I'm creating a model which REPLACES the RIAA, I'm not trying to steal the RIAA's current property, I'm trying to create a foundation which can allow an indie musician to make money without signing an RIAA contract.
I dont want to support the RIAA, and you are right musicians who are owned by the RIAA wont be able to use my system, my system however would be for musicians who want to make music giving them a better option than the RIAA. The goal is to replace the RIAA and make them obsolete faster.
Lets implement it, make a website, create the software, intergrate paypal into the system, etc.
Or we can just create a site and put the Idea on it, and do what Cringly or whatever is doing and see if anyone picks up on it.
I consider the current process I'm in as the peer review process, but if people say it can work then I go into the next phase of figuring out how to implement it. I think it can be done, mojonation attempted to create a payment system they just did it in the wrong way.
The RIAA still gets paid, and still exists. This is bad for musicians, bad for the industry and bad for us. I want the RIAA to die.
Second, a central company is involved, while this does make sense, what happens when that central company becomes too powerful?
My solution is to decentralize everything including the business model. Check out my journal for information on my idea, please comment on it, if you think its a good idea let me know, if you think it sucks let me know.
My idea is to have consumers completely replace the RIAA as distributor. Each consumer will sell music instead of share it, by giving music a value in the market, making it worth something to the consumers, people will be more likely to sell music than share it.
Simply split the profit 50/50 and problem is solved. Credits represent money, each song should cost 50 credits which is 50 cent. When you sell a song you earn 25 cent and the musician earns 25 cent. No RIAA, no record company, nothing, we negotiate with the musicians, we become distributor, we earn money on distribution or credits which we can use to buy music, when people buy music from us we earn more and more credits, and as this happens we can download more and more music.
Please review it and find its flaws. The solution for musicians and music fans is for us to become the distributors of music legally.
How?
We replace the RIAA and distribute music via P2P systems.
The solution is a P2P system which intergrates into the web, there also needs to be a payment mechanism, (maybe paypal?)
Users buy credits in this system, credits represent dollars and cents. So how do you get into the system? You buy in by buying music from fans who are already in the system.
Say you are an indie musician, you make a bunch of music and you create a website, you then intergrate this system onto your website, allowing people to download off a certain P2P network via your site, almost like magnet links. The person who downloads from your site pays.50 cent per mp3 download, however the mp3 isnt downloaded from the musicians site, the mp3 is downloaded from the distrinbutor which happens to be a person who previously paid their way into the system by buying an mp3.
So the fans take the place of the RIAA as distributor and take 25 cent of the 50 cent, so the musician gets 25 cent and the fan gets 25cent or 25 credits. When the fan gets 50 credits they can then go buy another song, so its a system which allows you the filesharer to get unlimited access to music (Free Music) because you become distributor, you legally pay the musician for the music so the musician is happy.You may even make a bit of money. Everyone Wins.
Consumer/Downloader --> $ = $ --> Distributor&Creator , Consumers = Distributors & Downloaders. A closed system where we are the distributors, the creators, the owners of the intellectual property, and we get paid while having access to unlimited free music.
You get free music as long as you share. Musicians get paid. New people have to pay their way into the system but once they do, they get free music or money, whichever they choose.
If we can put the RIAA out of business, alot of the famous musicians which everyone likes would agree to such a setup.
What do you think?
I think its better than snapster because there is no central company involved.
how do you know most will? That was your generation, I'm predicting office work wont exist in 15-20 years as computers or outsourcing will destroy the whole service/clerk industry.
There are alot of politics involved when it comes to getting into AP courses. Its all political, you can be a genius and get bad grades, or you can be an idiot getting good grades and get thrown into AP courses, it actually doesnt matter what your grades are or how smart you are.
"Yes, to a point. However, school isn't there to just teach you stuff from books. School is also there to teach you how to function in society, and thus, to a degree, it is about who plays the system best. This sucks, but it's true."
No its not a schools job to teach a person how to live, thats a parents job. Its also not a schools job to teach students about sex, or to teach students good health.
The reason our schools arent good at anything is because we try to make our schools jack of all trades master of none.
If you are crafting your questions to make the teacher look stupid, you have to expect some sort of retribution. The teacher is human too, and they're in a position of power. Secondly, if you're asking questions so often that you really are creating a problem, perhaps a better way of dealing with things would be to talk with the teacher after class about your needs or questions.
I was a kid, I wasnt mature, the teacher should expect this kinda stuff from a kid. Yes the teacher is human but the teacher is an adult, and the teacher is a professional, its not professional to let emotions guide your decisions on the job. " Secondly, if you're asking questions so often that you really are creating a problem, perhaps a better way of dealing with things would be to talk with the teacher after class about your needs or questions."
Asking too many questions, not asking enough questions, theres no way for a student to know how many questions they can ask unless they teacher puts a number on the board "You all have 5 questions you may ask per class"
If there is no msg, you are assuming the student just knows, or is mature enough, has the social skills, etc, well guess what, not everyone student is like that, some have to be given proper instruction on exactly how many questions they must ask per class, this way they dont ask too many.
Otherwise, you can disrupt the class in any number of ways. Throwing things, talking, etc. I'm sure you can think of more.
And if you're not paying attention in class, then you should try to explain to the teacher (perhaps in that after-class talk) why you're doing it. If you've mastered the material, and you're bored, ask for something extra. Or ask if you can test out of that chapter and do something else. Don't just sit there like you don't care about anything and let the teacher assume that's the case.
I'm not going to ask for extra work, I dont enjoy doing paper work. Truth is I wasnt there for the fun, I didnt enjoy doing the work, and there is no way I would go out of my way to get a bigger workload.
Why can't you just sit there and pay attention? I agree that might not be much fun but let me tell you, there's a lot of stuff in life that isn't much fun but if you want to get anywhere you have to suck it up and deal with it. Why do you have to ask so many questions as to be unreasonable? Why do you have to screw around when you aren't asking questions?
Because theres nothing interesting to pay attention to. Why dont you sit and pay attention to the paint as it dries. Why dont you pay attention to the grass as it grows, or watch the birds fly around, all of these things were more interesting than what most teachers had to say.
Generally, teachers aren't there to find students they don't like and knock them down. If you're making their job hell then you have to expect that they aren't going to like that, and they'll use their power as the leader of the class to try to get you back on track. If you're screwing around then they'll try to get you to pay attention so that you can actually learn the material.
I never made their job hell, but I challenged their intelligence. You think you are going to teach me you better know your shit, no cheating using the teachers manual, and if you are a substitute I'm going to challenge you even more. Look, teachers like to pick on students and ask them to go in front of cl
"It's not disrespect, it's your teacher trying to do what's best for you. It's not disrespectful to try and teach you some discipline and to try and help you attain the ability to work for yourself. You're obviously a 16 year old/. troll who has never been to University, the workforce or another place where you have to work by yourself, in your own time in order to pass."
Actually I'm a 22 year old college student. Its not my teachers job to try to teach me discipline, thats what parent are for. Its not a teachers job to try to teach me to work for myself, thats my job. A teachers job is to teach me to think, to help me enjoy learning, and to grade my papers.
work by yourself, in your own time in order to pass
Actually thats when I do my best work, when I dont have outsiders trying to get on my case and make me do things in their way when they say do it. I dont NEED people to tell me what I need to do, I know what I need to do, and if I did need people to tell me this it certainly isnt a teachers job, let my mother or father do their job as a parent and tell me this stuff.
And besides, the homework was given to you in school. If you finished your in class work, I'm sure that your teacher would have had no problems with you doing it in class.
This is when I got charged with the crime of not paying attention in class and told to do my homework when I get home.
No we can't, and no it doesn't. Even long distance (school of the air in Australia) students have regular contact with a teacher. As a university student, I have many hours of tutorials each week. Sure, some course materials are delivered online.
But, the internet is not a wondrous teaching tool. It is not some fantastic panacea to help people learn. The internet is simply another media type that has the ability to deliver teaching materials.
I never said the internet was the ultimate solution, I said the internet is part of the solution, it is a more efficient tool than the chalk board and book. I use the internet to do my research and not libraries, I use the internet, I use my computer to do my work and type my papers, this is just the way things are in 2003.
Does authority exist if it is not used? You're whining about a few hours of homework, which, if set correctly (in my experience, mine generally was) would have helped you greatly. Homework falls into the learning method of "the zone of proximal development" - think building a scaffolding to the learning objective through experience and putting small pieces of information together to form a whole. Besides, if you treat your boss like this, you won't have one for long.
What the hell are you talking about?! Nonsense!!
Homework is utterly useless, if you want me to do more work give me more classwork.
Besides, if you treat your boss like this, you won't have one for long.
Maybe I wont, but I dont care. A person must respect me as a person or I will quit and I dont care how much the job pays.
I'm not saying that it's fun, it's good for you. I'm unsure of where your epicuran (in the traditional pleasure-seeking sense) educational philosophy came from, but the primary reason you are at high school is to learn. By all means, if you enjoy yourself while you're at it, good!
Huh? When did I say education had anything to do with pleasure? Now you arent making any sense. What I'm saying is homework does not help me learn therefore it is a waste of my time. I research on my own, I do not need a teacher to give me assignments and structure my life OUTSIDE of the classroom, its disrespectful and if you dont know how its disrespectul it means you dont respect your own abilities to teach yourself. You are a university student, grow some self respect, its your own hard work which brought you here. " By all means, if you enjoy yourself while you're at it, good!"
Well, you're right, those tactics are ridiculous. Still, if you drop out because they are pressuring you to, you're letting them win. Dropping out is not going to make your life better (although transferring to a private school, as you said you did, probably will), and so it still isn't a logical solution.
Yes but these are kids, and you know as well as I do that while the Adult mind may make the logical decision not to drop out, kids generally have weaker minds and can be convinced they just arent smart enough, or have some mental disorder, etc etc by older wiser adults. Its just like child molestors, the child molestor can easily convince the child that its ok, this doesnt mean it is.
However, I do remember a few situations where a kid really was consistantly being an ass, or disrupting class, and was NOT turning in "A quality work." The teacher did start asking the kid why he bothered showing up and the kid did get kicked out of the class every now and again.
Yes but a teacher should never ask a kid a question like that. Did you examine the kids work? How do you know it was not A quality work? Because the teacher said it wasnt?
Why do I bring this up? Because I think it's most likely that the situations where teachers resort to tactics like this are not entirely the teachers' fault. My dad always told my siblings and me that "it takes two to tango." People have to take some responsibility for their situation; very rarely will stuff like this happen just because you're sitting there minding your own business and doing the required work.
This is where you are wrong, when a Teacher does not like you, it may not have anything to do with the quality of your work. I admit I was not "innocent", I was not a teachers pet, but I did my work and my work was better than most of the class. I'm not even demanding I get all A's, but I certainly dont deserve an F just because the teacher doesnt like me, if my work is at least a B.
That said, I must have been "VERY VERY lucky" because no, I really haven't had to deal with those sorts of problems. On is it because I knew how to play within the system, and so I didn't run afoul of the system's rules? I dunno. It could be either, I guess.
Sure if you are a teachers pet, you do exactly what the teacher says in the way they say it, and you behave perfectly you'll usually get good grades even if your work sucks. The problem is teachers dont care about your work, they care more about behavior, and I'm not saying I was a mature kid, or that I had perfect behavior, but that has nothing to do with my work or the grade I should get.
I'm sick of people being judged on a personal level in school, the teacher doesnt like your personality, or how you act so you fail, thats BS. The system sucks, it shouldnt be about who plays within the system better or who conforms better, it should be about your ability to learn.
The whole "disrupting" class doesnt even make sense, how do you "disrupt" a class? Ask too many questions? Ask questions which make the teacher seem stupid? Ok so the teacher says you "disrupt" the class, so now you start drawing in class, and wasting time, trying not to disrupt the class, guess what, now the teacher says you arent paying attention in class!
You see what I mean? Its a behavior issue, a teacher cannot make you exactly like everyone else so they label you as disrupting the class, and when you stop disrupting the class you get labeled ADD because you dont pay attention.
How can you win if the teachers get on your case no matter what you try to do? This is why I blame teachers, they have a label for kids who "disrupt" and for kids who dont "disrupt" so how can a kid win?
Did those people you know have to drop out? If so, why? If not, why did they drop out?
They dropped out because teachers were pressuring them to drop out. I'll list some of the techniques some of which I myself was subject to.
1. Telling a kid they are stupid and they will never graduate.
2. Kicking a kid out of class for not paying attention or when the kid does pay attention kicking the kid out for asking too many questions.
3. Making fun of how the kid dresses because the kid is poor.
4. Forcing the kid to see doctors who diagnose the kid with one of the following disorders such as ADD, Bipolar, Depression, etc.
5. Constantly asking the kid "Why do you show up to my class?" and then kicking the kid out of class when they do show up.
6. Constantly failing the kid because the kid doesnt act exactly the way you want, and ignoring the kids A quality work.
Ok thats 6 reasons, but basically teachers dont care about students, at least not in the bad schools, you are just a number, a statistic, if you dont act exactly the way teachers want you to act, you have a mental disorder, you get kicked out of class, failed, and any student after a year or two of this is going to drop out or stop going to classes.
Why go to class if you are going to be kicked out by the teacher? Why go to class if you are going to be treated with disrespect? You wont.
So its easy for teachers to make a kid drop out, simply make it impossible for that kid to pass your class, tell the kid you'll never pass him and that he will never graduate, and make his life living hell by forcing him to see doctors and put all the blame for the bad grades on the kid.
Its simple, just like now in the Adult world the same thing can happen, if your boss wants to fire you they use the same tactics, they get on your case about stupid shit, you show up to work 5 minutes late, you dont follow the exact procedure, etc etc, a Boss can make your life living hell and make you quit your job so they dont have to fire you.
You have been VERY VERY lucky if you never in your life had to deal with people like this.
"Hold it. First you're railing against keeping track of attendance because it shouldn't matter if you show up or not, just so long as you can do the work. Now you're going on about how meaningless homework was for you, that it was "a bunch of meaningless paperwork."
Yes, because homework is pointless, people don't want to do work at home, school is built for a reason, there is a time and place for school work and thats at school. This wasnt a matter of me not being able to do the homework, it was a matter of respect, it is disrespectful for you to tell me what I am to do with my free time at home. Maybe I want to spend some time with my friends, my parents, or just watch some tv, giving me hours of homework which could have been given to me in school is pointless.
You can't have it both ways. Obviously in your case the self-directed notion of learning where you just do the work and turn it in, having taught yourself the concepts, was not working at all. And yet in the same discussion you rail against teachers for daring to hold you responsible for attending class, when obviously in your case there was a need for this encouragement.
What does homework have to do with learning? Absolutely nothing, I didnt have a problem with the paper work itself, even if it was pointless I would do it while in class because thats what class time is for, to do class work. HOWEVER when I am no longer in class and I am enjoying my own personal time, I do not think it is fair for you or anyone else to rob me of my freedom and tell me what to do with my personal time. If teachers want to give students more work let them make the class day an hour longer.
I recognise that a lot of the points you bring up are faults in the education system, but it's concentrated naivete to believe that you can adapt a large institution to the whims and desires of every single student
It works on the internet. This is 2003, not 1903. We can teach each and every student at that students pace using E-software, the internet, computer technology, etc. This seems to work well at the college level, why cant it work at the highschool level and below?
The "bend over backwards for Bobby" plan sounds great on paper, but until you can manage some significant changes in the way the educational system is funded and managed, it's just never going to happen.
If I can write COMPUTER SOFTWARE which does a better job teaching Bobby than some teacher, hell if I can put Bobby in front of a TV or Computer and these things do a better job teaching Bobby than a professional who went to college for over 4 years, something is DEFINATELY WRONG.
I'm sure that many teachers and educators would love to be flexible enough to adapt to the needs of every last student, but the fact is that is nearly impossible, logistically.
What we did in Iraq was impossible logistically, its not normal for a country to have a war end after just a few weeks. The precise weapons however we spent trillions of dollars creating allowed us to accomplish the impossible, so please donnt tell me something is impossible, its just a matter of how bad we want to do something. If we invested just half of what we invest on the military we wouldnt have these problems in school.
And frankly, most students' issues with their education stem from authority issues not pedagogy.
I admit I dont like authority, but I can respect authority when authority respects me. Like I told you, giving me homework is disrespectful to me, telling me what to do and when to do it is disrespectful to me, a teacher has no right to try to teach me professional skills, a teachers job is to review my work and help me produce higher quality output while teaching me to take in higher quality input. A teacher is not supposed to rule over or ruin a childs life, a teacher is not supposed to control the student, you see we should take from the Japanese and Chinese, if you were a martial arts teacher, you'd respect
"I think I need to spell out things a bit for you. The job of the High School is to prepare students to go out into the world and take a job, or continue on to college. "
No thats a parents job. The role of history is to teach a child how to educate themselves so that they will be able to learn in college.
Let's leave aside the argument about how academically prepared students exiting high school really are and look at your other arguments. In the job world, attendance, manners, dress and perceived attention span are very important.
Depends on the job, lets not assume all students will be factory workers, some people will be CEOs, Musicians, Artists, Programmers, Scientists, Firemen, Politicians. Not all of these jobs care about what time you arrive, how you look, or how good your manners are. Also its not a schools job to teach professional skills, thats a parents job.
This is why our kids cant read, we are so busy trying to teach them to be obedient and well mannered that yeah they know how to "act" right on the job but they dont have any ideas, they dont have a mind.
We all hear about how "cool company X" lets their employees wear whatever they want to, show up anytime, and ride skateboards through the hallways. However, we all know that this isn't the "norm."
Not everyone wants a corperate job for a company, doing office work as a clerk or manager. Thats what you do with your life, I'm not going to join the corperate world, there are plenty of jobs for non profit, government, social work, etc. There is no rule which says you must work in an office.." Most managers want to see their employees in their offices on time.
Argh please stop assuming everyone is going to be an office clerk.
. The want to see employees paying attention in meetings. They get nervous when these characteristics aren't displayed, and employees who can't achieve these standards are frequently fired.
Thats why theres creative departments for people who arent clerk material. Who do you think comes up with all the good ideas, the marketing, the programming, the research? Its not the office clerk who runs and fetches that coffee, thats what you do, some people actually have creative jobs which are deadline based, and task based.
Maybe it doesn't matter too much in economically good times, but during downturns, when jobs are scarce, this kind of behavior is important. High schools would be doing an incredibly bad job if they didn't enforce behavior that will ultimately make their students more likely to get a job.
Right so highschools should train everyone to be a n office clerk because you are one? Argh this is as sicking as when colleges would try to force everyone to get a degree in business or management. Forget about the artists, the people who design the commercials which Microsoft and other companies use, and forget about Lawyers, Politicians, Non Profit Orgs, or starting your own business, we dont want people growing up in poor neighborhoods to have jobs like these do we?
You also mentioned homework. While I agree that some homework assignments are absolutely idiotic, the vast majority of it is for practice.
Thats assuming everyone is an idiot. See they give homework because they assume you need to practice 20,000 times before you get something, some people however are smart enough to get it after doing it a few times in class, doing it 20,000 times only pisses them off.
Most students perform much better in all subjects when they do their homework. Countless times, I've heard teenagers complain about how bad their math was. When I asked whether they did their homework, they pretty much always answered "no" or "sometimes." Homework also gets students used to working independently -- a valuable skill for on the job.
Well I admit I'm not good at math, but it certainly has nothing to do with homework, I was given math homework where I did t
They asked those of us who were PAYING ATTENTION how to do the work when they notice they can't do it. It'd be another thing if they were, say, getting the current homework done during class because the material was too slow-paced.
When I would do homework during class the teacher would tell me "pay attention, do your homework at home" or some bullshit.
so you grew up in the inner city and went to an inner city public school?
There were lots of poor (dare I say low-class?) people with whom I went to school, but we did pretty well. It makes me think others could do it too, but you can draw your own conclusions.
How many people were in your school? You were an exception. Theres a reason that dropout rates are so high in inner city schools, theres a reason that people who grow up and go to these schools are less likely to go to college. Its because these schools suck.
You got lucky, hey I got lucky because I transfered to a charter school, but I know people who didnt get so lucky and they dropped out.
When I went to charter school and private school I didnt have these problems, but when I went to shitty public schools thats when I had these problems.
So let me guess, you grew up in the suburbs, went to a really nice public school, had great teachers and everything was fine. Good for you, but if you go to the shitty public school, things are very very different, you are just a number, none of the teachers give a damn about you, they all want to try to control you to get you to do what they want you to do when they want you to do it in they way they choose.
Slashdot Mirror
Why have a company?
Tell me why the Snapster 2.0 idea is better than my idea, my idea does not involve any company.
Well then why did you read the parent article? Your post is completely illogical.
Usually people who dont give a shit about a certain topic, dont read or post about that topic.
I'm creating a model which REPLACES the RIAA, I'm not trying to steal the RIAA's current property, I'm trying to create a foundation which can allow an indie musician to make money without signing an RIAA contract.
I dont want to support the RIAA, and you are right musicians who are owned by the RIAA wont be able to use my system, my system however would be for musicians who want to make music giving them a better option than the RIAA. The goal is to replace the RIAA and make them obsolete faster.
Please check out my journal entry http://slashdot.org/~HanzoSan/journal
Review my idea, and tell me if you think it can work, if you think it can work, lets discuss how we can implement it.
Lets implement it, make a website, create the software, intergrate paypal into the system, etc.
Or we can just create a site and put the Idea on it, and do what Cringly or whatever is doing and see if anyone picks up on it.
I consider the current process I'm in as the peer review process, but if people say it can work then I go into the next phase of figuring out how to implement it. I think it can be done, mojonation attempted to create a payment system they just did it in the wrong way.
http://slashdot.org/~HanzoSan/journal
I also have a NEW solution, why cant we rent music CDs like we rent DVDs?
Perhaps music rental services would be a possible solution.
Whats wrong with this? Its proven to work if Amway is doing it.
http://slashdot.org/~HanzoSan/journal
The RIAA still gets paid, and still exists. This is bad for musicians, bad for the industry and bad for us. I want the RIAA to die.
Second, a central company is involved, while this does make sense, what happens when that central company becomes too powerful?
My solution is to decentralize everything including the business model. Check out my journal for information on my idea, please comment on it, if you think its a good idea let me know, if you think it sucks let me know.
My idea is to have consumers completely replace the RIAA as distributor. Each consumer will sell music instead of share it, by giving music a value in the market, making it worth something to the consumers, people will be more likely to sell music than share it.
Simply split the profit 50/50 and problem is solved. Credits represent money, each song should cost 50 credits which is 50 cent. When you sell a song you earn 25 cent and the musician earns 25 cent. No RIAA, no record company, nothing, we negotiate with the musicians, we become distributor, we earn money on distribution or credits which we can use to buy music, when people buy music from us we earn more and more credits, and as this happens we can download more and more music.
I'd like comments on my idea, everyone please check out my journal,http://slashdot.org/journal.pl?op=display I'll also post my idea now.
Please review it and find its flaws.
The solution for musicians and music fans is for us to become the distributors of music legally.
How?
We replace the RIAA and distribute music via P2P systems.
The solution is a P2P system which intergrates into the web, there also needs to be a payment mechanism, (maybe paypal?)
Users buy credits in this system, credits represent dollars and cents. So how do you get into the system? You buy in by buying music from fans who are already in the system.
Say you are an indie musician, you make a bunch of music and you create a website, you then intergrate this system onto your website, allowing people to download off a certain P2P network via your site, almost like magnet links. The person who downloads from your site pays
So the fans take the place of the RIAA as distributor and take 25 cent of the 50 cent, so the musician gets 25 cent and the fan gets 25cent or 25 credits. When the fan gets 50 credits they can then go buy another song, so its a system which allows you the filesharer to get unlimited access to music (Free Music) because you become distributor, you legally pay the musician for the music so the musician is happy.You may even make a bit of money. Everyone Wins.
Consumer/Downloader --> $ = $ --> Distributor&Creator , Consumers = Distributors & Downloaders. A closed system where we are the distributors, the creators, the owners of the intellectual property, and we get paid while having access to unlimited free music.
You get free music as long as you share. Musicians get paid. New people have to pay their way into the system but once they do, they get free music or money, whichever they choose.
If we can put the RIAA out of business, alot of the famous musicians which everyone likes would agree to such a setup.
What do you think?
I think its better than snapster because there is no central company involved.
how do you know most will? That was your generation, I'm predicting office work wont exist in 15-20 years as computers or outsourcing will destroy the whole service/clerk industry.
Not everyone will work in an office.
Stop trying to make everyone fit into your mold.
There are alot of politics involved when it comes to getting into AP courses. Its all political, you can be a genius and get bad grades, or you can be an idiot getting good grades and get thrown into AP courses, it actually doesnt matter what your grades are or how smart you are.
I have not been given a single homework assignment in college.
Sure you practice, but theres no homework requirement, you practice when you need to
"Yes, to a point. However, school isn't there to just teach you stuff from books. School is also there to teach you how to function in society, and thus, to a degree, it is about who plays the system best. This sucks, but it's true."
No its not a schools job to teach a person how to live, thats a parents job. Its also not a schools job to teach students about sex, or to teach students good health.
The reason our schools arent good at anything is because we try to make our schools jack of all trades master of none.
If you are crafting your questions to make the teacher look stupid, you have to expect some sort of retribution. The teacher is human too, and they're in a position of power. Secondly, if you're asking questions so often that you really are creating a problem, perhaps a better way of dealing with things would be to talk with the teacher after class about your needs or questions.
I was a kid, I wasnt mature, the teacher should expect this kinda stuff from a kid. Yes the teacher is human but the teacher is an adult, and the teacher is a professional, its not professional to let emotions guide your decisions on the job.
" Secondly, if you're asking questions so often that you really are creating a problem, perhaps a better way of dealing with things would be to talk with the teacher after class about your needs or questions."
Asking too many questions, not asking enough questions, theres no way for a student to know how many questions they can ask unless they teacher puts a number on the board "You all have 5 questions you may ask per class"
If there is no msg, you are assuming the student just knows, or is mature enough, has the social skills, etc, well guess what, not everyone student is like that, some have to be given proper instruction on exactly how many questions they must ask per class, this way they dont ask too many.
Otherwise, you can disrupt the class in any number of ways. Throwing things, talking, etc. I'm sure you can think of more.
And if you're not paying attention in class, then you should try to explain to the teacher (perhaps in that after-class talk) why you're doing it. If you've mastered the material, and you're bored, ask for something extra. Or ask if you can test out of that chapter and do something else. Don't just sit there like you don't care about anything and let the teacher assume that's the case.
I'm not going to ask for extra work, I dont enjoy doing paper work. Truth is I wasnt there for the fun, I didnt enjoy doing the work, and there is no way I would go out of my way to get a bigger workload.
Why can't you just sit there and pay attention? I agree that might not be much fun but let me tell you, there's a lot of stuff in life that isn't much fun but if you want to get anywhere you have to suck it up and deal with it. Why do you have to ask so many questions as to be unreasonable? Why do you have to screw around when you aren't asking questions?
Because theres nothing interesting to pay attention to. Why dont you sit and pay attention to the paint as it dries. Why dont you pay attention to the grass as it grows, or watch the birds fly around, all of these things were more interesting than what most teachers had to say.
Generally, teachers aren't there to find students they don't like and knock them down. If you're making their job hell then you have to expect that they aren't going to like that, and they'll use their power as the leader of the class to try to get you back on track. If you're screwing around then they'll try to get you to pay attention so that you can actually learn the material.
I never made their job hell, but I challenged their intelligence. You think you are going to teach me you better know your shit, no cheating using the teachers manual, and if you are a substitute I'm going to challenge you even more. Look, teachers like to pick on students and ask them to go in front of cl
"It's not disrespect, it's your teacher trying to do what's best for you. It's not disrespectful to try and teach you some discipline and to try and help you attain the ability to work for yourself. You're obviously a 16 year old /. troll who has never been to University, the workforce or another place where you have to work by yourself, in your own time in order to pass."
Actually I'm a 22 year old college student. Its not my teachers job to try to teach me discipline, thats what parent are for. Its not a teachers job to try to teach me to work for myself, thats my job. A teachers job is to teach me to think, to help me enjoy learning, and to grade my papers.
work by yourself, in your own time in order to pass
Actually thats when I do my best work, when I dont have outsiders trying to get on my case and make me do things in their way when they say do it. I dont NEED people to tell me what I need to do, I know what I need to do, and if I did need people to tell me this it certainly isnt a teachers job, let my mother or father do their job as a parent and tell me this stuff.
And besides, the homework was given to you in school. If you finished your in class work, I'm sure that your teacher would have had no problems with you doing it in class.
This is when I got charged with the crime of not paying attention in class and told to do my homework when I get home.
No we can't, and no it doesn't. Even long distance (school of the air in Australia) students have regular contact with a teacher. As a university student, I have many hours of tutorials each week. Sure, some course materials are delivered online.
But, the internet is not a wondrous teaching tool. It is not some fantastic panacea to help people learn. The internet is simply another media type that has the ability to deliver teaching materials.
I never said the internet was the ultimate solution, I said the internet is part of the solution, it is a more efficient tool than the chalk board and book. I use the internet to do my research and not libraries, I use the internet, I use my computer to do my work and type my papers, this is just the way things are in 2003.
Does authority exist if it is not used? You're whining about a few hours of homework, which, if set correctly (in my experience, mine generally was) would have helped you greatly. Homework falls into the learning method of "the zone of proximal development" - think building a scaffolding to the learning objective through experience and putting small pieces of information together to form a whole. Besides, if you treat your boss like this, you won't have one for long.
What the hell are you talking about?! Nonsense!!
Homework is utterly useless, if you want me to do more work give me more classwork.
Besides, if you treat your boss like this, you won't have one for long.
Maybe I wont, but I dont care. A person must respect me as a person or I will quit and I dont care how much the job pays.
I'm not saying that it's fun, it's good for you. I'm unsure of where your epicuran (in the traditional pleasure-seeking sense) educational philosophy came from, but the primary reason you are at high school is to learn. By all means, if you enjoy yourself while you're at it, good!
Huh? When did I say education had anything to do with pleasure? Now you arent making any sense. What I'm saying is homework does not help me learn therefore it is a waste of my time. I research on my own, I do not need a teacher to give me assignments and structure my life OUTSIDE of the classroom, its disrespectful and if you dont know how its disrespectul it means you dont respect your own abilities to teach yourself. You are a university student, grow some self respect, its your own hard work which brought you here.
" By all means, if you enjoy yourself while you're at it, good!"
No I do not enjoy learning about st
Well, you're right, those tactics are ridiculous. Still, if you drop out because they are pressuring you to, you're letting them win. Dropping out is not going to make your life better (although transferring to a private school, as you said you did, probably will), and so it still isn't a logical solution.
Yes but these are kids, and you know as well as I do that while the Adult mind may make the logical decision not to drop out, kids generally have weaker minds and can be convinced they just arent smart enough, or have some mental disorder, etc etc by older wiser adults. Its just like child molestors, the child molestor can easily convince the child that its ok, this doesnt mean it is.
However, I do remember a few situations where a kid really was consistantly being an ass, or disrupting class, and was NOT turning in "A quality work." The teacher did start asking the kid why he bothered showing up and the kid did get kicked out of the class every now and again.
Yes but a teacher should never ask a kid a question like that. Did you examine the kids work? How do you know it was not A quality work? Because the teacher said it wasnt?
Why do I bring this up? Because I think it's most likely that the situations where teachers resort to tactics like this are not entirely the teachers' fault. My dad always told my siblings and me that "it takes two to tango." People have to take some responsibility for their situation; very rarely will stuff like this happen just because you're sitting there minding your own business and doing the required work.
This is where you are wrong, when a Teacher does not like you, it may not have anything to do with the quality of your work. I admit I was not "innocent", I was not a teachers pet, but I did my work and my work was better than most of the class. I'm not even demanding I get all A's, but I certainly dont deserve an F just because the teacher doesnt like me, if my work is at least a B.
That said, I must have been "VERY VERY lucky" because no, I really haven't had to deal with those sorts of problems. On is it because I knew how to play within the system, and so I didn't run afoul of the system's rules? I dunno. It could be either, I guess.
Sure if you are a teachers pet, you do exactly what the teacher says in the way they say it, and you behave perfectly you'll usually get good grades even if your work sucks. The problem is teachers dont care about your work, they care more about behavior, and I'm not saying I was a mature kid, or that I had perfect behavior, but that has nothing to do with my work or the grade I should get.
I'm sick of people being judged on a personal level in school, the teacher doesnt like your personality, or how you act so you fail, thats BS. The system sucks, it shouldnt be about who plays within the system better or who conforms better, it should be about your ability to learn.
The whole "disrupting" class doesnt even make sense, how do you "disrupt" a class? Ask too many questions? Ask questions which make the teacher seem stupid? Ok so the teacher says you "disrupt" the class, so now you start drawing in class, and wasting time, trying not to disrupt the class, guess what, now the teacher says you arent paying attention in class!
You see what I mean? Its a behavior issue, a teacher cannot make you exactly like everyone else so they label you as disrupting the class, and when you stop disrupting the class you get labeled ADD because you dont pay attention.
How can you win if the teachers get on your case no matter what you try to do? This is why I blame teachers, they have a label for kids who "disrupt" and for kids who dont "disrupt" so how can a kid win?
AOL Time Warner, Sony, etc etc have far far more lobby groups, and own far more politicians.
Why should the poor schools train kids for MC Donalds while the prep schools train kids for college?
I'm glad I went to a charter school.
Did those people you know have to drop out? If so, why? If not, why did they drop out?
They dropped out because teachers were pressuring them to drop out. I'll list some of the techniques some of which I myself was subject to.
1. Telling a kid they are stupid and they will never graduate.
2. Kicking a kid out of class for not paying attention or when the kid does pay attention kicking the kid out for asking too many questions.
3. Making fun of how the kid dresses because the kid is poor.
4. Forcing the kid to see doctors who diagnose the kid with one of the following disorders such as ADD, Bipolar, Depression, etc.
5. Constantly asking the kid "Why do you show up to my class?" and then kicking the kid out of class when they do show up.
6. Constantly failing the kid because the kid doesnt act exactly the way you want, and ignoring the kids A quality work.
Ok thats 6 reasons, but basically teachers dont care about students, at least not in the bad schools, you are just a number, a statistic, if you dont act exactly the way teachers want you to act, you have a mental disorder, you get kicked out of class, failed, and any student after a year or two of this is going to drop out or stop going to classes.
Why go to class if you are going to be kicked out by the teacher? Why go to class if you are going to be treated with disrespect? You wont.
So its easy for teachers to make a kid drop out, simply make it impossible for that kid to pass your class, tell the kid you'll never pass him and that he will never graduate, and make his life living hell by forcing him to see doctors and put all the blame for the bad grades on the kid.
Its simple, just like now in the Adult world the same thing can happen, if your boss wants to fire you they use the same tactics, they get on your case about stupid shit, you show up to work 5 minutes late, you dont follow the exact procedure, etc etc, a Boss can make your life living hell and make you quit your job so they dont have to fire you.
You have been VERY VERY lucky if you never in your life had to deal with people like this.
"Hold it. First you're railing against keeping track of attendance because it shouldn't matter if you show up or not, just so long as you can do the work. Now you're going on about how meaningless homework was for you, that it was "a bunch of meaningless paperwork."
Yes, because homework is pointless, people don't want to do work at home, school is built for a reason, there is a time and place for school work and thats at school. This wasnt a matter of me not being able to do the homework, it was a matter of respect, it is disrespectful for you to tell me what I am to do with my free time at home. Maybe I want to spend some time with my friends, my parents, or just watch some tv, giving me hours of homework which could have been given to me in school is pointless.
You can't have it both ways. Obviously in your case the self-directed notion of learning where you just do the work and turn it in, having taught yourself the concepts, was not working at all. And yet in the same discussion you rail against teachers for daring to hold you responsible for attending class, when obviously in your case there was a need for this encouragement.
What does homework have to do with learning? Absolutely nothing, I didnt have a problem with the paper work itself, even if it was pointless I would do it while in class because thats what class time is for, to do class work. HOWEVER when I am no longer in class and I am enjoying my own personal time, I do not think it is fair for you or anyone else to rob me of my freedom and tell me what to do with my personal time. If teachers want to give students more work let them make the class day an hour longer.
I recognise that a lot of the points you bring up are faults in the education system, but it's concentrated naivete to believe that you can adapt a large institution to the whims and desires of every single student
It works on the internet. This is 2003, not 1903. We can teach each and every student at that students pace using E-software, the internet, computer technology, etc. This seems to work well at the college level, why cant it work at the highschool level and below?
The "bend over backwards for Bobby" plan sounds great on paper, but until you can manage some significant changes in the way the educational system is funded and managed, it's just never going to happen.
If I can write COMPUTER SOFTWARE which does a better job teaching Bobby than some teacher, hell if I can put Bobby in front of a TV or Computer and these things do a better job teaching Bobby than a professional who went to college for over 4 years, something is DEFINATELY WRONG.
I'm sure that many teachers and educators would love to be flexible enough to adapt to the needs of every last student, but the fact is that is nearly impossible, logistically.
What we did in Iraq was impossible logistically, its not normal for a country to have a war end after just a few weeks. The precise weapons however we spent trillions of dollars creating allowed us to accomplish the impossible, so please donnt tell me something is impossible, its just a matter of how bad we want to do something. If we invested just half of what we invest on the military we wouldnt have these problems in school.
And frankly, most students' issues with their education stem from authority issues not pedagogy.
I admit I dont like authority, but I can respect authority when authority respects me. Like I told you, giving me homework is disrespectful to me, telling me what to do and when to do it is disrespectful to me, a teacher has no right to try to teach me professional skills, a teachers job is to review my work and help me produce higher quality output while teaching me to take in higher quality input. A teacher is not supposed to rule over or ruin a childs life, a teacher is not supposed to control the student, you see we should take from the Japanese and Chinese, if you were a martial arts teacher, you'd respect
Yeah and thats why Russia had such success. They trained their kids to be geniuses.
"I think I need to spell out things a bit for you. The job of the High School is to prepare students to go out into the world and take a job, or continue on to college. "
." Most managers want to see their employees in their offices on time.
No thats a parents job. The role of history is to teach a child how to educate themselves so that they will be able to learn in college.
Let's leave aside the argument about how academically prepared students exiting high school really are and look at your other arguments. In the job world, attendance, manners, dress and perceived attention span are very important.
Depends on the job, lets not assume all students will be factory workers, some people will be CEOs, Musicians, Artists, Programmers, Scientists, Firemen, Politicians. Not all of these jobs care about what time you arrive, how you look, or how good your manners are. Also its not a schools job to teach professional skills, thats a parents job.
This is why our kids cant read, we are so busy trying to teach them to be obedient and well mannered that yeah they know how to "act" right on the job but they dont have any ideas, they dont have a mind.
We all hear about how "cool company X" lets their employees wear whatever they want to, show up anytime, and ride skateboards through the hallways. However, we all know that this isn't the "norm."
Not everyone wants a corperate job for a company, doing office work as a clerk or manager. Thats what you do with your life, I'm not going to join the corperate world, there are plenty of jobs for non profit, government, social work, etc. There is no rule which says you must work in an office.
Argh please stop assuming everyone is going to be an office clerk.
. The want to see employees paying attention in meetings. They get nervous when these characteristics aren't displayed, and employees who can't achieve these standards are frequently fired.
Thats why theres creative departments for people who arent clerk material. Who do you think comes up with all the good ideas, the marketing, the programming, the research? Its not the office clerk who runs and fetches that coffee, thats what you do, some people actually have creative jobs which are deadline based, and task based.
Maybe it doesn't matter too much in economically good times, but during downturns, when jobs are scarce, this kind of behavior is important. High schools would be doing an incredibly bad job if they didn't enforce behavior that will ultimately make their students more likely to get a job.
Right so highschools should train everyone to be a n office clerk because you are one? Argh this is as sicking as when colleges would try to force everyone to get a degree in business or management. Forget about the artists, the people who design the commercials which Microsoft and other companies use, and forget about Lawyers, Politicians, Non Profit Orgs, or starting your own business, we dont want people growing up in poor neighborhoods to have jobs like these do we?
You also mentioned homework. While I agree that some homework assignments are absolutely idiotic, the vast majority of it is for practice.
Thats assuming everyone is an idiot. See they give homework because they assume you need to practice 20,000 times before you get something, some people however are smart enough to get it after doing it a few times in class, doing it 20,000 times only pisses them off.
Most students perform much better in all subjects when they do their homework. Countless times, I've heard teenagers complain about how bad their math was. When I asked whether they did their homework, they pretty much always answered "no" or "sometimes." Homework also gets students used to working independently -- a valuable skill for on the job.
Well I admit I'm not good at math, but it certainly has nothing to do with homework, I was given math homework where I did t
They asked those of us who were PAYING ATTENTION how to do the work when they notice they can't do it. It'd be another thing if they were, say, getting the current homework done during class because the material was too slow-paced.
When I would do homework during class the teacher would tell me "pay attention, do your homework at home" or some bullshit.
So its all bullshit.
so you grew up in the inner city and went to an inner city public school?
There were lots of poor (dare I say low-class?) people with whom I went to school, but we did pretty well. It makes me think others could do it too, but you can draw your own conclusions.
How many people were in your school? You were an exception. Theres a reason that dropout rates are so high in inner city schools, theres a reason that people who grow up and go to these schools are less likely to go to college. Its because these schools suck.
You got lucky, hey I got lucky because I transfered to a charter school, but I know people who didnt get so lucky and they dropped out.
Maybe you went to upper class private school.
When I went to charter school and private school I didnt have these problems, but when I went to shitty public schools thats when I had these problems.
So let me guess, you grew up in the suburbs, went to a really nice public school, had great teachers and everything was fine. Good for you, but if you go to the shitty public school, things are very very different, you are just a number, none of the teachers give a damn about you, they all want to try to control you to get you to do what they want you to do when they want you to do it in they way they choose.