Can be replaced/upgraded to Fedora for free, the similarity is?
I thought one of the purported advantages of Linux was to avoid the Microsoft upgrade cycle? It seems that you've just replaced one upgrade cycle with another more agressive upgrade cycle, totally ignoring the fact that there is a cost to upgrading, even if you pay nothing for the OS.
Arcserve has a DR add on product which allows you to skip the installing the OS section and boot from (I believe) a Windows 2000 Server CD and restore direct form the tape. This is your three step restore as you've noted, and yes, it is much easier and faster. However, Windows doesn't ship with that functionality - Microsoft always seems to have maintained that they ship bare bones backup utils, and leave the advanced stuff to people who are good at writing backup software.
Now, to answer your questions. does ntbackup have all the functionality of a true backup system?
No it doesn't, but it isn't intended to. With it you can back up and restore your system to the state it was at the point of the backup. If you want to get clever with it, you're limited.
Can it have different backup scripts of every other Sunday?
Yes, just depends on what you schedule it to so - it just uses the Windows task scheduler to run it's jobs. It's also scripted from the command line using batch scripts, so you can also add some wrappers around it
What about holiday exceptions?
No - or at least it depends on the schedule.
Can it backup machines on the network with a client installed?
It can backup files, but doesn't do system state. It's pretty crude for doing over the network backups - it can be done, but I wouldn't really want to restore one (unless it's just data, no OS stuff).
What about type rotation? Can it keep a session database of different backup tapes that I can access without loading the set?
It has some pretty basic tape management and rotation functions, certainly not on a par with ArcServe or Backup Exec.
I have found the ntbackup a very poor utility for which it is named.
It's absolutely fine for very small sites, but as soon as you want something that's manageable, it's really better to go for a Backup Exec or ArcServe
No, it stores them in a backup archive - much like tar does on Unix based systems. NTBackup can still be used to restore this backup archive and get back to the exact state you were at the time of the backup. I'm not sure why you're having such a difficult time understanding this.
That's not how NTBackup works. It backs up all the information necessary to restore your system to the EXACT state it was at the time of the backup. In order to restore it, you must first install the OS (and only the OS) so that it can read the tape/file. No, it's not a bootable copy - but then it's never been intended to be (and NTBackup has been around for a long time - circa 1994). The supported way to recover your system from backup it to reinstall the base OS, then restore the file system & system state from the backup media, overwriting the operating system you are using at the time. This is how you recover a Windows NT based system - it's been done many times before. This is how you back up your system. Backups aren't bootable in the Windows environment, but are fully recoverable.
You just need to get your head around the Windows way of doing it. You can still make full backups of the system that are sufficient to restore to the exact state at the time of backup. Regardless of what your mythical MS staff might say.
There certainly is a problem here, but I don't know what it is. Microsoft's behavior is outrageous. The average user has no way to back up the OS to another partition on the drive or to CD.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? You're making an issue out of something that isn't even an issue. Start...All Programs...Accessories...System Tools...Backup. Use the backup utility to backup all your data to tape or to another partition (I don't think you can go directly to CD - but in this case you to disk then to CD).
What is DR?
Disaster Recovery. i.e. your system dies for some reason, be it hardware failure or catastrophic software failure.
Please tell me how to do a full backup using software that comes with the retail Windows XP CD. It's impossible, right? If it is impossible, that's outrageous
It's not impossible. Start...Programs..Accessories...System Tools...Backup. Backup the file system & the System State. That is a FULL system backup, that allows you to restore THAT SYSTEM in the event of a failure. It is not intended to allow you to restore that backup to multiple machines.
RIS comes with Windows 2000 Server, it doesn't make a full CD backup, it makes a full IMAGE and allows you to deploy that image to multiple machines.
You started this article asking about imaging software, now you're talking about backups. Which is it? Backups or images? If you want a full backup, use Windows Backup. If you want an image, use RIS or Ghost.
The reason he's confused is this statement in the question: "If you don't have experience with Microsoft operating systems, you may find this amazing, but it is true; Microsoft supplies no method of backing up and restoring fully operational copies of Windows 2000 and Windows XP." Actually you can, just not to multiple machines - it's for DR only. That's why everyone has got the wrong idea from your post.
How's this? If you deploy an image using the Microsoft tools (RIS) and you have a problem, they will support you. If you deploy an image using a third party tool (let's use Ghost as an example) and you have a problem, guess who supports you? Symantec. Of course theres no Microsoft support for the third party imaging tools, they don't write them. If you've got a problem with the imaging software, take it up with the manufacturer. Microsoft will still support the OS, just not the deployment method.
The problem with your Slashdot question was the wording you used - you said things like Windows doesn't allow you to do a full backup of your system, which is total nonsense. If the question was just "What software do you use to deploy Windows images?" you would have got far more useful responses. As it is, people (including me) focused on the glaringly obvious inaccuracies in your statements.
Microsoft provides NO support for making drive images. All the software that makes drive images has problems. Part of the problems may be that there is NO support from Microsoft. These are third-party tools, and they are NOT supported.
Yes they do - and I've pointed this out to you in other responses to you. If you want to make an image with Microsoft software, you use RIS. It has a tool called riprep that is used to make the image. Also, Microsoft will support you building images using other software, provided you use the Microsoft provided sysprep tool to prepare the machine first (not to image it, just to prepare it to be imaged).
There are NO misconceptions. The Slashdot article asks about your experience with drive imaging tools.
...which is covered in the Technet section on deploying Windows XP. You have some major misconceptions, in that you actually don't understand how you deploy Windows workstations with an image. I've pointed to you to a great wealth of information about how you do it, and you still insist that you're right.
Once again, you haven't read your own information. The article you pointed to indicates that in fact Microsoft do support imaged based systems, provided you use Sysprep. From the policy statement you linked to:
"Microsoft does not provide support for computers on which Windows XP is installed by duplication of fully installed copies of Windows XP. Microsoft does support computers on which Windows XP is installed by use of disk-duplication software and the System Preparation tool (Sysprep.exe)."(emphasis mine).
The fact that you wanted to do it with Backup is not a method anyone even recommends, and is totally the wrong way to do it. There are right ways to do it and wrong ways. If you do the wrong way, Microsoft won't support you. If you do it the right way, they will. This isn't that hard to understand.
Which I just addressed - RIS, Ghost, Altiris. However, you need to be aware that running sysprep is an important part of the process. Your original post was very unclear, you were saying how Microsoft doesn't support full backups of systems. I've pointed out in many replies to you and others that there is a way to do it.
I didn't say sysprep did imaging, I said provided you ran it to remove the domain specific information. Imaging is addressed in one of my other (many) posts in this topic.
Did you restore the system state? That should have restored all your settings, including drivers and extension bindings. You only really need to do install basic OS (no patches), then restore from the backup, overwriting the system files you're using to run the restore and overwriting the system state. That should get you to exactly where you were when the backup was run. Should take about 1 to 1.5 hours
You've got multiple options. If you're running Active Directory you can use RIS to grab the image and then deploy it to multiple machines. The advantage with this method is that you can deploy the same image to multiple different bits of hardware, provided the have the same HAL, and you include all the drivers in the image source. It's pretty easy to do. Otherwise you go to third party products - Altiris, Ghost, not sure if Zen Works has anything to deploy images. Even if you're not in an AD, you could still set up a single AD machine to function as a RIS server to just deploy the image from.
Sysprep does NOT deploy anything, even though Microsoft says it does.
Where? Sysprep is the tool for preparing machines for imaging - I can't recall Microsoft claiming that it deploys anything. Even the documentation says "The Windows System Preparation (sysprep) tool prepares a PC's hard disk for delivery to the end users". (Emphasis mine). Windows 2000/2003 Server provides RIS which is used for the deploying bit of things. Or you can use Ghost, or Altiris, or some other third party deployment product.
You are correct, see many of my other posts in this thread where I detail the imaging method. If you're doing a large rollout, you can these days do it all entirely without third party software - only MS. Also, provided you use a volume license key version of Windows, you don't have to worry about hardware changes upsetting activation. You can also restore images to hardware that has the same HAL, even if the other hardware has changed, provided you included a location for the drivers in the image. So the "keying" you refer to above isn't necessarily a problem.
Jesus, do we have to do all your research for you. You show up on Slashdot posting totally incorrect information, and don't even have the common decency to do some basic research before you turn up.
Here are the Windows XP deployment tools, including Sysprep.
Here is the Windows XP deployment section of Technet. I suggest you read it, as it will clear up a lot of your misconceptions. You might even learn something
The reason you need to install windows is so you've got something to read the tape with. Unfortunately, this is necessary in a Windows environment, no matter whether you say it shouldn't be needed. It is. It's a fact of life. Doing this, you restore the entire filesystem and system state over the top of the one you just installed (which you can do, and I didn't make clear) and you get to the point where the backup was made i.e Full restore
What applications have you needed to reinstall - I've yet to come across any?
Of course it can. That's how you restore Windows in the event of a hardware failure, or if the OS decides to dies because of file system corruption. If you're trying to restore to alternate hardware, then you're right - but then that's the wrong approach. See some of my other posts for details about what you're doing wrong - and you are doing it wrong if you can't restore Windows.
If Microsoft tech support personnel have verified this, you must have either KB article numbers, or support call numbers. Care to provide them?
Basically, you've got the experience of thousands of Windows admins against you on this one.
Seems that the original article submitter is a little confused about what he's trying to do. Is he trying to restore a backup of a system, or is he trying to make images to deploy to other systems? Windows ships with a utility that backs up the system, either to tape or to file. These can be used to make full DR backups, but they can only really be restored to identical hardware. To restore the backup, Windows first needs to be installed (only Windows, no apps). Then the restore is done - filesystem & system state. Then a reboot, and you're back to where you were when the backup was run. How do you think Windows admins backup their servers?
If he wants to make images, Microsoft supports this as well. They ship a thing called RIS with Windows 2000 Server that lets you deploy images to hardware using PXE boot. You can deploy the images to any piece of hardware that has the same HAL, other drivers just need to be included in the image. A mini setup runs once the image has been restored that redetects hardware, and installs drivers for those bits that are new. The only thing is that you have to remove the domain specific information before you create the image - and Microsoft provides a tool to do this called sysprep (and also riprep).
Really, this is basic stuff, and should be pretty easy to figure out if some research is done. Still, why research when you post an article to Slashdot and appear an utter fool?
Cause it's almost exactly the opposite of the experience we have in the real world. So, to recap:
You can make backups of a system using Windows Backup, which is included with the operating system. These backups are not intended for being restored to another hardware platform. To restore the backup, all you need to do is install the same version of Windows, then restore the backpu, including the system state. You can make images of Windows systems, provided you use sysprep to remove the domain specific information. These images can be restored to any hardware platform with the same HAL (so if it's an ACPI BIOS, then the target platform must be as well). Other hardware will be detected during the mini setup that runs after you restore the image. You can include extra drivers so you can have one image for multiple machines.
Slashdot Mirror
I thought one of the purported advantages of Linux was to avoid the Microsoft upgrade cycle? It seems that you've just replaced one upgrade cycle with another more agressive upgrade cycle, totally ignoring the fact that there is a cost to upgrading, even if you pay nothing for the OS.
Ever bought a "corporate desktop" machine? If you're buying Dell machines, guess what video card you're likely to get?
Nvidia
Or Wordpad (write.exe) which is built in. It quite happily handles Unix-style link breaks.
Now, to answer your questions.
does ntbackup have all the functionality of a true backup system?
No it doesn't, but it isn't intended to. With it you can back up and restore your system to the state it was at the point of the backup. If you want to get clever with it, you're limited.
Can it have different backup scripts of every other Sunday?
Yes, just depends on what you schedule it to so - it just uses the Windows task scheduler to run it's jobs. It's also scripted from the command line using batch scripts, so you can also add some wrappers around it
What about holiday exceptions?
No - or at least it depends on the schedule.
Can it backup machines on the network with a client installed?
It can backup files, but doesn't do system state. It's pretty crude for doing over the network backups - it can be done, but I wouldn't really want to restore one (unless it's just data, no OS stuff).
What about type rotation? Can it keep a session database of different backup tapes that I can access without loading the set?
It has some pretty basic tape management and rotation functions, certainly not on a par with ArcServe or Backup Exec.
I have found the ntbackup a very poor utility for which it is named.
It's absolutely fine for very small sites, but as soon as you want something that's manageable, it's really better to go for a Backup Exec or ArcServe
No, it stores them in a backup archive - much like tar does on Unix based systems. NTBackup can still be used to restore this backup archive and get back to the exact state you were at the time of the backup. I'm not sure why you're having such a difficult time understanding this.
You just need to get your head around the Windows way of doing it. You can still make full backups of the system that are sufficient to restore to the exact state at the time of backup. Regardless of what your mythical MS staff might say.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? You're making an issue out of something that isn't even an issue. Start...All Programs...Accessories...System Tools...Backup. Use the backup utility to backup all your data to tape or to another partition (I don't think you can go directly to CD - but in this case you to disk then to CD).
What is DR?
Disaster Recovery. i.e. your system dies for some reason, be it hardware failure or catastrophic software failure.
It's not impossible. Start...Programs..Accessories...System Tools...Backup. Backup the file system & the System State. That is a FULL system backup, that allows you to restore THAT SYSTEM in the event of a failure. It is not intended to allow you to restore that backup to multiple machines.
RIS comes with Windows 2000 Server, it doesn't make a full CD backup, it makes a full IMAGE and allows you to deploy that image to multiple machines.
You started this article asking about imaging software, now you're talking about backups. Which is it? Backups or images? If you want a full backup, use Windows Backup. If you want an image, use RIS or Ghost.
The reason he's confused is this statement in the question: "If you don't have experience with Microsoft operating systems, you may find this amazing, but it is true; Microsoft supplies no method of backing up and restoring fully operational copies of Windows 2000 and Windows XP." Actually you can, just not to multiple machines - it's for DR only. That's why everyone has got the wrong idea from your post.
The problem with your Slashdot question was the wording you used - you said things like Windows doesn't allow you to do a full backup of your system, which is total nonsense. If the question was just "What software do you use to deploy Windows images?" you would have got far more useful responses. As it is, people (including me) focused on the glaringly obvious inaccuracies in your statements.
Yes they do - and I've pointed this out to you in other responses to you. If you want to make an image with Microsoft software, you use RIS. It has a tool called riprep that is used to make the image. Also, Microsoft will support you building images using other software, provided you use the Microsoft provided sysprep tool to prepare the machine first (not to image it, just to prepare it to be imaged).
...which is covered in the Technet section on deploying Windows XP. You have some major misconceptions, in that you actually don't understand how you deploy Windows workstations with an image. I've pointed to you to a great wealth of information about how you do it, and you still insist that you're right.
"Microsoft does not provide support for computers on which Windows XP is installed by duplication of fully installed copies of Windows XP. Microsoft does support computers on which Windows XP is installed by use of disk-duplication software and the System Preparation tool (Sysprep.exe)."(emphasis mine).
The fact that you wanted to do it with Backup is not a method anyone even recommends, and is totally the wrong way to do it. There are right ways to do it and wrong ways. If you do the wrong way, Microsoft won't support you. If you do it the right way, they will. This isn't that hard to understand.
Which I just addressed - RIS, Ghost, Altiris. However, you need to be aware that running sysprep is an important part of the process. Your original post was very unclear, you were saying how Microsoft doesn't support full backups of systems. I've pointed out in many replies to you and others that there is a way to do it.
I didn't say sysprep did imaging, I said provided you ran it to remove the domain specific information. Imaging is addressed in one of my other (many) posts in this topic.
Did you restore the system state? That should have restored all your settings, including drivers and extension bindings.
You only really need to do install basic OS (no patches), then restore from the backup, overwriting the system files you're using to run the restore and overwriting the system state. That should get you to exactly where you were when the backup was run. Should take about 1 to 1.5 hours
You've got multiple options. If you're running Active Directory you can use RIS to grab the image and then deploy it to multiple machines. The advantage with this method is that you can deploy the same image to multiple different bits of hardware, provided the have the same HAL, and you include all the drivers in the image source. It's pretty easy to do. Otherwise you go to third party products - Altiris, Ghost, not sure if Zen Works has anything to deploy images. Even if you're not in an AD, you could still set up a single AD machine to function as a RIS server to just deploy the image from.
Where? Sysprep is the tool for preparing machines for imaging - I can't recall Microsoft claiming that it deploys anything. Even the documentation says "The Windows System Preparation (sysprep) tool prepares a PC's hard disk for delivery to the end users". (Emphasis mine). Windows 2000/2003 Server provides RIS which is used for the deploying bit of things. Or you can use Ghost, or Altiris, or some other third party deployment product.
You are correct, see many of my other posts in this thread where I detail the imaging method. If you're doing a large rollout, you can these days do it all entirely without third party software - only MS. Also, provided you use a volume license key version of Windows, you don't have to worry about hardware changes upsetting activation. You can also restore images to hardware that has the same HAL, even if the other hardware has changed, provided you included a location for the drivers in the image. So the "keying" you refer to above isn't necessarily a problem.
Here are the Windows XP deployment tools, including Sysprep.
Here is the Windows XP deployment section of Technet. I suggest you read it, as it will clear up a lot of your misconceptions. You might even learn something
What applications have you needed to reinstall - I've yet to come across any?
The trouble was all the FUD that he posted with it - Windows can't restore from Backup for example - that's just bullshit.
If Microsoft tech support personnel have verified this, you must have either KB article numbers, or support call numbers. Care to provide them?
Basically, you've got the experience of thousands of Windows admins against you on this one.
Windows ships with a utility that backs up the system, either to tape or to file. These can be used to make full DR backups, but they can only really be restored to identical hardware. To restore the backup, Windows first needs to be installed (only Windows, no apps). Then the restore is done - filesystem & system state. Then a reboot, and you're back to where you were when the backup was run. How do you think Windows admins backup their servers?
If he wants to make images, Microsoft supports this as well. They ship a thing called RIS with Windows 2000 Server that lets you deploy images to hardware using PXE boot. You can deploy the images to any piece of hardware that has the same HAL, other drivers just need to be included in the image. A mini setup runs once the image has been restored that redetects hardware, and installs drivers for those bits that are new. The only thing is that you have to remove the domain specific information before you create the image - and Microsoft provides a tool to do this called sysprep (and also riprep).
Really, this is basic stuff, and should be pretty easy to figure out if some research is done. Still, why research when you post an article to Slashdot and appear an utter fool?
Cause it's almost exactly the opposite of the experience we have in the real world. So, to recap:
You can make backups of a system using Windows Backup, which is included with the operating system. These backups are not intended for being restored to another hardware platform. To restore the backup, all you need to do is install the same version of Windows, then restore the backpu, including the system state.
You can make images of Windows systems, provided you use sysprep to remove the domain specific information. These images can be restored to any hardware platform with the same HAL (so if it's an ACPI BIOS, then the target platform must be as well). Other hardware will be detected during the mini setup that runs after you restore the image. You can include extra drivers so you can have one image for multiple machines.