However I believe the scale was a bit different. I think the documentary movie that came out just a hear or two showed some of the initial stupidities on all sides. And while I don't consider most "Western" nuclear nations "perfect", I think they would be way more concerned with the bad PR of having mining engineers irradiated than China seems to be. After all China is still trying very hard to stop anyone publishing anything about human rights violations... so I'm a bit more concerned about the shoddy treatment that their folks might receive.
I'm aware of regular shaped charges, and to my understanding they rely on the delay time of the explosive wave front, something inherent in the chemical process. I believe that there is also something to do with the concentration of a shaped charge producing a superhot tongue of flame that does some of the work. I'd expect that the timeframe for a nuclear explosives wavefront propogation is much shorter, so I'd expect such a device to be pretty tricky to build.(In other words you wouldn't catch me standing "behind" one...;*)
As you mention I understand most shaped charges are used to punch holes through an intervening barrier, and thus relying on the acoustic shockwave to blow a "scab" off the other side of the material, so I wonder just what effect a shaped charge has against a truly massive and thick object, but then I'm not an explosives expert so I have no way of knowing.(I've read/heard accounts where they describe what happens inside a tank that gets hit by a shaped charge that doesn't penetrate the armor, but instead blows a chunk off the inside of the armor... quite messy.)
While they might get some better efficiency from shaped nuclear explosives, which you mention are still apparently theoretical, I still doubt that they could do this in one shot, in other words there would still have to be several nukes used and so my arguments about repairing damage done by later nukes are probably still valid. An additional thought comes to mind if they are using shaped nukes; wouldn't the explosion front tend to follow the weakest/lowest melting point rock, which might not be the same direction as you want the explosion to go?
Aside from all the water and associated political issues, which are not exactly small, just how big of a tunnel are they wanting to burrow through the mountain? Does anyone know what the geological strata are, ie. is the mountain made of granite?
From my understanding nuclear explosions such as that used by Project Plowshare are great at moving earth but even better at fracturing rock. So when they cutting that tunnel, just how are they going to avoid creating a huge fault line right through the mountain, let alone the possibility of enlarging any existing faults? And I also not that it sounds like this tunnel is going to be slanted... just where is the mountain going to slide to? (Hmmm, does this count as increasing the boundaries of Tibet?;*} When they excavated Cheyenne mountain for NORAD with regular explosives they had to bolt the core of the mountain back together. Just how much of Mount Namcha Barwa are they going to have to bolt back together?
And they're talking about building a 10 mile long tunnel with nukes? Which means that they're going to have to light off, say 10 small nukes to excavate the tunnel? And just how are they going to secure already excavated tunnel sections against the next, and all the subsequent nuclear blasts and how many million degree plasma? Don't forget that the explosion is going follow the path of least resistance, which is going to be straight out the already bored tunnel. So doesn't that mean that you're going to have how many metric tonnes of rock forcing their way down the already bored tunnel sections, at how many kilo's an second, neatly scouring off any anchoring bolts, shotcrete or ferrocement reinforcing that you've got...? So each time they light one off, they're going to have to re-inspect or resecure how much of the already bored tunnel?
If they want any precision, they're probablly going to have to go to smaller devices, which usually means that they're going to be dirtier(in the nuclear sense), especially in closed confines. Think of the neutron pulse that the surrounding rock is going to recieve. Wanna bet that there's going to be increased radioactivity? Sure you do...
And just who are they going to convince to go work in the radioactive, dangerously fractured tunnels? Gee, I sure wouldn't want to be the ones drafted to go down there, not for several thousand years. But then of course they could always just grab a few thousand Tibetans or radiation ignorant Chinese villagers and get them to do the dirty work, after all it wouldn't out of line with their human rights policies...After all wasn't this the same government that after lighting off a test nuke, had troops go charging into the test area with only gas masks? What's a few thousand dead or dying when you've got how many billion to water?
This whole idea of theirs is foolish from several dozen angles, I sure hope it doesn't go through. If they start this I wouldn't be surprised to see another war start... between China and India, not that China wouldn't mind the additional territory.
The international community should have stopped them from invading Tibet a long time ago, now they're just paying the piper..
While this is rather amazing accomplishment, I question wether this is, or ever could be a true Guar.
The scientists have managed to clone the nuclear(ie. in the nucleus, not atomic;*}) DNA, but I doubt they have managed to clone the mitochondrial DNA, indeed my understanding of most mammalian cloning techniques is that they are relying on the donor egg cell having functional mitochondria.
While the nuclear DNA contains most of the genes that will determine the overall shape, plumbing and wiring of the animal, mitochondrial DNA provides the genes for the enzymes and cofactors that turn sugar into ATP(energy) within the cell, as well as those genes needed to reproduce the mitochondria themselves(yup they're like little bacteria).. What if a true Guar's mitochondria had, and more importantly needed, genes different from a cows mitochondria in order to survive in a much hotter, humid locale, such as the jungles of Asia?
And then of course there is the question of cytoplasmic inheritance...where misfolded proteins could change an organism drastically. See http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/ucmc-pmp092500. html for an example. Without direct cellular inheritance you could end up with a rather different animal, perhaps only subtlely, but then we are only about 3% different from the great apes. How much does it take to turn a Guar into a Cowguar?
And of course there is the issue of behaviours taught to a young animal by it's parents or herd, as well as the environment that it grows up in, not to mention the required genetic diversity to sustainably bring back an entire species...
These animals are not "true" Guars, they are hybrids.
So yes Virginia, extinction is permanent!
Tinker23 - Currently taking Biology and Genetics at College.
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However I believe the scale was a bit different. I think the documentary movie that came out just a hear or two showed some of the initial stupidities on all sides. And while I don't consider most "Western" nuclear nations "perfect", I think they would be way more concerned with the bad PR of having mining engineers irradiated than China seems to be. After all China is still trying very hard to stop anyone publishing anything about human rights violations... so I'm a bit more concerned about the shoddy treatment that their folks might receive.
As you mention I understand most shaped charges are used to punch holes through an intervening barrier, and thus relying on the acoustic shockwave to blow a "scab" off the other side of the material, so I wonder just what effect a shaped charge has against a truly massive and thick object, but then I'm not an explosives expert so I have no way of knowing.(I've read/heard accounts where they describe what happens inside a tank that gets hit by a shaped charge that doesn't penetrate the armor, but instead blows a chunk off the inside of the armor... quite messy.)
While they might get some better efficiency from shaped nuclear explosives, which you mention are still apparently theoretical, I still doubt that they could do this in one shot, in other words there would still have to be several nukes used and so my arguments about repairing damage done by later nukes are probably still valid. An additional thought comes to mind if they are using shaped nukes; wouldn't the explosion front tend to follow the weakest/lowest melting point rock, which might not be the same direction as you want the explosion to go?
Aside from all the water and associated political issues, which are not exactly small, just how big of a tunnel are they wanting to burrow through the mountain? Does anyone know what the geological strata are, ie. is the mountain made of granite?
From my understanding nuclear explosions such as that used by Project Plowshare are great at moving earth but even better at fracturing rock. So when they cutting that tunnel, just how are they going to avoid creating a huge fault line right through the mountain, let alone the possibility of enlarging any existing faults? And I also not that it sounds like this tunnel is going to be slanted... just where is the mountain going to slide to? (Hmmm, does this count as increasing the boundaries of Tibet? ;*} When they excavated Cheyenne mountain for NORAD with regular explosives they had to bolt the core of the mountain back together. Just how much of Mount Namcha Barwa are they going to have to bolt back together?
And they're talking about building a 10 mile long tunnel with nukes? Which means that they're going to have to light off, say 10 small nukes to excavate the tunnel? And just how are they going to secure already excavated tunnel sections against the next, and all the subsequent nuclear blasts and how many million degree plasma? Don't forget that the explosion is going follow the path of least resistance, which is going to be straight out the already bored tunnel. So doesn't that mean that you're going to have how many metric tonnes of rock forcing their way down the already bored tunnel sections, at how many kilo's an second, neatly scouring off any anchoring bolts, shotcrete or ferrocement reinforcing that you've got...? So each time they light one off, they're going to have to re-inspect or resecure how much of the already bored tunnel?
If they want any precision, they're probablly going to have to go to smaller devices, which usually means that they're going to be dirtier(in the nuclear sense), especially in closed confines. Think of the neutron pulse that the surrounding rock is going to recieve. Wanna bet that there's going to be increased radioactivity? Sure you do...
And just who are they going to convince to go work in the radioactive, dangerously fractured tunnels? Gee, I sure wouldn't want to be the ones drafted to go down there, not for several thousand years. But then of course they could always just grab a few thousand Tibetans or radiation ignorant Chinese villagers and get them to do the dirty work, after all it wouldn't out of line with their human rights policies...After all wasn't this the same government that after lighting off a test nuke, had troops go charging into the test area with only gas masks? What's a few thousand dead or dying when you've got how many billion to water?
This whole idea of theirs is foolish from several dozen angles, I sure hope it doesn't go through. If they start this I wouldn't be surprised to see another war start... between China and India, not that China wouldn't mind the additional territory.
The international community should have stopped them from invading Tibet a long time ago, now they're just paying the piper..
Does this mean that Mars had a higher atmospheric pressure than Earth, and then lost it quickly enough to leave the effects of the liquid CO2?
That would seem rather odd, and very fast on geologic scales.
Perhaps the Martians bottled up all their atmosphere? Martian soda water anyone? ;*}
The scientists have managed to clone the nuclear(ie. in the nucleus, not atomic ;*}) DNA, but I doubt they have managed to clone the mitochondrial DNA, indeed my understanding of most mammalian cloning techniques is that they are relying on the donor egg cell having functional mitochondria.
While the nuclear DNA contains most of the genes that will determine the overall shape, plumbing and wiring of the animal, mitochondrial DNA provides the genes for the enzymes and cofactors that turn sugar into ATP(energy) within the cell, as well as those genes needed to reproduce the mitochondria themselves(yup they're like little bacteria).. What if a true Guar's mitochondria had, and more importantly needed, genes different from a cows mitochondria in order to survive in a much hotter, humid locale, such as the jungles of Asia?
And then of course there is the question of cytoplasmic inheritance...where misfolded proteins could change an organism drastically. See http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/ucmc-pmp092500. html for an example. Without direct cellular inheritance you could end up with a rather different animal, perhaps only subtlely, but then we are only about 3% different from the great apes. How much does it take to turn a Guar into a Cowguar?
And of course there is the issue of behaviours taught to a young animal by it's parents or herd, as well as the environment that it grows up in, not to mention the required genetic diversity to sustainably bring back an entire species...
These animals are not "true" Guars, they are hybrids.
So yes Virginia, extinction is permanent!
Tinker23 - Currently taking Biology and Genetics at College.