Tell me, how many members of congress know anything about health care insurance? Maybe one or two, but that doesn't stop them from passing comprehensive changes to the whole system and disrupting 14% of the economy...
So who's surprised that the people writing laws in Australia don't know what they are doing? Not me..
I get the picture all right and it looks a LOT like a straw man to me.
I'll say again... YOU don't know what these people believe or how they address your question of their logic nor do I. So you are effectively setting up a straw man by making your assumptions about why their position is inconsistent. It doesn't matter what YOU think they should believe...
All that really matters here is that they refused to participate in an activity they found to be objectionable. How they justify their objection is unimportant.
The tolerant thing to do is walk away and do business with somebody else who doesn't have such an objection. The intolerant thing to do is get your back up and try and force them to comply with your wishes.
Even if you assume the business owners are wrong first, haven't you heard the old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right" ? Just walk away, let them be wrong if they insist. That's Tolerance...
Rather than take the time to understand their perimeter and data it exposes they want to "protect" everything with HTTPS. Which probably doesn't make sense for static, non interactive services.
This says a lot about their security program...
And the people who are deciding what to do next in said program...
For instance, the law of gravity says that things fall down
Oh please.
I'm an engineer
A "software engineer" by any chance?
Electrical Engineer by degree and professional experience, Software engineer by majority of professional experience but I have dabbled in mechanical engineering, systems engineering and more at work. Don't get me started on my hobbies....
Maybe this is the best approach, but I'd be wary about just launching a wholesale "replace it all" approach unless I knew a couple of things first.
1. What the problem was, exactly, and where did it come from in general...
2. How it spreads around...
3. That the thing is contained...
Further, before I go and start ripping out stuff to replace it, I'd want to be 100% sure that the problem will NOT infect the new hardware and systems. So when someone starts saying we have to replace stuff to get rid of this problem that's infected it, I start to get dubious.. But if like you, they say something along the lines of "Well, we could remove it from your current equipment for X and it would take us y time, or we could just replace the old infected equipment with new for less. We suggest you just replace the old stuff, it's cheaper/faster/better."
If some business won't serve me, I'll just say goodbye
That's fine, but can we agree that the business that refused service was the one to "cast the first stone"? And since by definition they are not "without sin", then they're not really following the teachings of Christ. Therefore making their assertions that they're refusing the gay couple service "because of religion" null and void.
If you're a Christian and you're refusing someone service, then according to the teachings of Christ you are doing it wrong.
I have no idea what the religious views of the Baker or pizza guy are and what's more it doesn't matter any more than what MY views are (as an uninvolved third party) to the question of tolerance. And this idea that they are somehow inconsistent with their religious beliefs by your estimation is irrelevant too. You don't know what they are thinking or what they are basing their position on so how can we (as two uninvolved parties) pass judgment on the consistency of what they believe? I don't think we can. And even if we could prove them to be using stupid logic, how's it matter? They said no, move on.
The tolerant thing to do when you feel offended is to politely walk away and I don't understand why society today doesn't recognize that. Oh no, today we are taught that we must fight tooth and nail for our "rights" how ever we choose to define them, and that includes forcing people into submission by intimidation, and even the civil courts. How uncivil, rude and combative have we become about this. Just walk away and forget about it, take your business someplace else and be done with it.
IF you are investigating people for crimes they are currently involved in, you don't go around telling everybody who you are investigating. Making all this public record would be stupid because it would be like telling the criminals when and where you are watching.
The FBI must be able to keep secrets and operate out of public view to do their jobs.
Before you go off half cocked and start claiming this isn't fair or right because there isn't any accountability... Remember this. When they bring charges and present their collected evidence at a criminal trial, they are required to prove that the evidence was legally collected or risk having it tossed out at trial. So there IS a public vetting of what they are doing in secret, and this review is done where it really counts during the trial.
Naw. REAL engineers knows that anything can be broken. Same for politicians and lawyers.
Support real people.
Well... I'm an engineer and I don't agree. You won't be breaking the 2nd law of thermodynamics any time soon... However...
That's not to say laws often cannot be OVERCOME by the application of effort, time and money in sufficient quantities.
For instance, the law of gravity says that things fall down.... But if you try hard enough and apply enough resources, you can overcome that and build an airplane... Or launch something into deep space, never to return...
Germans suspect that the Russian foreign intelligence service SVR is behind the attack. On Thursday, the parliament will discuss how to address the situation.
So if this isn't enough, what constitutes an act of war these days?
You got to say "I break with thee.. I break with thee!" and then throw doggy dodo on their shoes to make it official...
Well darn.. I guess they will just have to replace the whole country then...
Seriously, it may be hard to find, but SURELY there is somebody who has enough knowledge and skill to do it, no matter who is responsible or what's involved...
Isn't it funny that politicians actually do think like this, or at least act like they do? "Hey I helped pass a law that made it illegal for children to starve! I CARE about children!" No one seems to mind that all the law does is issue tickets and assess fines for children who choose to starve....
Yes, and I also omitted a number of German taxes (solidarity tax and Church tax) which pretty much make up the same percentage.
I think it's pretty clear that the overall tax burden in Germany is somewhat larger than here in the USA (and as you point out this will vary based on the local tax rates) but I'm pretty sure that 5% more for Germans would be pretty universal, with it usually being more.
So, in the absence of some hard numbers, where somebody goes though and actually comes up with real numbers, all we have is your guess and mine, so I'm picking my number to be more accurate, until proven otherwise.
Forcing someone to act in violation of their personal convictions just because YOU think you are right is intolerance.
You may be right. I'm curious: what would you say to those people who were denied marriage licenses because one partner was white and the other black?
That's NOT what this debate is about, I'm discussing tolerance. I am taking no position on the state issuing or not issuing marriage licenses or for whom they issue them, at least not here. My personal option on this topic is irrelevant (as in it doesn't matter) to the question of tolerance so I'm not going to discuss it.
I was poor too, I graduated high school, worked my way though college and got out of the cycle. Don't tell me working doesn't make a difference or that my success was from some stroke of luck. Collage was HARD WORK given that I had to work full time while I went to school full time too. It took 5 years to get my degree, but I managed it. My first professional job was lousy pay, but I worked hard, moved up, made more. I moved and worked in 4 different states to improve my standing, make more money and advance my career. 25 years later, I'm still at it, while the bulk of my peers from high school are still on welfare, living on nearly nothing because it's easy.
My experience wasn't "a stroke of luck" but working towards my goals, none of what I have was just handed to me nor did I steal it, I earned it. I'm not fabulously rich, but I don't live paycheck to paycheck either. But I started with nothing, came from a poor family, was the first to get a college degree. Now I'm sending MY kids to college and they will start out their adult lives BETTER than I did, with more education, more prospects and higher goals. So WHY is this?
I believe the difference is in how I was raised. I was taught that you work hard, earn what you need and don't depend on the government but yourself to provide for your needs. I've had paying jobs nearly constantly since I was 14, earning money, saving for things. I've shoveled you know what on the farm, cleaned toilets, dumped trash, mowed thousands of acres of grass and even managed to work as a software engineer for decades, because that's how I was raised.
I suppose you *could* call it luck that my parents passed that work ethic on to me, that I wasn't born to a family stuck in the cycle of dependence, that I was raised to succeed... However, I believe that it was and is attitude that kept the bulk of my peers "enslaved" in the dependency cycle and not "the man" or "the system being rigged". I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm not saying that some of my peers wouldn't face obstacles I never had too face, but I am saying that how I did it, how I got to where I am, is something that works for the vast majority who try it...
Comparing the moderated market economy of Europe with the quite unfettered one of the US I just simply cannot see the advantage of the latter. Unless of course you happen to have more money than a Detroit mayor could spend in a term.
The mayor of Detroit is a pretty poor example.... That city literally has NO MONEY and is in receivership so I'm not sure the mayor could get a dime for the parking meter from the city...
You are trying to say that YOU are right and THEY are wrong and should be forced to do what's right.
No, I'm saying that if you're going to profess to follow the teachings of Christ, then don't do the opposite and pretend you're following the teachings of Christ.
I'd like to point out that I didn't bring the Bible into this discussion and I'm not and have not made any claim to the higher moral ground based on my religious views or my interpretations of Christ's teachings. Personally, my view is that it's not any of my business what somebody else does, I have enough trouble with just my life. I'm no better than anybody else on this rock, so I have no place to correct, no authority over, and no responsibility for what others do.
So why do you bring a charge of hypocrisy to this discussion?
I think it is because you realize that the claim that that baker and pizza guy are being intolerant and therefor MUST be brought into submission to YOUR views of what's tolerant is in itself intolerant. Which means those who attempt to force their vision of tolerance really are the intolerant ones and thus hypocrites.
How about we just stop here? Walk away and agree to disagree? Which is, after all, what I'm suggesting those on your side of the debate really should do. Let people be wrong if they insist on it...
So, with that... I'm done debating with you, at least on this subject for now.
You are trying to say that YOU are right and THEY are wrong and should be forced to do what's right. That's intolerance on YOUR part, so there is no need to call the pot black now, just walk out and buy your cake and pizza someplace else...
There's a difference between not being profitable, and not being profitable 'enough'. The Concorde was profitable. It just ran on a thin margin (which got increasingly thinner after 9/11 and after fuel prices went up) and didn't make as much money as conventional subsonic planes.
Which is exactly why we won't build another Concorde. You cannot make (enough) money flying them (or in this case, you can make more if you don't). I don't see that situation changing unless fuel costs fall though the floor, and that's about as like as a snowball not melting in... Well you know...
Management is ALWAYS to blame, because in the end, they are responsible for everything.
So I'd like to point out that not having the tools in place is a management problem too. This problem seems to be systemic in the industry of software development in general. Few organizations put the thought, and resources necessary into their management processes to give themselves the visibility they need to be effectively managing the system development.
Slashdot Mirror
It's the way of politics...
Tell me, how many members of congress know anything about health care insurance? Maybe one or two, but that doesn't stop them from passing comprehensive changes to the whole system and disrupting 14% of the economy...
So who's surprised that the people writing laws in Australia don't know what they are doing? Not me..
The stupid feds will never figure this one out! - Dread Pirate Roberts
Wesley is that you, Cumberbun, or the real DPR?
I get the picture all right and it looks a LOT like a straw man to me.
I'll say again... YOU don't know what these people believe or how they address your question of their logic nor do I. So you are effectively setting up a straw man by making your assumptions about why their position is inconsistent. It doesn't matter what YOU think they should believe...
All that really matters here is that they refused to participate in an activity they found to be objectionable. How they justify their objection is unimportant.
The tolerant thing to do is walk away and do business with somebody else who doesn't have such an objection. The intolerant thing to do is get your back up and try and force them to comply with your wishes.
Even if you assume the business owners are wrong first, haven't you heard the old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right" ? Just walk away, let them be wrong if they insist. That's Tolerance...
Please, let's not nuke anything in or from orbit... Further, let's not nuke anything if we can help it..
It's far to messy and has some pretty bad side effects....
Rather than take the time to understand their perimeter and data it exposes they want to "protect" everything with HTTPS. Which probably doesn't make sense for static, non interactive services.
This says a lot about their security program...
And the people who are deciding what to do next in said program...
For instance, the law of gravity says that things fall down
Oh please.
I'm an engineer
A "software engineer" by any chance?
Electrical Engineer by degree and professional experience, Software engineer by majority of professional experience but I have dabbled in mechanical engineering, systems engineering and more at work. Don't get me started on my hobbies....
Maybe this is the best approach, but I'd be wary about just launching a wholesale "replace it all" approach unless I knew a couple of things first.
1. What the problem was, exactly, and where did it come from in general...
2. How it spreads around...
3. That the thing is contained...
Further, before I go and start ripping out stuff to replace it, I'd want to be 100% sure that the problem will NOT infect the new hardware and systems. So when someone starts saying we have to replace stuff to get rid of this problem that's infected it, I start to get dubious.. But if like you, they say something along the lines of "Well, we could remove it from your current equipment for X and it would take us y time, or we could just replace the old infected equipment with new for less. We suggest you just replace the old stuff, it's cheaper/faster/better."
That's fine, but can we agree that the business that refused service was the one to "cast the first stone"? And since by definition they are not "without sin", then they're not really following the teachings of Christ. Therefore making their assertions that they're refusing the gay couple service "because of religion" null and void.
If you're a Christian and you're refusing someone service, then according to the teachings of Christ you are doing it wrong.
I have no idea what the religious views of the Baker or pizza guy are and what's more it doesn't matter any more than what MY views are (as an uninvolved third party) to the question of tolerance. And this idea that they are somehow inconsistent with their religious beliefs by your estimation is irrelevant too. You don't know what they are thinking or what they are basing their position on so how can we (as two uninvolved parties) pass judgment on the consistency of what they believe? I don't think we can. And even if we could prove them to be using stupid logic, how's it matter? They said no, move on.
The tolerant thing to do when you feel offended is to politely walk away and I don't understand why society today doesn't recognize that. Oh no, today we are taught that we must fight tooth and nail for our "rights" how ever we choose to define them, and that includes forcing people into submission by intimidation, and even the civil courts. How uncivil, rude and combative have we become about this. Just walk away and forget about it, take your business someplace else and be done with it.
Oh please.. Think about it a bit..
IF you are investigating people for crimes they are currently involved in, you don't go around telling everybody who you are investigating. Making all this public record would be stupid because it would be like telling the criminals when and where you are watching.
The FBI must be able to keep secrets and operate out of public view to do their jobs.
Before you go off half cocked and start claiming this isn't fair or right because there isn't any accountability... Remember this. When they bring charges and present their collected evidence at a criminal trial, they are required to prove that the evidence was legally collected or risk having it tossed out at trial. So there IS a public vetting of what they are doing in secret, and this review is done where it really counts during the trial.
Correct... You can stay on my lawn because you are old enough.... The rest of you can scram before I call the McKinney police...
Naw. REAL engineers knows that anything can be broken. Same for politicians and lawyers.
Support real people.
Well... I'm an engineer and I don't agree. You won't be breaking the 2nd law of thermodynamics any time soon... However...
That's not to say laws often cannot be OVERCOME by the application of effort, time and money in sufficient quantities.
For instance, the law of gravity says that things fall down.... But if you try hard enough and apply enough resources, you can overcome that and build an airplane... Or launch something into deep space, never to return...
Germans suspect that the Russian foreign intelligence service SVR is behind the attack. On Thursday, the parliament will discuss how to address the situation.
So if this isn't enough, what constitutes an act of war these days?
You got to say "I break with thee.. I break with thee!" and then throw doggy dodo on their shoes to make it official...
(Anybody know where that quote comes from?)
If you explain the situation, the NSA would be glad to give you some free computers for your parliament.
Don't they have some now that their program has been scaled back?
Well darn.. I guess they will just have to replace the whole country then...
Seriously, it may be hard to find, but SURELY there is somebody who has enough knowledge and skill to do it, no matter who is responsible or what's involved...
There should be a law.....
Isn't it funny that politicians actually do think like this, or at least act like they do? "Hey I helped pass a law that made it illegal for children to starve! I CARE about children!" No one seems to mind that all the law does is issue tickets and assess fines for children who choose to starve....
Yes, and I also omitted a number of German taxes (solidarity tax and Church tax) which pretty much make up the same percentage.
I think it's pretty clear that the overall tax burden in Germany is somewhat larger than here in the USA (and as you point out this will vary based on the local tax rates) but I'm pretty sure that 5% more for Germans would be pretty universal, with it usually being more.
So, in the absence of some hard numbers, where somebody goes though and actually comes up with real numbers, all we have is your guess and mine, so I'm picking my number to be more accurate, until proven otherwise.
Forcing someone to act in violation of their personal convictions just because YOU think you are right is intolerance.
You may be right. I'm curious: what would you say to those people who were denied marriage licenses because one partner was white and the other black?
That's NOT what this debate is about, I'm discussing tolerance. I am taking no position on the state issuing or not issuing marriage licenses or for whom they issue them, at least not here. My personal option on this topic is irrelevant (as in it doesn't matter) to the question of tolerance so I'm not going to discuss it.
Full Stop..
I pray for your enlightenment.
I was poor too, I graduated high school, worked my way though college and got out of the cycle. Don't tell me working doesn't make a difference or that my success was from some stroke of luck. Collage was HARD WORK given that I had to work full time while I went to school full time too. It took 5 years to get my degree, but I managed it. My first professional job was lousy pay, but I worked hard, moved up, made more. I moved and worked in 4 different states to improve my standing, make more money and advance my career. 25 years later, I'm still at it, while the bulk of my peers from high school are still on welfare, living on nearly nothing because it's easy.
My experience wasn't "a stroke of luck" but working towards my goals, none of what I have was just handed to me nor did I steal it, I earned it. I'm not fabulously rich, but I don't live paycheck to paycheck either. But I started with nothing, came from a poor family, was the first to get a college degree. Now I'm sending MY kids to college and they will start out their adult lives BETTER than I did, with more education, more prospects and higher goals. So WHY is this?
I believe the difference is in how I was raised. I was taught that you work hard, earn what you need and don't depend on the government but yourself to provide for your needs. I've had paying jobs nearly constantly since I was 14, earning money, saving for things. I've shoveled you know what on the farm, cleaned toilets, dumped trash, mowed thousands of acres of grass and even managed to work as a software engineer for decades, because that's how I was raised.
I suppose you *could* call it luck that my parents passed that work ethic on to me, that I wasn't born to a family stuck in the cycle of dependence, that I was raised to succeed... However, I believe that it was and is attitude that kept the bulk of my peers "enslaved" in the dependency cycle and not "the man" or "the system being rigged". I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm not saying that some of my peers wouldn't face obstacles I never had too face, but I am saying that how I did it, how I got to where I am, is something that works for the vast majority who try it...
Comparing the moderated market economy of Europe with the quite unfettered one of the US I just simply cannot see the advantage of the latter. Unless of course you happen to have more money than a Detroit mayor could spend in a term.
The mayor of Detroit is a pretty poor example.... That city literally has NO MONEY and is in receivership so I'm not sure the mayor could get a dime for the parking meter from the city...
No, I'm saying that if you're going to profess to follow the teachings of Christ, then don't do the opposite and pretend you're following the teachings of Christ.
I'd like to point out that I didn't bring the Bible into this discussion and I'm not and have not made any claim to the higher moral ground based on my religious views or my interpretations of Christ's teachings. Personally, my view is that it's not any of my business what somebody else does, I have enough trouble with just my life. I'm no better than anybody else on this rock, so I have no place to correct, no authority over, and no responsibility for what others do.
So why do you bring a charge of hypocrisy to this discussion?
I think it is because you realize that the claim that that baker and pizza guy are being intolerant and therefor MUST be brought into submission to YOUR views of what's tolerant is in itself intolerant. Which means those who attempt to force their vision of tolerance really are the intolerant ones and thus hypocrites.
How about we just stop here? Walk away and agree to disagree? Which is, after all, what I'm suggesting those on your side of the debate really should do. Let people be wrong if they insist on it...
So, with that... I'm done debating with you, at least on this subject for now.
Look at what I was saying.... You need the right MIX of these things and not an abundance of them.
You are trying to say that YOU are right and THEY are wrong and should be forced to do what's right. That's intolerance on YOUR part, so there is no need to call the pot black now, just walk out and buy your cake and pizza someplace else...
Come on, it's not that hard to understand....
There's a difference between not being profitable, and not being profitable 'enough'. The Concorde was profitable. It just ran on a thin margin (which got increasingly thinner after 9/11 and after fuel prices went up) and didn't make as much money as conventional subsonic planes.
Which is exactly why we won't build another Concorde. You cannot make (enough) money flying them (or in this case, you can make more if you don't). I don't see that situation changing unless fuel costs fall though the floor, and that's about as like as a snowball not melting in ... Well you know...
Management is ALWAYS to blame, because in the end, they are responsible for everything.
So I'd like to point out that not having the tools in place is a management problem too. This problem seems to be systemic in the industry of software development in general. Few organizations put the thought, and resources necessary into their management processes to give themselves the visibility they need to be effectively managing the system development.
Seriously? Troll much?
Hastert and the Duggar's? Really?
Give it a rest man.