Maybe it is Saturday morning and I am not awake but what is the problem with the RH site? I have no flash problems using Links:-) or Konqueror. This machine does not have Mozilla or Firefox emerged. I looked at the document source code. What is the big problem?
(If I am missing obvious things, I apologize.)
Why don't you grow up? Red Hat contributes to the Linux community. Don't like RH? Then use Gentoo or something else. I use Gentoo almost exclusively but I do not complain about RH. Red Hat is still a Linux company, unlike Novell; I trust RH much more than SUSE because Novell could live without Linux and RH could not.
they can change the price of their support... But... but... this would make Scott McNealy and Jonathan Schwartz liars: "Red Hat does not have military grade security, or file system innovation, or [Solaris] containers, and it's also more expensive. Red Hat requires a binary license fee per CPU," Schwartz said in summary.
How can you even suggest this?
I think you'll have to get used to Linux fans looking down on every other OS. Because the others are running out of advantages. Compare your first Linux installation that you mentioned with any recent Linux version to see what I mean.
With large companies agreeing (for Linux, etc.) with the GPL and contributing to OSS, the rate of improvement should only increase. IBM may only contribute things of interest to IBM but this is OK; these things get done (by IBM) and the community is free to make improvements where "it" wishes. We do not require individuals to work on specific projects; each person finds the project he/she enjoys and works on it. Why not let companies like HP and IBM do the same? If they want to work on SMP support and you want to work on the TCP/IP stack, great. In both cases (if Linus agrees), Linux improves.
Different distributions don't count as "different"
You are entitled to your view but I see a lot of difference between Gentoo and some other distributions. This is just a matter how we each decide to define "different" and we disagree. (Or we could say that anything that works with the gnu tools is the "same". OK with you?)
Re:What day of the week is it?
on
Sun-isms Debunked
·
· Score: 1, Flamebait
I don't see them contributing to improve linux performance on Itaniums, for example.
Itaniums (and Itanium-2s) are effectively dead. VLIW was a really dumb idea; I know it has its proponents but I think they are wrong. The market/world has largely agreed that
Itanic
is dying. To bring up the lack of IBM support for a dying chip greatly weakens your argument.
Perhaps more important to Linux than any particular code contributions from IBM is their support in the IP/patent wars to come. I think Sun is on the way down and developers are generally not going to support Sun until it adopts the GPL and starts porting important parts of Solaris to Linux. I realize that you will disagree. The only important test is the test of time and I am fairly sure I have made the correct prediction. Watch this spot and see.
I think you have some valid points. With respect to the long term outlook for Sun, I would think (financial) analysists would be able to pick up on the point I made in my previous post and take this into consideration in their evaluations of Sun. I would think this puts a damper on the long term prospects for Sun.
Even if you are correct, would it not be better for the "non-MS" IT world to put the "great features" of Solaris into Linux and have an even better product than for Sun to try to fight with IBM, HP and Linux?
BTW, does anyone take Sun's Linux offerings seriously?
I think most people know where Sun's heart is (Solaris) and will prefer a different Linux distribution.
Red Hat Enterprise Linux is costly
For university faculty, RHEL is very inexpensive. Our IT person put RHEL on my AMD64 box even though I use Gentoo almost exclusively. (The department's laptop I took to Australia had Fedora Core 2++ (essentially 3) and it worked very well.)
My history may be incorrect but my impression is that Red Hat started with Linux and tried to find a business model that worked; I do not think they looked over the available software and picked the "best" (w.r.t. making money) one.
This
is interesting: Interesting quote from Red Hat's June 4 SEC S-1 filing:
WE RELY ON THE SUPPORT OF LINUS TORVALDS AND OTHER PROMINENT
LINUX DEVELOPERS
Our ability to release major upgrades of Red Hat Linux is
largely dependent upon the release of new versions of the Linux
kernel by Linus Torvalds, the original developer of the kernel.
The Linux kernel is the heart of the operating system. Mr.
Torvalds and a small group of engineers are primarily responsible
for the development and evolution of the kernel. If this group of
developers fails to further develop the Linux kernel, we will
have to either develop it ourselves or rely on another party to
develop it. This development effort could be costly and time
consuming, and could delay our product release and upgrade
schedule. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the kernel
would be available from a reliable alternative source. In
addition, any failure on the part of the kernel developers to
further develop the kernel could also stifle the development of
additional Linux-based applications. Moreover, if Mr. Torvalds or
other prominent Linux developers, such as Alan Cox, David Miller
or Stephen Tweedie, were to join one of our competitors, or if
they were to decide to no longer support us and our products in
particular, or Linux in general, our business, operating results
and financial condition could be materially adversely affected.
--
James Love
Consumer Project on Technology
http://www.cptech.org
love@cptech.org
202.387.8030; fax 202.234.5176
Does redhat care about open source? No.
I doubt that this is true. I give RH credit for supporting Fedora Core and for serving as an example that Linux services can form the basis of a profitable business. If Linux and the gnu tools were not GPL'd, RH would either be bought out by someone (Novell?) if RH "owned" Linux or someone (MS?) would "embrace and extend" (and break or fork) Linux if it were under a BSD license (ala HPUX, AIX, Solaris, Tru64, etc. or OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, etc.).
Red Hat's survival depends on open source; no one can steal Linux.
At the Max Planck Institute I was visiting, the Suns only had CDE. I hate CDE! The Sun people seemed to know almost nothing about gnome.
I did meet a woman from Switzerland who worked for IBM and was there to give a presentation; she seemed to be fairly sharp. I was very unimpressed by the people from Sun.
"Anyway, without a job, can you afford to buy from Apple?" was intended to empasize the relatively high cost of Apple hardware. I might have stated it in a better way so it did not sound like an attack.
(I might also have been poking fun at you a little for being an Apple advocate. This was mean - sorry.)
coupled with your comments about my credentials
Actually, I accepted your credentials without comment, the UT system is very good, almost as good as the TAMU system:-).
No, I hope you make it in your chosen career. We have a lot of AE majors here and most of them are very nice people. The aeronautical field is improving (w.r.t. jobs). In Denver, Adam Aircraft is trying to get a plane certified by the FAA; the guess is that this will never happen (composite spars). In Albuquerque,
Eclipse Aviation is trying to get certified and sell cheap jets.
Older companies (e.g. Piper,
Cessna,
Beech,
Learjet) expect to do well and some are hiring right now.
Airbus has
"four established hubs of Airbus activity in North America".
Boeing is another player in the aeronautical field.
Do you have any other intrusive questions about my personal life?
I do not have any questions about your personal life.
I believe Apple computers are good for certain people and Linux computers are good for certain people. If I have a concern about Apple, it is that its hardware is overpriced and underpowered; if these things do not matter, then use a Mac. For "grandmas", Apple might produce a very good product.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Until you get a job as a rocket scientist, you cannot claim to be one.
Several of the students I had in Honors Calculus later interned at NASA (Houston) and I think some have jobs with NASA now. I presume you liked UT Austin and UT Arlington? Anyway, without a job, can you afford to buy from Apple?
I was tired when I replied previously. Apple is fine if "Grandma" has lots of money and does not mind being tied to one company. However, if "Grandma" (or "Grandson") wants to be able to add lots of different hardware or spend less money, then Apple may not be the best choice. Over time, I believe Linux will have drivers (or drivers will be available) for lots of different hardware.
If there is better "Linux support for grandmas", then grandmas will have more choice and can pick Apple or Linux without worrying about worms, etc. in e-mail or while web browsing; a Linux distribution which is almost completely locked down is probably safe for grandmas to do simple things (on-line gambling?).:-)
Your argument depends on Solaris continuing to improve as fast as Linux. When you have IBM, HP, RH, etc. and the OSS community on one side and Sun on the other side, which do you think will have the better product in 3 years? in 5 years? in 10 years?
Fine, but why should we support Sun's goals? If Sun is a business and does not want to support the GPL, then Sun should look out for itself and not expect help from the OSS community. If Sun is willing to pay 2000 people to write applications for Solaris, I would bet you could find enough people who read/. and have the necessary skills. If you want them to do it for free and refuse to contribute back to the community, then I think you need to get a clue, Bill.
Including different window managers and KDE and GNOME is really annoying too.
I was at LinuxTag in Karlsruhe in July, 2003 and talked to the Sun people there. They barely knew about gnome and KDE was not in the mix. One reason I brought Linux on a laptop to ANU was the fact that KDE runs (sometimes and not well) on Suns according to the IT people and the Sun users with whom I spoke. I saw KDE on Suns hang (or crash - it depended) several times while I was at ANU.
When I was getting ready to go to
ANU recently, I had the choice of using the Sun machines at ANU or lugging a (heavy) Linux laptop from my department through the airports (4 flights each way).
Which did I choose?
The laptop, of course. I had enough trouble with Suns at the Max Planck Institute in the summer of 2003. I got a static IP from the ANU IT people, bypassed the ANU system and everything worked fine. I sshed into my office computer and used my U.S. email (kmail) instead of getting an ANU email account. I gave my "big" lecture using the laptop - I wrote my lecture in latex, created figures using xfig, "compiled" and obtained a postscript file and ported the screen output from gv to the data projector. If I had needed anything from my U.S. computer, I was sshed into it and could have viewed a ps file (e.g. of an older paper) if I had wanted or needed to do so.
(I believe my lecture was well received; at least this is what everyone told me.)
(begin rant)
By the way, Australian universities have been getting screwed by the government since 1975 and they could use all the political support possible. ANU is probably the best supported university and by U.S. standards the support is not good. The other universities are in trouble. The people at ANU were really great; if I were younger and a student, I would consider going to ANU. As a professor, you have to make a financial sacrifice to stay in Australia; many really good ones do stay but approximately 35% of mathematicians in OZ have left over the last 10 or 15 years. If you are "Howard", feel free to spend more on higher education; this "let each university do what it is best at" stuff is a (sad) joke. (Who needs anything more than biochem. and a medical school to be a university? English? History? Geology? What are they?)
(end rant)
Alphas are great; I still have one running next to my AMD64 in my office. It is a real shame that DEC PHBs, Compaq and HP ruined a great technology. (I have three (164) AlphaServers and two (164) Alphas just for the fun of it.)
Slashdot Mirror
I agree; let's have a holy war! You claim to be a Christian (Linux user)? But you support Luther (Red Hat)! Die!!!
Maybe it is Saturday morning and I am not awake but what is the problem with the RH site? I have no flash problems using Links :-) or Konqueror. This machine does not have Mozilla or Firefox emerged. I looked at the document source code. What is the big problem?
(If I am missing obvious things, I apologize.)
Why don't you grow up? Red Hat contributes to the Linux community. Don't like RH? Then use Gentoo or something else. I use Gentoo almost exclusively but I do not complain about RH. Red Hat is still a Linux company, unlike Novell; I trust RH much more than SUSE because Novell could live without Linux and RH could not.
Some lists:
stress, dating, crime.
they can change the price of their support... But ... but ... this would make Scott McNealy and Jonathan Schwartz liars:
"Red Hat does not have military grade security, or file system innovation, or [Solaris] containers, and it's also more expensive. Red Hat requires a binary license fee per CPU," Schwartz said in summary.
How can you even suggest this?
I think you'll have to get used to Linux fans looking down on every other OS. Because the others are running out of advantages. Compare your first Linux installation that you mentioned with any recent Linux version to see what I mean.
With large companies agreeing (for Linux, etc.) with the GPL and contributing to OSS, the rate of improvement should only increase. IBM may only contribute things of interest to IBM but this is OK; these things get done (by IBM) and the community is free to make improvements where "it" wishes. We do not require individuals to work on specific projects; each person finds the project he/she enjoys and works on it. Why not let companies like HP and IBM do the same? If they want to work on SMP support and you want to work on the TCP/IP stack, great. In both cases (if Linus agrees), Linux improves.
Different distributions don't count as "different"
You are entitled to your view but I see a lot of difference between Gentoo and some other distributions. This is just a matter how we each decide to define "different" and we disagree. (Or we could say that anything that works with the gnu tools is the "same". OK with you?)
I don't see them contributing to improve linux performance on Itaniums, for example.
Itaniums (and Itanium-2s) are effectively dead. VLIW was a really dumb idea; I know it has its proponents but I think they are wrong. The market/world has largely agreed that Itanic is dying. To bring up the lack of IBM support for a dying chip greatly weakens your argument.
Perhaps more important to Linux than any particular code contributions from IBM is their support in the IP/patent wars to come. I think Sun is on the way down and developers are generally not going to support Sun until it adopts the GPL and starts porting important parts of Solaris to Linux. I realize that you will disagree. The only important test is the test of time and I am fairly sure I have made the correct prediction. Watch this spot and see.
some canadian clubs as well. Don't worry, we can get you out. Just don't wear a pink tie or all is lost.
I think you have some valid points. With respect to the long term outlook for Sun, I would think (financial) analysists would be able to pick up on the point I made in my previous post and take this into consideration in their evaluations of Sun. I would think this puts a damper on the long term prospects for Sun.
Even if you are correct, would it not be better for the "non-MS" IT world to put the "great features" of Solaris into Linux and have an even better product than for Sun to try to fight with IBM, HP and Linux? BTW, does anyone take Sun's Linux offerings seriously? I think most people know where Sun's heart is (Solaris) and will prefer a different Linux distribution.
Red Hat Enterprise Linux is costly For university faculty, RHEL is very inexpensive. Our IT person put RHEL on my AMD64 box even though I use Gentoo almost exclusively. (The department's laptop I took to Australia had Fedora Core 2++ (essentially 3) and it worked very well.)
My history may be incorrect but my impression is that Red Hat started with Linux and tried to find a business model that worked; I do not think they looked over the available software and picked the "best" (w.r.t. making money) one. This is interesting:
Interesting quote from Red Hat's June 4 SEC S-1 filing:
WE RELY ON THE SUPPORT OF LINUS TORVALDS AND OTHER PROMINENT LINUX DEVELOPERS
Our ability to release major upgrades of Red Hat Linux is largely dependent upon the release of new versions of the Linux kernel by Linus Torvalds, the original developer of the kernel. The Linux kernel is the heart of the operating system. Mr. Torvalds and a small group of engineers are primarily responsible for the development and evolution of the kernel. If this group of developers fails to further develop the Linux kernel, we will have to either develop it ourselves or rely on another party to develop it. This development effort could be costly and time consuming, and could delay our product release and upgrade schedule. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the kernel would be available from a reliable alternative source. In addition, any failure on the part of the kernel developers to further develop the kernel could also stifle the development of additional Linux-based applications. Moreover, if Mr. Torvalds or other prominent Linux developers, such as Alan Cox, David Miller or Stephen Tweedie, were to join one of our competitors, or if they were to decide to no longer support us and our products in particular, or Linux in general, our business, operating results and financial condition could be materially adversely affected.
--
James Love
Consumer Project on Technology
http://www.cptech.org
love@cptech.org
202.387.8030; fax 202.234.5176
Does redhat care about open source? No. I doubt that this is true. I give RH credit for supporting Fedora Core and for serving as an example that Linux services can form the basis of a profitable business. If Linux and the gnu tools were not GPL'd, RH would either be bought out by someone (Novell?) if RH "owned" Linux or someone (MS?) would "embrace and extend" (and break or fork) Linux if it were under a BSD license (ala HPUX, AIX, Solaris, Tru64, etc. or OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, etc.). Red Hat's survival depends on open source; no one can steal Linux.
At the Max Planck Institute I was visiting, the Suns only had CDE. I hate CDE! The Sun people seemed to know almost nothing about gnome.
I did meet a woman from Switzerland who worked for IBM and was there to give a presentation; she seemed to be fairly sharp. I was very unimpressed by the people from Sun.
"Anyway, without a job, can you afford to buy from Apple?" was intended to empasize the relatively high cost of Apple hardware. I might have stated it in a better way so it did not sound like an attack. (I might also have been poking fun at you a little for being an Apple advocate. This was mean - sorry.)
:-).
coupled with your comments about my credentials
Actually, I accepted your credentials without comment, the UT system is very good, almost as good as the TAMU system
No, I hope you make it in your chosen career. We have a lot of AE majors here and most of them are very nice people. The aeronautical field is improving (w.r.t. jobs). In Denver, Adam Aircraft is trying to get a plane certified by the FAA; the guess is that this will never happen (composite spars). In Albuquerque, Eclipse Aviation is trying to get certified and sell cheap jets. Older companies (e.g. Piper, Cessna, Beech, Learjet) expect to do well and some are hiring right now. Airbus has "four established hubs of Airbus activity in North America". Boeing is another player in the aeronautical field.
Do you have any other intrusive questions about my personal life?
I do not have any questions about your personal life. I believe Apple computers are good for certain people and Linux computers are good for certain people. If I have a concern about Apple, it is that its hardware is overpriced and underpowered; if these things do not matter, then use a Mac. For "grandmas", Apple might produce a very good product.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Until you get a job as a rocket scientist, you cannot claim to be one.
Several of the students I had in Honors Calculus later interned at NASA (Houston) and I think some have jobs with NASA now. I presume you liked UT Austin and UT Arlington? Anyway, without a job, can you afford to buy from Apple?
I was tired when I replied previously. Apple is fine if "Grandma" has lots of money and does not mind being tied to one company. However, if "Grandma" (or "Grandson") wants to be able to add lots of different hardware or spend less money, then Apple may not be the best choice. Over time, I believe Linux will have drivers (or drivers will be available) for lots of different hardware. If there is better "Linux support for grandmas", then grandmas will have more choice and can pick Apple or Linux without worrying about worms, etc. in e-mail or while web browsing; a Linux distribution which is almost completely locked down is probably safe for grandmas to do simple things (on-line gambling?). :-)
Low prices? Strong OS development into the future?
Election 2004 results: 99% of Americans agree, 50% of Americans are idiots.
Best sig today!
Your argument depends on Solaris continuing to improve as fast as Linux. When you have IBM, HP, RH, etc. and the OSS community on one side and Sun on the other side, which do you think will have the better product in 3 years? in 5 years? in 10 years?
vi is the best!
Fine, but why should we support Sun's goals? If Sun is a business and does not want to support the GPL, then Sun should look out for itself and not expect help from the OSS community. If Sun is willing to pay 2000 people to write applications for Solaris, I would bet you could find enough people who read /. and have the necessary skills. If you want them to do it for free and refuse to contribute back to the community, then I think you need to get a clue, Bill.
Including different window managers and KDE and GNOME is really annoying too.
I was at LinuxTag in Karlsruhe in July, 2003 and talked to the Sun people there. They barely knew about gnome and KDE was not in the mix. One reason I brought Linux on a laptop to ANU was the fact that KDE runs (sometimes and not well) on Suns according to the IT people and the Sun users with whom I spoke. I saw KDE on Suns hang (or crash - it depended) several times while I was at ANU.
When I was getting ready to go to ANU recently, I had the choice of using the Sun machines at ANU or lugging a (heavy) Linux laptop from my department through the airports (4 flights each way).
Which did I choose?
The laptop, of course. I had enough trouble with Suns at the Max Planck Institute in the summer of 2003. I got a static IP from the ANU IT people, bypassed the ANU system and everything worked fine. I sshed into my office computer and used my U.S. email (kmail) instead of getting an ANU email account. I gave my "big" lecture using the laptop - I wrote my lecture in latex, created figures using xfig, "compiled" and obtained a postscript file and ported the screen output from gv to the data projector. If I had needed anything from my U.S. computer, I was sshed into it and could have viewed a ps file (e.g. of an older paper) if I had wanted or needed to do so. (I believe my lecture was well received; at least this is what everyone told me.)
(begin rant) By the way, Australian universities have been getting screwed by the government since 1975 and they could use all the political support possible. ANU is probably the best supported university and by U.S. standards the support is not good. The other universities are in trouble. The people at ANU were really great; if I were younger and a student, I would consider going to ANU. As a professor, you have to make a financial sacrifice to stay in Australia; many really good ones do stay but approximately 35% of mathematicians in OZ have left over the last 10 or 15 years. If you are "Howard", feel free to spend more on higher education; this "let each university do what it is best at" stuff is a (sad) joke. (Who needs anything more than biochem. and a medical school to be a university? English? History? Geology? What are they?) (end rant)
Alphas are great; I still have one running next to my AMD64 in my office. It is a real shame that DEC PHBs, Compaq and HP ruined a great technology. (I have three (164) AlphaServers and two (164) Alphas just for the fun of it.)