"Companies, especially recruiters and b2b contractor shops, want fresh graduates"
No they don't. Even entry-level positions have been demanding 3-5+ years of experience. Anything interesting is 10+ years. Firms have constanlty been moving the bar upwards in terms of what they're demanding in terms of after-graduation experience since the 2001 collapse.
From what I've seen, hiring of domestic grads has been minimal in the past decade. I don't know why people say that IT careers end at 35 -- for the past decades worth of grads, they mostly weren't even able to begin. Top grads from top schools can send out hundreds of resumes and not even receive the courtesy of a response. Employers immediately jump to the guest worker queues, even though they're being hit with thousands of applications for the positions.
"but COMP SCI majors only work for 150K+ would laugh at you for offering anything less so as consequence company needing ordinary developers cant recruit any reasonable amount of female workers even after reducing requirements to bare minimum"
Average starting salary for the 40% of UCB or Cornell graduates that manage to find employment, out of their CS/IT/Math programs, is only around $80k. In some of the highest cost of living centres in the United States.
$150k is wildly unrealistic for a CS major. Most don't even achieve that after decades on the job.
As for 'basic level of skill', I certainly hope you're not giving coding tests on interviews. Nobody, not even geek developers, walk around with all of the minutae of syntax and libraries for every language in their head. If they made it through a CS degree, chances are, they're perfectly qualified for your position.
CS students and CS departments can't do anything to attract more female students. The problem is that the industry has been dominated, lock, stock and barrel, by foreigners on guest worker visas and green cards. If females wanted to experience Indian culture and be assaulted by the stench of curry all day, they'd move to Calcutta. Nobody is going to study CS degrees, especially females, as long as the industry is so dysfunctional in terms of hiring domestic talent. Females know better than to place their career hopes on an industry that only hires often 1 in 50, 1 in 200, even 1 in 1000 applicants (ie: Google), or worse metrics at other firms.
If the industry wants more females, it needs to start treating everyone with a significant amount of more respect.
Official "party line" of Google perhaps, but Google receives so many resumes each year that it would be humanly impossible to actually find the best. After all, only 1 in 1000 are actually hired for their softeng positions, and I highly doubt they do thorough screenings on the other 999 people. Tons of geniuses fall through the cracks at Google, or are otherwise rejected by their very dysfunctional hiring system.
Very well put, domestic females see that top grads (of both genders) can send out hundreds, sometimes thousands of resumes, not even to receive the courtesy of responses from employers who are constantly in the media claming a need for guest workers. Logically, they refuse to have anything to do with this racket and an industry which goes around claiming that top US grads are 'unqualified' despite being some of the smartest STEM students in the world.
In case people haven't seen this, here are some myths and facts about tech employment which rightfully should scare domestic people, men and women, away from studying STEM subjects:
Tech Employment Myths and Facts
Myth: Good tech employees are hard to find, interview, and hire.
Fact: The resume queues of most firms are chock full of highly motivated and qualified individuals looking to do the jobs that are thrown at them.
Myth: There’s a shortage of engineers and other STEM personnel.
Fact: The United States has twice the number of STEM personnel unemployed as it has actually working in STEM jobs. STEM-trained individuals are often forced to perform low-value clerical and administrative tasks that, if a shortage existed, could be offloaded to other personnel with little or no STEM training.
Myth: Tech skills become obsolete six months after a person hasn’t used them or isn’t in school.
Fact: Not true at all, most tech skills are not of the type that become obsolete or forgotten. An individual who hasn’t used a particular skill for a long time may need a short period to refamiliarize themselves with the particular skill. No different than someone who has not swung a golf club for a few months, or taken a summer break from the winter recreational activity of skiing. Even a highly experienced individual may have to spend a significant amount of time learning how their existing skill relates to the new employers' business or technical environment. There is no such thing as "hitting the ground running" in tech.
Myth: New CS grads from US universities don’t know how to code. I give them coding tests in interviews and they don’t even know what libraries to use! I have no choice but to hire the foreigners because they do!
Fact: Coding skills are an integral part of all CS curricula at US schools. But since the field is so vast, individuals cannot be expected to remember all the minutae involving syntax, libraries, etc. Often ‘foreign’ candidates have been coached on interview techniques by company insiders, or have been taught “coding” in the so-called ‘rote memorization’ fashion which is great for recitation, but horrible for creativity.
Myth: Engineering and CS grads are anti-social people, not good workers for my business.
Fact: CS grads come in all shapes, sizes, and levels of social skills. Without calling them up and interviewing them, you cannot really tell.
Myth: Engineering and CS/IT employees are “cost centres” of my business because they do not generate revenue nor profit.
Fact: Try generating any profit without using computers or without having any engineered product to sell. Think about that for a while.
Myth: One can judge, “on the face of a resume”, whether a person is qualified for a position.
Fact: Resumes, being text documents, cannot possibly embody all of the skillsets and personal attributes of an individual. The only way of determining qualifications in most cases, for an individual who has the requisite degrees, is to actually have an individual in for an interview. Especially in IT, where many skills, thought to be trivial, are not typically placed on a resume, or an individual has acquired significant experience in an area due to personal projects.
Myth: Guest workers save my business money, they work for cheap, and when they get sick, I can deport them instead of paying huge health insurance claims.
The "200 resumes" part is a giant problem. Females, perhaps being smarter than men, know to avoid situations where the chances of success are 1 in 200 (or even less, if you throw a hissy fit and refuse to hire anyone from the stack!).
A lot of this is caused by the excess people in the market because of the H-1B visa and the use of guest workers when America has no shortage of highly skilled STEM graduates that are capable of filling all of the positions that are available.
Indeed, the hiring decisions are being made by people with no IT background, and they usually go for the Indian H-1B's, or outsourcing firms dominated by the same. H-1B has been a giant setback to efforts to achieve greater societal inclusion in the tech industry. Low wages paid in the tech industry drive out bright talent as well. If females are smarter than males, they certainly are smart enough to avoid the industry that has been in a significant long-term decline in the USA, in favour of jobs that actually pay well.
Giant elephant in the room is the H-1B visa, and out of control guest worker infestation of US tech workforces. Most H-1B's are Indian nationals who are hired only because they are cheap. Hiring rates out of some of the top US schools, such as Cornell and UC Berkeley, of US best and brightest graduates, are less than 40%. Even class valedictorians often find it takes years to find a job after graduation. Most tech workforces are devoid of domestic tech hires made after the 2001 crash.
The industry was making great strides in the 1990s to become more representative, and to employ greater numbers of black people, women, and other individuals. Engineers were provided with proper assistants and secretarial help, typically intelligent young women. H-1B set this back, not only ruining job prospects for American engineers (including sidelining some of the top quality talent because firms don't want to ante up the premium bucks), but also setting back the prospect of representative workplaces.
And don't even get me started on how intimidated a typical WASP American female will feel in a typical Silicon Valley or NYC curry den of software development, where Indian H-1B guest workers definitely do not treat women as their equals. Also, benefits, often of significant value to women, such as work-life balance, maternity, flex time, etc., have been slashed dramatically as the result of the H-1B invasion and a job market that is unilaterally unbalanced in favour of employers.
Don't know where you get your data from, but it was 90%+ WASPs at the top 20 school I attended for EE/CS. And IEEE events, again, were mostly WASPs (what a derogatory term, BTW, no surprise that a H-1B promoting bullshitter like yourself would use it....I should start calling you a Paki..how'd you like that???)
"They do, most applicants are worthless crap which is why they don't get an interview"
How would you or anyone even know this if firms don't even bother to interview? Use your fucking brain you sack of shit.
See how full of shit you are? You're nothing but a H-1B loving bullshit spreader. Go back to India you where open defecation is an accepted part of life. Rakish, lol, synonym for Indian faggot.
They're not looking at the resumes. That's the problem. Resume queues at Silicon Valley tech firms mostly are directed straight to/dev/null. >1000 resumes received for each hire at Google, for instance. And other firms are in very similar positions. Unless you were a previous intern, or have an open source resume a mile long, forget about it.
The surveys show very high unemployment and very little new grad hiring in the past decade. And fifty events, lol, you're such a bullshitter. DIdn't you say you live in NY?
No I don't know that (but its no surprise that a H-1B pushing bullshitter like yourself would resort to calling people names). Nobody bothers to interview or test me to apply that label.
If firms were interviewing qualified domestic candidates who applied, and treating them in good faith, then I'd have no problem with the H-1B visa. But it is quite clear that they're not bothering to do that. Silicon Valley tech employers are absolutely hooked on H-1B labour to the extent that even top grads can spend years unemployed before they receive so much as the 'time of day' from an employer. Do the math; no expansion of the tech sector in over a decade, record numbers of Americans studying STEM in the late 1990s. A million H-1B's admitted to the country. Massive numbers of new grads and experienced people must be displaced because of the insanity of the H-1B visa and its deletrious effect on the industry.
Actually I was referring to the various IT programs at UCB, including, but not limited to, EE, CS, EECS, etc. Can't even show a verified >40% employment rate with their surveys.
And firms don't even bother responding to the top applicants, so how can you say that there's an intelligence factor involved? If they were getting interviewed and rejected, fine. But the firms don't even bother to do interviews.
Signing bonuses? Sheer amount of money? Surely you speak in jest. Such signing bonuses or salaries aren't showing up in the salary surveys of the top schools.
"I on the other hand know people who make those hiring decisions and they want anyone who is qualified."
Then they simply need to open their resume queues and start treating the stream of applicants (as you put it, hundreds sometimes) in good faith. No H-1B's required. Simply treat the domestic applicants in good faith, call the ones up who are qualified for interviews, and the rest should fall into place. American STEM grads, mostly locked out of the industry for the past decade, are getting a little sick and tired of people like you spreading lies and bullshit simply to advance a H-1B pushing agenda.
Young American's aren't getting offers (only the H-1B's generally), so its a pretty moot debate. Top grads can submit hundreds, sometimes thousands of resumes and receive very little recognition of their skills in the industry.
Only Americans left in the industry, for the most part, are those between 35 (ie: hired in the 1998-2001 era), and 45-50.
Basically in the SFBay area, you don't have Americans having kids anymore. The under 35 crowd has mostly been locked out of the tech sector as firms haven't hried domestic applicants in a decade (or even bothered to interview many of them). The H-1B's that were imported, of course, tend to be single men. The tech industry is basically destroying its 'seed corn' by using H-1B's, and suppressing salaries so severely for America's best and brightest that they can't afford to create the next generation of techies.
BTW, the STEM schools are full of WASP types. Despite all the propoganda to the contrary, WASP Americans are still studying engineering and Computer Science in droves. Except they usually end up hitting a brick wall when it comes time to get that first job out of school because their resumes don't even receive good faith consideration by the employers due to all the H-1B's.
You "hear" this from "every top company" because its the same lies and bullshit they've been peddling for years trying to score more H-1B visas.
Top grads can send their resumes out to hundreds of firms in the Valley and not even receive so much as the courtesy of a response from the employers. Hardly an industry looking for "enough qualified people".
Just look at the UC Berkeley employment surveys -- they can't even verify more than 40% of their graduating classes employed. Hardly a sign of any significant demand for qualified individuals, and UCB is already quite selective in just who they let into their school.
Most firms won't take people with less than 5 years experience either, especially if they're domestic (read: have a higher salary expectation). The result: basically impossible for new talent to enter the industry short of some sort of voodoo magic.
The guy is not lazy. The jobs simply do not exist for Americans in that particular field, or even in the industry more generally. Why do you and people like you persist in perpetuating the myth that there are jobs in engineering or IT for Americans, when hiring in the past decade has been scarce, and limited almost exclusively to guest workers on the H-1B in most STEM fields?
Slashdot Mirror
"Companies, especially recruiters and b2b contractor shops, want fresh graduates"
No they don't. Even entry-level positions have been demanding 3-5+ years of experience. Anything interesting is 10+ years. Firms have constanlty been moving the bar upwards in terms of what they're demanding in terms of after-graduation experience since the 2001 collapse.
From what I've seen, hiring of domestic grads has been minimal in the past decade. I don't know why people say that IT careers end at 35 -- for the past decades worth of grads, they mostly weren't even able to begin. Top grads from top schools can send out hundreds of resumes and not even receive the courtesy of a response. Employers immediately jump to the guest worker queues, even though they're being hit with thousands of applications for the positions.
One trashy company fighting another, only the lawyers are going to win here.
"but COMP SCI majors only work for 150K+ would laugh at you for offering anything less so as consequence company needing ordinary developers cant recruit any reasonable amount of female workers even after reducing requirements to bare minimum"
Average starting salary for the 40% of UCB or Cornell graduates that manage to find employment, out of their CS/IT/Math programs, is only around $80k. In some of the highest cost of living centres in the United States.
$150k is wildly unrealistic for a CS major. Most don't even achieve that after decades on the job.
As for 'basic level of skill', I certainly hope you're not giving coding tests on interviews. Nobody, not even geek developers, walk around with all of the minutae of syntax and libraries for every language in their head. If they made it through a CS degree, chances are, they're perfectly qualified for your position.
CS students and CS departments can't do anything to attract more female students. The problem is that the industry has been dominated, lock, stock and barrel, by foreigners on guest worker visas and green cards. If females wanted to experience Indian culture and be assaulted by the stench of curry all day, they'd move to Calcutta. Nobody is going to study CS degrees, especially females, as long as the industry is so dysfunctional in terms of hiring domestic talent. Females know better than to place their career hopes on an industry that only hires often 1 in 50, 1 in 200, even 1 in 1000 applicants (ie: Google), or worse metrics at other firms.
If the industry wants more females, it needs to start treating everyone with a significant amount of more respect.
Official "party line" of Google perhaps, but Google receives so many resumes each year that it would be humanly impossible to actually find the best. After all, only 1 in 1000 are actually hired for their softeng positions, and I highly doubt they do thorough screenings on the other 999 people. Tons of geniuses fall through the cracks at Google, or are otherwise rejected by their very dysfunctional hiring system.
Very well put, domestic females see that top grads (of both genders) can send out hundreds, sometimes thousands of resumes, not even to receive the courtesy of responses from employers who are constantly in the media claming a need for guest workers. Logically, they refuse to have anything to do with this racket and an industry which goes around claiming that top US grads are 'unqualified' despite being some of the smartest STEM students in the world.
In case people haven't seen this, here are some myths and facts about tech employment which rightfully should scare domestic people, men and women, away from studying STEM subjects:
Tech Employment Myths and Facts
Myth: Good tech employees are hard to find, interview, and hire.
Fact: The resume queues of most firms are chock full of highly motivated and qualified individuals looking to do the jobs that are thrown at them.
Myth: There’s a shortage of engineers and other STEM personnel.
Fact: The United States has twice the number of STEM personnel unemployed as it has actually working in STEM jobs. STEM-trained individuals are often forced to perform low-value clerical and administrative tasks that, if a shortage existed, could be offloaded to other personnel with little or no STEM training.
Myth: Tech skills become obsolete six months after a person hasn’t used them or isn’t in school.
Fact: Not true at all, most tech skills are not of the type that become obsolete or forgotten. An individual who hasn’t used a particular skill for a long time may need a short period to refamiliarize themselves with the particular skill. No different than someone who has not swung a golf club for a few months, or taken a summer break from the winter recreational activity of skiing. Even a highly experienced individual may have to spend a significant amount of time learning how their existing skill relates to the new employers' business or technical environment. There is no such thing as "hitting the ground running" in tech.
Myth: New CS grads from US universities don’t know how to code. I give them coding tests in interviews and they don’t even know what libraries to use! I have no choice but to hire the foreigners because they do!
Fact: Coding skills are an integral part of all CS curricula at US schools. But since the field is so vast, individuals cannot be expected to remember all the minutae involving syntax, libraries, etc. Often ‘foreign’ candidates have been coached on interview techniques by company insiders, or have been taught “coding” in the so-called ‘rote memorization’ fashion which is great for recitation, but horrible for creativity.
Myth: Engineering and CS grads are anti-social people, not good workers for my business.
Fact: CS grads come in all shapes, sizes, and levels of social skills. Without calling them up and interviewing them, you cannot really tell.
Myth: Engineering and CS/IT employees are “cost centres” of my business because they do not generate revenue nor profit.
Fact: Try generating any profit without using computers or without having any engineered product to sell. Think about that for a while.
Myth: One can judge, “on the face of a resume”, whether a person is qualified for a position.
Fact: Resumes, being text documents, cannot possibly embody all of the skillsets and personal attributes of an individual. The only way of determining qualifications in most cases, for an individual who has the requisite degrees, is to actually have an individual in for an interview. Especially in IT, where many skills, thought to be trivial, are not typically placed on a resume, or an individual has acquired significant experience in an area due to personal projects.
Myth: Guest workers save my business money, they work for cheap, and when they get sick, I can deport them instead of paying huge health insurance claims.
Fact: Guest workers
The "200 resumes" part is a giant problem. Females, perhaps being smarter than men, know to avoid situations where the chances of success are 1 in 200 (or even less, if you throw a hissy fit and refuse to hire anyone from the stack!).
A lot of this is caused by the excess people in the market because of the H-1B visa and the use of guest workers when America has no shortage of highly skilled STEM graduates that are capable of filling all of the positions that are available.
Indeed, the hiring decisions are being made by people with no IT background, and they usually go for the Indian H-1B's, or outsourcing firms dominated by the same. H-1B has been a giant setback to efforts to achieve greater societal inclusion in the tech industry. Low wages paid in the tech industry drive out bright talent as well. If females are smarter than males, they certainly are smart enough to avoid the industry that has been in a significant long-term decline in the USA, in favour of jobs that actually pay well.
Giant elephant in the room is the H-1B visa, and out of control guest worker infestation of US tech workforces. Most H-1B's are Indian nationals who are hired only because they are cheap. Hiring rates out of some of the top US schools, such as Cornell and UC Berkeley, of US best and brightest graduates, are less than 40%. Even class valedictorians often find it takes years to find a job after graduation. Most tech workforces are devoid of domestic tech hires made after the 2001 crash.
The industry was making great strides in the 1990s to become more representative, and to employ greater numbers of black people, women, and other individuals. Engineers were provided with proper assistants and secretarial help, typically intelligent young women. H-1B set this back, not only ruining job prospects for American engineers (including sidelining some of the top quality talent because firms don't want to ante up the premium bucks), but also setting back the prospect of representative workplaces.
And don't even get me started on how intimidated a typical WASP American female will feel in a typical Silicon Valley or NYC curry den of software development, where Indian H-1B guest workers definitely do not treat women as their equals. Also, benefits, often of significant value to women, such as work-life balance, maternity, flex time, etc., have been slashed dramatically as the result of the H-1B invasion and a job market that is unilaterally unbalanced in favour of employers.
Don't know where you get your data from, but it was 90%+ WASPs at the top 20 school I attended for EE/CS. And IEEE events, again, were mostly WASPs (what a derogatory term, BTW, no surprise that a H-1B promoting bullshitter like yourself would use it....I should start calling you a Paki..how'd you like that???)
"They do, most applicants are worthless crap which is why they don't get an interview"
How would you or anyone even know this if firms don't even bother to interview? Use your fucking brain you sack of shit.
See how full of shit you are? You're nothing but a H-1B loving bullshit spreader. Go back to India you where open defecation is an accepted part of life. Rakish, lol, synonym for Indian faggot.
They're not looking at the resumes. That's the problem. Resume queues at Silicon Valley tech firms mostly are directed straight to /dev/null. >1000 resumes received for each hire at Google, for instance. And other firms are in very similar positions. Unless you were a previous intern, or have an open source resume a mile long, forget about it.
The surveys show very high unemployment and very little new grad hiring in the past decade. And fifty events, lol, you're such a bullshitter. DIdn't you say you live in NY?
"You're a moron, you know that right?"
No I don't know that (but its no surprise that a H-1B pushing bullshitter like yourself would resort to calling people names). Nobody bothers to interview or test me to apply that label.
If firms were interviewing qualified domestic candidates who applied, and treating them in good faith, then I'd have no problem with the H-1B visa. But it is quite clear that they're not bothering to do that. Silicon Valley tech employers are absolutely hooked on H-1B labour to the extent that even top grads can spend years unemployed before they receive so much as the 'time of day' from an employer. Do the math; no expansion of the tech sector in over a decade, record numbers of Americans studying STEM in the late 1990s. A million H-1B's admitted to the country. Massive numbers of new grads and experienced people must be displaced because of the insanity of the H-1B visa and its deletrious effect on the industry.
Actually I was referring to the various IT programs at UCB, including, but not limited to, EE, CS, EECS, etc. Can't even show a verified >40% employment rate with their surveys.
And firms don't even bother responding to the top applicants, so how can you say that there's an intelligence factor involved? If they were getting interviewed and rejected, fine. But the firms don't even bother to do interviews.
Signing bonuses? Sheer amount of money? Surely you speak in jest. Such signing bonuses or salaries aren't showing up in the salary surveys of the top schools.
"I on the other hand know people who make those hiring decisions and they want anyone who is qualified."
Then they simply need to open their resume queues and start treating the stream of applicants (as you put it, hundreds sometimes) in good faith. No H-1B's required. Simply treat the domestic applicants in good faith, call the ones up who are qualified for interviews, and the rest should fall into place. American STEM grads, mostly locked out of the industry for the past decade, are getting a little sick and tired of people like you spreading lies and bullshit simply to advance a H-1B pushing agenda.
Young American's aren't getting offers (only the H-1B's generally), so its a pretty moot debate. Top grads can submit hundreds, sometimes thousands of resumes and receive very little recognition of their skills in the industry.
Only Americans left in the industry, for the most part, are those between 35 (ie: hired in the 1998-2001 era), and 45-50.
Basically in the SFBay area, you don't have Americans having kids anymore. The under 35 crowd has mostly been locked out of the tech sector as firms haven't hried domestic applicants in a decade (or even bothered to interview many of them). The H-1B's that were imported, of course, tend to be single men. The tech industry is basically destroying its 'seed corn' by using H-1B's, and suppressing salaries so severely for America's best and brightest that they can't afford to create the next generation of techies.
Yup. Chances are, the American applicants weren't even interviewed.
BTW, the STEM schools are full of WASP types. Despite all the propoganda to the contrary, WASP Americans are still studying engineering and Computer Science in droves. Except they usually end up hitting a brick wall when it comes time to get that first job out of school because their resumes don't even receive good faith consideration by the employers due to all the H-1B's.
You "hear" this from "every top company" because its the same lies and bullshit they've been peddling for years trying to score more H-1B visas.
Top grads can send their resumes out to hundreds of firms in the Valley and not even receive so much as the courtesy of a response from the employers. Hardly an industry looking for "enough qualified people".
Just look at the UC Berkeley employment surveys -- they can't even verify more than 40% of their graduating classes employed. Hardly a sign of any significant demand for qualified individuals, and UCB is already quite selective in just who they let into their school.
Not just the old have it bad -- hiring of US citizen new grad engineers in the tech sector has been scarce.
Haven't seen any evidence of such. The Silicon Valley is practically devoid of the under 35 American citizen tech worker types. No nightlife either.
Most firms won't take people with less than 5 years experience either, especially if they're domestic (read: have a higher salary expectation). The result: basically impossible for new talent to enter the industry short of some sort of voodoo magic.
The guy is not lazy. The jobs simply do not exist for Americans in that particular field, or even in the industry more generally. Why do you and people like you persist in perpetuating the myth that there are jobs in engineering or IT for Americans, when hiring in the past decade has been scarce, and limited almost exclusively to guest workers on the H-1B in most STEM fields?