to the Nazis, and it would usually be a more accurate analogy. And when you see that, you start wondering why Israel, of all countries, is the one that's constantly compared to the Nazis.
I'm no fan of the U.S. government either
Funny how you ignored all of my other examples
Nobody is forced to serve in the military there
So the US doesn't have conscription, unlike, say, Germany, Switzerland or Finland. They have enough money for a professional army (made of the poorest members of its society). So what?
they do not fire rockets, or bomb Mexico or Canada that I know of.
No, they just bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan - faraway countries that pose no threat to them. And that's only in the past couple of years.
They don't kick people out of their houses and make settlements in Mexico and claim it as their land by virtue of their religion and culture.
First of all, the US did take a lot of land from Mexico, so your example sucks.
But the main problem is that you're forgetting how US itself was formed. Indeed, it was by kicking people off their land, while periodically massacring them. And no, they didn't have any cultural, or even religious justification for that - it was pure greed.
Not anymore anyway.
So all Israel has to do is wait for a century or so, and everything will be forgotten and forgiven. Cool.
(note: I don't think that would actually work in Israel's case).
Don't you realize that if the Israeli's didn't act like Nazi's this wouldn't be an issue?
The point is, Israel doesn't act like the Nazis in any meaningful sense.
It's their behaviour that makes people say that.
No. Other countries behave much worse than Israel: China, Russia, the US, not to mention such regimes as Sudan or North Korea. And yet, Israel is the only one who is constantly compared to the Nazis.
You make good points, but we are just taking on two fundamental viewpoints that don't necessarily contradict each other but interpret the situation differently.
No idea what you mean, but whatever.
Regardless of our differences, we should focus our energies on something productive like figuring out a way to eliminate hostilities between these people and search for a solution--possibly a nice compromise?
I agree.
You're the one who keeps dragging this thing back to Hitler. It's a great tactic to avoid explaining the actions of Israel, to divert the subject where you are being attacked by some some Jew hater.
Are you serious?! You do realize that my only point was that the Israel=Nazi meme is cheap demagoguery? You're trying to divert it to some boring "settlements=baaad" debate, and you're crying because I won't play your game?
Anyway, I'm glad that we finally agree on one point: comparing Israel with the Nazis hurts serious debate by turning it into an emotionally charged troll fest ("a great tactic" indeed...)
That's not happening here as much as you try to pretend it is.
First of all, I was mostly talking about how you're defending this obnoxious practice, and not about how pervasive it is over here. And second... did you read the discussion on this page?! The thread about how Israel/Jews is just like the Nazis is huge, with all kinds of cute jokes about crescent-shaped patches for Muslims, and people like you, crawling out from their holes, crying about how the mean Jews won't let those people compare them to the Nazis.
But even if we ignore this article, I can tell you that every single English-language Internet forum I've been to* suffers from this problem. The moment somebody brings up Israel, you'll find a fucktard crying "Nazis!" in the first 20 comments. It's like Godwin's Law on steroids.
* Including, IIRC, the KDE support forums. WTF?!
No it's just incorrect. To say someone hates something when they don't is wrong.
Antisemites often claim that they "don't hate Jews" either. They just have a long list of claims, some more outrageous than others, against the Jewish people. You've already repeated one of the more famous claims - that the Jewish belief of "the chosen people" is like the Nazi Uber/Untermensch. What's even more problematic, is that you've defended someone who compared Jews to the Nazis.
Does this make you a full-fledged antisemite? I don't think so. But it does make you much closer to one than Israel is to the Nazis.
It isn't wrong to say that Israel took what isn't theirs, forced people off their land & homes, and continues to do so.
That could be said about China, Russia, the US, and just about any Western European country as well. The Nazis aren't famous for occupation and colonization - they're famous for killing millions of innocent people, simply because they didn't like their race. You might as well say that Catholic priests are SS officers because they wear black*.
* And no, I don't want to start a stupid debate about the wrongdoings of the Catholic Church
You compared me to Hitler. I have done nothing to put myself in the same league as Hitler. Israel does.
First of all, Israel never did anything to put itself in the same league as Hitler either.
Second, I compared you to Hitler to make a point, while you actually believe the stuff you say.
I did, however, say that you're closer to an antisemite than Israel is to the Nazis, and I stand by my words.
Well yes, it is really simple, and you can just obfuscate the issue by playing semantic games like "technically there was no such country as Palestine" and "technically this land belonged to Egypt and Jordan" and "Palestine is just a concept."
No, not just "technically". There never was an independent country called "Palestine". What's more important, before 1948 there was no distinct "Palestinian people" either. If the 1948 attack on Israel succeeded, there wouldn't be a "Palestinian people" now either. There would be only "Western Jordanians".
Btw, nobody actually argues about this point. Not the Arabs, not the Palestinians themselves, and certainly not the Israelis. This is really basic stuff, you know?
My ancestors are Polish, and for quite some time there was supposedly "no such country" as Poland
But at some point there was a Polish country, and, more importantly, a Polish people, who spoke the Polish language, and had unique customs and traditions. This cannot be said about Palestinians, who simply belonged to the larger Arab ethnicity before the 1948 war.
The point is that Israel is occupying Palestinian territory.
Uhm, you do realize that according to the Arabs (and Iranians), Israel is Palestinian territory, right? Dividing the land between Israel and a yet-to-be-formed Palestinian state is a compromise. Note how the little map in the HAMAS's logo includes both Israel and PA territory.
All of the hostilities didn't just magically come out of nowhere. It's not about "Israels neighbors hate Israel just because they're not Arab" or something ridiculous like that.
Really, then what was the deal with the 1948 war? You know, the one when several Arab countries (all of Israel's neighbors+Iraq) tried to eradicate Israel and annex the territory to Jordan? How about the hostilities before 1948?
Anyway, as I said in my previous post, go read a book about Israel/Palestine. Hell, you can read the Wikipedia article and know a lot more about the conflict than you do now. Arguing with someone who knows so little about the subject is very annoying.
You know, I really wonder what made you think that this was a logical reply to my comment.
What do the settlements have to do with anything I said!? Does your religion forbid you from staying on topic or something?
So, you do think that the theoretical person who flipped you off on the highway to be in any way comparable to the Nazis? I mean, he's an asshole who doesn't mind hurting people with his rude gestures, the Nazis were assholes who didn't mind hurting people with their gas chambers and submachine guns, it's just a difference of "level", right?
Well, guess what, you can't lose all perspective and then still rationally compare anything. Otherwise, everything is kinda like everything else, and the act of comparing anything is meaningless.
That especially true for the Nazis, who are not known for "killing people", but for killing millions of people. According to your theory, you could just take any murder and say that it's "like the Holocaust". But of course, if you say it, you will look like a moron.
In any case, if you want a non-quantitative difference, notice that I said "The Nazis killed millions of people simply because they believed that they were of an inferior race", while Israel killed people "while fighting against people who were trying to destroy it". That's an incredibly important difference, and if you ignore it, you might as well not make the analogy at all.
No, it's really simple
Everything is simple, when you're ignorant.
Israel is occupying territory that officially belongs to Palestine (at least according to the United Nations)
You seem to think that there is, or ever was, a country called "Palestine". That just shows how little you know about the subject.
Israel took the West Bank from Jordan, and the Gaza strip from Egypt. Shortly after the war, both countries relinquished their claims to the land. At no point did it "officially" belonged to "Palestine" (unless you mean the pre-1948 British colony by the same name).
Now, there is a concept called "Palestine", but it means something much more complicated and nuanced than you seem to think.
Israel has invaded Palestine, and that is why other nations tried to intervene.
Now you're just making shit up. Did you think I wouldn't notice or something?
Well, guess what, the six-day war (the one you're probably referring to), was not about Israel invading Palestine, if only because there was no such country. It has to do with the Suez canal, and with Israel's neighbors' objection to Israel's existence.
You know what, I won't even try to understand what you meant by "systematically destroying what's left of Palestine". It's just too obvious that you don't know shit about Israel/Palestine.
I really don't see how you have the nerve to argue about something you know so little about, and while using condescending little quips like "it's very simple". Did you think your self-confidence could hide your basic ignorance?
I'm sorry if that sounded a little harsh, but the topic is pretty important to me, and I find your attitude to be, frankly, insulting.
"Proper discussion", eh? So, I guess you think "antisemite" is way too harsh, and is too emotionally loaded to be a legitimate claim against you?
Guess what, the differences between you and "actual" antisemites is much smaller than between Israel and the Nazis, and the term "antisemite" is much less loaded than "Nazi".
I hope you understand my point now.
Saying that Israel did anything remotely approaching the Holocaust is nothing more than a modern blood libel.
Here we go with the God promised us this land stuff. I find this part entertaining.
No. There's lots of archeological evidence and external sources (that is, Roman, Babylonian etc.) that prove that the Jews lived in what we now call "Israel". To claim that religion is the only reason Jews think Israel is their ancestral homeland is to show your deep ignorance.
But even if we ignore that part - who do you think gets to decide where the Jewish ancestral homeland is, other than the Jews? And it's not as if the Jews claim the whole world to be their birthright. They only want a tiny piece of desert, without any oil or other precious natural resources, where they could exercise their natural right of self-determination.
Defending itself by expanding its borders and building settlements? Come on now.
No, by fighting people who want to destroy it. Or are you claiming that Israel has no real enemies?
Also, "expanding its borders"? Are you serious? You mean the land taken in 1967? Even if we ignore the fact that it was taken from countries that were trying to destroy it at the time, and the fact that both Egypt and Jordan relinquished their claims to that land, you do realize that it's a tiny piece of land? The way you make it sound like some imperialist campaign is preposterous.
Uh, no. You have a real misunderstanding of cause and effect
No, you didn't understand what I meant. When you're comparing Israelis and Nazis, you're not only demonizing Israel, but also trivializing the Nazi atrocities. The only way you can seriously claim that the two are comparable, you either have to claim that Israelis systematically killed millions of people because of their ethnicity (and then you'd have to provide some sort of proof for that crazy claim), or, more likely, you claim that the Nazis weren't that bad - and that's "hardcore holocaust denial".
It is not a one-dimensional comparison. Just because the level is not the same, does not mean there are not similarities in kind.
No, it's a ludicrous comparison. You might as well say that the person who flipped you off on the highway was like the Nazis. The Nazis killed millions of people simply because they believed that they were of an inferior race. Israel killed.. how many? Thousands? Tens of thousands, since 1948? And that was while fighting against people who were trying to destroy it.
There are lots of more appropriate analogies - China, Russia, even the US, who killed more people in the current war than Israel killed since its inception. Actually, even compared to much smaller regional conflicts, the Israeli/Palestinian is civilized (you don't see people raping girls and then shooting them in the head, like, say, in Iraq), bloodless conflict.
And yet, the moment you say "Israel" you heard people shouting "Nazis!".
As an objective analogy, it's bullshit. As an incredibly offensive statement... well, it works. But it's strange that people see that meme as anything but a lame troll.
No, but saying that Jews are the same as Nazis is very much like calling someone a "nigger".
Uhm, OK?
I mean, you're completely wrong - Israel is not just a colony like the US or Australia, it's the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, and the only country they have (unlike colonists, by the very definition of the word). But that's not the point.
I was talking about the victims of colonization. You know, countries that were, at some point, European colonies?