"How will moderation work through a newsreader? Or will you just killfile the ACs?"
If it were a moderated news group then all postings could be sent to slashdot and then passed on to the news group. When you sign up with/. they could send you a pgp key to sign your posts with. Any post without a key would be an AC. Likewise, when you had some moderator points to spend they could mail you a key (or just insist that you use the web for moderation). Since/. would be doing the actual posting, they could add an X-score header or whatever and your news reader would deal with that however you told it to.
USENET has a number of problems, starting with the picky nature of its users. While it can do HTML to present an opinion in rich text, it is frowned upon.
Suffice it to say that some of us consider that a good thing. How many people here on/. use html for anything special and how many just like to use bold every 10th word. There is however nothing to stop any given Usenet group from allowing or even encouraging html.
In the case of a/. -> Usenet gateway html probably would have to be allowed. I for one would be willing to live with html on that group and maybe even embeded banner adds. in exchange for the advantages of usenet (searchability, scorefiles, speed etc.).
"If someone is going to take the time to compile something like that they should have enough energy to rewrite and paraphrase the whole thing and just cite the sources"
Compiling lists of posts on a given topic can mostly be automated but so far as I know paraphrasing is something computers arn't too good at yet. I submit Bablefish as exibit A! Also, how long would it take a human to go through an entire day of/. and summerize and index each post?
Mailing lists are frequently gatewayed(sp) to Usenet and I often use Deja to search those Lists. That's very convienent because it lets me search many different lists all at once rather than one at a time. It seems like a natural extension of this to build gateways into web based discussion forums as well.
Alternatively, I'll bet one could make money by setting up a web site that collected and searched all known web forums and a provided a Deja like front end. Obviously you would get sued eventually but lets face it, these issues ARE going to be tested in court sooner or later anyway. Hopefully anyone who tries this will incorporate before getting started to provide some liability protection.
but was it really the intention of the DMCA to completely reverse the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992?
Yes, that was its intention. That is why it should pilloried, mocked, fought in court, shredded, and mounted on a pointed stick so that all may see it as an example of what happens when industry and government conspire to take away our freedoms.
Well, I just found this:
The following is the floor debate in the Senate before passage of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It was reported in the Congressional Record on October 8, 1998.
SNIP
Lots of senators had their say but I though this quote was especially telling in light of the NY judge's interpretation of the DMCA.
It thus should be about as clear as can be to a judge or jury that, unless otherwise specified, nothing in this legislation should be interpreted to limit manufacturers of legitimate products with substantial noninfringing uses--such as VCRs and personal computers--in making fundamental design decision or revisions, whether in selecting certain components over others or in choosing particular combinations of parts.
Another quote from this same senator says:
I trust that the Librarian of Congress will implement this provision in a way that will ensure information consumers may exercise their centuries-old fair use privilege to continue to gain access to copyrighted works.
Both of these quotes are from Mr. Ashcroft and the whole thing can be found at:
"Governments can actually do a better job because they need to care about what their voters think."
In theory I'd agree but look at the DMCA and the hearings & discussions leading up to it (try a google search of DMCA and fair use). You'll find all sorts of discussion of the rights of the recording industry, educational institutions, libraries, and many more groups but virtually nothing about the rights and of individuals or the public under the law.
The laws--European and American--clearly state that the copyright holder has the right to dictate the means of playback.
Could you tell me which US law states this? In the RIAA vs. Diamond Rio case the 9th circuit court said
[10] In fact, the Rio's operation is entirely consistent with the Act's main purpose -- the facilitation of personal use. As the Senate Report explains, "[t]he purpose of[the Act] is to ensure the right of consumers to make analog or digital audio recordings of copyrighted music for their private, noncommercial use." S. Rep. 102-294, at *86 (emphasis added). The Act does so through its home taping exemption, see 17 U.S.C. S 1008, which "protects all noncommercial copying by consumers of digital and analog musical recordings, " H.R. Rep. 102-873(I), at *59. The Rio merely makes copies in order to render portable, or "space-shift," those files that already reside on a user's hard drive. Cf. Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, 464 U.S. 417, 455 (1984) (holding that "time-shifting" of copyrighted television shows with VCR's constitutes fair use under the Copyright Act, and thus is not an infringement). Such copying is paradigmatic noncommercial personal use entirely consistent with the purposes of the Act.
Now, in fairness, this case was not about the DMCA since no encription was envolved, but was it really the intention of the DMCA to completely reverse the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992?
FWIW I've seen the same issues as the author of that Winmag article on several customer's machines. In addition, I've run into some really odd mouse problems on two of them. The symptoms were similar to what you would expect of an IRQ conflict but were much more random (ie. I couldn't force the problems to happen like I could with a conflict). It turns out that, among other things, AOL5 replaces mouse.vxd.
If you just need to know if a particular modem is Linux compatable, then head on over to :
http://www.o2.net/~gromitkc/winmodem.html
That said, in my experience, cheap modems in general and winmodems in particular are usually far more troublesome than "real" modems, even on Win95. If you think about it, it makes sense because real modems just look like a serial port to your computer and thus all use the exact same driver. Even on Win, where they may claim to be installing a "driver", all they really do is install an inf file (a text file containing a list of the modems features). The actual program code that operates the thing is exactly the same for literally hundreds of different models. Winmodems however, require their own special drivers (even if they now support Linux) and are inevitbly less well tested. In addition, since the Winmoems tend to be very cheap the manufacturers arn't likely to spend much money updating the drivers (to support new versions of your OS) or fixing bugs so when you upgrade your Windows (say from 98 to NT) or your linux kernel or try out FreeBSD you can expect to buy yet another modem.
The modems I sell to customers generally cost me between $49 - $80 dollars.
But do you think that cracking it and then distributing it all over the net was the best way to accomplish that goal?
Sure, I really don't see any other option. In any case, reverse engineering is legal as is the copying for the purposes of fair use so what exactly did they do wrong?
Why not just take it to court, where the Linux guys would be the plaintiff?
Take what to court? What possible basis would there be for a suit?
But, deCSS and utils based upon it are available for windows, which provide no other purpose but copying.
Yes, but even that's not inherently illegal. Fair use provides for legal copying in a variety of situations. For example it's perfectly legal for me to copy my cds to tape so I can listen to them in the car.
"t's interesting to see that the same people who scream bloody murder when Microsoft fails to reveal its interfaces now want to restrict others' use of their interfaces. "
Did you actually read the origional post? This isn't about hiding the interface but about someone stealing this particular implementation of it.
Why is it more ethical for the FSF to keep its interfaces proprietary or to run worthy programmers out of business than it is for Microsoft to do this?
Nobody said anything about keeping the interface proprietary and this isn't a FSF project.
I agree with a lot of your post but this part has me wondering what planet you've been living on.
" the hardware side - have you been watching the source checkins/checkouts for hardware drivers? Then you'll notice they follow a peculiar pattern - Initial Release (aka, it works, but it's slow). Revision 2 (it's buggy, but faster), and finally Revision 3 (finally get it right).
I don't know about you but I've had far more trouble with closed sourse drivers. As a matter of fact, the most common cause of crashes on NT has been drivers (even some that appear on the HCL). Even on the natoriously unstable Win9x I've seen lots of driver problems and even more problems with the extra utilities etc. that normally are shipped with the drivers.
The reason is that most people in the OSS community a) don't have access to debuggers to catch this stuff earlier and b) Often don't wait and properly engineer their drivers prior to implimentation. That is to say they're impatient.
Many of the updates to open source drivers are to add support for additional devices. Rember that if ten different manufacturers are using the same chipset for a given class of device, chances are that they'll all be supported by just one or two open source drivers.
The result is hundreds of releases of software each day.
What driver has had 100+ releases in any given day?
Some people think this is because we "release early, release often" - I think it's because the programmers didn't know or didn't care enough to make it work correctly the first time and then need to go back and rewrite the code again.
Well, It helps their California case for one thing. A big part of that case is based on the claim that the keys were obtained "Improperly" so it helps if the guy that found the keys is in jail.
"If I want every zip code in America in a nice neat little package on CD-ROM, should I have to pay for it? Yes, about the price of producing the CD. "
The real question is "Is the CD copyrighted?". If not, then I don't see the problem. If enough people want it surely someone will buy a it and distribute copies at a reduced cost.
The reverse would be a lot harder. How do you deal with :
"I clicked on the thing but it didn't work so I clicked on the other thing and it gave me some message"
Would it be smart enough to translate "I didn't do anything" to "I didn't do anything except replace half the software on the system in a lame attempt at fixing it."
There are lots of companies that make tax software, it wouldn't surprise me if one of them decided to release the core program free (maybe even open source) and just sell "form modules" for various tax situations.
If national governments start taxing internet transactions, how long will it be before every state, city, etc. decides that they deserve a cut as well? It could easily get to the point where the cost of complying with all of the various taxes could easily outstrip the taxes themselves.
"He spoke out firmly against an EU proposal that would reclassify electronically delivered software as a service. Software has traditionally been classified as goods."
``It would be sort of stupid to see the same product classified differently whether it's delivered on a CD for example or delivered electronically. It's the same product we believe it should be treated equally and as goods,'' he said. "
Hasn't MS been saying all along that "your not buying the software, your licensing it's use". That sounds a lot more like a service than a product to me.
Maybe someone should pass this link on to the folks responsible for the latest UCITA fiasco:
http://www.badsoftware.com/
I'm sure they'd be interested in MS's change of heart.
Do you have a reference for this info? I don't doubt that most people tend to ignore the costs and dangers of building the plants and mining the materials but I do question your numbers. BTW I've been known to make similar arguements with reguard to electric cars and certain other "polution free" alternatives.
When you have several different cases of people doing "essentially the same thing" with the differences determined by their needs rather than some missing technical breakthrough one really has to question the obviousness of the "invention".
Slashdot Mirror
"Although I guess if you do look at a world from this guy's worldview, all that matters in a society is white heterosexual middle class men."
Don't you think you're reading a bit mutch into his comments?
"How will moderation work through a newsreader? Or will you just killfile the ACs?"
/. they could send you a pgp key to sign your posts with. Any post without a key would be an AC. Likewise, when you had some moderator points to spend they could mail you a key (or just insist that you use the web for moderation). Since /. would be doing the actual posting, they could add an X-score header or whatever and your news reader would deal with that however you told it to.
If it were a moderated news group then all postings could be sent to slashdot and then passed on to the news group. When you sign up with
USENET has a number of problems, starting with the picky nature of its users. While it can do HTML to present an opinion in rich text, it is frowned upon.
/. use html for anything special and how many just like to use bold every 10th word. There is however nothing to stop any given Usenet group from allowing or even encouraging html.
/. -> Usenet gateway html probably would have to be allowed. I for one would be willing to live with html on that group and maybe even embeded banner adds. in exchange for the advantages of usenet (searchability, scorefiles, speed etc.).
Suffice it to say that some of us consider that a good thing. How many people here on
In the case of a
"If someone is going to take the time to compile something like that they should have enough energy to rewrite and paraphrase the whole thing and just cite the sources"
/. and summerize and index each post?
Compiling lists of posts on a given topic can mostly be automated but so far as I know paraphrasing is something computers arn't too good at yet. I submit Bablefish as exibit A! Also, how long would it take a human to go through an entire day of
Mailing lists are frequently gatewayed(sp) to Usenet and I often use Deja to search those Lists. That's very convienent because it lets me search many different lists all at once rather than one at a time. It seems like a natural extension of this to build gateways into web based discussion forums as well.
Alternatively, I'll bet one could make money by setting up a web site that collected and searched all known web forums and a provided a Deja like front end. Obviously you would get sued eventually but lets face it, these issues ARE going to be tested in court sooner or later anyway. Hopefully anyone who tries this will incorporate before getting started to provide some liability protection.
My attempt at a link didn't work but here is the address:
http://www.hrrc.org/senflr.html
Well, I just found this:
SNIP
Lots of senators had their say but I though this quote was especially telling in light of the NY judge's interpretation of the DMCA.
Another quote from this same senator says: Both of these quotes are from Mr. Ashcroft and the whole thing can be found at:"Governments can actually do a better job because they need to care about what
their voters think."
In theory I'd agree but look at the DMCA and the hearings & discussions leading up to it (try a google search of DMCA and fair use). You'll find all sorts of discussion of the rights of the recording industry, educational institutions, libraries, and many more groups but virtually nothing about the rights and of individuals or the public under the law.
Could you tell me which US law states this? In the RIAA vs. Diamond Rio case the 9th circuit court said
Now, in fairness, this case was not about the DMCA since no encription was envolved, but was it really the intention of the DMCA to completely reverse the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992?
1. Some of us don't get the call until after the user has already done the install and is reporting a wide range of problems.
2. Just adding a DUN entry doesn't fix the problems.
3. Some of have seen what IE and Netscape mean when they ask to become the default browser and that's not even close to what AOL5 does.
FWIW I've seen the same issues as the author of that Winmag article on several customer's machines. In addition, I've run into some really odd mouse problems on two of them. The symptoms were similar to what you would expect of an IRQ conflict but were much more random (ie. I couldn't force the problems to happen like I could with a conflict). It turns out that, among other things, AOL5 replaces mouse.vxd.
http://www.o2.net/~gromitkc/winmodem.html
That said, in my experience, cheap modems in general and winmodems in particular are usually far more troublesome than "real" modems, even on Win95. If you think about it, it makes sense because real modems just look like a serial port to your computer and thus all use the exact same driver. Even on Win, where they may claim to be installing a "driver", all they really do is install an inf file (a text file containing a list of the modems features). The actual program code that operates the thing is exactly the same for literally hundreds of different models. Winmodems however, require their own special drivers (even if they now support Linux) and are inevitbly less well tested. In addition, since the Winmoems tend to be very cheap the manufacturers arn't likely to spend much money updating the drivers (to support new versions of your OS) or fixing bugs so when you upgrade your Windows (say from 98 to NT) or your linux kernel or try out FreeBSD you can expect to buy yet another modem.
The modems I sell to customers generally cost me between $49 - $80 dollars.
Sure, I really don't see any other option. In any case, reverse engineering is legal as is the copying for the purposes of fair use so what exactly did they do wrong?
Take what to court? What possible basis would there be for a suit?
Yes, but even that's not inherently illegal. Fair use provides for legal copying in a variety of situations. For example it's perfectly legal for me to copy my cds to tape so I can listen to them in the car.
Did you actually read the origional post? This isn't about hiding the interface but about someone stealing this particular implementation of it.
Nobody said anything about keeping the interface proprietary and this isn't a FSF project.
"what does prosecuting him do for these people?"
Well, It helps their California case for one thing. A big part of that case is based on the claim that the keys were obtained "Improperly" so it helps if the guy that found the keys is in jail.
"If I want every zip code in America in a nice neat little package on CD-ROM,
should I have to pay for it? Yes, about the price of producing the CD. "
The real question is "Is the CD copyrighted?". If not, then I don't see the problem. If enough people want it surely someone will buy a it and distribute copies at a reduced cost.
The reverse would be a lot harder. How do you deal with :
"I clicked on the thing but it didn't work so I clicked on the other thing and it gave me some message"
Would it be smart enough to translate "I didn't do anything" to "I didn't do anything except replace half the software on the system in a lame attempt at fixing it."
There are lots of companies that make tax software, it wouldn't surprise me if one of them decided to release the core program free (maybe even open source) and just sell "form modules" for various tax situations.
It is NOT up to ID to decide what information is ok to take from me without asking. If they want something from me they must ask.
If national governments start taxing internet transactions, how long will it be before every state, city, etc. decides that they deserve a cut as well? It could easily get to the point where the cost of complying with all of the various taxes could easily outstrip the taxes themselves.
"He spoke out firmly against an EU proposal that would reclassify electronically delivered software as a service. Software has traditionally been classified as goods."
``It would be sort of stupid to see the same product classified differently whether it's delivered on a CD for example or delivered electronically. It's the same product we believe it should be treated equally and as goods,'' he said. "
Hasn't MS been saying all along that "your not buying the software, your licensing it's use". That sounds a lot more like a service than a product to me.
Maybe someone should pass this link on to the folks responsible for the latest UCITA fiasco:
http://www.badsoftware.com/
I'm sure they'd be interested in MS's change of heart.
Do you have a reference for this info? I don't doubt that most people tend to ignore the costs and dangers of building the plants and mining the materials but I do question your numbers. BTW I've been known to make similar arguements with reguard to electric cars and certain other "polution free" alternatives.
When you have several different cases of people doing "essentially the same thing" with the differences determined by their needs rather than some missing technical breakthrough one really has to question the obviousness of the "invention".