It's a work in progress. I agree it looks nice. They changed the interface a bit, so download a nightly build and try it out. I think it was said that Netscape 5 will support the latest version of Java.
Actually, when he referred to the "Application Barrier to Entry" he meant the number of applications and variety that are available on other operating systems, which Windows has vastly more.
You said earlier that Linux is "ancient technology". I have doubts that you have ever used it, and are here just to spread nonsensical FUD. I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft paid people to go around and do this. Oh, let me ask, what are these applications you're talking about?
Why does everyone assume that a Netscape user only uses Netscape because it is the only other choice? I use Netscape because I like it better. I think it is faster than IE. I don't care what anyone says. My dad uses Netscape and doesn't like IE either. I simply prefer it, believe it or not.
My favorite Netscape bug: The one where Navigator starts ignoring all left mouse clicks. It's been there for a _long_, long time.
I don't know what causes this bug, but I get it occasionally as well. This is how I fix it: when it crashes, close all Netscapes and then hit CTRL+ALT+DEL, and you'll notice that Netscape is still running. Select it and hit End Task -- you'll probably have to do it several times for it to die, though.
That's why Microsoft can violate all the standards they want -- no one gives a shit. If there are no standards, none of the markup/plugins/whatever won't look the same across platforms/browsers. If there is a strong standard and everyone follows it, you can safely expect every browser to render nicely across platforms/browsers. Milestone releases show progress, and the nightly builds work exceptionally well for a product that isn't ready.
The average person on the street is the common argument. The APOTS doesn't care about Linux. The APOTS doesn't care about Mozilla/standards. The APOTS loves Microsoft products and uses them because they "work". The APOTS could give a shit. I prefer to take a shit.
Netscape created the JavaScript standard, so maybe it's IE mucking about it. CSS works great in Mozilla. Try for yourself.
2) Let me download just the browser again.
I agree with some of your points. I don't use Composer, but I do use Messenger. I never heard of "Collabra" though. There is a base install, you know, which only includes the browser. (I hate AIM.)
5) Load time counts.
IE is integral to the OS. It loads when Windows loads -- Windows still loads slowly (on my P3 450, at least). I don't think you'd want Netscape integral to the OS as well. (Just more load time at start-up.)
6) Make the interface decent.
See how smooth IE is, attempt to make Navigator look similar. Navigator is too industrial looking for most peoples tastes. This may be harder because M$ has hidden a lot of the API that IE uses (it is undocumented). Netscape can at least try to get Navigator to look close. This is a minor point, but it counts.
To be blunt, I HATE the smooth scrolling. I only use IE for Windows Update, and it still bothers me. I use TweakUI to disable it, but then it's TOO chunky -- two lines or so per down key, which I'm used to the 1 1/2 of Netscape.
Perhaps, but they are very integral. Type in C:\ in an Internet Explorer window. Familiar looking, isn't it? Type a URL in the Explorer window. Behold, it loads. That is Microsoft's defense of having IE built into the OS, that it is part of the shell and everything else. If you have heard of 98lite, which removes IE from Windows 98, its features lists having to use the Windows 95 Explorer due to the Windows 98 Explorer requiring IE.
I can do the same at the Vocational Technical Center I go to, which are Windows 95 machines, but they use Novell NetWare stuff that'll do it -- this isn't the same as Roaming Access Profiles, though. With Roaming Profiles, you can store/retrieve your bookmarks/cookies/almost anything on a HTTP (with Apache module) or LDAP server. What you were referring to meant you had to be somewhere on the network.
Mozilla CSS support is really good. It is standards compliant and renders very nicely. IE is not well-known for standards either--it uses their own version of Java, for example.
Actually, it does tend to take down the shell as well. Remember, IE is now integral to the shell/explorer. Although, most of the time I can safely close it. (I only use it for Windows Update.)
Lynx is too damn cool. I primarily use Linux for console stuff, because I still prefer Windows over X. Mozilla is really nice though, in both Linux/Windows, and pretty stable (I'm running the "browser buster" test right now and it's on pg. 63/100). However, when I am in Windows I use Netscape. I don't like IE. There is a new bug per week, but that's not the reason -- I don't like the way it renders/scrolling. My dad, the non-nerd, prefers Netscape as well.
What does it say that Netscape supports multiple platforms and IE does not? If Microsoft really cared about giving everyone a great browser, they'd surely port it to other platforms and gain a larger userbase -- but no, they want you to use Windows. They want the whole damn industry. Why wouldn't Linux users justify Netscape?
Simply defending/justifying Netscape does not mean I am stuck with it. I use it because I prefer it.
I have tried Opera and I didn't like it. I don't like MDI, and the last time I checked (latest version) it had problems rendering the tables on my.netscape.com. But, IIRC it doesn't support Java.
Don't you see? Windows owns about 85% or so of the PC/Desktop market. IE is included with Windows. The main reason they did this was to push Netscape out of the web browser market, and in the doing found an "innovative" excuse to integrate it with everything that is Windows. With this power and userbase, they can practically dictate web [de-facto] standards. Anything but Windows/IE will not be able to view these pages. Windows can (and IS--Java) violate any standards and make their own, making everything else incompatible. This recent feature on Slashdot proves this point, and it is only the beginning unless they are regulated. Their "shared library", useful or not, is being used as commercial power.
Do you believe that since this is the computer industry the government should not have the right to meddle? A monopoly is a monopoly, standard oil or operating system. The laissez-faire doctrine went out the window a while ago, and it is the government's job to protect the consumer. The judge in this incident has written a detailed 206 page Findings of Fact which lists their anticompetitive behavior and why Microsoft is, in fact, a monopoly. They are not going to pick on anybody with a significant market share -- that is not the case. It is that Microsoft dominates the "Intel-compatible PC operating system" industry, and there is almost 0 competition (in the "relevant market"). It also has a lot to do with the Netscape case and how unfairly Netscape was pushed out of the web browser market, although I believe that it has benefitted from this (now with "Mozilla"), it is regardless anticompetitive practices.
I love free software, but Windows' closed-source IE/Windows implementations are almost de-facto standards because of their huge share in the desktop/common user market. I find it unsettling that they can dictate the web, being IE integral to the operating system. If their share was significantly less, say 50%, they would not be able to do so as efficiently. Open standards, Please!
But, such a small market share would potentially put Domino's out of business. They are both commercial entities and thrive on making money. Therefore, when Pizza Hut completely monopolizes the pizza industry you will be forced to have a Pepsi accompany every Pizza (with an additional price, of course, but will be unnoticeable relative to the price of the pizza).
In the "relevant market", Linux is not a threat to Microsoft. I do not enjoy using X, and it also makes my monitor emit a high-pitched noise (I don't know why, but it didn't happen with my previous monitor), not to mention that it displays fonts horribly (anti-aliasing would be nice), which makes me require using MS Windows whenever I want to browse graphical web pages. Linux, for the most part, attracts only a "segment of the consumer population" (term stolen from the FOF), usually the geeks/nerds.
Hypocrisy aside, do YOU think Linux is a threat to Microsoft? Probability is that you would say no. I like Linux and I think it is powerful, but I only use it for console-based applications, and nothing graphical until there is something that suits my needs (and quits making that noise!), which is, for now, Windows. I find myself booting from one to the other too often, though.
But, seriously, the post you were referring to seemed like "fair criticism," but I guess I'm a biased hypocritical jerk. I do use Microsoft products (in fact, I am right now), but I don't agree with their practices, and I don't agree with their so-called "innovation" -- rebooting if you so much as change an option in networking (not to mention requiring the Windows CD-ROM each time as well), having to reformat to fix unexplained errors, not being able to use Microsoft's closed implementations in other OSes, and violating standards (Java -- Every other browser other than IE would be incompatible with Microsoft's version of Java).
My dad who does not know much about OSes and the like or the politics of computing also is puzzled with the constant blue screens and "illegal operations." I believed the first time he saw that he asked me if I was doing something illegal on the computer.
Re:That's apt-get *dist-upgrade*...
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Debian Freezing
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... and it's apt-get *upgrade* for those that already have potato. I'm sure that's what he was implying.
IE is faster and more stable according to everyone I know. Nice of you to list a product that doesn't yet exist though.
Does too. Milestones! The latest Milestone release is pretty stable, and its pretty nice. I prefer to compile my own and not build in the debugging code. And, according to me, Netscape is faster (this has nothing to do with Open Source zealotry, because Netscape isn't open source), and I've never used IE regularly (my dad agrees, and he doesn't bother with the computer politics).
`find . | xargs grep -i fuck' (-name is not required if you want all files) will also create a separate grep process for each file. I prefer `grep -i fuck *' (one process).
I learned about Linux on IRC (first through shell accounts before actually installing it myself), and maybe it being open source wasn't the big part of it, but I know it was at least a factor. I used it to compile eggdrop and maybe a few other programs, and I thought that to be fun (and I still do). Not to mention the cool IRC client, BitchX.
Slashdot Mirror
It's a work in progress. I agree it looks nice. They changed the interface a bit, so download a nightly build and try it out. I think it was said that Netscape 5 will support the latest version of Java.
Actually, when he referred to the "Application Barrier to Entry" he meant the number of applications and variety that are available on other operating systems, which Windows has vastly more.
You said earlier that Linux is "ancient technology". I have doubts that you have ever used it, and are here just to spread nonsensical FUD. I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft paid people to go around and do this. Oh, let me ask, what are these applications you're talking about?
Why does everyone assume that a Netscape user only uses Netscape because it is the only other choice? I use Netscape because I like it better. I think it is faster than IE. I don't care what anyone says. My dad uses Netscape and doesn't like IE either. I simply prefer it, believe it or not.
I don't know what causes this bug, but I get it occasionally as well. This is how I fix it: when it crashes, close all Netscapes and then hit CTRL+ALT+DEL, and you'll notice that Netscape is still running. Select it and hit End Task -- you'll probably have to do it several times for it to die, though.
The average person on the street is the common argument. The APOTS doesn't care about Linux. The APOTS doesn't care about Mozilla/standards. The APOTS loves Microsoft products and uses them because they "work". The APOTS could give a shit. I prefer to take a shit.
Slashdot and Freshmeat both use tables for layout.
Netscape created the JavaScript standard, so maybe it's IE mucking about it. CSS works great in Mozilla. Try for yourself.
I agree with some of your points. I don't use Composer, but I do use Messenger. I never heard of "Collabra" though. There is a base install, you know, which only includes the browser. (I hate AIM.)
IE is integral to the OS. It loads when Windows loads -- Windows still loads slowly (on my P3 450, at least). I don't think you'd want Netscape integral to the OS as well. (Just more load time at start-up.)
To be blunt, I HATE the smooth scrolling. I only use IE for Windows Update, and it still bothers me. I use TweakUI to disable it, but then it's TOO chunky -- two lines or so per down key, which I'm used to the 1 1/2 of Netscape.
Perhaps, but they are very integral. Type in C:\ in an Internet Explorer window. Familiar looking, isn't it? Type a URL in the Explorer window. Behold, it loads. That is Microsoft's defense of having IE built into the OS, that it is part of the shell and everything else. If you have heard of 98lite, which removes IE from Windows 98, its features lists having to use the Windows 95 Explorer due to the Windows 98 Explorer requiring IE.
I can do the same at the Vocational Technical Center I go to, which are Windows 95 machines, but they use Novell NetWare stuff that'll do it -- this isn't the same as Roaming Access Profiles, though. With Roaming Profiles, you can store/retrieve your bookmarks/cookies/almost anything on a HTTP (with Apache module) or LDAP server. What you were referring to meant you had to be somewhere on the network.
Mozilla CSS support is really good. It is standards compliant and renders very nicely. IE is not well-known for standards either--it uses their own version of Java, for example.
Actually, it does tend to take down the shell as well. Remember, IE is now integral to the shell/explorer. Although, most of the time I can safely close it. (I only use it for Windows Update.)
Going through "Internet Options", I don't see Roaming Access Profiles anywhere. Is this a secret hidden IE feature, or only if you bought Win98 SE?
What does it say that Netscape supports multiple platforms and IE does not? If Microsoft really cared about giving everyone a great browser, they'd surely port it to other platforms and gain a larger userbase -- but no, they want you to use Windows. They want the whole damn industry. Why wouldn't Linux users justify Netscape?
Simply defending/justifying Netscape does not mean I am stuck with it. I use it because I prefer it.
No FUD please. Thank you.
I have tried Opera and I didn't like it. I don't like MDI, and the last time I checked (latest version) it had problems rendering the tables on my.netscape.com. But, IIRC it doesn't support Java.
How do you prevent it from loading the "goddamn Netscape ADVERTISEMENT"?
Don't you see? Windows owns about 85% or so of the PC/Desktop market. IE is included with Windows. The main reason they did this was to push Netscape out of the web browser market, and in the doing found an "innovative" excuse to integrate it with everything that is Windows. With this power and userbase, they can practically dictate web [de-facto] standards. Anything but Windows/IE will not be able to view these pages. Windows can (and IS--Java) violate any standards and make their own, making everything else incompatible. This recent feature on Slashdot proves this point, and it is only the beginning unless they are regulated. Their "shared library", useful or not, is being used as commercial power.
I love free software, but Windows' closed-source IE/Windows implementations are almost de-facto standards because of their huge share in the desktop/common user market. I find it unsettling that they can dictate the web, being IE integral to the operating system. If their share was significantly less, say 50%, they would not be able to do so as efficiently. Open standards, Please!
But, such a small market share would potentially put Domino's out of business. They are both commercial entities and thrive on making money. Therefore, when Pizza Hut completely monopolizes the pizza industry you will be forced to have a Pepsi accompany every Pizza (with an additional price, of course, but will be unnoticeable relative to the price of the pizza).
Hypocrisy aside, do YOU think Linux is a threat to Microsoft? Probability is that you would say no. I like Linux and I think it is powerful, but I only use it for console-based applications, and nothing graphical until there is something that suits my needs (and quits making that noise!), which is, for now, Windows. I find myself booting from one to the other too often, though.
But, seriously, the post you were referring to seemed like "fair criticism," but I guess I'm a biased hypocritical jerk. I do use Microsoft products (in fact, I am right now), but I don't agree with their practices, and I don't agree with their so-called "innovation" -- rebooting if you so much as change an option in networking (not to mention requiring the Windows CD-ROM each time as well), having to reformat to fix unexplained errors, not being able to use Microsoft's closed implementations in other OSes, and violating standards (Java -- Every other browser other than IE would be incompatible with Microsoft's version of Java).
My dad who does not know much about OSes and the like or the politics of computing also is puzzled with the constant blue screens and "illegal operations." I believed the first time he saw that he asked me if I was doing something illegal on the computer.
... and it's apt-get *upgrade* for those that already have potato. I'm sure that's what he was implying.
Does too. Milestones! The latest Milestone release is pretty stable, and its pretty nice. I prefer to compile my own and not build in the debugging code. And, according to me, Netscape is faster (this has nothing to do with Open Source zealotry, because Netscape isn't open source), and I've never used IE regularly (my dad agrees, and he doesn't bother with the computer politics).
`find . | xargs grep -i fuck' (-name is not required if you want all files) will also create a separate grep process for each file. I prefer `grep -i fuck *' (one process).
I learned about Linux on IRC (first through shell accounts before actually installing it myself), and maybe it being open source wasn't the big part of it, but I know it was at least a factor. I used it to compile eggdrop and maybe a few other programs, and I thought that to be fun (and I still do). Not to mention the cool IRC client, BitchX.