You haven't really made it clear in what respect I don't know what I'm talking about. It seems to me that you're trying to claim that being taller always gives someone the physical edge. Also, if you were stronger and taller than your father at 15 but only an inch taller than him at 17, you seem to have stopped growing early. In any case, being heavier or taller, or heavier and taller don't necessarily make someone physically superior, I think we can agree on that. Martin, however, was both significantly taller and significantly lighter than Zimmerman, who had himself recently lost weight. The only advantage I can see that Martin could have had was reach, and that doesn't count for much in close quarters grappling.
No, he really did not. Where are you getting your information? Pretty much everything I can find says that he played football until age 14, went through an aviation program and didn't play football after that, though he did work concessions for games.
I'm reaching on what? My own personal anecdote, or my assertion that being taller doesn't make someone some sort of killing machine? Height is no more the be all and end all than weight is.
You didn't really answer my questions. Was your father, in fact in good shape and good health. Did you ever actually engage in any sort of combat? Arm wrestling? Anything that demonstrates that you really were physically superior?
None of this changes the fact that the 17-year old Martin frankly looked a bit frail.
Yes, it's perfectly normal for people to walk around like a thug in a gated community (especially one he didn't live in).
You really aren't very intellectually honest are you? First off, he was a minor with separated parents staying with his father who was co-habitating with his significant other in the neighborhood. In other words, even if only temporarily, he did live there. Secondly, how exactly do you define "walk[ing] around like a thug?". Is it the grievous crime of walking around while black? Or is just being young and male enough for you?
You've never been to Sanford. It's a town you don't normally just walk around in. If you can't understand that, you're too stupid to talk to.
Ok... No pedestrians in Sanford, got it. Not even in gated communities. And the fact that one of the witnesses was a 14 (might have been 13) year old pedestrian doesn't suggest that you're completely wrong at all. Oh, and despite the fact that you can't get the weather, or the time, or any other details right, I'm the stupid one? I think a little self-examination might be in order.
Essentially cornered him but lost sight
lulz
This is pretty much from Zimmerman's own version of events. Exactly where Martin was when Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to search for him is unknown and probably will never been known because Zimmerman killed him. We do know that Zimmerman chased him in his vehicle and Martin ran, but didn't make it back home, then Zimmerman got out of the car, then there was an altercation and Martin was killed. My description of events seems pretty in line with that.
I know you're trolling because there's no way you could possibly be this fucking stupid.
"A thuggish manner?" You mean in warm clothing that covers your ears in winter? You already tried to claim it was sweltering and didn't respond at all to the fact that your claim was complete bunk, and you're trying to call me incoherent?
Also, is it possible that the manner of his dress wouldn't have looked so "thuggish" if he didn't also insist on wearing dark skin?
That does seem to suggest that parts of the fight Zimmerman described did indeed happen. However, given the very visible blood in the picture you linked to, and the complete lack of blood in the police video (which does have some back of the head shots with sufficient contrast that anything like the later shots should be visible), the later shots of his head look a little staged since the blood wasn't flowing freely again after his trip to the police station. Not saying that the injuries aren't real, just that he may have whacked his head against something to get the blood flowing again. What you posted still doesn't really address the lack of blood on Zimmerman's front. I've been told there was some blood splatter and that the wound wouldn't have produced much blood, but it still seems like there should have been at least some visible. The police video isn't great, but it still gives some pretty good shots of Zimmerman's shirt.
In any case, the existence of a struggle doesn't really prove that the use of escalated force was warranted since it doesn't really say anything about details of the fight that aren't part of Zimmerman's story. It also doesn't address the fact that the whole thing happened because Zimmerman created a situation that would leave Martin fearing for his life.
Florida does, in fact, have laws for manslaughter. Any time you anyone does anything stupid that gets someone killed where the outcome was remotely forseeable, it's manslaughter. Plenty of people have gone to jail for manslaughter who were far, far less culpable than Zimmerman.
As for your example of something not illegal but stupid, you can be assured that, anyone doing that who was subsequently attacked, but shot the attackers would be charged with manslaughter at least.
And I remember in my early twenties being picked up by a kid around Trayvon Martin's age. He was African-American also, if it matters, he was about 6' 2, but fairly lean, though not as lean as Martin. He reached around and grabbed me around the waist and started carrying me backwards. It was all friendly and in good fun, but also a bit of one of those stupid male self-assertion things . I'm a little over 5' 8", so about average height, but he was quite looming and , although I probably outmassed him. I remember he was quite surprised when I reached down, grabbed his hands and simply pulled them apart, leaving his hands in some minor pain. If the situation were reversed, he wouldn't have stood a chance of pulling my arms apart and I could have squeezed him until his ribs cracked and, after he felt my grip, both of us knew it.
Your dad might have outweighed you by 15 pounds, but how was he built, and what kind of health was he in? If the extra weight was a gut and he had bad knees, for example, it's not surprising if you could beat him. Looking at Zimmerman, he seems to be pretty densely built. The fact that he had worked as a bouncer suggests he could probably handle himself, and age and experience count for something.
I guarantee you all the robbers weren't wearing outfits from Banana Republic, they were dressed more like trayvon[sic]
Which robbers? No-one involved in the breakins was caught. Robbers also traditionally dress in articles of ski clothing. Do we need vigilantes on the streets of Aspen, Colorado as well?
Wearing a hoodie at midnight, on a school night, in a neighborhood with a higher than normal crime right is suspicious.
Not midnight. Approximately 7 PM. It looks like he left to go to the store before dark and was heading back shortly after dark. Also, the neighborhood didn't have a higher than average crime rate. The crime rate was lower than average for the town.
Zimmerman confronted the him, Martin decided he was gonna "keep it real" and this was a case where keeping it real goes wrong.
Zimmerman did not confront Martin according to Zimmerman's own story. He chased Martin in his car, essentially cornered him but lost sight of him, went out on foot in search of him, then Martin confronted Zimmerman. At that point, Zimmerman did not announce that he was with the neighborhood watch, he instead lied and acted in a way that a reasonable person would consider suspicious and probably threatening.
No, I haven't been there, although I have visited towns similar to what you describe in Florida. But the "area" in question, was the gated neighborhood, not the whole town.
Sorry, I've seen the pictures of Martin. Not just the young pictures, the ones from pretty much immediately before his death where he's posing and trying to look tough. He was a stick insect.
The weather in Sanford, Florida on February 26th of this year was a mean temperature of 58.7. Notes say rain and/or melted snow reported during the day. Mean wind speed was 7.83 MPH with gusts of 21.86 MPH. Sunset was at 6:23 PM. Zimmerman spotted Martin at approximately 7:09 PM. Temperatures in the evening could be expected to be below the mean temperature, making Martin's clothing completely weather-appropriate.
This was a gated neighborhood, as you observed. It was not, despite some break-ins, a high crime area.
Following is when you just follow someone who isn't reacting to you. Chasing is when they do react to you and try to get away from you, which even Zimmerman admits Martin did. So, unless you have some special definition of chasing, Zimmerman was chasing Martin. Zimmerman lost Martin, parked, then looked around for him on foot. Then Martin confronted him (once again, provided that Zimmerman is telling the truth), which strongly suggests that Martin was hiding nearby somewhere. Zimmerman was on foot and apparently near his car, but wasn't leaving. Zimmerman lied to Martin about what he was doing and turned his body away from him and went for his cell phone. Martin almost certainly knew that Zimmerman had a gun (Zimmerman has claimed that Martin tried to take it). Given all those facts, it's hard not to conclude that Martin thought that this bizarre, random stalker was about to shoot him.
Provided that's really what happened, Zimmerman has already explained it. He chased Martin down in a vehicle, cornered him, but thought he'd lost him, got out of the vehicle to look around on foot, was confronted by Martin who demanded to know what he was doing, then Zimmerman lied about what he was doing and acted suspiciously, probably making Martin think that Zimmerman was going to shoot him.
No, the physical evidence might say that Zimmerman and Martin fought. It says nothing about who the attacker is. Also, even if Martin did attack, it doesn't make him "a bad kid trying to assault someone". Based even on Zimmerman's account, it more likely makes him a scared kid in a standard fight or flight response who had decided that flight had failed.
But, when Martin asked Zimmerman what his problem was, Zimmerman didn't identify himself as neighborhood watch, but instead lied and acted suspiciously. This is Zimmerman's version of events, not Martin's (since, you know, dead).
I don't know that Martin felt his life was threatened. He might simply have been annoyed at being followed and decided to beat the snot out of Zimmerman to teach him a lesson. That's what Zimmerman claims, anyway.
Even if Zimmerman didn't obviously have a gun (he claims that Martin tried to take the gun from him, so clearly Martin did know), I don't see how you could reasonably believe that no-one would consider his behaviour threatening.
But Zimmerman himself said that Martin was trying to get his gun, so he can't claim that Martin didn't know he had one. As for being cornered and not being able to run away, that sounds a bit like the actual situation. I don't have a map of the neighborhood to truly work this out, but Martin obviously didn't go directly home. This makes some sense when some scary stranger was after him for some unknown reason either because he didn't want to lead Zimmerman to where he lived or because he was essentially running and hiding from Zimmerman. Zimmerman gets out of his vehicle and is walking around looking for Martin when Martin comes out to confront him. It's possible that Martin was lurking, waiting to strike, but it seems more plausible to me that he really was cornered.
It's pretty certain that Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun, and Zimmerman has stated that, after lying to Martin about following him (instead of saying that he was with the neighborhood watch), he turned away from him and went for his cellphone. From Martin's point of view, it's hard to imagine that he wouldn't have thought Zimmerman was going for a gun.
Exerting your freedom and going where you are legally allowed to go even if you know you may be attacked, whilst taking precautions to defend yourself in case you are attacked, is hardly negligence.
Amazing that you apply that to Zimmerman but not to Martin. Also, I'm pretty willing to bet that if Zimmerman had been chasing a teenage girl around that way instead of a boy and had been arrested, you'd be calling him a moron rather than defending him.
To have a tense standoff, you just need to believe that either a) you can win a nuclear war by surprise attack or b) the opponent believes he can win a nuclear war by surprise attack. That can be entirely rational.
Thinking that you can go ahead with a nuclear war and win it is genocidal thinking. It's beyond psychotic. I stand by my assertion that to have a tense standoff with nuclear weapons, at least one side needs to be crazy or reasonably believable as crazy.
The prosecution will try to show that Zimmerman has a long history of racism, harrassment of minorities, and irresponsible gun handling, in order to make the idea that he assaulted Martin and then shot him for no reason other than that he was a black kid walking around the neighborhood.
They will try to show that if they can, but the judge probably won't allow it as it will be prejudicial.
Which apparently includes bouncer for illegal house parties. A job from which I now seem to recall he was fired from for being too aggressive and brutal. That's certainly relevant, but I'm pretty sure that it's probably not going to be admissible.
However, a court won't have a problem compelling you to testify if the prosecution grants you immunity. The problem is that I'm also pretty sure that the court won't do a thing except try you if the the prosecution then decides to arbitrarily withdraw that immunity.
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You haven't really made it clear in what respect I don't know what I'm talking about. It seems to me that you're trying to claim that being taller always gives someone the physical edge. Also, if you were stronger and taller than your father at 15 but only an inch taller than him at 17, you seem to have stopped growing early. In any case, being heavier or taller, or heavier and taller don't necessarily make someone physically superior, I think we can agree on that. Martin, however, was both significantly taller and significantly lighter than Zimmerman, who had himself recently lost weight. The only advantage I can see that Martin could have had was reach, and that doesn't count for much in close quarters grappling.
No, he really did not. Where are you getting your information? Pretty much everything I can find says that he played football until age 14, went through an aviation program and didn't play football after that, though he did work concessions for games.
I'm reaching on what? My own personal anecdote, or my assertion that being taller doesn't make someone some sort of killing machine? Height is no more the be all and end all than weight is.
You didn't really answer my questions. Was your father, in fact in good shape and good health. Did you ever actually engage in any sort of combat? Arm wrestling? Anything that demonstrates that you really were physically superior?
None of this changes the fact that the 17-year old Martin frankly looked a bit frail.
Yes, it's perfectly normal for people to walk around like a thug in a gated community (especially one he didn't live in).
You really aren't very intellectually honest are you? First off, he was a minor with separated parents staying with his father who was co-habitating with his significant other in the neighborhood. In other words, even if only temporarily, he did live there. Secondly, how exactly do you define "walk[ing] around like a thug?". Is it the grievous crime of walking around while black? Or is just being young and male enough for you?
You've never been to Sanford. It's a town you don't normally just walk around in. If you can't understand that, you're too stupid to talk to.
Ok... No pedestrians in Sanford, got it. Not even in gated communities. And the fact that one of the witnesses was a 14 (might have been 13) year old pedestrian doesn't suggest that you're completely wrong at all. Oh, and despite the fact that you can't get the weather, or the time, or any other details right, I'm the stupid one? I think a little self-examination might be in order.
Essentially cornered him but lost sight
lulz
This is pretty much from Zimmerman's own version of events. Exactly where Martin was when Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to search for him is unknown and probably will never been known because Zimmerman killed him. We do know that Zimmerman chased him in his vehicle and Martin ran, but didn't make it back home, then Zimmerman got out of the car, then there was an altercation and Martin was killed. My description of events seems pretty in line with that.
I know you're trolling because there's no way you could possibly be this fucking stupid.
Uh-huh. Sorry, just saying it doesn't make it so.
"A thuggish manner?" You mean in warm clothing that covers your ears in winter? You already tried to claim it was sweltering and didn't respond at all to the fact that your claim was complete bunk, and you're trying to call me incoherent?
Also, is it possible that the manner of his dress wouldn't have looked so "thuggish" if he didn't also insist on wearing dark skin?
That does seem to suggest that parts of the fight Zimmerman described did indeed happen. However, given the very visible blood in the picture you linked to, and the complete lack of blood in the police video (which does have some back of the head shots with sufficient contrast that anything like the later shots should be visible), the later shots of his head look a little staged since the blood wasn't flowing freely again after his trip to the police station. Not saying that the injuries aren't real, just that he may have whacked his head against something to get the blood flowing again. What you posted still doesn't really address the lack of blood on Zimmerman's front. I've been told there was some blood splatter and that the wound wouldn't have produced much blood, but it still seems like there should have been at least some visible. The police video isn't great, but it still gives some pretty good shots of Zimmerman's shirt.
In any case, the existence of a struggle doesn't really prove that the use of escalated force was warranted since it doesn't really say anything about details of the fight that aren't part of Zimmerman's story. It also doesn't address the fact that the whole thing happened because Zimmerman created a situation that would leave Martin fearing for his life.
Florida does, in fact, have laws for manslaughter. Any time you anyone does anything stupid that gets someone killed where the outcome was remotely forseeable, it's manslaughter. Plenty of people have gone to jail for manslaughter who were far, far less culpable than Zimmerman.
As for your example of something not illegal but stupid, you can be assured that, anyone doing that who was subsequently attacked, but shot the attackers would be charged with manslaughter at least.
That's fairly informative. I couldn't find anything about whether or not there was an exit wound.
There was no blood on Zimmerman because I don't know about the law? Please enlighten me.
Martin played football up to the age of 14. That's not 4 months removed from playing. You're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about.
And I remember in my early twenties being picked up by a kid around Trayvon Martin's age. He was African-American also, if it matters, he was about 6' 2, but fairly lean, though not as lean as Martin. He reached around and grabbed me around the waist and started carrying me backwards. It was all friendly and in good fun, but also a bit of one of those stupid male self-assertion things . I'm a little over 5' 8", so about average height, but he was quite looming and , although I probably outmassed him. I remember he was quite surprised when I reached down, grabbed his hands and simply pulled them apart, leaving his hands in some minor pain. If the situation were reversed, he wouldn't have stood a chance of pulling my arms apart and I could have squeezed him until his ribs cracked and, after he felt my grip, both of us knew it.
Your dad might have outweighed you by 15 pounds, but how was he built, and what kind of health was he in? If the extra weight was a gut and he had bad knees, for example, it's not surprising if you could beat him. Looking at Zimmerman, he seems to be pretty densely built. The fact that he had worked as a bouncer suggests he could probably handle himself, and age and experience count for something.
I guarantee you all the robbers weren't wearing outfits from Banana Republic, they were dressed more like trayvon[sic]
Which robbers? No-one involved in the breakins was caught. Robbers also traditionally dress in articles of ski clothing. Do we need vigilantes on the streets of Aspen, Colorado as well?
Wearing a hoodie at midnight, on a school night, in a neighborhood with a higher than normal crime right is suspicious.
Not midnight. Approximately 7 PM. It looks like he left to go to the store before dark and was heading back shortly after dark. Also, the neighborhood didn't have a higher than average crime rate. The crime rate was lower than average for the town.
Zimmerman confronted the him, Martin decided he was gonna "keep it real" and this was a case where keeping it real goes wrong.
Zimmerman did not confront Martin according to Zimmerman's own story. He chased Martin in his car, essentially cornered him but lost sight of him, went out on foot in search of him, then Martin confronted Zimmerman. At that point, Zimmerman did not announce that he was with the neighborhood watch, he instead lied and acted in a way that a reasonable person would consider suspicious and probably threatening.
No, I haven't been there, although I have visited towns similar to what you describe in Florida. But the "area" in question, was the gated neighborhood, not the whole town.
Sorry, I've seen the pictures of Martin. Not just the young pictures, the ones from pretty much immediately before his death where he's posing and trying to look tough. He was a stick insect.
The weather in Sanford, Florida on February 26th of this year was a mean temperature of 58.7. Notes say rain and/or melted snow reported during the day. Mean wind speed was 7.83 MPH with gusts of 21.86 MPH. Sunset was at 6:23 PM. Zimmerman spotted Martin at approximately 7:09 PM. Temperatures in the evening could be expected to be below the mean temperature, making Martin's clothing completely weather-appropriate.
This was a gated neighborhood, as you observed. It was not, despite some break-ins, a high crime area.
Following is when you just follow someone who isn't reacting to you. Chasing is when they do react to you and try to get away from you, which even Zimmerman admits Martin did. So, unless you have some special definition of chasing, Zimmerman was chasing Martin. Zimmerman lost Martin, parked, then looked around for him on foot. Then Martin confronted him (once again, provided that Zimmerman is telling the truth), which strongly suggests that Martin was hiding nearby somewhere. Zimmerman was on foot and apparently near his car, but wasn't leaving. Zimmerman lied to Martin about what he was doing and turned his body away from him and went for his cell phone. Martin almost certainly knew that Zimmerman had a gun (Zimmerman has claimed that Martin tried to take it). Given all those facts, it's hard not to conclude that Martin thought that this bizarre, random stalker was about to shoot him.
Provided that's really what happened, Zimmerman has already explained it. He chased Martin down in a vehicle, cornered him, but thought he'd lost him, got out of the vehicle to look around on foot, was confronted by Martin who demanded to know what he was doing, then Zimmerman lied about what he was doing and acted suspiciously, probably making Martin think that Zimmerman was going to shoot him.
No, the physical evidence might say that Zimmerman and Martin fought. It says nothing about who the attacker is. Also, even if Martin did attack, it doesn't make him "a bad kid trying to assault someone". Based even on Zimmerman's account, it more likely makes him a scared kid in a standard fight or flight response who had decided that flight had failed.
But, when Martin asked Zimmerman what his problem was, Zimmerman didn't identify himself as neighborhood watch, but instead lied and acted suspiciously. This is Zimmerman's version of events, not Martin's (since, you know, dead).
I don't know that Martin felt his life was threatened. He might simply have been annoyed at being followed and decided to beat the snot out of Zimmerman to teach him a lesson. That's what Zimmerman claims, anyway.
Even if Zimmerman didn't obviously have a gun (he claims that Martin tried to take the gun from him, so clearly Martin did know), I don't see how you could reasonably believe that no-one would consider his behaviour threatening.
But Zimmerman himself said that Martin was trying to get his gun, so he can't claim that Martin didn't know he had one. As for being cornered and not being able to run away, that sounds a bit like the actual situation. I don't have a map of the neighborhood to truly work this out, but Martin obviously didn't go directly home. This makes some sense when some scary stranger was after him for some unknown reason either because he didn't want to lead Zimmerman to where he lived or because he was essentially running and hiding from Zimmerman. Zimmerman gets out of his vehicle and is walking around looking for Martin when Martin comes out to confront him. It's possible that Martin was lurking, waiting to strike, but it seems more plausible to me that he really was cornered.
It's pretty certain that Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun, and Zimmerman has stated that, after lying to Martin about following him (instead of saying that he was with the neighborhood watch), he turned away from him and went for his cellphone. From Martin's point of view, it's hard to imagine that he wouldn't have thought Zimmerman was going for a gun.
Exerting your freedom and going where you are legally allowed to go even if you know you may be attacked, whilst taking precautions to defend yourself in case you are attacked, is hardly negligence.
Amazing that you apply that to Zimmerman but not to Martin. Also, I'm pretty willing to bet that if Zimmerman had been chasing a teenage girl around that way instead of a boy and had been arrested, you'd be calling him a moron rather than defending him.
To have a tense standoff, you just need to believe that either a) you can win a nuclear war by surprise attack or b) the opponent believes he can win a nuclear war by surprise attack. That can be entirely rational.
Thinking that you can go ahead with a nuclear war and win it is genocidal thinking. It's beyond psychotic. I stand by my assertion that to have a tense standoff with nuclear weapons, at least one side needs to be crazy or reasonably believable as crazy.
The prosecution will try to show that Zimmerman has a long history of racism, harrassment of minorities, and irresponsible gun handling, in order to make the idea that he assaulted Martin and then shot him for no reason other than that he was a black kid walking around the neighborhood.
They will try to show that if they can, but the judge probably won't allow it as it will be prejudicial.
Travon didn't go home. It's possible he got pissed off and returned to the scene.
It's more likely that he was hiding because some crazy person was chasing him.
Which apparently includes bouncer for illegal house parties. A job from which I now seem to recall he was fired from for being too aggressive and brutal. That's certainly relevant, but I'm pretty sure that it's probably not going to be admissible.
However, a court won't have a problem compelling you to testify if the prosecution grants you immunity. The problem is that I'm also pretty sure that the court won't do a thing except try you if the the prosecution then decides to arbitrarily withdraw that immunity.