I used to like Redhat - long ago. Back when 4.2 was the latest version, and the Powertools distro was cheap. It had alpha + sparc + x86 in the one 6 CD set. It had scadloads of useful software (LyX / Gimp (motif!) / gimp (GTK!) / Lesstif / cbb ) . It had some simple but useful
and documented GUI config tools - a simple installer. A semi decent package manager, and a good front end to it (glint)
RANT ON
It all went sour at 5.0 for two reasons. The libc 5 / glibc 2 switch, and another broken compiler. 1st of all, the libc5 compat libraries were not installed by default, and were too old anyway - StarOffice even then had binary problems on Redhat - wanting the current libc5 version. The glibc 2.0.5 version was also unstable - other distros held off longer for stability reasons.
Secondly, they managed to ship a gcc version that failed to compile anything on any cyrix cpu based system. Nice. They also moved their GUI tools to using a snapshot GTK version - and it wasn't replaceable with a subsequent version - needed for tracking the GIMP releases.
5.1 was just as bad. Broken image libraries, non standard file locations, and more. As well as Redhats travesty of a desktop - anyone remember fvwm-95?
When Linux 3rd party binaries become common, some are for Redhat, some are for SuSE. some Debian, some Corel etc, and some target all. Making a binary work on more than one distro is hell - StarOffice is a large example - anything in C++ is another, WordPerfect 8. RPM is not a good package manager - it doesn't handle auto upgrades well, and is widely used in incompatible ways. Try a SuSE or Mandrake RPM in Redhat. Or rather, don't. RPM is fubared, and the only compatibility method is to track Redhats latest and (ahem* greatest) version - and let the rest follow. This is redhats stealth move to monopolise the market for users running Linux - who wish to also run purchased third party prepackaged binaries - such as an Office Suite, DTP package, Industrial quality scalable DB, whatever.
Redhat's shoddy quality control has always been a problem for KDE users, never mind there erratically principled stance against KDE / Qt ( We want a friendly Linux / We won't distribute KDE / We will in Germany, cos our competition do / Its OK now, but we really want you to use our sponsored desktop (GNOME), We'll test the install so much that we don't notice that installing KDE installs Gnome Instead (6.1 - nice bug, in spiffy rushed GUI installer), and we mess the QTDIR variables to point to the wrong Qt to stop you compiling Qt based software) , and we now mass with the C++ compiler and libs needed, for say, C++ opensource, KDE the most prominent example?
In short Redhat claim to be user friendly.
In truth, they have several major faults.
Lack of QA
Poor Technical decisions
Core library and compiler instabilties
Randomly breaking admin tools
Rushing releases
Requiring massive amounts of updates
To summarize - Redhats QA, Compability with outher Linux distros and itself, scheduling, admin tools, packaging system, and software selection suck. (planetary bodies through straws)
What, you don't like being allowed to use someones software they wrote and generously made free? Free for use in GPL programs, under the GPL, and any OSS license under the QPL.
Methinks you are a hypocrite - you want it free to use in your non free work. In short, a parasite.
KDevelop, btw, has app templates for GNOME apps.
As for KDE's programmers attitudes towards GNOMES programmers, who stole whose HTML renderer without attributing copyright, hmm? Hint - look for KDE names in GTKHtml
The beta is quite fast, fairly stable, and rather pretty. It has some problems, notably filemanager stability with JS, Java, and multiple windows, but it does embed its viewers for graphics and text well, is configurable, and renders slashdot, supporting cookies etc. That was of course, the important test;-)
/* Better yet, use Debian's apt-get tool, which automatically solves dependency problems for you. */
Except for Debians extreme obsclesence(sp) and bias towards free software. It takes too long for a.deb to be made. And it doesn't help on most linux systems, since alien isn't to hot on conversion from deb /* What about, "Beat your self with a hammer, and wonder why it hurts?" RPM is telling you that you don't meet dependencies for a reason. Don't be surprised if you ignore what it says and then things don't work. */
How about RPM names its dependencies differently across Linux distros? I have libx installed, but the package names differ so on one distro, it fails with a dependecy warning. Force it with nodeps, it should work. It may not - they may be more incompatible.
Some RPM's cannot be relocated.
Some RPMS from SuSE fail on Redhat, likewise Caldera, likewise TurboLinux etc.
RPM sucks. All it does is allow uninstall. Its dependecy checking is broken.
//Red Hat Linux //1.Download archive. //2.rpm -ivh foo.rpm
3. su to root cos RPM's db is locked 4. read all your failed dependencies 5. Back on net, download dependecies, repeat 6. relocate RPM cos of distributors brain dead defaults (KDE in/usr Really?) 7. force install / no deps install 8. Pray it starts 9. use alien, treat it like a tarball 10. The only complete and easy packaging system is an absence of packaging system, and autoconfed source tarballs with the install replacement that logs where the install puts it all.
RPM is so much fun when you are not using the exact same Linux version as the packager.
I think the difference between python and perl can simply be explained that perl is about getting something done, no matter about how messy or incorrect the method used may be, while python is about doing things correctly 1st time, for later use. Its the difference between grafting OOP into a text processing language or including it from the start.
Theres more than one way to do it, but theres usually one correct and proper way. Python tends to the second part of that, imho. Its also got a more readable and less misused syntax, albeit its use of whitespace is at the other extreme from perl's fit it all into one line with no carraige returns in sight. (if its not like that, your likely not using perl to its tersest extent.)
From someone who has dabbled in both and used neither significantly.
Motif is never a system library on Linux - yet I see static linked binaries aka GPL violations
These apps have also predated LessTif, and what of those which code to Motif 2.1 not 1.0 or 1.2?
Qt is a system library on Corel, Caldera and SuSE linux. Its even used in the Graphical installers i.e. in YaST 2 and Lizard, and in the default, nay only GUI environment supplied (in Caldera \ Corel)
The linking of Qt + GPL'ed code does not break GPL as Qt cannot be considered a derived work merely by linking to it - its a flawed GPL interpretation brought on by the GPLs vagueness on linking In short, hypocrite's, with political views about software freedom to peddle.
Lynx isn't rendering/. too well, this'll be an ugly poorly formatted comment.
GTK is more Open Source? Both are certified as Open Source, both are DFSG compliant. You may call GTK more free, but thats because RMS wants you to call Open Source Free Software and GTK uses the GNU Library GPL.
Both Qt and GTK have bindings - Qt is C++, C (if anyone cares - noone used it with C), Python, Perl, and Qt based apps can be scripted from any DCOP supporting language, even I hear, bash.
Qt Free Edition is X11 only - simply since no one has ported it. It is allowed.
Apps using Qt need not use Qt - GPL is fine, as is BSD, Artistic, MIT, etc - any Open Source license. Shareware / Proprietary is possible by purchasing Qt. If any one bothers about GPL + Qt, just ask about all the Motif based GPL applications, and then call them hypocrites when they defend them.
To get Windows portable software, pay or port, unlike GTK where you can only port it.
It seems that as projects get beyond a certain level of size and or complexity, key developers must meet in real life. Either that, or go entirely Cathedral mode in development. At some point, the lag in discussions etc in net life makes such conferences needed. It sounds like fun as well;-) KDE has had two similar conferences - just prior to the beta series for KDE 1 and also prior to Krash, aka KDE 1.89 Perhaps desktop interoperability should be talked about at these things - get KDE and Gnome developers together in a hacking environment for a while.
Some other large projects like the Gimp could probably get together for a quick conference / bug squashing session - 1.2 is eagerly waited. Any other suggestions for projects that could benefit from these type of meetings?
Now that Qt 2 is free software, under the QPL, will Debian include KDE 2 when it is released, based on Qt 2?
Also, do you feel it is better to keep Linux entirely DSFG free software only, or to include software in some way restricted, such as Pine, Qt 1.x and Netscape?
/* So now "modern" means "Windows"? When did that happen? */
The Mac came out in 1984. He's only 15 years behind the times, and if he can't manage in a GUI by now, he never will manage in a GUI. Sad but true. Its not exactly rocket science.
Frankly Tom, if anyone cares a damn, after reading your posts they won't give a flying fuck. I have looked at ktops sources, added a few minor keyboard shortcuts, and sent it as a diff to the author, but frankly, your repetively pedantic and cretinous whining makes me wonder why I bothered. You obviously are far too set in your ways to bother trying to understand any other form of interface than a terminal and keyboard, or the conveniences they offer to anyone else. Go home, live in ascii land. We don't want you in the modern graphical computing world.
Dammit, that was submit, not preview, and the link got mauled by slashdot. take 2
Hi Tom, If I seem trollish, its just a slashdot atmospheric thing and reading too many comments.
/* Once again we see the problem of doing nothing more than trying to copy Microsoft. That does not make sense to me, and it doesn't seem to make much sense to you, either. But you're doing it anyway, just because Microsoft does, even though it's easy to come up with something more sensible. This stuff is not easier to use than what we already have. It's just different, assuming a different set of prior knowledge. This means that the learning curve is very steep for non-Microsoft people. That's why it's annoying. */
Please replace every occurance of Microsoft in the above with Unix, and you'll see why KDE is the way it is. The target audience of KDE is more familiar with non Unix computing - you are the reverse. Unfortunately, this does put your needs slightly lower on the scale of things to do than the needs of one of potentially 200Million users who have used a Windows or a Windows like system. Or even systems unlike Windows, such as RiscOS, who can still adapt to KDE more than bare Unix. Oh, and the Alt,Ctrl, Menu and ShortCut standard was around before Windows took off, it became quite common in GEM, in character mode DOS applications, in OS/2, across the micro computer industry segment in fact. Like much else, MS copied it and got credit for innovation as a result. Sorry, just showing the historical background out of which the target users of KDE have come, and where it differs from Unix.
/* I don't know what this "minimize" jazz is. Sounds like xterm's mechanism for selecting either the "tiny" or the "unreadable" font. I can't see why close would ever mean something other than iconify. Please don't use this silly "close" word. Use "exit" when you mean exit, and use "iconify" when you mean iconify. Where is the configuration setting to fix this? */
Its a Windowsism, and a Netscapeism (KDE got the idea for toolbarslike it has from Netscape) but it may exist on Macs too. Its seen on a lot of X11 Windowmanagers these days, especially non fvwm based ones which don't put icons on the desktop, since thats where icons representing programs and files go. I regret that that ones probably hard coded, so you'd need to recompile.
/* First of all, I got the idea from one of the random menus down in the left corner. It's got the happycon with the words "rearrange icons" next to it. It looks like a "recycle" glyph. If you simply used words right from the get-go, you'd never have the problem of someone having to look up the meaning of a happycon, because you'd have a word.*/
The one that says, "refresh desktop", in the Utilities menu? Seems consistent usage to me. Its nice to have pictures and text.
/* You should make the default reasonable. */
It is, but just not for you. I think your outside the target audience for the default setting. When looking for a page up / down options, I'd be unpleasantly surprised if it wasn't mapped as it is.
/* Maybe you need to have a "Unix defaults" meta-setup option. */
Create one, and post it the kde-users or kde-devel mailing list, asking for it to be integrated into the CVS version so it be released in Krash, or the betas to follow it.
/* But I'm not allowed to search the info stuff, which has always been my complain about it. And the searches that I can do don't bother to provide useful output. */
Perhaps KDE 2 can search info - I haven't checked that one. You could try Krash, the alpha release on Dec 15, and mail the author of kdehelps replacement with a feature request. Mailing the authors has always worked for me, they seem keen to implement stuff that users want.
/* First of all, it turns out that the program does correctly use my MANPATH if started from the command line. It does not do so when started from kdm(1). That's probably because my user environment wasn't loaded then. */
That may be it, but I'm sure its worked for me using kde or console to boot to. Its probably horribly vendor and release dependent across all the target platforms.
/* You've never heard of "standard part of the operating system" versus "add-on stuff"? What are you, an rpm(1) victim?:-) */
Oops, I'm just used to thinking of everything on the multiple CD's as part of the OS since I started uisng Linux.
/* What address do I send bug reports to? */
The authors email address from the help system should tell you;-) All KDE apps should list the authors in the help file. There is also a centralised bug tracking system, possibly at http://bugs.kde.org/
/* No, no, no, no, no, no! This is what I mean about being disrespectful to Unix users. We have already specified our editing preferences, just as we've specified our manpath, bin path, etc. ^W is one of the most commonly typed editing characters for many of us. And you've made it into something that destroys a program! That's just plain suicidal. Horrible. */
But also convenient, comfortable and changeable. The first two don't apply to you, but they do to me, and many others.
/* While I'm on the subject, you don't seem to pay attention to ^C to interrupt programs. Don't make me find stupid happicons. This is as bad as lynx. ^C means interrupt. */
It means copy, actually. Want a vote on it?;-) Luckily, its changeable. What you want is probably Alt-F4, a direct Windows copy. Again, configurable. Ctrl-C seems to be accepted as a valid setting, though.
/* No, no, no. A THOUSAND TIMES, NO!. Control-C is interrupt current activity. Why would I ever use it be an alternative to the middle button? This is super nonintuitive. I know what ^C does, because I set it up with stty(1). This is so Unix-hostile! */
Middle button? What middle button? (I know;-)) Most PC mice have two, Macs have one. Thats why I like Ctrl-C for Copy, since Emulate-Middle-Button isn't really too great. Its changeable, so its not Unix hostile, just different. You can set a KDE wide keybinding for copy and many others. Just that stty doesn't set KDE, same as KDE doesn't set console apps keybindings.
/* Wrong. If you have something in the space already, and something in your cut buffer, you need to clear it first before you paste. Look at Netscape's ALT-F find command. */
Um, in this case you paste in and then clear out the cruft that was there before, Its not nice, but if works. Just paste at the start, and then delete to the end after, since after the cursor is what was there before.
/* If the program isn't requiring keyboard input, it should use the regular keyboard for its actions, so a slash in kdehelp, etc. You could use Meta-/ or whatever if you were in keyboard input mode already. */
Modal applications seem a little, well, dated. Its why vi has a hard to learn rep, since people aren't used to modes to enter text as opposed to modes to enter commands, searches, and whatever else vi can do. I think Meta / or Ctrl / is the best option here unless you never type /
/* Where? Don't tell me "see the control center". I hate that. I have to search for everything. Why can't we be given a simple but discrete command to type in, or a discrete file name to edit? Why must we always poke around randomly till we find something? */
KWM has an rc file, its ~/.kde/share/config/kwmrc The format is described in KDEhelp, under the section "Getting the most out of KDE" Window Manager (its linked on KDEhelps opening page), and then in the configuration section under the heading kwmrc. All KDE apps have rc files in text format. Its part of the app template, you get it by default.
/* This is completely Unix hostile. I've explained this to you before. I already told the system my preferences. Respect them. */
Sorry, you'll have to run through a final config change to tell KDE your preferences.
/* Sort your WM config to put them over the window that creates them. */
You could just choose manual placement, (in kwmrc ) and get any popup windows to place yourself. Or just replace KWM with WindowMaker, Enlightenment, BlackBox, wmx, flwm, xfwm or any other KDE complaint Window Manager. Or even non compliant, just tell kpanel not to expect KWM, and you can use your window manager of choice. KDE's quite flexible in that regard. If you like fvwm, well, use fvwm. You may have to edit startkde, its not hard to do.
/* This is extremely Unix-hostile. Can you really not make your Windows rewrite without kicking sand in the faces of Unix programmers? This makes no sense. */
Again, you say its hostile. It makes no sense to write another desktop for Unix programmers, already content with their X11 desktop or lack of one. It could be worse - KDE could be less configurable than it already is.
1. Fixed in KDE 1.1.2 Get the latest bugfix version.
2. Help-About works fine. Version 1.0.1 here. KDEopts will be the standard set of options to all KDE apps, like all Xaw/Xlib apps taking geom options. I have never needed to know what KDEopts actually are, nor do I care.
3. See 1
4. Qt 2 has less flicker. KDE 2 will flicker less. Until then, turn the refresh rate down.
5. See 1 again
6. See 1, or don't start from a terminal. Its only debugging output.
7. Its called the tab key, tom.
8. Its on one of those buttons you couldn't touch, tom, not even with the mouse (not that you even tried with the mouse)
9. Your first valid point, and a weak one. You want it dead, does it really matter what signal its sent? It must be absolutely stuffed for you to kill it this way anyway. Sigterm and Sigkill are on the context popup menu.
10. Those are the icons suppliedby the programs running. Kfm has a filing cabinet, Kpanel a big K (its old icon), bash a little console icon, and so on. There are some generic categories, like an X app with an X logo icon, or a program with a gear, which is the default KDE app icon for binary files. Your KDE knowledge shines through, and there are no sunbursts on this screen tom.
11. Sometimes, the name of the program is the commandline tom.
12. Try the cursor keys, tom. Or patch the source to add accelerators like M. You only need add an ampersand to the code, is that too hard?
13. Multiple selections aren't needed. It'd be nice to have, but not essential. I can't see in top(1)'s help screen ? how to do that either.
14. See 13
15. Its on the menu, how much more intuitive can it be?
16. To cancel a selection, press escape. You selected a menu, use it or cancel it.
17. Well done, finally a valid point. Just because you can send many signals to a process doesn't mean you want them all in a list on a menu. Just use Alt-F2, kill SIGNAL PID
18. It may be wrong in places, or not very helpful, but its next to the names of the signals. If they don't know the purpose of a signal, don't send it. Look it up. Sheesh. Oh yeah, theres a bug report section in the help file. Go read it.
19. How often are all these used? how long would a menu be with all these included? Oh, and see 18.
20. Can I do that in top? Its not in the help page from ? So its a feature request. goto the KDE wishlist and add it, or contact the developer.
21. You can restrict the processes shown to all, system, user and own. You can't do what you want in top, afaik.
22. Quit is in the file menu by long standing convention (just as long and arbitrary convention as Emacs / Vi keybindings you keep banging on about). You can directly quit with Ctrl-Q. Its not alt -Q becuase Alt is used to access menus.
23. Another minor bug! Well done. go log it.
24. You would complain if it didn't ask for confirmation. The focus thing is configurable, in the Control Center. Go do so.
25. Thats becase the default choice is abort. read a dialog, why don't you.
As you see, tom is a pedant, who dislikes all GUI's immensely, except the imaginary one that he's designed and implemented in his own mind and one thats most at home on a vt100. Vapourware it isn't, since it would then escape to the real world outside his head.
Point 1 - is being rationalised and reorganised for KDE 2 and by Corel.
Point 2 - Edit is there since thats what find comes under in most GUI's. It makes some sense, just not too much
Point 3 - You seem to confuse Window Manager and Application menues. Closing Windows does not Minimise them. Seems fair enough to me.
Point 4 - In KDE 2
Point 5 - It means refresh / reload, not rearrange icons. Where you got that idea, I don't know. The tooltip tells you what it means
Point 6 - Configrable. Go configure it. Its set to page up/down by defualt. KDE Control Center or Settings-KeyBoard ShortCuts
Point 7 - may be valid.
Point 8 - Use the search tool after ticking all types
Point 9 - Again, an Xism, its just like Xman
Point 10 - may be valid
Point 11 - may be valid, works fine here though
Point 12 - valid, but this is how Xman does it.
Point 13 - may be valid, I see no distinction between locally installed and OS Standard - its installed or its not.
Point 14 - could be
Point 15 - it takes time sure, but it works. I don't see your point
Point 16 - may be valid
Point 17 - Its a keyword search, like, just one word. Pattern matching regexps would seem to be excluded by definition.
Point 18 - valid
Point 19 - valid (KDE 1.x doesn't support reight to left languages, maybe 2 will)
Point 20 - Its assumed you have found what you wanted. Good enough assumption to make, else you'd complain about clearing it for a new search.
Point 21 - Its a bug when you move focus around the elements in the window. Report it.
Point 22 - ^W is a KDE standard binding for close. Change it.
Point 23 - It works fine here, with Ctrl-c to copy
Point 24 - No need
Point 25 - Configurable, though not a good idea. consider typing / anywhere in KDE ever again and getting a find dialog. Or do you mean Ctrl-/ ?
Point 26 - Focus issues are configurable for KWM. See the control center. Focus can be shifted using the keyboard, with Alt-Tab or Shift-Alt-Tab
Point 27 - Ctrl-a, Ctrl-e work. So does del and backspace, etc. So does Ctrl-H Some subset of Emacs bindings, by the look of it, plus some Windows ones.
Point 28 - Their called application modal dialogs. Sort your WM config to put them over the window that creates them.
Point 29 - Its a Window, so its listed as such. Transients simply aren't excluded from the Window list - its a feature.
Point 30 - See 28
KDE's version is prominently displayed in the KDE Control Center, which you may wish to visit to negate many of your above points.
Failing that, rpm -qa | grep kde -
Its probably 1.1 or 1.1.x
Your bitching about lack of man pages is duly noted and ignored.
to find a KDE programs version, go to Help-About. That is one thing common across nearly all GUI's.
Don't blame KDE for Redhats crappy packaging, KDE is by default in/opt/kde, self contained except for Qt.
/* I expect and demand a single, solitary, coherently and seemlessly integrated documentation system for the entire operating system. I expect and demand that every command be documented, and that every user-callable function be documented. */
And come chirstmas, you'll be very disappointed when all your other demands and expectations aren't met. If you expect, well, your just wrong, and if you demand, your ignorant and arrogant, to demand what others do with their copious free time what your unwilling to pay someone to do for you.
/* But it must be ONE SINGLE SYSTEM. */
Bzzt. Wrong. It must appear as one single system which is not the same thing. KDEHelp does this quite nicely (again, your complete ignorance of anything GUI and / or KDE related shines through)
Go back to vt100 land and syntax like line noise.
/* You would never get away with this crap from a real vendor. */
Try paying for your operating system next time, before you whine about vendors not doing what you want.
/* Just have make install generate and install proper manpages in proper. Anything else is wrong. If it's so damned easy, just shut up and do the right thing.*/
man is an inferior doc format than html, so I'm not going to act the format fascist and insist that people waste discspace just to satisfy your perverse pleasures in document formatting.
/* And remember, "elitist" is ignoramus-speak for "competent professional". I'll be happy to don that moniker and eschew its antonym */
Well, you've yet to prove yourself competent in any environment more advanced and recent than that of vt100's , so I think you are quite the example of Unix Elitism. And Not Invented Here syndrome. Your lack of GUI knowledge, in a so called "computer professional" is frightening. I've seen amateur users and even intelligent five year olds with more knowledge of how to use any GUI than you have presented. You just keep saying, waaah, its not a command shell.
/* Anyone who touches a computer is severely handicapped if they can't type */
I said, touch type, so your response is irrelevant. I don't need to touch type to drive a GUI from the keyboard.
/* Stop screwing over those of us who can by choosing a single-bit interface when there's a concerto just waiting to unfold beneath the expert's fingers. */
Don't make us dedicate our lives to learning to use a CLI just for your convenience.
/* You clearly lack the ability to understand why reliance on cascading and nested menus for command execution is fundamentally evil. You can't search them. You can't automate them. You can't ever get any better than the buffoon you were when you first got there. I could write an entire paper on why forcing this moronic model down all our throats is brain-numbing and counter-productive. */
Reliance may be evil. Offering alternatives is not. Much of UI research has been based on finding alternatives to a command line. To those researchers, I am greatful - you have lessened the trivial arcana needed in order to use a computer. KDE can and will be automateable. Try research before spouting crap. Write your paper - post it as a Slashdot article. Refuting it should be trivial.
/* I've looked at your karma */
Was a fulfilling experience? Is slashdot karma any indication of anything other than celebrity name recognition and pandering to the well known biases of the slashdot moderators? Guess again, tom. The answer is no...
/* Go ahead -- waste your life. */
Try and get Tom to have a discussion in any reasonable manner, rather than cherry pick points out of detailed refutations to his FUD. Nice try Tom, your categorised as Arrogant, Ignorant, Troll.
/* Maybe you should reread my original article. One place where the toolkit and/or window mangler people could really help is the slow, stupid, repetitious, non-searchable menu paradigm. If I were to pick one thing after proper documentation, it would be this. Maybe even before. You don't want each program to cope with it. That's the wrong layer. */
Non searchable menus? Big friggin deal. you can remember commandline switches, I'll remember menu placement. Seems theres more standards in menu placements as well, so its really easy.
Things are even helpfully placed in meanfingful groups.
KDE's documentation, btw, is perfectly proper, and if you want man pages, you can generate them yourself from the SGML source. Everyone else can hapily use html, same as always.
/* Please don't come off with this "let them use a 24x80 vt100" noise for Unix users. That's not fair, and it's not what Unix is really about. At all. */
Its a damn good approximation of what Unix is all about. Especially to experienced unix users, who can't get the idea of non touch typing commandline junkies into their heads.
/* This is just another way to tell us we don't matter, that it's ok to ignore us and piss us off, because it's cheaper to take the heat than to do it right. And if that doesn't dissappoint you, I don't know what does. */
Having to wait for Unix to be made user friendly just so as a bunch of die hard Unix elitists won't be upset by the design of something they won't use would dissapoint me. Your critiscism / questions of KDE make it clear youve not had more than trivial experience with it, if any at all.
No Unix I've seen had good user documentation. Programmer and Sysadmin stuff, scattered but there. But not user related stuff, in any quantity.
All OS'es have lousy help documentation. The market in books on computing seems to confirm this.
Unix people will see themeselves mirrored, and hate it. After all, there documentation is our documentation, exposed to the scrutiny of more people. And they don't want someone to say "and what makes yours better, except that we paid for yours?"
Your energy could doubtless be more profitably expended, but like me, you do not remedy this situation to any great extent.
Nice labelling as a Linux apologist, btw, I could be quite easily using *BSD or Solaris x86, or even SCO. Except that the best x86 Unixlike OS is Linux.
HTML is not GUI only. Hit yourself with a cluestick until that fact permeates.
A suggestion : The Rise and Fall of the Unix Elite (And how the apocalypse came) It seems to be self dramatising enough for you.
You are not diminished in any way by the popularisation of Unix. Just don't change, and keep on using Unix, under the interface layers of more casual users.
btw, cavemen used CP/M. Or at least, its users went ug at the the sight of it.
/* Do we really have to listen to this idiocy anymore? It's pure sophistry; or, if you prefer, and artful lie. It serves no useful purpose to propagate the deceipt. */
I've used Unix(tm) Its wildly different to Linux(tm) + GNU + 4GB userland tools...
If you like, Linux is Unix +
To an end user, its still different. Usually better, too.
Nice gratuitous insult, btw. If they disagree, insult them till they shut up. Really does convince someone your right.
/* As for a properly installed and completely integrated online man system, there is absolutely no reason not to do it. It precludes nothing. */
Rather than extend it, fix whats present. Make it useful. Make it readable, comprehensible, and perhaps people will want to add to it for you rather than start from scratch.
/* I can give you a list of incoherent inanities in this regard in any Linux operating system you can name that will make you blanche.*/
Well gee, theres only one Linux OS and many GNU / Linux systems, so if you find multiple Linux OS'e then I'd like one of each, please.
man makes most linux users blanche, btw. Something about the way it was designed and implemented by and for unix programmers.
/* Please stop dodging the issue of carelessness and lack of craftsmanship. Just fix it. It's easy. */
Scratch your own itch... It is free software... No one else cares enough, it seems. Not even all those poor users who don't know what they are missing, not having a man page for every tool.
Slashdot Mirror
Hell yes, I'd bitch about a.out to elf, but that was before my time ;-)
I only have one a.out binary anyway, and who plays linux doom these days when you can get lxdoom and its hires graphics brethern?
I used to like Redhat - long ago. Back when 4.2 was the latest version, and the Powertools distro was cheap. It had alpha + sparc + x86 in the one 6 CD set. It had scadloads of useful software (LyX / Gimp (motif!) / gimp (GTK!) / Lesstif / cbb ) . It had some simple but useful and documented GUI config tools - a simple installer. A semi decent package manager, and a good front end to it (glint)
RANT ON
It all went sour at 5.0 for two reasons. The libc 5 / glibc 2 switch, and another broken compiler. 1st of all, the libc5 compat libraries were not installed by default, and were too old anyway - StarOffice even then had binary problems on Redhat - wanting the current libc5 version. The glibc 2.0.5 version was also unstable - other distros held off longer for stability reasons.
Secondly, they managed to ship a gcc version that failed to compile anything on any cyrix cpu based system. Nice. They also moved their GUI tools to using a snapshot GTK version - and it wasn't replaceable with a subsequent version - needed for tracking the GIMP releases.
5.1 was just as bad. Broken image libraries, non standard file locations, and more. As well as Redhats travesty of a desktop - anyone remember fvwm-95?
When Linux 3rd party binaries become common, some are for Redhat, some are for SuSE. some Debian, some Corel etc, and some target all. Making a binary work on more than one distro is hell - StarOffice is a large example - anything in C++ is another, WordPerfect 8. RPM is not a good package manager - it doesn't handle auto upgrades well, and is widely used in incompatible ways. Try a SuSE or Mandrake RPM in Redhat. Or rather, don't. RPM is fubared, and the only compatibility method is to track Redhats latest and (ahem* greatest) version - and let the rest follow. This is redhats stealth move to monopolise the market for users running Linux - who wish to also run purchased third party prepackaged binaries - such as an Office Suite, DTP package, Industrial quality scalable DB, whatever.
Redhat's shoddy quality control has always been a problem for KDE users, never mind there erratically principled stance against KDE / Qt ( We want a friendly Linux / We won't distribute KDE / We will in Germany, cos our competition do / Its OK now, but we really want you to use our sponsored desktop (GNOME), We'll test the install so much that we don't notice that installing KDE installs Gnome Instead (6.1 - nice bug, in spiffy rushed GUI installer), and we mess the QTDIR variables to point to the wrong Qt to stop you compiling Qt based software) , and we now mass with the C++ compiler and libs needed, for say, C++ opensource, KDE the most prominent example?
In short Redhat claim to be user friendly.
In truth, they have several major faults.
To summarize - Redhats QA, Compability with outher Linux distros and itself, scheduling, admin tools, packaging system, and software selection suck. (planetary bodies through straws)
RANT OFF
I no longer use Redhat or Linux, did you guess?
FWIW, FreeBSD 4.1.1-STABLE
Seet ober20-26.html
http://developer.gnome.org/news/summary/1999_Oc
Section 6.
A search of mailing lists at the time will show the apologies.
Methinks you are a hypocrite - you want it free to use in your non free work. In short, a parasite.
KDevelop, btw, has app templates for GNOME apps.
As for KDE's programmers attitudes towards GNOMES programmers, who stole whose HTML renderer without attributing copyright, hmm? Hint - look for KDE names in GTKHtml
Hot Damn!
Netscape can finally run fast, SOffice, WordPerfect, Acrobat Reader, FrameMaker, etc...
I might even try a CDE desktop...
Nah...
Its a bit late. I mean, I'm only going to use it
for Netscape for ~6months and Nedit.
Is it? Yes.
KDElibs are LGPL
Parts of KDE packages (net, games, graphics, pim, multimedia, utils, toys) are GPL or Artistic License, varying by program to program.
KOffice is GPL'ed
Qt is QPL'ed
The DCOP IPC stuff is BSD licensed I believe.
So the answer is yes.
Of course, GPL bigots can't use Xfree, TeX, Perl etc as they are not GPL'ed, if they are that GPL bigoted. Free Software != Open Source, BFD.
Links
;-)
ftp://ftp.nebsllc.com/kde2
ftp://mandrakesoft.com/pub/molnarc
http://www.htw-dresden.de/~s2697
Also of interest
http://www.kde.org/mirrors.html
The beta is quite fast, fairly stable, and rather pretty. It has some problems, notably filemanager stability with JS, Java, and multiple windows, but it does embed its viewers for graphics and text well, is configurable, and renders slashdot, supporting cookies etc. That was of course, the important test
/* Better yet, use Debian's apt-get tool, which automatically solves dependency problems for you. */
.deb to be made. And it doesn't help on most linux systems, since alien isn't to hot on conversion from deb
Except for Debians extreme obsclesence(sp) and bias towards free software. It takes too long for
a
/*
What about, "Beat your self with a hammer, and
wonder why it hurts?" RPM is telling you that you
don't meet dependencies for a reason.
Don't be surprised if you ignore what it says and
then things don't work.
*/
How about RPM names its dependencies differently across Linux distros? I have libx installed, but the package names differ so on one distro, it fails with a dependecy warning. Force it with nodeps, it should work. It may not - they may be more incompatible.
Some RPM's cannot be relocated.
Some RPMS from SuSE fail on Redhat, likewise Caldera, likewise TurboLinux etc.
RPM sucks. All it does is allow uninstall. Its
dependecy checking is broken.
George Russell
//Red Hat Linux
/usr Really?)
//1.Download archive.
//2.rpm -ivh foo.rpm
3. su to root cos RPM's db is locked
4. read all your failed dependencies
5. Back on net, download dependecies, repeat
6. relocate RPM cos of distributors brain dead
defaults (KDE in
7. force install / no deps install
8. Pray it starts
9. use alien, treat it like a tarball
10. The only complete and easy packaging system
is an absence of packaging system, and autoconfed
source tarballs with the install replacement that
logs where the install puts it all.
RPM is so much fun when you are not using the
exact same Linux version as the packager.
I think the difference between python and perl can
simply be explained that perl is about getting
something done, no matter about how messy or
incorrect the method used may be, while python is
about doing things correctly 1st time, for later
use. Its the difference between grafting OOP into
a text processing language or including it from
the start.
Theres more than one way to do it, but theres
usually one correct and proper way. Python tends
to the second part of that, imho. Its also got a
more readable and less misused syntax, albeit
its use of whitespace is at the other extreme from
perl's fit it all into one line with no carraige
returns in sight. (if its not like that, your
likely not using perl to its tersest extent.)
From someone who has dabbled in both and used
neither significantly.
George Russell
Motif is never a system library on Linux - yet I
/. too well, this'll be an ugly poorly formatted comment.
see static linked binaries aka GPL violations
These apps have also predated LessTif, and what of
those which code to Motif 2.1 not 1.0 or 1.2?
Qt is a system library on Corel, Caldera and SuSE
linux. Its even used in the Graphical installers
i.e. in YaST 2 and Lizard, and in the default, nay
only GUI environment supplied (in Caldera \ Corel)
The linking of Qt + GPL'ed code does not break GPL
as Qt cannot be considered a derived work merely
by linking to it - its a flawed GPL interpretation
brought on by the GPLs vagueness on linking
In short, hypocrite's, with political views about
software freedom to peddle.
Lynx isn't rendering
GTK is more Open Source? Both are certified as Open Source, both are DFSG compliant. You may call GTK more free, but thats because RMS wants you to call Open Source Free Software and GTK uses the GNU Library GPL.
Both Qt and GTK have bindings - Qt is C++, C (if anyone cares - noone used it with C), Python, Perl, and Qt based apps can be scripted from any DCOP supporting language, even I hear, bash.
Qt Free Edition is X11 only - simply since no one has ported it. It is allowed.
Apps using Qt need not use Qt - GPL is fine, as is BSD, Artistic, MIT, etc - any Open Source license. Shareware / Proprietary is possible by purchasing Qt. If any one bothers about GPL + Qt, just ask about all the Motif based GPL applications, and then call them hypocrites when they defend them.
To get Windows portable software, pay or port, unlike GTK where you can only port it.
I think that covers the major errors.
It seems that as projects get beyond a certain level of size and or complexity, key developers must meet in real life. Either that, or go entirely Cathedral mode in development. At some point, the lag in discussions etc in net life makes such conferences needed. It sounds like fun as well ;-) KDE has had two similar conferences - just prior to the beta series for KDE 1 and also prior to Krash, aka KDE 1.89 Perhaps desktop interoperability should be talked about at these things - get KDE and Gnome developers together in a hacking environment for a while.
Some other large projects like the Gimp could probably get together for a quick conference / bug squashing session - 1.2 is eagerly waited. Any other suggestions for projects that could benefit from these type of meetings?
Now that Qt 2 is free software, under the QPL, will Debian include KDE 2 when it is released, based on Qt 2?
Also, do you feel it is better to keep Linux entirely DSFG free software only, or to include software in some way restricted, such as Pine, Qt 1.x and Netscape?
/* So now "modern" means "Windows"? When did that happen? */
The Mac came out in 1984. He's only 15 years behind the times, and if he can't manage in a GUI by now, he never will manage in a GUI. Sad but true. Its not exactly rocket science.
George Russell
Frankly Tom, if anyone cares a damn, after reading your posts they won't give a flying fuck. I have looked at ktops sources, added a few minor keyboard shortcuts, and sent it as a diff to the author, but frankly, your repetively pedantic and cretinous whining makes me wonder why I bothered. You obviously are far too set in your ways to bother trying to understand any other form of interface than a terminal and keyboard, or the conveniences they offer to anyone else. Go home, live in ascii land. We don't want you in the modern graphical computing world.
George Russell
Dammit, that was submit, not preview, and the link got mauled by slashdot. take 2
:-) */
;-) All KDE apps should list the authors in the help file. There is also a centralised bug tracking system, possibly at http://bugs.kde.org/
;-) Luckily, its changeable. What you want is probably Alt-F4, a direct Windows copy. Again, configurable. Ctrl-C seems to be accepted as a valid setting, though.
;-)) Most PC mice have two, Macs have one. Thats why I like Ctrl-C for Copy, since Emulate-Middle-Button isn't really too great. Its changeable, so its not Unix hostile, just different. You can set a KDE wide keybinding for copy and many others. Just that stty doesn't set KDE, same as KDE doesn't set console apps keybindings.
Hi Tom, If I seem trollish, its just a slashdot atmospheric thing and reading too many comments.
/* Once again we see the problem of doing nothing more than trying to copy Microsoft. That does not make sense to me, and it doesn't seem to make much sense to you, either. But you're doing it anyway, just because Microsoft does, even though it's easy to come up with something more sensible. This stuff is not easier to use than what we already have. It's just different, assuming a different set of prior knowledge. This means that the learning curve is very steep for non-Microsoft people. That's why it's annoying. */
Please replace every occurance of Microsoft in the above with Unix, and you'll see why KDE is the way it is. The target audience of KDE is more familiar with non Unix computing - you are the reverse. Unfortunately, this does put your needs slightly lower on the scale of things to do than the needs of one of potentially 200Million users who have used a Windows or a Windows like system. Or even systems unlike Windows, such as RiscOS, who can still adapt to KDE more than bare Unix. Oh, and the Alt,Ctrl, Menu and ShortCut standard was around before Windows took off, it became quite common in GEM, in character mode DOS applications, in OS/2, across the micro computer industry segment in fact. Like much else, MS copied it and got credit for innovation as a result. Sorry, just showing the historical background out of which the target users of KDE have come, and where it differs from Unix.
/* I don't know what this "minimize" jazz is. Sounds like xterm's mechanism for selecting either the "tiny" or the "unreadable" font. I can't see why close would ever mean something other than iconify. Please don't use this silly "close" word. Use "exit" when you mean exit, and use "iconify" when you mean iconify. Where is the configuration setting to fix this? */
Its a Windowsism, and a Netscapeism (KDE got the idea for toolbarslike it has from Netscape) but it may exist on Macs too. Its seen on a lot of X11 Windowmanagers these days, especially non fvwm based ones which don't put icons on the desktop, since thats where icons representing programs and files go. I regret that that ones probably hard coded, so you'd need to recompile.
/* First of all, I got the idea from one of the random menus down in the left corner. It's got the happycon with the words "rearrange icons" next to it. It looks like a "recycle" glyph. If you simply used words right from the get-go, you'd never have the problem of someone having to look up the meaning of a happycon, because you'd have a word.*/
The one that says, "refresh desktop", in the Utilities menu? Seems consistent usage to me. Its nice to have pictures and text.
/* You should make the default reasonable. */
It is, but just not for you. I think your outside the target audience for the default setting. When looking for a page up / down options, I'd be unpleasantly surprised if it wasn't mapped as it is.
/* Maybe you need to have a "Unix defaults"
meta-setup option. */
Create one, and post it the kde-users or kde-devel mailing list, asking for it to be integrated into the CVS version so it be released in Krash, or the betas to follow it.
/* But I'm not allowed to search the info stuff, which has always been my complain about it. And the searches that I can do don't bother to provide useful output. */
Perhaps KDE 2 can search info - I haven't checked that one. You could try Krash, the alpha release on Dec 15, and mail the author of kdehelps replacement with a feature request. Mailing the authors has always worked for me, they seem keen to implement stuff that users want.
/* First of all, it turns out that the program does correctly use my MANPATH if started from the command line. It does not do so when started from kdm(1). That's probably because my user environment wasn't loaded then. */
That may be it, but I'm sure its worked for me using kde or console to boot to. Its probably horribly vendor and release dependent across all the target platforms.
/* You've never heard of "standard part of the operating system" versus "add-on stuff"? What are you, an rpm(1) victim?
Oops, I'm just used to thinking of everything on the multiple CD's as part of the OS since I started uisng Linux.
/* What address do I send bug reports to? */
The authors email address from the help system should tell you
/* No, no, no, no, no, no! This is what I mean about being disrespectful to Unix users. We have already specified our editing preferences, just as we've specified our manpath, bin path, etc. ^W is one of the most commonly typed editing characters for many of us. And you've made it into something that destroys a program! That's just plain suicidal. Horrible. */
But also convenient, comfortable and changeable. The first two don't apply to you, but they do to me, and many others.
/* While I'm on the subject, you don't seem to pay attention to ^C to interrupt programs. Don't make me find stupid happicons. This is as bad as lynx. ^C means interrupt. */
It means copy, actually. Want a vote on it?
/* No, no, no. A THOUSAND TIMES, NO!. Control-C is interrupt current activity. Why would I ever use it be an alternative to the middle button? This is super nonintuitive. I know what ^C does, because I set it up with stty(1). This is so Unix-hostile! */
Middle button? What middle button? (I know
/* Wrong. If you have something in the space already, and something in your cut buffer, you need to clear it first before you paste. Look at Netscape's ALT-F find command. */
Um, in this case you paste in and then clear out the cruft that was there before, Its not nice, but if works. Just paste at the start, and then delete to the end after, since after the cursor is what was there before.
/* If the program isn't requiring keyboard input, it should use the regular keyboard for its actions, so a slash in kdehelp, etc. You could use Meta-/ or whatever if you were in keyboard input mode already. */
Modal applications seem a little, well, dated. Its why vi has a hard to learn rep, since people aren't used to modes to enter text as opposed to modes to enter commands, searches, and whatever else vi can do. I think Meta / or Ctrl / is the best option here unless you never type /
/* Where? Don't tell me "see the control center". I hate that. I have to search for everything. Why can't we be given a simple but discrete command to type in, or a discrete file name to edit? Why must we always poke around randomly till we find something? */
KWM has an rc file, its ~/.kde/share/config/kwmrc
The format is described in KDEhelp, under the section "Getting the most out of KDE" Window Manager (its linked on KDEhelps opening page), and then in the configuration section under the heading kwmrc. All KDE apps have rc files in text format. Its part of the app template, you get it by default.
/* This is completely Unix hostile. I've explained this to you before. I already told the system my preferences. Respect them. */
Sorry, you'll have to run through a final config change to tell KDE your preferences.
/* Sort your WM config to put them over the window that creates them. */
You could just choose manual placement, (in kwmrc ) and get any popup windows to place yourself. Or just replace KWM with WindowMaker, Enlightenment, BlackBox, wmx, flwm, xfwm or any other KDE complaint Window Manager. Or even non compliant, just tell kpanel not to expect KWM, and you can use your window manager of choice. KDE's quite flexible in that regard. If you like fvwm, well, use fvwm. You may have to edit startkde, its not hard to do.
/* This is extremely Unix-hostile. Can you really not make your Windows rewrite without kicking sand in the faces of Unix programmers? This makes no sense. */
Again, you say its hostile. It makes no sense to write another desktop for Unix programmers, already content with their X11 desktop or lack of one. It could be worse - KDE could be less configurable than it already is.
George Russell
1. Fixed in KDE 1.1.2 Get the latest bugfix version.
2. Help-About works fine. Version 1.0.1 here. KDEopts will be the standard set of options to all KDE apps, like all Xaw/Xlib apps taking geom options. I have never needed to know what KDEopts actually are, nor do I care.
3. See 1
4. Qt 2 has less flicker. KDE 2 will flicker less. Until then, turn the refresh rate down.
5. See 1 again
6. See 1, or don't start from a terminal. Its only debugging output.
7. Its called the tab key, tom.
8. Its on one of those buttons you couldn't touch, tom, not even with the mouse (not that you even tried with the mouse)
9. Your first valid point, and a weak one. You want it dead, does it really matter what signal its sent? It must be absolutely stuffed for you to kill it this way anyway. Sigterm and Sigkill are on the context popup menu.
10. Those are the icons suppliedby the programs running. Kfm has a filing cabinet, Kpanel a big K (its old icon), bash a little console icon, and so on. There are some generic categories, like an X app with an X logo icon, or a program with a gear, which is the default KDE app icon for binary files. Your KDE knowledge shines through, and there are no sunbursts on this screen tom.
11. Sometimes, the name of the program is the commandline tom.
12. Try the cursor keys, tom. Or patch the source to add accelerators like M. You only need add an ampersand to the code, is that too hard?
13. Multiple selections aren't needed. It'd be nice to have, but not essential. I can't see in top(1)'s help screen ? how to do that either.
14. See 13
15. Its on the menu, how much more intuitive can it be?
16. To cancel a selection, press escape. You selected a menu, use it or cancel it.
17. Well done, finally a valid point. Just because you can send many signals to a process doesn't mean you want them all in a list on a menu. Just use Alt-F2, kill SIGNAL PID
18. It may be wrong in places, or not very helpful, but its next to the names of the signals. If they don't know the purpose of a signal, don't send it. Look it up. Sheesh. Oh yeah, theres a bug report section in the help file. Go read it.
19. How often are all these used? how long would a menu be with all these included? Oh, and see 18.
20. Can I do that in top? Its not in the help page from ? So its a feature request. goto the KDE wishlist and add it, or contact the developer.
21. You can restrict the processes shown to all, system, user and own. You can't do what you want in top, afaik.
22. Quit is in the file menu by long standing convention (just as long and arbitrary convention as Emacs / Vi keybindings you keep banging on about). You can directly quit with Ctrl-Q. Its not alt -Q becuase Alt is used to access menus.
23. Another minor bug! Well done. go log it.
24. You would complain if it didn't ask for confirmation. The focus thing is configurable, in the Control Center. Go do so.
25. Thats becase the default choice is abort. read a dialog, why don't you.
As you see, tom is a pedant, who dislikes all GUI's immensely, except the imaginary one that he's designed and implemented in his own mind and one thats most at home on a vt100. Vapourware it isn't, since it would then escape to the real world outside his head.
George Russell
Point 1 - is being rationalised and reorganised for KDE 2 and by Corel.
/opt/kde, self contained except for Qt.
Point 2 - Edit is there since thats what find comes under in most GUI's. It makes some sense, just not too much
Point 3 - You seem to confuse Window Manager and Application menues. Closing Windows does not Minimise them. Seems fair enough to me.
Point 4 - In KDE 2
Point 5 - It means refresh / reload, not rearrange icons. Where you got that idea, I don't know. The tooltip tells you what it means
Point 6 - Configrable. Go configure it. Its set to page up/down by defualt. KDE Control Center or Settings-KeyBoard ShortCuts
Point 7 - may be valid.
Point 8 - Use the search tool after ticking all types
Point 9 - Again, an Xism, its just like Xman
Point 10 - may be valid
Point 11 - may be valid, works fine here though
Point 12 - valid, but this is how Xman does it.
Point 13 - may be valid, I see no distinction between locally installed and OS Standard - its installed or its not.
Point 14 - could be
Point 15 - it takes time sure, but it works. I don't see your point
Point 16 - may be valid
Point 17 - Its a keyword search, like, just one word. Pattern matching regexps would seem to be excluded by definition.
Point 18 - valid
Point 19 - valid (KDE 1.x doesn't support reight to left languages, maybe 2 will)
Point 20 - Its assumed you have found what you wanted. Good enough assumption to make, else you'd complain about clearing it for a new search.
Point 21 - Its a bug when you move focus around the elements in the window. Report it.
Point 22 - ^W is a KDE standard binding for close. Change it.
Point 23 - It works fine here, with Ctrl-c to copy
Point 24 - No need
Point 25 - Configurable, though not a good idea. consider typing / anywhere in KDE ever again and getting a find dialog. Or do you mean Ctrl-/ ?
Point 26 - Focus issues are configurable for KWM. See the control center. Focus can be shifted using the keyboard, with Alt-Tab or Shift-Alt-Tab
Point 27 - Ctrl-a, Ctrl-e work. So does del and backspace, etc. So does Ctrl-H Some subset of Emacs bindings, by the look of it, plus some Windows ones.
Point 28 - Their called application modal dialogs. Sort your WM config to put them over the window that creates them.
Point 29 - Its a Window, so its listed as such. Transients simply aren't excluded from the Window list - its a feature.
Point 30 - See 28
KDE's version is prominently displayed in the KDE Control Center, which you may wish to visit to negate many of your above points.
Failing that, rpm -qa | grep kde -
Its probably 1.1 or 1.1.x
Your bitching about lack of man pages is duly noted and ignored.
to find a KDE programs version, go to Help-About. That is one thing common across nearly all GUI's.
Don't blame KDE for Redhats crappy packaging, KDE is by default in
George Russell
/* I expect and demand a single, solitary, coherently and seemlessly integrated documentation system for the entire operating system. I expect and demand that every command be documented, and that every user-callable function be documented. */
And come chirstmas, you'll be very disappointed when all your other demands and expectations aren't met. If you expect, well, your just wrong, and if you demand, your ignorant and arrogant, to demand what others do with their copious free time what your unwilling to pay someone to do for you.
/* But it must be ONE SINGLE SYSTEM. */
Bzzt. Wrong. It must appear as one single system which is not the same thing. KDEHelp does this quite nicely (again, your complete ignorance of anything GUI and / or KDE related shines through)
Go back to vt100 land and syntax like line noise.
/* You would never get away with this crap from a real vendor. */
Try paying for your operating system next time, before you whine about vendors not doing what you want.
/* Just have make install generate and install proper manpages in proper. Anything else is wrong. If it's so damned easy, just shut up and do the right thing.*/
man is an inferior doc format than html, so I'm not going to act the format fascist and insist that people waste discspace just to satisfy your perverse pleasures in document formatting.
/* And remember, "elitist" is ignoramus-speak for "competent professional". I'll be happy to don that moniker and eschew its antonym */
Well, you've yet to prove yourself competent in any environment more advanced and recent than that of vt100's , so I think you are quite the example of Unix Elitism. And Not Invented Here syndrome. Your lack of GUI knowledge, in a so called "computer professional" is frightening. I've seen amateur users and even intelligent five year olds with more knowledge of how to use any GUI than you have presented. You just keep saying, waaah, its not a command shell.
/* Anyone who touches a computer is severely handicapped if they can't type */
I said, touch type, so your response is irrelevant. I don't need to touch type to drive a GUI from the keyboard.
/* Stop screwing over those of us who can by choosing a single-bit interface when there's a concerto just waiting to unfold beneath the expert's fingers. */
Don't make us dedicate our lives to learning to use a CLI just for your convenience.
/* You clearly lack the ability to understand why reliance on cascading and nested menus for command execution is fundamentally evil. You can't search them. You can't automate them. You can't ever get any better than the buffoon you were when you first got there. I could write an entire paper on why forcing this moronic model down all our throats is brain-numbing and counter-productive. */
Reliance may be evil. Offering alternatives is not. Much of UI research has been based on finding alternatives to a command line. To those researchers, I am greatful - you have lessened the trivial arcana needed in order to use a computer. KDE can and will be automateable. Try research before spouting crap. Write your paper - post it as a Slashdot article. Refuting it should be trivial.
/* I've looked at your karma */
Was a fulfilling experience? Is slashdot karma any indication of anything other than celebrity name recognition and pandering to the well known biases of the slashdot moderators? Guess again, tom. The answer is no...
/* Go ahead -- waste your life. */
Try and get Tom to have a discussion in any reasonable manner, rather than cherry pick points out of detailed refutations to his FUD. Nice try Tom, your categorised as Arrogant, Ignorant, Troll.
/* Maybe you should reread my original article. One place where the toolkit and/or window mangler people could really help is the slow, stupid, repetitious, non-searchable menu paradigm. If I were to pick one thing after proper documentation, it would be this. Maybe even before. You don't want each program to cope with it. That's the wrong layer. */
Non searchable menus? Big friggin deal. you can remember commandline switches, I'll remember menu placement. Seems theres more standards in menu placements as well, so its really easy.
Things are even helpfully placed in meanfingful groups.
KDE's documentation, btw, is perfectly proper, and if you want man pages, you can generate them yourself from the SGML source. Everyone else can hapily use html, same as always.
/* Please don't come off with this "let them use a 24x80 vt100" noise for Unix users. That's not fair, and it's not what Unix is really about. At all. */
Its a damn good approximation of what Unix is all about. Especially to experienced unix users, who can't get the idea of non touch typing commandline junkies into their heads.
/* This is just another way to tell us we don't matter, that it's ok to ignore us and piss us off, because it's cheaper to take the heat than to do it right. And if that doesn't dissappoint you, I don't know what does. */
Having to wait for Unix to be made user friendly just so as a bunch of die hard Unix elitists won't be upset by the design of something they won't use would dissapoint me. Your critiscism / questions of KDE make it clear youve not had more than trivial experience with it, if any at all.
George Russell
/* I have no more time for such trolling. */
;-) Thwack!
Nice to hear you admit it. Honesty - I never thought I'd see that on Slashdot.
/* Whack the Mole is not a very satisfying game. */
Go on, stick your head up again.
Sorry, reflex action there.
No Unix I've seen had good user documentation. Programmer and Sysadmin stuff, scattered but there. But not user related stuff, in any quantity.
All OS'es have lousy help documentation. The market in books on computing seems to confirm this.
Unix people will see themeselves mirrored, and hate it. After all, there documentation is our documentation, exposed to the scrutiny of more people. And they don't want someone to say "and what makes yours better, except that we paid for yours?"
Your energy could doubtless be more profitably expended, but like me, you do not remedy this situation to any great extent.
Nice labelling as a Linux apologist, btw, I could be quite easily using *BSD or Solaris x86, or even SCO. Except that the best x86 Unixlike OS is Linux.
HTML is not GUI only. Hit yourself with a cluestick until that fact permeates.
A suggestion : The Rise and Fall of the Unix Elite
(And how the apocalypse came) It seems to be self dramatising enough for you.
You are not diminished in any way by the popularisation of Unix. Just don't change, and keep on using Unix, under the interface layers of more casual users.
btw, cavemen used CP/M. Or at least, its users went ug at the the sight of it.
/* Linux != Unix, its merely Unixlike */
/* Do we really have to listen to this idiocy anymore? It's pure sophistry; or, if you prefer, and artful lie. It serves no useful purpose to propagate the deceipt. */
I've used Unix(tm) Its wildly different to Linux(tm) + GNU + 4GB userland tools...
If you like, Linux is Unix +
To an end user, its still different. Usually better, too.
Nice gratuitous insult, btw. If they disagree, insult them till they shut up. Really does convince someone your right.
/* As for a properly installed and completely integrated online man system, there is absolutely no reason not to do it. It precludes nothing. */
Rather than extend it, fix whats present. Make it useful. Make it readable, comprehensible, and perhaps people will want to add to it for you rather than start from scratch.
/* I can give you a list of incoherent inanities in this regard in any Linux operating system you can name that will make you blanche.*/
Well gee, theres only one Linux OS and many GNU / Linux systems, so if you find multiple Linux OS'e then I'd like one of each, please.
man makes most linux users blanche, btw. Something about the way it was designed and implemented by and for unix programmers.
/* Please stop dodging the issue of carelessness and lack of craftsmanship. Just fix it. It's easy. */
Scratch your own itch... It is free software...
No one else cares enough, it seems. Not even all those poor users who don't know what they are missing, not having a man page for every tool.