No. the synapse interstice (the space between terminals buttons and dendrites) is a constant, or almost. It's just a required space to free some neurotransmitters. You can't change that, and it does'nt really matter for bandwith.
For the thing about many neurons working together, that's for an analysis purpose, not for a transmission purpose.
Nerves only send impulse, in a binary fashion, but the place you score: yes, the variations are made by messing with the frequency. When you sense a lite pression on your thumb, the nerve send the influx with a long delay between them. But when you place your thumb in the direct path of an incomming hammer, the signal will be send at about max frequency.
I approximated the bandwith to 300bit/s having in mind we must keep the lowest lag possible. Someone before me said in a 2 comment upper discution "A truck full of CDs have alot of bandwith", wich is right;)
We could modulate the frequency of the nerve to upgrade the bandwith, but augmenting an already huge lag time.
If we modulate, the only limit we have is the imprecision of the inlux itself (or the instrument mesuring it, wichever is the highest). I think the imprecision for an influx of 4ms would be ±2ms, since it's half the total time. so, we could modulate every 2ms...
That mean we would have to develop some kind of modem, sending the most used character, in the most used language, with no delay between firing, the second with a 2ms lag, the third with a 4ms lag, etc... (but this is a cheap, no compression method)
The only thing I don't know: Is it more efficient to send a bit every 4ms or sending a modulated signal made to compress and optimize...
That is no longer my field...
Is somebody able to break the 300bit/sec binary maximum?? Maybe USR should specialyse in neuron-fiber, accoustic modems;)
The nerves carry the information from one end to the other (using a chemical debalancing method to carry the influx). There's nothing electric in there! it's a complex thing, but to put it simple, the nerve is charged with negative proteins and phosphate ions (not electrons, but chemicals particles:Ions). When the impulse goes on, the Na+ ions exterior to the neurons goes in, then putting the neuron "voltage" to a positive stage. Then, some pumps take the Na+ outside. This is just a VERY simple way to put it...
When it reaches the end of the neuron, the terminals buttons get the info, and they free some neurotransmitters. Normally, these chemical substances get to the dendrites of the next neuron (that's a synapse), wich get the data and might fire to carry that data. When a neuron reach a muscle, it's about the same reaction. The muscles have receptors for some specific chemical, which are released by the neurons transferring the influx to the muscle. So: when the signal reach the neuron/muscle connection, the neurons release some chemicals, and the muscle react by contracting.
Death is a weird thing, because it can be due to various thing;). The fact that dead peoples' muscles can still contract, is because the neurons are still alive (they can last as long as they have energy, oxygen and maintenance chemicals), and so are the muscles. By stimulating a nerve somewhere on a corpse, you have a chance of provoquing a reaction resulting in a muscular contraction.
---KEbekoauis 2.3 encoded message folow------ Kool, toé-too té du kaBec! C popire icitte, pis c chouette de jaser biologie. Au fette, ya tu des groupes d'usager Linux au Québec, ca fa un boutte que j'en charche un... ---------------------------------------------
Like I said, The frequency of the fastest (in frequency) nerves is about 200 to 300Hz. Which mean 300 up & down per second. So the bitrate is 300bit/sec (or 37.5bytes/second), with all the disadventages of keeping it alive, and the lag it cause due to is organic nature and the chemical way it works (explained in the previous comment).
Yep, you CAN'T make a signal both way. A fibre, one way only. It must move from the dendrites to the terminals buttons (your cell have a "head" and "foot"). You can't reverse the signal.
---Jérôme "I hope I won't forget that at the exam!" Marchand
I'm currently attending some very specialized nerology classes (I'm a future surgeon!), and I got answers (not only suppositions).
Someone said before that a nerve is like an optic fiber, Wrong!
The nerve is a binary device: it can only transmit a voltage difference (wich is made by the K+/Na+ doors & pumps). At normal state, the nerve will have a -70mV potential. When it's excited up to -55mV, the rection of the doors is unstopable and the potential go up to -30mV. After, the nerve just repolarize itself to -55mV, goes into an Hyperpolarisation (-90mV), and come back to normal. Here's an ASCII graph to explain:
This whole process cannot be modulated: It's on or off, you can't mess with the voltage of the reaction. So the signal is binary: 1 or 0.
You'll see too that the time of the whole process, before it can be done again, is about 4ms, which mean low BitRate, and a lag of about 1-2ms minimum (before it reach the top of the curve).
The fastest nerves have a frequency of about 200Hz to 300Hz, wich mean that on a single fiber, you can only do 300bps MAX (remember those accoustic modems?)
The next problems with nerves as a data transport: they're slow. The fastest nerves can go at about 280mph (wich is only a little faster than a F-1). This mean that if you carry data over 130m of distance, you'll get a 1000ms lag!
Too: Your network will be limited to a 1 meter cable. The longest nerves (in the legs) are about 1 meter long, and if you plan putting some of them together, you add some lag time when they interact (about 2-4ms)
Other problem I see with nerves: they're alive. You need to feed them in nutriments, oxygen and oligoelements (most K/Na/Ca). This mean putting blood vessels along them. But you'll need the nevroglious cells!! For normal nerves, only Schwann cells are required, but you'll need to be sure they're in large number enough to produce the myelin gain. You'll need to feed them too.
The last one: nerves don't regenerate, and they don't reproduce. So, if you go to the top 300bps for too long, your cells might dies, and they'll nerver be replaced. The axon (the long tail) CAN regenerate, but it take time (some months). If one of the cells die, you can say good bye to your device (or replace THE faulty nerve, and hope that no others will die for the next hour).
All the numbers said here are optimals. You shouldn't dream of a 1meter long, 4msMin.Time, 300Hz, 280mph nerve, it won't happen. You can have one (or maybe two) of the optimals factor, but you'll be lucky. Don't even speculate numbers for the "Perfect nerve", it just isn't real.
Unless you want to imbed something into someone, mess with copper and optic, leave nerves to neurosurgeons and bioengineers.
PS: If you have ANY question related to what I said, or you think that something is wrong in my declarations, feel free to drop me an E-Mail at spamforbid@netrevolution.com ! I'll be happy to hear/reply!
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No. the synapse interstice (the space between terminals buttons and dendrites) is a constant, or almost. It's just a required space to free some neurotransmitters. You can't change that, and it does'nt really matter for bandwith.
;)
;)
For the thing about many neurons working together, that's for an analysis purpose, not for a transmission purpose.
Nerves only send impulse, in a binary fashion, but the place you score: yes, the variations are made by messing with the frequency. When you sense a lite pression on your thumb, the nerve send the influx with a long delay between them. But when you place your thumb in the direct path of an incomming hammer, the signal will be send at about max frequency.
I approximated the bandwith to 300bit/s having in mind we must keep the lowest lag possible. Someone before me said in a 2 comment upper discution "A truck full of CDs have alot of bandwith", wich is right
We could modulate the frequency of the nerve to upgrade the bandwith, but augmenting an already huge lag time.
If we modulate, the only limit we have is the imprecision of the inlux itself (or the instrument mesuring it, wichever is the highest). I think the imprecision for an influx of 4ms would be ±2ms, since it's half the total time. so, we could modulate every 2ms...
That mean we would have to develop some kind of modem, sending the most used character, in the most used language, with no delay between firing, the second with a 2ms lag, the third with a 4ms lag, etc... (but this is a cheap, no compression method)
The only thing I don't know: Is it more efficient to send a bit every 4ms or sending a modulated signal made to compress and optimize...
That is no longer my field...
Is somebody able to break the 300bit/sec binary maximum?? Maybe USR should specialyse in neuron-fiber, accoustic modems
--Jérôme "Bid" Marchand
The nerves carry the information from one end to the other (using a chemical debalancing method to carry the influx). There's nothing electric in there! it's a complex thing, but to put it simple, the nerve is charged with negative proteins and phosphate ions (not electrons, but chemicals particles:Ions). When the impulse goes on, the Na+ ions exterior to the neurons goes in, then putting the neuron "voltage" to a positive stage. Then, some pumps take the Na+ outside.
;). The fact that dead peoples' muscles can still contract, is because the neurons are still alive (they can last as long as they have energy, oxygen and maintenance chemicals), and so are the muscles. By stimulating a nerve somewhere on a corpse, you have a chance of provoquing a reaction resulting in a muscular contraction.
This is just a VERY simple way to put it...
When it reaches the end of the neuron, the terminals buttons get the info, and they free some neurotransmitters. Normally, these chemical substances get to the dendrites of the next neuron (that's a synapse), wich get the data and might fire to carry that data.
When a neuron reach a muscle, it's about the same reaction. The muscles have receptors for some specific chemical, which are released by the neurons transferring the influx to the muscle.
So: when the signal reach the neuron/muscle connection, the neurons release some chemicals, and the muscle react by contracting.
Death is a weird thing, because it can be due to various thing
---KEbekoauis 2.3 encoded message folow------
Kool, toé-too té du kaBec! C popire icitte, pis c chouette de jaser biologie. Au fette, ya tu des groupes d'usager Linux au Québec, ca fa un boutte que j'en charche un...
---------------------------------------------
Jérôme "Christ d'ostie" Marchand
Like I said, The frequency of the fastest (in frequency) nerves is about 200 to 300Hz. Which mean 300 up & down per second. So the bitrate is 300bit/sec (or 37.5bytes/second), with all the disadventages of keeping it alive, and the lag it cause due to is organic nature and the chemical way it works (explained in the previous comment).
--Jérôme Marchand
--Bid@NetRevolution.com
Yep, you CAN'T make a signal both way. A fibre, one way only. It must move from the dendrites to the terminals buttons (your cell have a "head" and "foot"). You can't reverse the signal.
---Jérôme "I hope I won't forget that at the exam!" Marchand
I'm currently attending some very specialized nerology classes (I'm a future surgeon!), and I got answers (not only suppositions).
.................\..../
Someone said before that a nerve is like an optic fiber, Wrong!
The nerve is a binary device: it can only transmit a voltage difference (wich is made by the K+/Na+ doors & pumps). At normal state, the nerve will have a -70mV potential. When it's excited up to -55mV, the rection of the doors is unstopable and the potential go up to -30mV. After, the nerve just repolarize itself to -55mV, goes into an Hyperpolarisation (-90mV), and come back to normal. Here's an ASCII graph to explain:
Voltage in fonction of time
........./--\ -Max polarisation (30mV)
......../....\
......./......\
.../--/........\ --/.............\....../-----
..................\--/ 0ms TIME 4ms 5ms
/-\=graph line
...=fillers
This whole process cannot be modulated: It's on or off, you can't mess with the voltage of the reaction. So the signal is binary: 1 or 0.
You'll see too that the time of the whole process, before it can be done again, is about 4ms, which mean low BitRate, and a lag of about 1-2ms minimum (before it reach the top of the curve).
The fastest nerves have a frequency of about 200Hz to 300Hz, wich mean that on a single fiber, you can only do 300bps MAX (remember those accoustic modems?)
The next problems with nerves as a data transport: they're slow. The fastest nerves can go at about 280mph (wich is only a little faster than a F-1). This mean that if you carry data over 130m of distance, you'll get a 1000ms lag!
Too: Your network will be limited to a 1 meter cable. The longest nerves (in the legs) are about 1 meter long, and if you plan putting some of them together, you add some lag time when they interact (about 2-4ms)
Other problem I see with nerves: they're alive. You need to feed them in nutriments, oxygen and oligoelements (most K/Na/Ca). This mean putting blood vessels along them. But you'll need the nevroglious cells!! For normal nerves, only Schwann cells are required, but you'll need to be sure they're in large number enough to produce the myelin gain. You'll need to feed them too.
The last one: nerves don't regenerate, and they don't reproduce. So, if you go to the top 300bps for too long, your cells might dies, and they'll nerver be replaced. The axon (the long tail) CAN regenerate, but it take time (some months). If one of the cells die, you can say good bye to your device (or replace THE faulty nerve, and hope that no others will die for the next hour).
All the numbers said here are optimals. You shouldn't dream of a 1meter long, 4msMin.Time, 300Hz, 280mph nerve, it won't happen. You can have one (or maybe two) of the optimals factor, but you'll be lucky. Don't even speculate numbers for the "Perfect nerve", it just isn't real.
Unless you want to imbed something into someone, mess with copper and optic, leave nerves to neurosurgeons and bioengineers.
---Jérôme "Future geek/surgeon multiclass" Marchand
PS: If you have ANY question related to what I said, or you think that something is wrong in my declarations, feel free to drop me an E-Mail at spamforbid@netrevolution.com ! I'll be happy to hear/reply!