He sent in people to study the situation, they came back with a figure of 1 Million Infantry in the field alone would be needed. And that doesn't even consider the support they'd need: about 20:1 I think is the ratio of most military actions, though I could be wrong and it's 10:1 or 5:1 or something.
Moreover, they knew the threat of a monolithic Oriental Communist Empire was a boondoggle. And so, Eisenhower took steps to keep us out of the region, and just ignore the damn French whining. And then came a man called Kennedy...
Sigh. I don't know what to make of Jack Kennedy. With Cuba, his ignoring the hawks certainly saved the American fleet,(Cuba had the tactical nukes ready) and possibly prevented WW III, but with Vietnam, he pissed away probably as many lives as he directly saved... Oh well, if you look at the history of Nations, they tend to go along flexing their muscles until they run into something too big for them to handle. Britain: The Great War. Germany, Japan: America. America : Vietnam. If you look at number of casualties, our brick wall wasn't that painful. I still don't know if Russia has hit its wall,(Afghanistan? Chechnya? The next 20 years of Chechnya?), but I think China's will be Taiwan, if they aren't careful. But relations have been thawing, so maybe if the world's lucky, it'll be internal tensions, or east Turkestan or something...
Well, #1 sounds pretty damn shady if ya bothered to check his link, esp. since pinochet was indicted by war crimes in the past two years, while he was in Britain IIRC
2)Our efforts in Columbia are a continuing source of frustration and embarassement. Even the Army Times had an article of this guy trained by US troops who went on to become first a war hero, then a human rights violater. Now, how the hell do you screen for morality, the Times ask, if even their own country can't decide if a guy is a hero or a criminal. Frankly, being a Columbian soldier is probably as difficult and thankless a task as being an American one in Vietnam, and it's our drug policies that allow such a corrupting amount of wealth to be earned by the drug lords. The Average American finances both sides of the drug war, with recreational purchases funding the bad guys and taxes going to financial aid for the good guys...and the foot soldiers and peasant farmers get caught in between.
3)Hey, don't knock the UN! Let's see- World Wars started under League of Nations: 1. World Wars started under UN: 0. Granted, nukes have more to do w/ it, but they already have a better track record;)
4)Well, dammit, I can't argue w/ apathy. If you're just gonna dismiss our 'little mistakes,' then why are you getting so hot and bothered when others overlook our oh-so-large contributions to world happiness. You can't demand praise, but you can ask for and recieve constructive criticism. Why not try it?
Frankly, whenever I think about it, I get really upset w/ America. And yes, I'm American. Like, why is it that we don't do more? And forget about any foreign aid, and whatnot. I'm talking appreciable percentages of the American economy. Most Americans will live and die in America, probably w/o setting foot in a third-world or even second world country. Hell, most Americans won't go anywhere they don't speak English. And when asked about what they do to help, they'll shrug and say something about 'leave that up to government', or worse 'can't do anything about it', or worst of all 'wouldn't do any good. They'd just have more kids'...
Jesus Christ! How about Tithing? Could you imagine what 10% of the American economy could do for the world? I'm sure it would create a hell of a birth control education program, if you just decided to work on that end of the problem, in a bleakly cynical way. We could provide a dozen cities with clean water for everyone each year. Housing for them all simultaneously. Continue for a decade, and discover a cure for malaria with the pocket change. The acts of charity possible boggle the mind.
But no, we'd rather spend money on new televisions, or, if we're really pious, a new church, probably w/ stadium seating instead of those old uncomfortable pews. Add a few cup holders too, if you don't mind, and maybe a concession stand or two. sigh....
I guess I'm just fed up w/ selfish human nature. No other nation would really do any better, really, if they were given our geolographic isolation and our wealth. And they probably wouldn't do any worse, if they had the same roots in western civ. And ironically, we have a blot on our human rights record compared to even the other western civilizations: the death penalty. As a cynic, I think there are people who, as the southerners so elegantly put it, "need killing", but in practice, only poor people get the death penalty. No millionaire, no matter how depraved his acts of violence are, will ever be executed. He might not even be convicted. (*cough* O.J. *cough*) And in any case, Europe thinks we're crazy for having the death penalty. It gives us a human rights record as black as Israel, or worse is some eyes. And confuses the hell out of our friends. (brits, canucks)
Responding to an AC noting policies toward Native Americans in response to someone noting China's despotism Disclaimer: I am not Native American, or even partially decended from them. I just have high respect for the idea of poetic justice.
Hey, anyone wanna see if we can get The Hermitage (Andrew Jackson's home) turned over to the Cherokee? That rat-bastard single-handedly created the Trail of Tears, and violated his oath of office (to uphold the Constitution) in doing so. From a website on the Trail of Tears.
The Cherokees successfully challenged Georgia in the U.S. Supreme Court. President Jackson, when hearing of the Court's decision, reportedly said, "[Chief Justice] John Marshall has made his decision; let him enforce it now if he can."
Worst President we ever had. And let's not even discuss his competence, or lack thereof, esp. regarding the nation's economy. Yet Tennessee schools still take kids on tours of The Hermitage, like he's someone to be proud of, being President and a Tennesseean, instead of a blight on our national character. How does one start a campaign? That home of his needs to be burned to the ground, and the land given over to the Cherokee. Whether they build a museum or a casino, I don't care, but any memorial to him should not stand in the purported 'Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.'
Their extremely limited launch capacity. They might have as many as 30 ICBMs that can reach the US. That's just enough to put them in the Superpower Club, but even a minimally effective SDI would take them out of it.
Well, if we did get an SDI, then they would just pump up their ICBM production and warhead production, to the point where any SDI became inneffective. Then Russia would get nervous, having a neighbor w/ enough nukes to sterilize their country, decide to hold onto their ICBM's, and the whole START treaties would be put on hold. The only positive outcome I see is if this generation of 'Star Wars' does what the previous generation did, or threatened to do: spend the Commies dry. Of course, it helped that Reagan was crazy enough to scare the Russians into pissing themselves, and that Russia never really developed its civilian infrastructure. China is pushing domestic development hard, since stealing from a rich country is so much more profitable than raping a poor one. And even I'm not that scared of Bush, and my sister was preaching worst case 'Roe vs Wade stuff' at me...(make no mistake, a true turnover of Roe vs Wade is a scary thought...My Mom had a friend in med school die from back alley abortion stuff... But even Bush isn't that big a jerk.)
So, is SDI cost effective? I dunno. If it's really just to block 'rogue' states, then the best way to diffuse tensions is to offer to share it with the other big nations... needless to say, we ain't offering to share with China or Russia. So, it's really just going to fuel an arms race, IMHO. I'm divided over the merits of an arms race (richest nation wins! but, are we still going to be?), but I'd have to be cautiously negative. Unless they do another Tianamen (which was partially a mistake on Deng's part... some people misrepresented what the students were demanding, i.e., revolution vs reforms... those people responsible weren't excoriated, but their careers are now in smaller dominions) I'd say, no more money on space lasers. Zap tritium and work on the fusion problem instead.
Wow. I've spent more time responding to a troll than I should. Over an hour, I think. Oh, and yes, that last remark about space lasers is flippant, I know the current thought is anti-missle missle systems and whatnot, but it captures my mood and opinion. Bye now.
The side-effect of all this happening is that by fighting to gain the legal high ground based on Intellectual Property, Copyrights, Trademarks, and Patents, we end up with a
society that is being transformed at the very foundations: language. We are all victims, even the people in these corporations, of an undermining public speech.
(Emphasis mine)
You know, a cool history prof of mine said that one of the signs of a Rennaissance is a basic concern w/ language: the actual meaning and use of words, etc. I didn't pay fully enough intention to the class, so I can't remember the specifics, but the Rennaissance was a time when interest in language, specifically Latin and Greek, flourished. And interest in the intellectual tools of rational debate and discussion grew, too.
What does this all mean? I dunno. But I do know that the current attitude towards words is pretty flippant: they mean what you make 'em mean, and you can bend truth like a spoon, if you choose your words carefully. Look at the name for our current age: Post-Modern??!? WTF does that mean?? It's getting to the point where I feel society is going to backlash, hard. The pendulum can swing only so far...either that, or you end up in a Dark Age, and I'm not sure we're gonna let that happen. I mean, unless global catastrophe strikes, like it did w/ the Romans (plague, poor harvests, harsh winters and other foreign invaders driving in the barbarians), there's enough people working to sustain and advance civilization. And even when the Romans collapsed, the Arabs were around to preserve a good bit of their knowledge. So, I'm cautiously optimistic, even if I think the worst case means my grandkids might have to learn Mandarin to live in the 'civilized' world...
The Rennaissance also gave birth to the idea of Nationalism. I dunno if that was an independent development or if it was related to the study of language.(quick quiz: name some characteristics of a nation-state-- I can't remember the others, but I do remember "one unified language"... anyone taking Rennaissance History who can help out?) But in any case, I look forward to whatever development comes out of this... Internationalism? (please, please, please. I wanna see what happens when God 'wins' his game of Civ Omega...)
Why are the humans the only species to periodically engage in the mass destruction of ourselves? Hmmm, must be our nature. Can't be the socialogical factors contributing to our behavior, or the subconscious influences we've recieved from anything and everything over the years.
Actually, if you had ever read The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond, (review here) you would find that even chimps attempt genocide in their own way, (one band systematically tracking down and attempting to kill individuals of another band), but they are limited in their abilities to do so..i.e., they don't have spears to stab with or even clubs to help them beat other chimps to death.
So yes, AFAIK it is our nature to commit attrocities. We're just better at than chimps. Human nature can be incredibly ugly at times. But some degree of kindness is 'human nature' too, so there's still some hope....
There's an old Army saying:
"Amateurs think tactics. Professionals think Logistics."
How does that apply to the weird confusion of ethics and economics? Well, all other things being equal, a intelligently-regulated free market increases the standard of living by about an order of magnitude. If you believe that a high standard of living is a 'good' thing, then one has to espouse such a market economy.
OTOH, the values associated with capitalism are one dimensional, with the preaching of the virtues of self-interest and the the wonders of the pursuit of wealth. Altruism per se is denigrated, and too often the most profitable course for yourself is harmful to others. (see Nestle for the classic example) So, what's the solution? We need free markets to feed and clothe ourselves, but they work orthogonal to morality in the best case, and work against everything society holds sacred in the worst case...
The real problem is the Corporate Extremists: those who say the only salvation lies in the almighty buck, and the removal of all evil regulation. Then progress will continue on an exponential increase, solving all these transient problems like pollution and resource depletion. Their god is the dollar, whom they rely upon for the salvation of the planet. These guys are as whacked out as any religious nutcase, the kind that make the good people of the churches/mosques/temples of the world cringe. We need a term for them, a simple one-word condemnation like we have for religious nutcases(fanatic). We have a word to insult environmentalists,(tree-hugger), and even a word for the madmen who 'spike' trees,(eco-terrorist) but no word for the well dressed killers in our corporate boardrooms... just because they don't get their hands dirty personally doesn't mean they aren't as evil as any eco-terrorist... and they can cause a lot more deaths, anyways, just by the power of logistics: hundreds of millions of dollars in short-sighted exploitation
My DNA is of no use for crime prevention, and I resent the implication that it is needed.
Stop me before I steal/rape/kill/infringe upon copyright again! Or, taking another tack, do you know who you'll be in 20 years? I think the future me will be a lawful citizen, but I could be wrong...I better stop that hypothetical maniac me! And we haven't even touched on the subject of psychiatric disorders and evil twins/clones yet...
>> I'll gladly give a DNA sample if asked,
>> if it means getting criminals off the streets.
> sadly, the only thing to do with people like this
> is line them up against a wall and shoot them.
WOOHOO! And do it before they have that database, so you won't get caught! And, since they're dead, there won't be anyone around to build said database!
> they're too stupid to even look out for their own
> good. in fact, they're so stupid that they are a
> menace to public safety.
Really, there are segments of the populace that need killing far more than the well intentioned idiots...unless your real plan is to reduce the earth's population by 90%...I see why you posted AC, but I don't understand how you got modded up to 1...
Slashdot Mirror
Moreover, they knew the threat of a monolithic Oriental Communist Empire was a boondoggle. And so, Eisenhower took steps to keep us out of the region, and just ignore the damn French whining. And then came a man called Kennedy...
Sigh. I don't know what to make of Jack Kennedy. With Cuba, his ignoring the hawks certainly saved the American fleet,(Cuba had the tactical nukes ready) and possibly prevented WW III, but with Vietnam, he pissed away probably as many lives as he directly saved... Oh well, if you look at the history of Nations, they tend to go along flexing their muscles until they run into something too big for them to handle.
Britain: The Great War.
Germany, Japan: America.
America : Vietnam.
If you look at number of casualties, our brick wall wasn't that painful. I still don't know if Russia has hit its wall,(Afghanistan? Chechnya? The next 20 years of Chechnya?), but I think China's will be Taiwan, if they aren't careful. But relations have been thawing, so maybe if the world's lucky, it'll be internal tensions, or east Turkestan or something...
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2)Our efforts in Columbia are a continuing source of frustration and embarassement. Even the Army Times had an article of this guy trained by US troops who went on to become first a war hero, then a human rights violater. Now, how the hell do you screen for morality, the Times ask, if even their own country can't decide if a guy is a hero or a criminal. Frankly, being a Columbian soldier is probably as difficult and thankless a task as being an American one in Vietnam, and it's our drug policies that allow such a corrupting amount of wealth to be earned by the drug lords. The Average American finances both sides of the drug war, with recreational purchases funding the bad guys and taxes going to financial aid for the good guys...and the foot soldiers and peasant farmers get caught in between.
3)Hey, don't knock the UN! Let's see- World Wars started under League of Nations: 1. World Wars started under UN: 0. Granted, nukes have more to do w/ it, but they already have a better track record;)
4)Well, dammit, I can't argue w/ apathy. If you're just gonna dismiss our 'little mistakes,' then why are you getting so hot and bothered when others overlook our oh-so-large contributions to world happiness. You can't demand praise, but you can ask for and recieve constructive criticism. Why not try it?
Frankly, whenever I think about it, I get really upset w/ America. And yes, I'm American. Like, why is it that we don't do more? And forget about any foreign aid, and whatnot. I'm talking appreciable percentages of the American economy. Most Americans will live and die in America, probably w/o setting foot in a third-world or even second world country. Hell, most Americans won't go anywhere they don't speak English. And when asked about what they do to help, they'll shrug and say something about 'leave that up to government', or worse 'can't do anything about it', or worst of all 'wouldn't do any good. They'd just have more kids'...
Jesus Christ! How about Tithing? Could you imagine what 10% of the American economy could do for the world? I'm sure it would create a hell of a birth control education program, if you just decided to work on that end of the problem, in a bleakly cynical way. We could provide a dozen cities with clean water for everyone each year. Housing for them all simultaneously. Continue for a decade, and discover a cure for malaria with the pocket change. The acts of charity possible boggle the mind.
But no, we'd rather spend money on new televisions, or, if we're really pious, a new church, probably w/ stadium seating instead of those old uncomfortable pews. Add a few cup holders too, if you don't mind, and maybe a concession stand or two. sigh....
I guess I'm just fed up w/ selfish human nature. No other nation would really do any better, really, if they were given our geolographic isolation and our wealth. And they probably wouldn't do any worse, if they had the same roots in western civ. And ironically, we have a blot on our human rights record compared to even the other western civilizations: the death penalty. As a cynic, I think there are people who, as the southerners so elegantly put it, "need killing", but in practice, only poor people get the death penalty. No millionaire, no matter how depraved his acts of violence are, will ever be executed. He might not even be convicted. (*cough* O.J. *cough*) And in any case, Europe thinks we're crazy for having the death penalty. It gives us a human rights record as black as Israel, or worse is some eyes. And confuses the hell out of our friends. (brits, canucks)
-------
Disclaimer: I am not Native American, or even partially decended from them. I just have high respect for the idea of poetic justice.
Hey, anyone wanna see if we can get The Hermitage (Andrew Jackson's home) turned over to the Cherokee? That rat-bastard single-handedly created the Trail of Tears, and violated his oath of office (to uphold the Constitution) in doing so. From a website on the Trail of Tears.
Worst President we ever had. And let's not even discuss his competence, or lack thereof, esp. regarding the nation's economy. Yet Tennessee schools still take kids on tours of The Hermitage, like he's someone to be proud of, being President and a Tennesseean, instead of a blight on our national character. How does one start a campaign? That home of his needs to be burned to the ground, and the land given over to the Cherokee. Whether they build a museum or a casino, I don't care, but any memorial to him should not stand in the purported 'Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.'-------
Well, if we did get an SDI, then they would just pump up their ICBM production and warhead production, to the point where any SDI became inneffective. Then Russia would get nervous, having a neighbor w/ enough nukes to sterilize their country, decide to hold onto their ICBM's, and the whole START treaties would be put on hold. The only positive outcome I see is if this generation of 'Star Wars' does what the previous generation did, or threatened to do: spend the Commies dry. Of course, it helped that Reagan was crazy enough to scare the Russians into pissing themselves, and that Russia never really developed its civilian infrastructure. China is pushing domestic development hard, since stealing from a rich country is so much more profitable than raping a poor one. And even I'm not that scared of Bush, and my sister was preaching worst case 'Roe vs Wade stuff' at me...(make no mistake, a true turnover of Roe vs Wade is a scary thought...My Mom had a friend in med school die from back alley abortion stuff... But even Bush isn't that big a jerk.)
So, is SDI cost effective? I dunno. If it's really just to block 'rogue' states, then the best way to diffuse tensions is to offer to share it with the other big nations... needless to say, we ain't offering to share with China or Russia. So, it's really just going to fuel an arms race, IMHO. I'm divided over the merits of an arms race (richest nation wins! but, are we still going to be?), but I'd have to be cautiously negative. Unless they do another Tianamen (which was partially a mistake on Deng's part... some people misrepresented what the students were demanding, i.e., revolution vs reforms... those people responsible weren't excoriated, but their careers are now in smaller dominions) I'd say, no more money on space lasers. Zap tritium and work on the fusion problem instead.
Wow. I've spent more time responding to a troll than I should. Over an hour, I think. Oh, and yes, that last remark about space lasers is flippant, I know the current thought is anti-missle missle systems and whatnot, but it captures my mood and opinion. Bye now.
-------
You know, a cool history prof of mine said that one of the signs of a Rennaissance is a basic concern w/ language: the actual meaning and use of words, etc. I didn't pay fully enough intention to the class, so I can't remember the specifics, but the Rennaissance was a time when interest in language, specifically Latin and Greek, flourished. And interest in the intellectual tools of rational debate and discussion grew, too.
What does this all mean? I dunno. But I do know that the current attitude towards words is pretty flippant: they mean what you make 'em mean, and you can bend truth like a spoon, if you choose your words carefully. Look at the name for our current age: Post-Modern??!? WTF does that mean?? It's getting to the point where I feel society is going to backlash, hard. The pendulum can swing only so far...either that, or you end up in a Dark Age, and I'm not sure we're gonna let that happen. I mean, unless global catastrophe strikes, like it did w/ the Romans (plague, poor harvests, harsh winters and other foreign invaders driving in the barbarians), there's enough people working to sustain and advance civilization. And even when the Romans collapsed, the Arabs were around to preserve a good bit of their knowledge. So, I'm cautiously optimistic, even if I think the worst case means my grandkids might have to learn Mandarin to live in the 'civilized' world...
The Rennaissance also gave birth to the idea of Nationalism. I dunno if that was an independent development or if it was related to the study of language.(quick quiz: name some characteristics of a nation-state-- I can't remember the others, but I do remember "one unified language"... anyone taking Rennaissance History who can help out?) But in any case, I look forward to whatever development comes out of this... Internationalism? (please, please, please. I wanna see what happens when God 'wins' his game of Civ Omega...)
-------
So yes, AFAIK it is our nature to commit attrocities. We're just better at than chimps. Human nature can be incredibly ugly at times. But some degree of kindness is 'human nature' too, so there's still some hope....
-------
There's an old Army saying:
"Amateurs think tactics.
Professionals think Logistics."
How does that apply to the weird confusion of ethics and economics? Well, all other things being equal, a intelligently-regulated free market increases the standard of living by about an order of magnitude. If you believe that a high standard of living is a 'good' thing, then one has to espouse such a market economy.
OTOH, the values associated with capitalism are one dimensional, with the preaching of the virtues of self-interest and the the wonders of the pursuit of wealth. Altruism per se is denigrated, and too often the most profitable course for yourself is harmful to others. (see Nestle for the classic example) So, what's the solution? We need free markets to feed and clothe ourselves, but they work orthogonal to morality in the best case, and work against everything society holds sacred in the worst case...
The real problem is the Corporate Extremists: those who say the only salvation lies in the almighty buck, and the removal of all evil regulation. Then progress will continue on an exponential increase, solving all these transient problems like pollution and resource depletion. Their god is the dollar, whom they rely upon for the salvation of the planet. These guys are as whacked out as any religious nutcase, the kind that make the good people of the churches/mosques/temples of the world cringe. We need a term for them, a simple one-word condemnation like we have for religious nutcases(fanatic). We have a word to insult environmentalists,(tree-hugger), and even a word for the madmen who 'spike' trees,(eco-terrorist) but no word for the well dressed killers in our corporate boardrooms... just because they don't get their hands dirty personally doesn't mean they aren't as evil as any eco-terrorist... and they can cause a lot more deaths, anyways, just by the power of logistics: hundreds of millions of dollars in short-sighted exploitation
-------
-------
>> if it means getting criminals off the streets.
> sadly, the only thing to do with people like this
> is line them up against a wall and shoot them.
WOOHOO! And do it before they have that database, so you won't get caught! And, since they're dead, there won't be anyone around to build said database!
> they're too stupid to even look out for their own> good. in fact, they're so stupid that they are a
> menace to public safety.
Really, there are segments of the populace that need killing far more than the well intentioned idiots...unless your real plan is to reduce the earth's population by 90%...I see why you posted AC, but I don't understand how you got modded up to 1...
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